543 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Because It's A Game.

In case you never noticed, everything in the Mass Effect universe is conveniently laid out such that Commander Shepard can make progress and a choice. Very few of these things are given any development or justification other than to be accepted on the face of it. Why does Vigil have a data file compatible with Shepard's omnitool, and why is the Citadel Control conveniently work with it? Where does Shepard get the glowy disc to destroy the Collector Base? Why does the Collector Base even have a glowy disc slot in the first place?

Because It's A Game.

1. Prothean technology was the basis for the tech people use today. Same with the Protheans and their tech. Everybody took the previous cycle's knowledge for their own, stretching all the way back to the Leviathans themselves. Hence why the Reapers can use it. That's why Shepard's omni-tool can handle it.

2. The data file, IIRC, was something the Protheans used for their sabotage.

3. That glowy disc was probably a bypass shunt that Shepard used to hack their computer and overload the core. Or an explosive charge that Shepard used to trigger a meltdown/radiation pulse. Nobody said it came from the Collector base. It was probably given to them by Cerberus.

You can rationalize them however you want: it doesn't change that the game freely jumps however it wants when convenient (or inconvenient). Prothean technology is a prime example: pretty much technologically incompatible with everything else in the galaxy at every other point, with the glorious exception of Shepard and the Cypher.

The game gives you things because it's a game. Unlike reality, there doesn't have to be a deeper utility aspect that can be readily explained.

Prothean technology is also more advanced and uses their sensory ability for data transfer. Hence why Shepard received visions when the beacon on Eden Prime zapped him.

The Prothean Cipher also attuned Shepard's mind to be able to clearly understand Prothean data. Hence why he could see the videos on From Ashes, why he could sense and activate the beacon on Thessia,

The Cipher is a Rosetta Stone. Simple as that.

[WhiteKnyght]

Bathaius wrote...

No, it's unfair to everyone equally.

Really, none of the endings are really Shepard's making.  They are all Reaper solutions to a Reaper problem never be mentioned until the final moment of the series.  You can pick one and the Reapers won't kill you, or not and they will.  Whatever cost you find the least worst is the one you pick: genocide, playing God with DNA and self-identity, or becoming the Reaper overlord yourself, all of which require you to actually believe the Reapers (who are known for indoctrinating every other character in the series they have dealt with) are telling the truth. 

The Paragon/Regenade concept really don't apply to that kind of decision, it's three dark, bitter, horrible choices you have to choose because the villain has a gun pointed to your head.  At that point, it's just a matter of which compromise of ethics you want to make.

It's fine by me and by MY Shepard. Don't speak for me. Not in my name.

Only thing I would have liked better would be the original dark energy idea. It's darker and offers little hope of a perfect outcome. Which was what I expected of Mass Effect 3 the whole time.(Anybody who expected to end the game without a big loss would have been deluding themselves.)

But the endings as they are are fine. Much brighter future than I was expecting.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 06 octobre 2012 - 04:46 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Grey Nayr wrote...


Prothean technology is also more advanced and uses their sensory ability for data transfer. Hence why Shepard received visions when the beacon on Eden Prime zapped him.

The Prothean Cipher also attuned Shepard's mind to be able to clearly understand Prothean data. Hence why he could see the videos on From Ashes, why he could sense and activate the beacon on Thessia,

The Cipher is a Rosetta Stone fanbase-approved space magic. Simple as that.

THERE we go! 

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 06 octobre 2012 - 04:51 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Because It's A Game.

In case you never noticed, everything in the Mass Effect universe is conveniently laid out such that Commander Shepard can make progress and a choice. Very few of these things are given any development or justification other than to be accepted on the face of it. Why does Vigil have a data file compatible with Shepard's omnitool, and why is the Citadel Control conveniently work with it? Where does Shepard get the glowy disc to destroy the Collector Base? Why does the Collector Base even have a glowy disc slot in the first place?

Because It's A Game.

1. Prothean technology was the basis for the tech people use today. Same with the Protheans and their tech. Everybody took the previous cycle's knowledge for their own, stretching all the way back to the Leviathans themselves. Hence why the Reapers can use it. That's why Shepard's omni-tool can handle it.

2. The data file, IIRC, was something the Protheans used for their sabotage.

3. That glowy disc was probably a bypass shunt that Shepard used to hack their computer and overload the core. Or an explosive charge that Shepard used to trigger a meltdown/radiation pulse. Nobody said it came from the Collector base. It was probably given to them by Cerberus.

You can rationalize them however you want: it doesn't change that the game freely jumps however it wants when convenient (or inconvenient). Prothean technology is a prime example: pretty much technologically incompatible with everything else in the galaxy at every other point, with the glorious exception of Shepard and the Cypher.

The game gives you things because it's a game. Unlike reality, there doesn't have to be a deeper utility aspect that can be readily explained.

Prothean technology is also more advanced and uses their sensory ability for data transfer. Hence why Shepard received visions when the beacon on Eden Prime zapped him.

'Advanced technology' is a handwave. It's a convenient rationalization for the fact that no realistic explanation is provided for the form or function of the Prothean beacons.

The Prothean Cipher also attuned Shepard's mind to be able to clearly understand Prothean data. Hence why he could see the videos on From Ashes, why he could sense and activate the beacon on Thessia,

The Cipher is a Rosetta Stone. Simple as that.

How does a plant absorb the 'essence of a species', and then transmit that third-hand view psychic powers?

It remains a hand-wave rationalization. It works because it's a game.

[Dean_the_Young]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...


Prothean technology is also more advanced and uses their sensory ability for data transfer. Hence why Shepard received visions when the beacon on Eden Prime zapped him.

The Prothean Cipher also attuned Shepard's mind to be able to clearly understand Prothean data. Hence why he could see the videos on From Ashes, why he could sense and activate the beacon on Thessia,

The Cipher is a Rosetta Stone fanbase-approved space magic. Simple as that.

THERE we go! 

I was trying to avoid it, but that's the crux of it.

Space Magic is only a bad thing when aesexual space babes aren't involved.

[Cobretti ftw]

Yep.. thats why i had to choose control.

[Maxster_]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

Do you know what forced means? Germans surrendered only because they not wanted to die in fight anymore. That was unconditonal surrender to a whim of the enemy.[/quote]Germany's surrender, and survival, were the subject of mutual interest.
[/quote]
Do not play with definitions.
Unconditional surrender, is when you are surrendering without terms, in hope that enemy will spare you. And there is no guarantee that you even get a trial, instead of being immediately executed. Like a lot of nazy's criminals, by crowds.
[quote]
[quote]
As about mutual interests - Shepard surrendered to a Catalyst, because allied military was completely devastated. And then catalyst, for some strange reasons decided to impose his "solutions" through Shepard. Those terms were not negotiable, it was - do this, or i kill everyone. And nothing more.[/quote]It probably seems strange to you because that's a very strange interpreation of events.

As someone with a passing experience with the military, that's not how surrender works.
[/quote]
Yeah, that is threat. When you refuse to surrender to catalyst solutions - he enrages and changes his plans, to completely annihilate you. Even EAWare showed that in game.

"No, i'm going to end this war on my terms" - Shepard.
"Then you will die knowing that you failed to save everything you fought for" - Catalyst.
video

It is exactly what i'm saying.
[quote]
[quote]
Oh, comrade, how you just missed...
First, it is completely irrelevant to a fact, that we ever considered negotiations instead of germany's unconditional surrender. Stalin said that in the first days of war. [/quote]That doesn't counter the point.
[/quote]
It is perfectly covers point.
[quote]
[quote]
So now, we haven't had common interests with genocidal monsters after that. [/quote]Except 'you', assuming your are Russia, did: Germany's unconditional surrender.

In order to convince Germany that it was in Germany's own interest, a lot of bombing and demonstration of the actual balance of power needed to be shown, but some people are stubborn.
[/quote]
Well, personally i had no part in that, but my grandfathers and grandmothers are. So it gives me the right to say "we".
And it was a unconditional surrender, as unconditionally unconditional surrender could be. Germany was beaten to that point, so they just surrendered without any negotiations. They tried to negotiate some terms, but ignored by Soviets by Stalin's direct orders.
[quote]
[quote]
Unlike some american companies(
The Union Banking Corporation (UBC) was a banking corporation in the US whose assets were seized by the United States government during World War II under the Trading with the Enemy Act and Executive Order No. 9095.
Act of seizure Oct. 5, 1942

http://en.wikipedia....ing_Corporation
http://en.wikipedia...._Herbert_Walker
http://en.wikipedia....i/Prescott_Bush
http://rense.com/gen.../bushhitler.htm
).[/quote]How does this change whether the Soviet Union made common cause with **** Germany before the war?
[/quote]
It does not. It just shows, that everyone had common cause with Germany before the war.
The less humane Germans become, the less neutral countries they start having, and more enemies.

[quote]
[quote]
Second, i like westerners hypocrisy. When they are actively helping Germany, by dividing Czechoslovakia(1938), giving credits, prasing in press, actively trading with germany -
That is considered normal.[/quote]
[quote]
And when USSR doing even less, Non-Aggression Pact(which is not an alliance, and certainly not helping),[/quote]You might want to ask who that Pact benefited against who before you make that claim.

[quote]
and some trade -
That is immediately considered horrible crime.
Those western hypocrities [/quote]And?

Surely you have a point that actually contests whether enemies can make common cause? I could point to US-Soviet joint agreements, the US-Japanese alliance following WW2, the Entente, the Greek city states against Persia, the Italian city states against the Turks, or a variety of other historical examples.

Now, you could certainly argue that hypocricy (far from just a Western trait) is a factor in the creation of these switches... but that would only be furthering my point.
[/quote]
Well, human's history certainly not the bright walk with unicorns and very dirty sometimes, but it is certainly getting better with time.
At least we have no slavery now

As for your point - no, Soviets had no common interests with those who directly responsible for genocide after they ordered and committed that genocide. They ended up mostly dead and jailed.
There were some common interests before, but none after.
And by thus i'm saying, that it is perfect to have common interest with reapers, but only before they started their genocidal rampage.
[quote]
[quote]
Yeah, yeah, sure space magic and unicorns.

Please tell me, how exactly conveniently happens, that all functionality and interface to use giant battery, is built-in into Citadel from the beginning. I hope you do know, that Citadel built by the reapers?

[/quote]Because It's A Game.

In case you never noticed, everything in the Mass Effect universe is conveniently laid out such that Commander Shepard can make progress and a choice. Very few of these things are given any development or justification other than to be accepted on the face of it. Why does Vigil have a data file compatible with Shepard's omnitool, and why is the Citadel Control conveniently work with it? Where does Shepard get the glowy disc to destroy the Collector Base? Why does the Collector Base even have a glowy disc slot in the first place?

Because It's A Game.

[/quote]
You got yourself in my trap

That is not about convenience, it is certainly says, that reapers created all functionality for those choices. They created the terms of "victory", not Shepard.

How you design a unknown device with unknown function, supposedly a weapon, that should interface with another unknown device, with unknown function, unknown interface, unknown location and no one ever knows it is ever exists in the first place?

Answer is : you don't.

Either that was a [in]direct evidence that this giant battery was designed by the reapers, because only they knew functionality and interface they built into Citadel.

Either that was just mocking of science, engineering and common sense. Just for lulz.

Modifié par Maxster_, 06 octobre 2012 - 05:18 .

[Maxster_]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...


Prothean technology is also more advanced and uses their sensory ability for data transfer. Hence why Shepard received visions when the beacon on Eden Prime zapped him.

The Prothean Cipher also attuned Shepard's mind to be able to clearly understand Prothean data. Hence why he could see the videos on From Ashes, why he could sense and activate the beacon on Thessia,

The Cipher is a Rosetta Stone fanbase-approved space magic. Simple as that.

THERE we go! 

I was trying to avoid it, but that's the crux of it.

Space Magic is only a bad thing when aesexual space babes aren't involved.

Don't touch blue girls!
They have almost nothing to do with Cipher.

[MerchantGOL]

If your playing a paragon then control is not totalitarian order.


further more it is the option with the least amount of suffering,I.E paragon

[V-rcingetorix]

Back to original question, was there an ending fair to a paragon?

If the question is asking about a paragon ending similar to the previous 2 games, every mission in ME1 and ME2, and practically every DLC that was made for them (BDTS, Kasumi, Zaeed, OverLord, LOTSB,), then no. No there wasn't.

If the question is about whether the ending to ME3 had paragon ending potential similar to Arma2, CoD, Mein Kampf or the final episode of My Little Pony, then yes. Yes it did.

Which are we talking about?

[Menagra]

I agree entirely. I have a sneaking suspicion bioware was worried a "happy" ending (ending that didn't involve genocide or death) would have leaned too far paragon and so they ditch the paragon option but they kept the planned renegade option. Leaving a crappy paragon mess and a pretty decent ending for renegade.

[SneakyDuc]

Maxster_ wrote...

SneakyDuc wrote...

The catalyst is not a force of evil the catalyst does not hate and doesn't long to kill all life. The catalyst is simply carrying out its programming to ensure that synthetics do not destroy life in the galaxy. The crucible enables the catalyst to alter the method used to ensure this.

That excuse never worked and never will.
Catalyst is sentient and thus carries direct responsibility for his actions.

It is not a sentient in the terms that you want it described in. Similar to how the levaithan isn't comparable to a human. How they preceive the universe is fundamentally defferent. Look at it from a alternate prespective the Catalyst ultimately preserves life for the next cycle. The catalyst's sole motivation is to prevent the death of all life in the universe. The Catalyst is as evil as a an earthquake or a tsunami. We as victims preceive it as evil, but this is a misconception it is merely an event within nature the harvest is a event that was artifically placed in nature and does not end life it alters it. Much like clearing a forest or bulding a dam the old style of life is destoryed and new styles begin.

[MerchantGOL]

The Catalyst is a shackled Ai

Its no more responsible for its actions then a garbage disposal is

[Maxster_]

SneakyDuc wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

SneakyDuc wrote...

The catalyst is not a force of evil the catalyst does not hate and doesn't long to kill all life. The catalyst is simply carrying out its programming to ensure that synthetics do not destroy life in the galaxy. The crucible enables the catalyst to alter the method used to ensure this.

That excuse never worked and never will.
Catalyst is sentient and thus carries direct responsibility for his actions.

It is not a sentient in the terms that you want it described in. Similar to how the levaithan isn't comparable to a human. How they preceive the universe is fundamentally defferent. Look at it from a alternate prespective the Catalyst ultimately preserves life for the next cycle. The catalyst's sole motivation is to prevent the death of all life in the universe. The Catalyst is as evil as a an earthquake or a tsunami. We as victims preceive it as evil, but this is a misconception it is merely an event within nature the harvest is a event that was artifically placed in nature and does not end life it alters it. Much like clearing a forest or bulding a dam the old style of life is destoryed and new styles begin.

As i said, that is no excuse. He is sentient and capable of thought process. Thus, he is responsible.

[jpraelster93]

Sythesis was rape rape isnt paragon

and how do you figure destroy is renegade last time I checked the illusive man was renagade (Control) and anderson was paragon (Destroy)

Modifié par jpraelster93, 06 octobre 2012 - 07:20 .

[SneakyDuc]

MerchantGOL wrote...

The Catalyst is a shackled Ai

Its no more responsible for its actions then a garbage disposal is

I wouldn't say that a shackled AI wouldn't have been able to kill its creators. I think of it as a AI that was allowed to take whatever steps nessicary to prevent synthetics from killing all intelligent life. Its creators gave it a single-minded purpose and free range to achiecve its goal. It gets interesting from there whether they felt that it could not possibly deem their death nessicary or that one of the programmers gave it this ability on purpose.

[SneakyDuc]

Maxster_ wrote...

SneakyDuc wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

SneakyDuc wrote...

The catalyst is not a force of evil the catalyst does not hate and doesn't long to kill all life. The catalyst is simply carrying out its programming to ensure that synthetics do not destroy life in the galaxy. The crucible enables the catalyst to alter the method used to ensure this.

That excuse never worked and never will.
Catalyst is sentient and thus carries direct responsibility for his actions.

It is not a sentient in the terms that you want it described in. Similar to how the levaithan isn't comparable to a human. How they preceive the universe is fundamentally defferent. Look at it from a alternate prespective the Catalyst ultimately preserves life for the next cycle. The catalyst's sole motivation is to prevent the death of all life in the universe. The Catalyst is as evil as a an earthquake or a tsunami. We as victims preceive it as evil, but this is a misconception it is merely an event within nature the harvest is a event that was artifically placed in nature and does not end life it alters it. Much like clearing a forest or bulding a dam the old style of life is destoryed and new styles begin.

As i said, that is no excuse. He is sentient and capable of thought process. Thus, he is responsible.

It is a misconception to blame a fire for burning. It is a misconception to think of the catalyst's thought process remotely similar to any other sentients indeed it is beyond the processes of those who created it. It is not evil or good it simply is and it simply does what was needed of it to accomplish its purpose. The catalyst is responsible for the continuation of the cycle and nothing else. It never reflected on its actions and never questioned them it had no negative thoughts when its plan was rendered ineffective.

[Maxster_]

SneakyDuc wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

SneakyDuc wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

SneakyDuc wrote...

The catalyst is not a force of evil the catalyst does not hate and doesn't long to kill all life. The catalyst is simply carrying out its programming to ensure that synthetics do not destroy life in the galaxy. The crucible enables the catalyst to alter the method used to ensure this.

That excuse never worked and never will.
Catalyst is sentient and thus carries direct responsibility for his actions.

It is not a sentient in the terms that you want it described in. Similar to how the levaithan isn't comparable to a human. How they preceive the universe is fundamentally defferent. Look at it from a alternate prespective the Catalyst ultimately preserves life for the next cycle. The catalyst's sole motivation is to prevent the death of all life in the universe. The Catalyst is as evil as a an earthquake or a tsunami. We as victims preceive it as evil, but this is a misconception it is merely an event within nature the harvest is a event that was artifically placed in nature and does not end life it alters it. Much like clearing a forest or bulding a dam the old style of life is destoryed and new styles begin.

As i said, that is no excuse. He is sentient and capable of thought process. Thus, he is responsible.

It is a misconception to blame a fire for burning. It is a misconception to think of the catalyst's thought process remotely similar to any other sentients indeed it is beyond the processes of those who created it. It is not evil or good it simply is and it simply does what was needed of it to accomplish its purpose. The catalyst is responsible for the continuation of the cycle and nothing else. It never reflected on its actions and never questioned them it had no negative thoughts when its plan was rendered ineffective.

It is irrelevant that his "thought process" is different from humans. Actually, not so much, as it shown in Refuse ending, and especially when you shot him(EAWare f.y. for fans can also be used ). He just enrages and shutdowns the crucible.

Point is, if he sentient, then he is responsible for his actions.

[drayfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

You seem to believe that morality is all-or-nothing; that we must be purly, shiningly innocently good in the way we conduct warfare, or we're just as bad as they are. This is not the case. I mean, how many people has even the most Paragon of Shepards casually mowed down without a thought? While less of an issue in ME3, how many of the dead were just doing their jobs, from ME1 and 2? And again, there's the thing with blowing up a whole star system.

And everything you mentioned about unity and diversity and so forth: that was all still important. The fact that it came down to the use of a superweapon doesn't mean that all the effort to build it, and all the effort to simply position the thing was for naught.  I probably went too far in some of my last lines; ideas are unimportant in terms of being used against the Reapers, but do remain important for keeping the allied side together. Just because much of the war was a delaying action doesn't mean any of it was less vital, or that bringing the galaxy together was any less important.

Then, coming to the Crucible... well, that's the point, where, while hope can achieve great things, it can't achieve everything. Ruthlessness is necessary in war too; some degree of it, at the very least, is necessary to kill, and I haven't seen you objecting to doing that against the enemy side. As for the solutions themselves, I share your distaste for Destroy and don't have my thoughts sorted out on Synthesis, but I contend that Control is still quite a hopeful ending; certainly taking that action requires a fair bit of hope on Shepard's part.

At no point - in any of my statements anywhere - have I ever declared that the only way to play this game is with Miffy the Space Coward. I have never said that the only valid Shepard is a beacon of goodness and friendship, who never fires a weapon and offers the enemy cookies, and I'm not sure why you are trying to reduce my position to some fantastical bastion of Disney Princess goodness - it seems needlessly reductive.

An enemy wants to genocide all life; clearly it needs to be stopped. In any build of the character Shepard is a soldier and a realist; clearly she is going to do what needs to be done.

But I am talking about basic, defining human morality. Sure, it's lovely that the universe comes together to build a big mystery machine, but all of that symbolic inclusivity and faith gets utterly annihilated when the machine gets switched on.

The game asks you to commit genocide on a friendly race of allies. It asks you to wipe out an entire form of life who do not wish you harm, who are fighting beside you, with you, for you. It asks you to believe that the extermination of one race is acceptable for the preservation of another, tasking you with the arrogance of weighing the value of two forms of life. Just like a Reaper.

The game asks you to take away everyone's right to autonomy - to violate the sanctity of their bodies against their will in order to eradicate racism and intolerance by mutating distinction away. It compels you to breach the most basic freedoms that a human being can have because you think you know better than every living creature how they should live their life, and because you have a painfully narrow vision of their capacity to live in peace. Just like a Reaper.

Or, the game asks you to use mind-control, enslaving a race in order to ascend to the status of a god, thereby ruling the galaxy (no matter how nice you might be), because, as an as an unstoppable force of will, your rule will be law. The game asks you if your Shepard is egotistical enough to believe that he/she can succeed where every other character who pursued such power failed, and whether he/she is willing to embrace such enormity of power in oder to dictate how the universe will function. Just like a Reaper.

My position is that pretending you can use the tactics and methodology of evil while still thinking yourself virtuous, that you are fighting for anything more than base survival, is delusion. My issue continues to be that it is a lie to believe that one can perform evil, and think that just because you performed it and not the other guy, that somehow it isn't evil anymore.

Modifié par drayfish, 06 octobre 2012 - 08:51 .

[SpamBot2000]

The ending is unfair to players who are inclined towards Mass Effect.

[Dean_the_Young]

Maxster_ wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...


Prothean technology is also more advanced and uses their sensory ability for data transfer. Hence why Shepard received visions when the beacon on Eden Prime zapped him.

The Prothean Cipher also attuned Shepard's mind to be able to clearly understand Prothean data. Hence why he could see the videos on From Ashes, why he could sense and activate the beacon on Thessia,

The Cipher is a Rosetta Stone fanbase-approved space magic. Simple as that.

THERE we go! 

I was trying to avoid it, but that's the crux of it.

Space Magic is only a bad thing when aesexual space babes aren't involved.

Don't touch blue girls!
They have almost nothing to do with Cipher.

You get the cypher during a scene of mysticism mind-sex with a submissive woman in a bondage suit.

[Xilizhra]

drayfish wrote...

At no point - in any of my statements anywhere - have I ever declared that the only way to play this game is with Miffy the Space Coward. I have never said that the only valid Shepard is a beacon of goodness and friendship, who never fires a weapon and offers the enemy cookies, and I'm not sure why you are trying to reduce my position to some fantastical bastion of Disney Princess goodness - it seems needlessly reductive.

An enemy wants to genocide all life; clearly it needs to be stopped. In any build of the character Shepard is a soldier and a realist; clearly she is going to do what needs to be done.

But I am talking about basic, defining human morality. Sure, it's lovely that the universe comes together to build a big mystery machine, but all of that symbolic inclusivity and faith gets utterly annihilated when the machine gets switched on.

The game asks you to commit genocide on a friendly race of allies. It asks you to wipe out an entire form of life who do not wish you harm, who are fighting beside you, with you, for you. It asks you to believe that the extermination of one race is acceptable for the preservation of another, tasking you with the arrogance of weighing the value of two forms of life. Just like a Reaper.

The game asks you to take away everyone's right to autonomy - to violate the sanctity of their bodies against their will in order to eradicate racism and intolerance by mutating distinction away. It compels you to breach the most basic freedoms that a human being can have because you think you know better than every living creature how they should live their life, and because you have a painfully narrow vision of their capacity to live in peace. Just like a Reaper.

Or, the game asks you to use mind-control, enslaving a race in order to ascend to the status of a god, thereby ruling the galaxy (no matter how nice you might be), because, as an as an unstoppable force of will, your rule will be law. The game asks you if your Shepard is egotistical enough to believe that he/she can succeed where every other character who pursued such power failed, and whether he/she is willing to embrace such enormity of power in oder to dictate how the universe will function. Just like a Reaper.

My position is that pretending you can use the tactics and methodology of evil while still thinking yourself virtuous, that you are fighting for anything more than base survival, is delusion. My issue continues to be that it is a lie to believe that one can perform evil, and think that just because you performed it and not the other guy, that somehow it isn't evil anymore.

So what you're saying is that no Shepard who makes it to the end of the game and finishes it can possibly be a good person? There's no action whatsoever there that a good person could possibly undertake?

[galland]

Xilizhra wrote...

drayfish wrote...

At no point - in any of my statements anywhere - have I ever declared that the only way to play this game is with Miffy the Space Coward. I have never said that the only valid Shepard is a beacon of goodness and friendship, who never fires a weapon and offers the enemy cookies, and I'm not sure why you are trying to reduce my position to some fantastical bastion of Disney Princess goodness - it seems needlessly reductive.

An enemy wants to genocide all life; clearly it needs to be stopped. In any build of the character Shepard is a soldier and a realist; clearly she is going to do what needs to be done.

But I am talking about basic, defining human morality. Sure, it's lovely that the universe comes together to build a big mystery machine, but all of that symbolic inclusivity and faith gets utterly annihilated when the machine gets switched on.

The game asks you to commit genocide on a friendly race of allies. It asks you to wipe out an entire form of life who do not wish you harm, who are fighting beside you, with you, for you. It asks you to believe that the extermination of one race is acceptable for the preservation of another, tasking you with the arrogance of weighing the value of two forms of life. Just like a Reaper.

The game asks you to take away everyone's right to autonomy - to violate the sanctity of their bodies against their will in order to eradicate racism and intolerance by mutating distinction away. It compels you to breach the most basic freedoms that a human being can have because you think you know better than every living creature how they should live their life, and because you have a painfully narrow vision of their capacity to live in peace. Just like a Reaper.

Or, the game asks you to use mind-control, enslaving a race in order to ascend to the status of a god, thereby ruling the galaxy (no matter how nice you might be), because, as an as an unstoppable force of will, your rule will be law. The game asks you if your Shepard is egotistical enough to believe that he/she can succeed where every other character who pursued such power failed, and whether he/she is willing to embrace such enormity of power in oder to dictate how the universe will function. Just like a Reaper.

My position is that pretending you can use the tactics and methodology of evil while still thinking yourself virtuous, that you are fighting for anything more than base survival, is delusion. My issue continues to be that it is a lie to believe that one can perform evil, and think that just because you performed it and not the other guy, that somehow it isn't evil anymore.

So what you're saying is that no Shepard who makes it to the end of the game and finishes it can possibly be a good person? There's no action whatsoever there that a good person could possibly undertake?

[SpamBot2000]

Xilizhra wrote...

drayfish wrote...

At no point - in any of my statements anywhere - have I ever declared that the only way to play this game is with Miffy the Space Coward. I have never said that the only valid Shepard is a beacon of goodness and friendship, who never fires a weapon and offers the enemy cookies, and I'm not sure why you are trying to reduce my position to some fantastical bastion of Disney Princess goodness - it seems needlessly reductive.

An enemy wants to genocide all life; clearly it needs to be stopped. In any build of the character Shepard is a soldier and a realist; clearly she is going to do what needs to be done.

But I am talking about basic, defining human morality. Sure, it's lovely that the universe comes together to build a big mystery machine, but all of that symbolic inclusivity and faith gets utterly annihilated when the machine gets switched on.

The game asks you to commit genocide on a friendly race of allies. It asks you to wipe out an entire form of life who do not wish you harm, who are fighting beside you, with you, for you. It asks you to believe that the extermination of one race is acceptable for the preservation of another, tasking you with the arrogance of weighing the value of two forms of life. Just like a Reaper.

The game asks you to take away everyone's right to autonomy - to violate the sanctity of their bodies against their will in order to eradicate racism and intolerance by mutating distinction away. It compels you to breach the most basic freedoms that a human being can have because you think you know better than every living creature how they should live their life, and because you have a painfully narrow vision of their capacity to live in peace. Just like a Reaper.

Or, the game asks you to use mind-control, enslaving a race in order to ascend to the status of a god, thereby ruling the galaxy (no matter how nice you might be), because, as an as an unstoppable force of will, your rule will be law. The game asks you if your Shepard is egotistical enough to believe that he/she can succeed where every other character who pursued such power failed, and whether he/she is willing to embrace such enormity of power in oder to dictate how the universe will function. Just like a Reaper.

My position is that pretending you can use the tactics and methodology of evil while still thinking yourself virtuous, that you are fighting for anything more than base survival, is delusion. My issue continues to be that it is a lie to believe that one can perform evil, and think that just because you performed it and not the other guy, that somehow it isn't evil anymore.

So what you're saying is that no Shepard who makes it to the end of the game and finishes it can possibly be a good person? There's no action whatsoever there that a good person could possibly undertake?

That's why some of us feel the ending is a little flawed...

[Quething]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

That's why some of us feel the ending is a little flawed...

^^

Also, I would put some chronological specificity on that descriptor. Could a good person make one of those choices? I suppose. Would she still qualify as a good person after? I would argue no.

I have one Shep who that would work for really well, actually, and on the whole I think it's a good design decision to have such an option available - not a standard risk-averse able-to-live-with-oneself Renegade option but a genuinely unequivocally morally bad one (and not a "lulz evil" one like some of the fake Renegade options, *coughrecruitingMorinthcough* but one that actually makes sense).

I have another Shep for whom that makes no damn sense whatsoever. I suppose at least she gets Refuse now.