451 réponses à ce sujet

[BerzerkGene]

Kind of, cooperation, unity and intelligence.
Cooperation happened, sure. Unity, ehh not so much, like 6 fleets don't show up if you get the maximum possible assets, as well as all the special units of soldiers. Intelligence? There wasn't any. Terrible tactics, relying on a device with a 0% success rate and disregarding any previously discovered technology that could have actually helped.
If these had all been abided by properly, it could have been done. However, instead you get, 'We can't beat the reapers because of reasons' and you lose in about 13 seconds.

[Dr_Extrem]

we should define "conventional" a little bit diffenred here ..

a face off artillery war with the reapers - fleet against fleet - is not conventional .. it is just highly asymmatrical. the reaper ships can be destroyed. sovereign was destroyed by a cruiser fleet - just cruisers not even dreadnoughts and sovereign was a really big reaper.

in theory, a conventional victory is possible, if you are able to isolate one reaper ... and even then, the losses could be very high. commando actions, to bring down a reaper from the inside, are also very unlikely, because of the forced indoctrination of the team.

why were all the former civilasations defeated?

the reapers started the war in a very different way ... before the actions of the prothean survivors mentioned by vigil, the reapers activated the citadel mass relay, using the keaper signal. by doing so, the chain of command was broken every time - the government was whiped out altogether with the military high command. a classic surprise attack, meant to "cut of the snakes head". in addition, the major fleets were destroyed every time. resistance was very slim after that. this strategy does not work anymore.

i was hoping for a different aproach of the situation as well. superweapons are kind of cheap - especially, if those plans and parts survive every damn reaper attack, wich is meant do salvage biological AND technological material.

building a bigger hammer is the simplest and unsubtile idea to solve such a problem.


i think, that a asymetrical-conventional victory is possible but it takes time, strategy and planning.

[liggy002]

nopantsisabela wrote...

I just got on BSN for the first time in months and happened to see some thread debating if conventional victory should have been possible or not. This reminded me of one reason that I was so confused by the ME3 ending: was anyone else expecting the whole theme of cooperation to be the ultimate reason why "this time" the Reapers could be beaten? 

In my opinion, the "if we work together, we can do anything!" theme was a pretty heavy one all throughout ME1 and 2 and then during the Thessia mission in ME3 the VI pretty much tells you that this cycle's sentient races are much more unified and therin might lie your salvation.

I totally expected this to be the reason for your victory over the Reapers, and it seemed really fitting. In order for conventional victory to be possible, this cycle would have to have something that other cycles didn't, and ultimately, the reason for this cycle being so unified is Shepard (who's been the main instigator of all the cooperative activity between the different races).

Just curious if anyone else had felt similarly about this.

A conventional victory would have made the most sense, contrary to what Bioware and others on here might tell you.  Don't let them convince you otherwise.  The fact is that Vigil himself mentioned in ME1 that the Reapers were cutting off star systems so that they couldn't unite against the Reapers.

Modifié par liggy002, 05 octobre 2012 - 09:33 .

[Armass81]

If cooperation was to succeed against the reapers, the council should have heeded the warnings during after sovereigns attack. Even then I think it would have been too late, as the reapers are simply tool powerful and numerous, maybe with tens of thousands of years preparing conventional victory couls have been possible.

[liggy002]

Bill Casey wrote...

Synthesis is a story that belongs in care bears...
You use a laser beam to make everyone get along...
It also has the same disturbing implications as care bears...

I don't have a problem with everyone getting along, in fact I think that this is the problem with this world, not enough people get along.  However, forcing genetic material on everyone in the galaxy, that I do have a problem with.

[liggy002]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dr.Freeman wrote...

What else should I have expected ?
Bring the galaxy together, kick the reaper's asses and then focus on the characters. It's a videogame, I expected the same fun I had with ME1 and ME2... oh wait that would have been too videogamey.

The too video gamey comment was about a last boss.

Yeah, and that was a dumb comment.  End bosses are NOT TOO VIDEOGAMEY.   It's my opinion that end bosses enhance the thrill and experience of video games.

[zioninzion]

nopantsisabela wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

And what you can do in ME3 is nothing but pulling off the impossible: curing the genophage, make a truce between the geth and the quarians (giving back their homeworld), uniting the galaxy against the reapers, collecting intel and assets for a secret project which aims to stop the reapers, you find the ancient reaper race and survive facing them, you manage to destroy Cerberus, the syndicate which had almost as much political pull, intelligence and resources as the Alliance... and in the end you manage to stop the reapers. 

The Catalyst is the f.ing reaper overmind, reaper super computer, their commom conscious and ideas, the idea behind them, their creator. It's a revelation, not a deus ex machina as so many put it here (they should check out what a deus ex machina is). It's darkest and most well kept secret of the galaxy, and you face it. I just don't get it why people hate it so much. 

Maybe it's just that most people who are against the ending want a victorious happy ending with a huge party and all and love interests all over the place. I don't know... to me Mass Effect was never about these love stories and gimmick hero flick cliches (the trilogy has too many of them already). 

I'm confused... how is the Catalyst not a deus ex machina?? It's the exact definition.

Also, I'm sick of hearing the retort that everyone who dislikes the ending is just a poor sap that can't handle an angsty story. I love my Shepard, but I'd rather she'd just died a good death than have to be degraded into securing a victory through picking some random option offered by an enemy who just suddenly decides he's not going to straight up kill you after all. In fact, I think I'd rather the game just ended with the Reapers winning, and you seeing scenes of the next cycle beginning to mature. To me, the Catalyst is the cop-out, written in to save the day and give us all a victory without needing to do any of the intellectual legwork to actually think out a properly constructed conclusion.

I think most of us "complainers" are just honest to God confused about where the story ran off to, not sad 'cause we didn't get an ending where we could make out with an LI on top of a defeated Reaper and then have a giant dance party.

You could not have said this any better! Just because we disagree with space magic as an ending and know introducing a new central character in the last ten minutes is not good story telling doesn't mean we want a care bear ending. Id be happy is Shepard took the ultimate sacrifice but lets make it one for the ages. Not choosing red blue or green. It felt more like he was on The Price is Right than engaging in a galactic final showdown.

[zioninzion]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

we should define "conventional" a little bit diffenred here ..

a face off artillery war with the reapers - fleet against fleet - is not conventional .. it is just highly asymmatrical. the reaper ships can be destroyed. sovereign was destroyed by a cruiser fleet - just cruisers not even dreadnoughts and sovereign was a really big reaper.

in theory, a conventional victory is possible, if you are able to isolate one reaper ... and even then, the losses could be very high. commando actions, to bring down a reaper from the inside, are also very unlikely, because of the forced indoctrination of the team.

why were all the former civilasations defeated?

the reapers started the war in a very different way ... before the actions of the prothean survivors mentioned by vigil, the reapers activated the citadel mass relay, using the keaper signal. by doing so, the chain of command was broken every time - the government was whiped out altogether with the military high command. a classic surprise attack, meant to "cut of the snakes head". in addition, the major fleets were destroyed every time. resistance was very slim after that. this strategy does not work anymore.

i was hoping for a different aproach of the situation as well. superweapons are kind of cheap - especially, if those plans and parts survive every damn reaper attack, wich is meant do salvage biological AND technological material.

building a bigger hammer is the simplest and unsubtile idea to solve such a problem.


i think, that a asymetrical-conventional victory is possible but it takes time, strategy and planning.

Thank you. Asymmetrical guerrilla warfare. If you replaced Reapers with a country of overwhelming military strength and a smaller much less sophisticated (military) group, that group would never engage in battlefield tactics. They would breakdown into guerrilla formations, attack supply lines (its implictly stated the Reapers do not have infinite supplies), create confusion among forces.

I understand its not a perfect metaphor but anyone who has read T.E. Lawrence and how to mobilize much weaker and much smaller forces (if you can call them forces) to take down a large enemy can understand this.

Or for the military enthuisasts out there, there is "On War" by Carl Von Clausewitz. This is probably the most important military strategy book in human history. Attack the "center of gravity". I completely believe that smart guerrilla military tactics could defeat the Reapers.

[nopantsisabela]

AlanC9 wrote...

nopantsisabela wrote...
I'm confused... how is the Catalyst not a deus ex machina?? It's the exact definition.

Not really. A deus ex machina solves an insoluble problem. The Catalyst makes a problem that appears to be already solved worse. Until he shows up the Crucible appears to be (hopefully) a Reaper Off Switch (although Bio foreshadowed the hell out of it not being that simple). Unless Shepard really likes Control or Synthesis, the Catalyst isn't solving anything.

More like a Diabolus ex Machina.

In fact, I think I'd rather the game just ended with the Reapers winning, and you seeing scenes of the next cycle beginning to mature.

Reapers winning? You've got it.

The use of deus ex machina in a story does not preclude an unhappy outcome. "Diabolus ex machina" is deus ex machina, and is not a real literary term in and of itself. Note how you had to post a link from TV Tropes in order to define it. That's usually not a good sign. Regardless, if you want to call the Catalyst a "diabolus ex machina," fine. We're saying the same thing then.

And when I said I'd rather the galaxy just lost and we all died, I meant lost because we actually got beaten by the Reapers (with no mention of the Catalyst). This would have allowed the game to end without the use of a lazy plot device.

[dreman9999]

liggy002 wrote...

nopantsisabela wrote...

I just got on BSN for the first time in months and happened to see some thread debating if conventional victory should have been possible or not. This reminded me of one reason that I was so confused by the ME3 ending: was anyone else expecting the whole theme of cooperation to be the ultimate reason why "this time" the Reapers could be beaten? 

In my opinion, the "if we work together, we can do anything!" theme was a pretty heavy one all throughout ME1 and 2 and then during the Thessia mission in ME3 the VI pretty much tells you that this cycle's sentient races are much more unified and therin might lie your salvation.

I totally expected this to be the reason for your victory over the Reapers, and it seemed really fitting. In order for conventional victory to be possible, this cycle would have to have something that other cycles didn't, and ultimately, the reason for this cycle being so unified is Shepard (who's been the main instigator of all the cooperative activity between the different races).

Just curious if anyone else had felt similarly about this.

A conventional victory would have made the most sense, contrary to what Bioware and others on here might tell you.  Don't let them convince you otherwise.  The fact is that Vigil himself mentioned in ME1 that the Reapers were cutting off star systems so that they couldn't unite against the Reapers.

What in ME1 and ME2 show that conventional victory is possible? The first reaper ship you saw took on a fleet and had to be stunned to kill.
And we found out a fleet, the dwarfs every fleet in the galexy combined, is coming that is made up of ships like that....
How can you say conventional victory is possible knowning that.

[dreman9999]

zioninzion wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

we should define "conventional" a little bit diffenred here ..

a face off artillery war with the reapers - fleet against fleet - is not conventional .. it is just highly asymmatrical. the reaper ships can be destroyed. sovereign was destroyed by a cruiser fleet - just cruisers not even dreadnoughts and sovereign was a really big reaper.

in theory, a conventional victory is possible, if you are able to isolate one reaper ... and even then, the losses could be very high. commando actions, to bring down a reaper from the inside, are also very unlikely, because of the forced indoctrination of the team.

why were all the former civilasations defeated?

the reapers started the war in a very different way ... before the actions of the prothean survivors mentioned by vigil, the reapers activated the citadel mass relay, using the keaper signal. by doing so, the chain of command was broken every time - the government was whiped out altogether with the military high command. a classic surprise attack, meant to "cut of the snakes head". in addition, the major fleets were destroyed every time. resistance was very slim after that. this strategy does not work anymore.

i was hoping for a different aproach of the situation as well. superweapons are kind of cheap - especially, if those plans and parts survive every damn reaper attack, wich is meant do salvage biological AND technological material.

building a bigger hammer is the simplest and unsubtile idea to solve such a problem.


i think, that a asymetrical-conventional victory is possible but it takes time, strategy and planning.

Thank you. Asymmetrical guerrilla warfare. If you replaced Reapers with a country of overwhelming military strength and a smaller much less sophisticated (military) group, that group would never engage in battlefield tactics. They would breakdown into guerrilla formations, attack supply lines (its implictly stated the Reapers do not have infinite supplies), create confusion among forces.

I understand its not a perfect metaphor but anyone who has read T.E. Lawrence and how to mobilize much weaker and much smaller forces (if you can call them forces) to take down a large enemy can understand this.

Or for the military enthuisasts out there, there is "On War" by Carl Von Clausewitz. This is probably the most important military strategy book in human history. Attack the "center of gravity". I completely believe that smart guerrilla military tactics could defeat the Reapers.

You problem here is the allied force are already doing that and losing.  Guerrilla military tactics only work if the forceyou facing has a limit on recources. The tactic for guerrilla military tactics, is to defeat the enemy with small cuts so they die by slowly bleeding out as a force. The problem her is the reapers have no blood as a force.

hey need no resources nor can be held back. They have massive numbers for ships, they have swarms of fighter drones, and they can make endless ammount of husk shock forces. Any guerrilla military tactics would fail because the battles we win would be  pyrrhic  while the reapers would not lose much because of there numbers.

[cyrexwingblade]

I won't lie, I like happy/fluffy/care bear endings. Where the hero lives.

Ignoring that, since the three endings basically give us different versions of an 'off switch' for the Reapers, I just wanted one option to be 'yes, just the Reapers. Off now. Thank you. Joker, pick me up, I'm buying the first round for the crew, but you cheap bastards better cover me on the next. And we need to toast Anderson. A lot. For London and junk."

[darthoptimus003]

yes
that was the whole point
get everyone together for a united front
then kick the crap out of the reapers and send them cryin to there mommys

[Urdnot Amenark]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

To clarify: although all the races do come together to build the Crucible, and the Crucible is ultimately the collective work of many dead civilizations, it would have been really narrative-breaking for me if the Reapers could be defeated conventionally by "Teamwork."

Well the Crucible is an example of one of the most overused science fiction tropes, and that's far more safe than a conventional victory would've been. I think you're oversimplifying how complex and involving the narrative could've become if we got to see the different races and factions contributing in their own unique ways, especially if the Geth and Rachni had been used to their full potential, which we don't really see any of. That would've given a much greater sense of the scale of the Reaper War than planet scanning for war assets ever did. 

[dreman9999]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

yes
that was the whole point
get everyone together for a united front
then kick the crap out of the reapers and send them cryin to there mommys

Hacket told you togather forcesto deliver the crucible. Not to beat them conventionally. Nothing in the this game, or the past games show that is possible.

[dreman9999]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

To clarify: although all the races do come together to build the Crucible, and the Crucible is ultimately the collective work of many dead civilizations, it would have been really narrative-breaking for me if the Reapers could be defeated conventionally by "Teamwork."

Well the Crucible is an example of one of the most overused science fiction tropes, and that's far more safe than a conventional victory would've been. I think you're oversimplifying how complex and involving the narrative could've become if we got to see the different races and factions contributing in their own unique ways, especially if the Geth and Rachni had been used to their full potential, which we don't really see any of. That would've given a much greater sense of the scale of the Reaper War than planet scanning for war assets ever did. 

The thing your missing dispite would the other races can't do they can't endure with the reaper numbers and fire power in any way. It not just capital ship we are fight. It's destroys, husk forces,and  Oculus drones. Added that the reaper are destroying our resources. Any tactic we use to take down a reaper is a suicide mission, and we loose vastly more units in any form of tactic then the reapers would.

Tactic  and gorrila warfair can hold them back...But  not beat them.

[Dr_Extrem]

vigil stated, that the reaper are using surprise attacks, to overwhelm the command structure of the current civilisations (citadel). they take control over the relay network, to track down fleets. they always fought the war on their own terms - just like the salarians do.

even if the strategy works (prothean cycle), it takes centuries to whipe out every settlement. in that time, reapers are not being rebuild - drones yes, husks maybe but not even one reaper.

even reaper have limited energy. they don't hide in dark space because they like the near absolute zero temperature and the lack of photons. they hide, because they are vulnerable in times of hibernation. why are they in hibernation? - to conserve energy. mass effect fields of their strength need lots of juice. this juice has to be produced.


all in all ... a conventional victory is very, very, very difficult to achieve but not entirely impossible under the conditions of this cycle.

the cruicible is just a lame superweapon ... its sad but true .. i had hoped for a bit more subtile aproach ... a weapon that does not "fix" the reaper problem outright and ultimatly, but evens the odds or weakens the reapers to a point, where a conventional victory it very possible.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 05 octobre 2012 - 06:07 .

[AlanC9]

zioninzion wrote...
Thank you. Asymmetrical guerrilla warfare. If you replaced Reapers with a country of overwhelming military strength and a smaller much less sophisticated (military) group, that group would never engage in battlefield tactics. They would breakdown into guerrilla formations, attack supply lines (its implictly stated the Reapers do not have infinite supplies), create confusion among forces.

Where? They don't need fuel; that's explicitly stated. At least, they don't ever stop for any. Maybe every century or so they need to refuel. Maybe they just run on vacuum energy.

Remember, Vigil was just wrong about the reason for Reaper inactivity between cycles.

Or for the military enthuisasts out there, there is "On War" by Carl Von Clausewitz. This is probably the most important military strategy book in human history. Attack the "center of gravity". I completely believe that smart guerrilla military tactics could defeat the Reapers.

That's the problem -- the Reapers don't have a center of gravity to attack. The Citadel races have their planets.

If anything, guerilla tactics would be something the Reapers could practice on the Citadel races. They have more mobility, and no bases they need to defend (pre-Crucible). The Reapers could outmaneuver Citadel forces in space and keep bombing plnets from orbit until the galactic economy, and therefor the Citadel fleets, collapses.

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 octobre 2012 - 06:19 .

[darthoptimus003]

dreman9999 wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

yes
that was the whole point
get everyone together for a united front
then kick the crap out of the reapers and send them cryin to there mommys

Hacket told you togather forcesto deliver the crucible. Not to beat them conventionally. Nothing in the this game, or the past games show that is possible.

then play them agian to see that it was done several times in fact
so yeah i seen a victory conventially or not dont care really how its done
as long as i dont comit genocide or listen to the BS that starbrat spews
and that i get that win that i did infact pay to see

[Cainne Chapel]

Yeah guerilla tactics dont really work on a force that not only has tech superiority, but better range, sensors, shields, no supply lines and an "unlimited source" of shock troops.

If anything we'd barely make a dent on them, as all they have to do is take out OUR supply lines and watch us slowly bleed to death. Especially whent hey're ships can one shot ours.

Dont forget its not like we have 100s of dradnaughts to bring to the fore, and even then their capital ships far outweigh our numbers in terms of power and strength.

Conventional victory, even through cooperation was probably never gonna happen, Remember Humans and Turians have the strongest fleets, and even those got cut through like a hot knife through butter by the reapers

[darthoptimus003]

dreman9999 wrote...

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

To clarify: although all the races do come together to build the Crucible, and the Crucible is ultimately the collective work of many dead civilizations, it would have been really narrative-breaking for me if the Reapers could be defeated conventionally by "Teamwork."

Well the Crucible is an example of one of the most overused science fiction tropes, and that's far more safe than a conventional victory would've been. I think you're oversimplifying how complex and involving the narrative could've become if we got to see the different races and factions contributing in their own unique ways, especially if the Geth and Rachni had been used to their full potential, which we don't really see any of. That would've given a much greater sense of the scale of the Reaper War than planet scanning for war assets ever did. 

The thing your missing dispite would the other races can't do they can't endure with the reaper numbers and fire power in any way. It not just capital ship we are fight. It's destroys, husk forces,and  Oculus drones. Added that the reaper are destroying our resources. Any tactic we use to take down a reaper is a suicide mission, and we loose vastly more units in any form of tactic then the reapers would.

Tactic  and gorrila warfair can hold them back...But  not beat them.

and thats another thing the reapers shouldnt have been able to beat us so readily given that it states in the game that the only reason the were able to beat the protheains is that the shut down the relay network isolating the protheians we dont have that here do we NO and javik even said we could win because we were vastly diffrent with diffrent ways to fight yeah we can win be it with heavy losses
that is what i thought i was paying for
not the crap we have now (ec included)

[Cainne Chapel]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

yes
that was the whole point
get everyone together for a united front
then kick the crap out of the reapers and send them cryin to there mommys

Hacket told you togather forcesto deliver the crucible. Not to beat them conventionally. Nothing in the this game, or the past games show that is possible.

then play them agian to see that it was done several times in fact
so yeah i seen a victory conventially or not dont care really how its done
as long as i dont comit genocide or listen to the BS that starbrat spews
and that i get that win that i did infact pay to see

Ok Darth, enlighten me, what in any of the past games has shown that we can take on an ARMADA of reapers and their forces?  and as for genocide, what conventional victory do yout hink we can attain without near cataclysm levels of damage to any of the species involved?

We are after all talking about giant space cthulhus whose main goal is in fact genocide of all advanced species.

and yes they beat the protheans through subterfuge and tactics, doesnt mean that they cant kick ass in a straight up fight...after all sovy was doing just that.

They are not invincible true, but they are also more powerfult han anything we can individually bring to bear against them.

Modifié par Cainne Chapel, 05 octobre 2012 - 06:21 .

[darthoptimus003]

read the codex it has stated several instinces of us takin out reaper forces and its shown us that the reapers arnt invincible
and like i said dont care how we win as long as i dont commit mass genocide in the process and listen to the reapers leader which is complete BS
i played to win i didnt get this
so i pretty much payed for a 30+ hr game over yeah no
and sovvy had the geth remember he wasnt alone he used them as fodder

Modifié par darthoptimus003, 05 octobre 2012 - 06:29 .

[darthoptimus003]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

vigil stated, that the reaper are using surprise attacks, to overwhelm the command structure of the current civilisations (citadel). they take control over the relay network, to track down fleets. they always fought the war on their own terms - just like the salarians do.

even if the strategy works (prothean cycle), it takes centuries to whipe out every settlement. in that time, reapers are not being rebuild - drones yes, husks maybe but not even one reaper.

even reaper have limited energy. they don't hide in dark space because they like the near absolute zero temperature and the lack of photons. they hide, because they are vulnerable in times of hibernation. why are they in hibernation? - to conserve energy. mass effect fields of their strength need lots of juice. this juice has to be produced.


all in all ... a conventional victory is very, very, very difficult to achieve but not entirely impossible under the conditions of this cycle.

the cruicible is just a lame superweapon ... its sad but true .. i had hoped for a bit more subtile aproach ... a weapon that does not "fix" the reaper problem outright and ultimatly, but evens the odds or weakens the reapers to a point, where a conventional victory it very possible.

this is what should have been very thoughtful

[Cainne Chapel]

Darth, yes we've beaten a few reapers here and there.

But beating a few does not equate to winning a war. A battle can be won, doesnt mean you won the war and for all intents and purposes its hard to mount a counterattack against a foe who hits your galactic centers in its very first blitz.

Personally i expected a super weapon to come into play after ME2 failed to produce any strong force for taking on an oncoming armada of hundreds of reapers.

and you ONLY played the ME sries to "win"? Seems kidna short sighted dont ya think? You didnt enjoy your playthroughs at all? you only played to say at the end "Whew I won!". I guess I just never had the illusion that shep was gonna win outside of a superweapon *shrug*

and yes Sovy had the Geth and still decimated the citadel fleet, and only lost due to plot shields failing. Now imagine how well sovy would do if he even had 3 other reapers. Safe to say who would of stomped the citadel fleet and we'd all be Reaper goo at this point.

Also you have to remember the Reapers have had BILLIONS of years to shore up their numbers AND they have superior tech to ours, very few exploitable weaknesses AND turn our dead and living against us through indoctrination.

I'm actually more surprised we held up as a galaxy as long as we did