451 réponses à ce sujet

[darthoptimus003]

CC yeah i enjoyed my playthrus then i reached the end and was like wtf? so now i cant even replay the series because there is no way to win. id didnt invest this much time and money for this crap sorry and yes im still sayin it can be done with let me repete WITH heavy loss that was what i was expecting.
but we got pick a color or choose the middle finger
now if all these dlcs lead to an outcome that isnt so deplorable ill be one of the first to call them literary gods but until then ill stay mad at the socalled artsy endings
oh and thanks for the chit chat its was fun to talk to a fellow fan but now i got to head to the work place have a good day

[Dr_Extrem]

and that brings me to another thread, where a bsn member points out, that the reaper in me3 are far more powerful, then they where meant to be in the first 2 games.

the me3 plot is not as good as it should be (in this matter).

superweapons are always lame - doesn't matter in wich universe they apear. they give you the ultimatestest solution, for the ultimatest threat.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 05 octobre 2012 - 07:02 .

[Urdnot Amenark]

dreman9999 wrote...

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

To clarify: although all the races do come together to build the Crucible, and the Crucible is ultimately the collective work of many dead civilizations, it would have been really narrative-breaking for me if the Reapers could be defeated conventionally by "Teamwork."

Well the Crucible is an example of one of the most overused science fiction tropes, and that's far more safe than a conventional victory would've been. I think you're oversimplifying how complex and involving the narrative could've become if we got to see the different races and factions contributing in their own unique ways, especially if the Geth and Rachni had been used to their full potential, which we don't really see any of. That would've given a much greater sense of the scale of the Reaper War than planet scanning for war assets ever did. 

The thing your missing dispite would the other races can't do they can't endure with the reaper numbers and fire power in any way. It not just capital ship we are fight. It's destroys, husk forces,and  Oculus drones. Added that the reaper are destroying our resources. Any tactic we use to take down a reaper is a suicide mission, and we loose vastly more units in any form of tactic then the reapers would.

Tactic  and gorrila warfair can hold them back...But  not beat them.

Dude, my comment has nothing to do with an argument for conventional warfare, but I'll humor you. While our resouces are limited it would still take decades if not centuries for them to be entirely depleted, unless you're taking the five to ten or so probes we can send out in planet scanning seriously. Secondly, you seem to have forgotten that we have Advanced AI - not to mention Geth fully equipped with Reaper processing powers - we could use to pilot ships that need to get closer, and we have the strongest advantage against Reaper forces when they're not in space, not to mention incredible manufacturing power. There's also plenty of methodologies we can use other than guerilla warfare, which wouldn't apply to us since attrition against the Reapers isn't possible.

But on another note, I agree that victory by conventional warfare would be an unlikely outcome if the Citadel remained in their control. Seize that and handle the Catalyst and we have a fight that definitely will be in our favor to win.

[Urdnot Amenark]

zioninzion wrote...

nopantsisabela wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

And what you can do in ME3 is nothing but pulling off the impossible: curing the genophage, make a truce between the geth and the quarians (giving back their homeworld), uniting the galaxy against the reapers, collecting intel and assets for a secret project which aims to stop the reapers, you find the ancient reaper race and survive facing them, you manage to destroy Cerberus, the syndicate which had almost as much political pull, intelligence and resources as the Alliance... and in the end you manage to stop the reapers. 

The Catalyst is the f.ing reaper overmind, reaper super computer, their commom conscious and ideas, the idea behind them, their creator. It's a revelation, not a deus ex machina as so many put it here (they should check out what a deus ex machina is). It's darkest and most well kept secret of the galaxy, and you face it. I just don't get it why people hate it so much. 

Maybe it's just that most people who are against the ending want a victorious happy ending with a huge party and all and love interests all over the place. I don't know... to me Mass Effect was never about these love stories and gimmick hero flick cliches (the trilogy has too many of them already). 

I'm confused... how is the Catalyst not a deus ex machina?? It's the exact definition.

Also, I'm sick of hearing the retort that everyone who dislikes the ending is just a poor sap that can't handle an angsty story. I love my Shepard, but I'd rather she'd just died a good death than have to be degraded into securing a victory through picking some random option offered by an enemy who just suddenly decides he's not going to straight up kill you after all. In fact, I think I'd rather the game just ended with the Reapers winning, and you seeing scenes of the next cycle beginning to mature. To me, the Catalyst is the cop-out, written in to save the day and give us all a victory without needing to do any of the intellectual legwork to actually think out a properly constructed conclusion.

I think most of us "complainers" are just honest to God confused about where the story ran off to, not sad 'cause we didn't get an ending where we could make out with an LI on top of a defeated Reaper and then have a giant dance party.

You could not have said this any better! Just because we disagree with space magic as an ending and know introducing a new central character in the last ten minutes is not good story telling doesn't mean we want a care bear ending. Id be happy is Shepard took the ultimate sacrifice but lets make it one for the ages. Not choosing red blue or green. It felt more like he was on The Price is Right than engaging in a galactic final showdown.

The Catalyst is not a deus ex machina since it's been alluded to since the very beginning of the game when mention of the Crucible was first revealed and is clearly pointed out as a component necessary to defeat the Reapers. It's a MacGuffin. What its actual nature is has no bearing on it.

[Cainne Chapel]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and that brings me to another thread, where a bsn member points out, that the reaper in me3 are far more powerful, then they where meant to be in the first 2 games.

the me3 plot is not as good as it should be (in this matter).

superweapons are always lame - doesn't matter in wich universe they apear. they give you the ultimatestest solution, for the ultimatest threat.

That is entirely untrue.

Sovy was powerful, Hell the collectors were powerful

All ME3 did is add to their numbers, not their power.

Unless we played a different ME1 where Sovreign wasnt one of the most powerful ships in the universe and capable of taking on a fleet by itself until its shields magically dropped due to its link to saren.

Show me where the Reapers were ever introduced as "weak".

[Urdnot Amenark]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and that brings me to another thread, where a bsn member points out, that the reaper in me3 are far more powerful, then they where meant to be in the first 2 games.

the me3 plot is not as good as it should be (in this matter).

superweapons are always lame - doesn't matter in wich universe they apear. they give you the ultimatestest solution, for the ultimatest threat.

That is entirely untrue.

Sovy was powerful, Hell the collectors were powerful

All ME3 did is add to their numbers, not their power.

Unless we played a different ME1 where Sovreign wasnt one of the most powerful ships in the universe and capable of taking on a fleet by itself until its shields magically dropped due to its link to saren.

Show me where the Reapers were ever introduced as "weak".

A worm took out a Destroyer. That's pretty weak.

EDIT: If I remember correctly, after the shields were dropped all it took was a shot from the Normandy to destroy it. That's definitely weak.

Modifié par Urdnot Amenark, 05 octobre 2012 - 07:24 .

[Cainne Chapel]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

CC yeah i enjoyed my playthrus then i reached the end and was like wtf? so now i cant even replay the series because there is no way to win. id didnt invest this much time and money for this crap sorry and yes im still sayin it can be done with let me repete WITH heavy loss that was what i was expecting.
but we got pick a color or choose the middle finger
now if all these dlcs lead to an outcome that isnt so deplorable ill be one of the first to call them literary gods but until then ill stay mad at the socalled artsy endings
oh and thanks for the chit chat its was fun to talk to a fellow fan but now i got to head to the work place have a good day

Thats the thing though, most endings in ME games all come down to a certain decision at the end and essentially pick your cutscene (though most often they're nearly identical, case in point ME2).

But I can understand wanting a conventional victory, I guess personally I just never saw it as possible with the way ME1 and ME2 played out, leaving EVERYTHING to be found and resolved in ME3.

Personally I almost think they should of made it a 4 parter instead of a 3 parter.  use ME3 to explain the beginning of the war to the mid point, and ME4 to explain the final push, etc etc.

That way they could of showed a LOT more of the build up and aftermath of reaper attacks and so forth.

[Cainne Chapel]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and that brings me to another thread, where a bsn member points out, that the reaper in me3 are far more powerful, then they where meant to be in the first 2 games.

the me3 plot is not as good as it should be (in this matter).

superweapons are always lame - doesn't matter in wich universe they apear. they give you the ultimatestest solution, for the ultimatest threat.

That is entirely untrue.

Sovy was powerful, Hell the collectors were powerful

All ME3 did is add to their numbers, not their power.

Unless we played a different ME1 where Sovreign wasnt one of the most powerful ships in the universe and capable of taking on a fleet by itself until its shields magically dropped due to its link to saren.

Show me where the Reapers were ever introduced as "weak".

A worm took out a Destroyer. That's pretty weak.

EDIT: If I remember correctly, after the shields were dropped all it took was a shot from the Normandy to destroy it. That's definitely weak.

Yeah a giant massive mother of all dune worms took out a destroyer, seems like a pretty isolated incident honestly...unless we get kalros cannons to fire at all Destroyers

and yes sovy was taken out with one shot, AFTER its shields were dropped, thats the crux of the issue, his shields were deflecting damn near everything before that.

So your answer to my question is basically we need to have all Reapers drop their shields and we'd be good?  I agree we WOULD have a better chance if they had NO defenses...but the problem is just that... getting through their defenses

[JBPBRC]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and that brings me to another thread, where a bsn member points out, that the reaper in me3 are far more powerful, then they where meant to be in the first 2 games.

the me3 plot is not as good as it should be (in this matter).

superweapons are always lame - doesn't matter in wich universe they apear. they give you the ultimatestest solution, for the ultimatest threat.

That is entirely untrue.

Sovy was powerful, Hell the collectors were powerful

All ME3 did is add to their numbers, not their power.

Unless we played a different ME1 where Sovreign wasnt one of the most powerful ships in the universe and capable of taking on a fleet by itself until its shields magically dropped due to its link to saren.

Show me where the Reapers were ever introduced as "weak".

This is one of the biggest misconceptions about ME1.

Sovereign can't take on a fleet by himself, in fact, he was so scared of the prospect of taking on the Citadel Defense Fleet on his own that he used Saren's reputation to trick the Council into dispersing the fleet to several mass relays, rounded up a sizable Geth Heretic fleet to go in first and soften them up before bumrushing the Citadel, while simultaneously having Saren and who knows how many squads of Geth platforms and Krogan mercenaries attack on the inside.

Sovereign is formidable, but not that formidable.

Modifié par JBPBRC, 05 octobre 2012 - 07:30 .

[Urdnot Amenark]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and that brings me to another thread, where a bsn member points out, that the reaper in me3 are far more powerful, then they where meant to be in the first 2 games.

the me3 plot is not as good as it should be (in this matter).

superweapons are always lame - doesn't matter in wich universe they apear. they give you the ultimatestest solution, for the ultimatest threat.

That is entirely untrue.

Sovy was powerful, Hell the collectors were powerful

All ME3 did is add to their numbers, not their power.

Unless we played a different ME1 where Sovreign wasnt one of the most powerful ships in the universe and capable of taking on a fleet by itself until its shields magically dropped due to its link to saren.

Show me where the Reapers were ever introduced as "weak".

A worm took out a Destroyer. That's pretty weak.

EDIT: If I remember correctly, after the shields were dropped all it took was a shot from the Normandy to destroy it. That's definitely weak.

Yeah a giant massive mother of all dune worms took out a destroyer, seems like a pretty isolated incident honestly...unless we get kalros cannons to fire at all Destroyers

and yes sovy was taken out with one shot, AFTER its shields were dropped, thats the crux of the issue, his shields were deflecting damn near everything before that.

So your answer to my question is basically we need to have all Reapers drop their shields and we'd be good?  I agree we WOULD have a better chance if they had NO defenses...but the problem is just that... getting through their defenses.

We have weapons that can ignore shields. The problem of course is getting close enough to use them, but I think with the right AI we can easily mimimize the loss of casualties. I bet if the Leviathans gave us intel alot of these problems could be solved much easier than we'd suspect.

[Dr_Extrem]

i am refering to another thread - that is all. so please holster your gun.

the moment sovs shields went off, it was toast and the human fleet was made up of old cruisers with relativly low firepower.

in the first game, vigil stated that the reaper are using intermediates - agents as a driving force for a reason. even sovi is not powerfull enough, to do it (retaking the citadel) alone.

the collector vessel who cracked the old normandy open (hell i miss that ships design!) was powerful but not unbeatable. frigates are scout vessels, with very limited firepower - (that can be read in the codex) the collector vessel had the size of a cruiser - and a corresponding energy source.

sure the reapers are extremely powerful and i think you are, all thing considered, not wrong with your predictions for the outcome of a conventional war - but .. neither am i if you take the history of the protheans and the other games into consideration.

they needed an all powerful uber race for the 3rd game. lame but true.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 05 octobre 2012 - 07:35 .

[Henioo]

No, I just wanted to stumble across a big-ass plot device and just destroy all Reapers with one button.

[Fixers0]

 I was expecting conventional forces to play a crucial role within the Conclusion of the third with some applied phlebotinum in the form of reverese engineered "core" Reaper Tech (Which basically allready has been done in ME2), among some other things (Sabotaging Reapers from inside out).

[silentassassin264]

PhoenixUK wrote...

A

silentassassin264 wrote...

No. The Protheans had a entire galaxy working together through cooperation from the beginning and failed.

not cooperation. THe protheans were imperialists who conquered other races. Javik shows a lot of surprise that different species work together under the Citadel, and comments that our diversity in this cycle gives us strength which his cycle lacked as it was lost in the drive to force everyone into conformity under Prothean rule.

Willing cooperation and compulsory cooperation is still cooperation.  The Protheans already had a united galaxy when the Reapers hit and they stayed united (minus the indoctrinated of course) throughout the war.  They still lost.  And Javik's comments about diversity were stupid.  When everyone united, guess what?  They only used human tactics.  The Reapers still only had to worry about one set of tactics which was the same thing as in his cycle.  

[The Spamming Troll]

Reapers shields = me3 being a bad game

Fact.

[Dr_Extrem]

Henioo wrote...

No, I just wanted to stumble across a big-ass plot device and just destroy all Reapers with one button.

yo bra .. your plot device is so big, you'll miss all three parts oth "the lord of the rings" if it passes your tv screen.

sorry .. could not resist.


in fact .. gandalf in "the lord of the rings" acts as a plot tool on several occasions.

- HE discovers the true nature of the one ring
- HE saves the fellowship in the mines of moria and dies
- HE "returnes from the dead" to save several protagonists
- HE leads the charge of the riders of rohan
- HE let pippin ignite the bonfires of gondor

... only a small selection


writers do such things whenever they write themselves (or more precisely the protagonists) into a corner, surrounded by deadly enemys that leaves no way out. the shining tool appears to save the day .. in our case gandalf or the cruicible. the cruicible is a very blunt example for a plot tool tho.


on topic:

according to me1+2 a conventional victory in not impossible, given the right preconditions. me3 craps on the first 2 games and makes this kind of victory nearly impossible.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 05 octobre 2012 - 08:09 .

[Cainne Chapel]

JBPBRC wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and that brings me to another thread, where a bsn member points out, that the reaper in me3 are far more powerful, then they where meant to be in the first 2 games.

the me3 plot is not as good as it should be (in this matter).

superweapons are always lame - doesn't matter in wich universe they apear. they give you the ultimatestest solution, for the ultimatest threat.

That is entirely untrue.

Sovy was powerful, Hell the collectors were powerful

All ME3 did is add to their numbers, not their power.

Unless we played a different ME1 where Sovreign wasnt one of the most powerful ships in the universe and capable of taking on a fleet by itself until its shields magically dropped due to its link to saren.

Show me where the Reapers were ever introduced as "weak".

This is one of the biggest misconceptions about ME1.

Sovereign can't take on a fleet by himself, in fact, he was so scared of the prospect of taking on the Citadel Defense Fleet on his own that he used Saren's reputation to trick the Council into dispersing the fleet to several mass relays, rounded up a sizable Geth Heretic fleet to go in first and soften them up before bumrushing the Citadel, while simultaneously having Saren and who knows how many squads of Geth platforms and Krogan mercenaries attack on the inside.

Sovereign is formidable, but not that formidable.

As I said he is not invincible, i never said he was. 

But as a whole, individually the reapers ARE stronger than anything we can bring against them one on one, If they weren't they wouldnt be much of a galaxy spanning threat.

Yes he used stealth tactics and tried to minimize his exposure and got help to do so.  If anything that makes them an even more insidious threat when you think about it, as not only are they stronger one on one than a majority of our ships (remember our strongest ships are dreadnaughts that can even come close in matching their power and we only have like 50 of em), but the fact that they can turn our best and brightest against us AND use are own troops against us is a threat as well.

So I'm once again not seeing anything that says they werent as strong as ME3 made them out to be, we still destroyed quite a few ourselves, but ont kid yourself into thinking we have anywhere near the power to match them on a head on basis

[Urdnot Amenark]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Henioo wrote...

No, I just wanted to stumble across a big-ass plot device and just destroy all Reapers with one button.

yo bra .. your plot device is so big, you'll miss all three parts oth "the lord of the rings" if it passes your tv screen.

sorry .. could not resist.


in fact .. gandalf in "the lord of the rings" acts as a plot tool on several occasions.

- HE discovers the true nature of the one ring
- HE saves the fellowship in the mines of moria and dies
- HE "returnes from the dead" to save several protagonists
- HE leads the charge of the riders of rohan
- HE let pippin ignite the bonfires of gondor

... only a small selection


writers do such things whenever they write themselves (or more precisely the protagonists) into a corner, surrounded by deadly enemys that leaves no way out. the shining tool appears to save the day .. in our case gandalf or the cruicible. the cruicible is a very blunt example for a plot tool tho.

You clearly don't know much about the lore of LOTR. Gandalf is a Maiar thousands of years old who's devoted an equal amount of time fighting Morgoth's most powerful servant, Sauron.

[Cainne Chapel]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and that brings me to another thread, where a bsn member points out, that the reaper in me3 are far more powerful, then they where meant to be in the first 2 games.

the me3 plot is not as good as it should be (in this matter).

superweapons are always lame - doesn't matter in wich universe they apear. they give you the ultimatestest solution, for the ultimatest threat.

That is entirely untrue.

Sovy was powerful, Hell the collectors were powerful

All ME3 did is add to their numbers, not their power.

Unless we played a different ME1 where Sovreign wasnt one of the most powerful ships in the universe and capable of taking on a fleet by itself until its shields magically dropped due to its link to saren.

Show me where the Reapers were ever introduced as "weak".

A worm took out a Destroyer. That's pretty weak.

EDIT: If I remember correctly, after the shields were dropped all it took was a shot from the Normandy to destroy it. That's definitely weak.

Yeah a giant massive mother of all dune worms took out a destroyer, seems like a pretty isolated incident honestly...unless we get kalros cannons to fire at all Destroyers

and yes sovy was taken out with one shot, AFTER its shields were dropped, thats the crux of the issue, his shields were deflecting damn near everything before that.

So your answer to my question is basically we need to have all Reapers drop their shields and we'd be good?  I agree we WOULD have a better chance if they had NO defenses...but the problem is just that... getting through their defenses.

We have weapons that can ignore shields. The problem of course is getting close enough to use them, but I think with the right AI we can easily mimimize the loss of casualties. I bet if the Leviathans gave us intel alot of these problems could be solved much easier than we'd suspect.

Thats alo the other problem, we DO have weapons that can cut through shields but their range is far superior to ours in that respect not to mention their shield technology outweighs ours thanks to their massive cores.

Then we have to figure not EVERY ship has access to thanix missles or cannons, and that our fleets are not even at full strength during the last push and they cana lso one shot most of our ships no problem (not to mention ram through them with no effect as sovy showed).

While I'm not against beating them in a battle, I dont think ME3 rampe dup their power all that much either, all ME3 did is give them massive nu mbers, and thas really ALL they need after ME1.  

[Cainne Chapel]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Reapers shields = me3 being a bad game

Fact.

I'm still waiting for

Reapers = Bad series



You KNOW its coming!

[Dr_Extrem]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

You clearly don't know much about the lore of LOTR. Gandalf is a Maiar thousands of years old who's devoted an equal amount of time fighting Morgoth's most powerful servant, Sauron.

you are right ... but it does not alter the fact, that gandalf is a (plot) driving force AND a "get out of prison" card during the whole story.

(btw i love "the lord of the rings" and i my criticism is slim at best, since gandalf does his job very good and cool - but he needs a bowtie)

[Urdnot Amenark]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

You clearly don't know much about the lore of LOTR. Gandalf is a Maiar thousands of years old who's devoted an equal amount of time fighting Morgoth's most powerful servant, Sauron.

you are right ... but it does not alter the fact, that gandalf is a (plot) driving force AND a "get out of prison" card during the whole story.

(btw i love "the lord of the rings" and i my criticism is slim at best, since gandalf does his job very good and cool - but he needs a bowtie)

Actually, the Eagles are a much better example of this, since they literally are a deus ex machina, both literary wise and in-universe. There's also a lot more that happens in the book than in the movie.

[Dr_Extrem]

Cainne Chapel wrote...


Thats alo the other problem, we DO have weapons that can cut through shields but their range is far superior to ours in that respect not to mention their shield technology outweighs ours thanks to their massive cores.

Then we have to figure not EVERY ship has access to thanix missles or cannons, and that our fleets are not even at full strength during the last push and they cana lso one shot most of our ships no problem (not to mention ram through them with no effect as sovy showed).

While I'm not against beating them in a battle, I dont think ME3 rampe dup their power all that much either, all ME3 did is give them massive nu mbers, and thas really ALL they need after ME1.  

i have an old saying for you ..

"nukem til they glow, then shootem in the dark"


directed energy weapons, heat, radiation what ever bypass the shields ... everything that delivers energy by wavelenght bypasses KINETIC barriers with ease. we should jut warm up the nukes and put on our sunblocker factor 4 billion and let them boil away at 100 miilion °C.

[Urdnot Amenark]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...


Thats alo the other problem, we DO have weapons that can cut through shields but their range is far superior to ours in that respect not to mention their shield technology outweighs ours thanks to their massive cores.

Then we have to figure not EVERY ship has access to thanix missles or cannons, and that our fleets are not even at full strength during the last push and they cana lso one shot most of our ships no problem (not to mention ram through them with no effect as sovy showed).

While I'm not against beating them in a battle, I dont think ME3 rampe dup their power all that much either, all ME3 did is give them massive nu mbers, and thas really ALL they need after ME1.  

i have an old saying for you ..

"nukem til they glow, then shootem in the dark"


directed energy weapons, heat, radiation what ever bypass the shields ... everything that delivers energy by wavelenght bypasses KINETIC barriers with ease. we should jut warm up the nukes and put on our sunblocker factor 4 billion and let them boil away at 100 miilion °C.

Use whatever the krogans did to decimate their own planet.

[Dr_Extrem]

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

Actually, the Eagles are a much better example of this, since they literally are a deus ex machina, both literary wise and in-universe. There's also a lot more that happens in the book than in the movie.

sure .. but the movies are more common, then the books. it was just for understanding. the eagles are definatly a better example - good one!

but gandalf is still a very good tool

Urdnot Amenark wrote...

Use whatever the krogans did to decimate their own planet.

they used good old nukes.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 05 octobre 2012 - 08:50 .