543 réponses à ce sujet

[movieguyabw]

Maxster_ wrote...


Unconditionally surrendering to an enemy whim is as unrenegadeish as it could ever be.

This. x1000

[AlanC9]

Maxster_ wrote...

Giant battery is just a giant battery.
Please enlighten me, how that could possibly happen, that all functionality and interface to use the giant battery, was built-in into the citadel from the very beginning?

You going IT-Con too?

[Getorex]

AlanC9 wrote...

Getorex wrote...

At the end of the game, no matter how well or how crappy you play, you lose because the terms and conditions of ending the conflict are DICTATED to you and you have NO input, no negotiation on those terms.  That means you lost.  That is true in the real world and it is objectively true in fantasy or scifi or just plain fiction.  If the enemy dictates the terms, you lost.  Period.  If all you can do is choose among options given by your enemy, YOU LOST.

This is extremely silly. The Catalyst didn't build the Crucible, and has no control over the options. If he did, he wouldn't let you pick Destroy.

Unless you want to sign on with The Twilight God's fantasy ending, that is.

Not silly.  Simple fact. If you are at war with X and you get together to discuss terms for ending the war and X sets ALL the terms and conditions and you set none. You lost.  Simple as that. The kid is completely and fully capable of stopping the Reapers, but wont. You have no say so it is all on his terms. That makes you the LOSER.

Consider: this kid thing obviously has control over the Reapers.  The little tike could make them do whatever he wants.  He is offering to let YOU choose an action on HIS terms, provided you kill yourself in all cases.  If you tell the tike you want to control the Reapers and send them on their way...there is no reason the tike couldn't do that.  The result is the same whether the tike does it or Shepard does it, except the tike takes his pound of flesh and sees you dead in making doing so.  OR the tike could accept your wish and do it himself without anyone dying to do so.  Exact same effect either way but the kid demands a pointless victor-determined human sacrifice to do it.  

"Hey kid, I just want this nonsense to stop.  If I'm going to choose, then I will choose to control the Reapers and make them go away".

Kid: "OK, you can do that.  But you have to kill yourself."

"Why?"

Kid: "Because I say so.  I'm in control here and I demand a sacrifice."

"Why?  What do you get out of it?"

Kid: "My pound of flesh."

"What the hell do you need/want a 'pound of flesh' for?!"

Kid: "Because I do."

"You KNOW what my choice is, I just told you and YOU could do it more easily than I can but without the whole deathy thing thrown in.  YOU wont die and I wont die.  Win-win.  So why not do that?  The end result is precisely the same! The end result is the same for you so what difference does it make?  YOU do it.  Win-win."

Kid: "But you would still be alive and I want you to die for whatever choice you make...this is ALL on my terms."

"In that case, ****** off!  I wont choose ANY of those options you give me."

Kid: "As you wish.  You will die anyway because I WANT MY POUND OF FLESH."

"You are quite the little ****."

Modifié par Getorex, 04 octobre 2012 - 02:43 .

[moater boat]

I think it is unfair to players who are inclined towards logic and good storytelling.

[tvman099]

silentassassin264 wrote...

No. Synthesis was incredibly Paragon. Sacrifice yourself, save everyone and make life for everyone better. Paragon Control is also obviously Paragon. Paragon Shepard gets to become the guardian of the galaxy a be a selfless protector forever.

Considering yourself qualified enough to make a judgment that results in a total alteration to the fundamental existence of all living things in the galaxy without caring whether or not they desire that kind of change, on the basis that you think it will be "better for everyone" is megalomaniacal, not paragon.

Modifié par tvman099, 04 octobre 2012 - 02:40 .

[Maxster_]

AlanC9 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Giant battery is just a giant battery.
Please enlighten me, how that could possibly happen, that all functionality and interface to use the giant battery, was built-in into the citadel from the very beginning?

You going IT-Con too?

Of course not. They are just like sect.

EAWare just incapable of creating a coherent, plausible, believeable, scientific(for sci-fi it matters, you know) and not retarded plot nowadays.

So, your answer will be...

[Getorex]

tvman099 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

No. Synthesis was incredibly Paragon. Sacrifice yourself, save everyone and make life for everyone better. Paragon Control is also obviously Paragon. Paragon Shepard gets to become the guardian of the galaxy a be a selfless protector forever.

Considering yourself qualified enough to make a judgment that results in a total alteration to the fundamental existence of all living things in the galaxy without caring whether or not they desire that kind of change, and assuming that it will be "better for everyone" is megalomaniacal, not paragon.

Pretty much this.  Perfectly and concisely stated. 

[Maxster_]

Getorex wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Yeah, that works better.

Anyway, I think that Synthesis was intended to be the perfect Paragon ending. Most players seem to not have the same opinion as Bioware about that one, though.

Taking away evolution for any other organism in the galaxy so no new sentients come along to join the "galactic brotherhood" is pretty ****ty.  Making everyone pretty generic copies of each other is pretty ****ty.  Making such a decision for EVERYONE and taking away their autonomy is worst of all. 

Turning the galaxy into a bland "we're all green" sameness just plain sucks. 

The biggest suck in the entire game is it is unwinnable no matter what you did in the previous games.  No matter how you acted, who you killed, who you saved.  No matter what alliances you gain, you cannot win the game.  That sucks worse then the tricolor ending.  You cannot win because you have NO say at all in the outcome.  You were dictated to by the brat.  No back-and-forth.  No negotiation.  No give-and-take.  The victor dictated the terms and conditions of ending the war and all you were allowed to do was choose the color of losing.  Even if you go with the EC provided "none of the above" choice YOU STILL LOSE.  The reaping continues as if you never existed.  As if you didn't do anything at all in the series.  

In fact, I played ME3 ONE time about 7 months ago.  I ended my playing about 1/4 through the final battle on the ground of earth.  By that point I knew the tricolor ending fail and refused to continue.  Didn't WANT to continue.  I held out completing the game at the time with the expectation that the fan rebellion would actually bear fruit and give the game a REAL ending.  It was unprecedented, the outcry and bad press.  Surely it would produce a real result.  Nope.  It merely led to EC.  No fix, no redeeming the game.  So I never went back to the game.  Until today.

After 7 months I decided, "What he hell, let's see if I can get through this mess once more" with every intention of terminating the play-through on earth just after speaking to everyone again.  I have no interest or desire to do any fighting towards that silly magic beam.  Thing is, as I play I find that I really don't care about the characters very much anymore.  I'm slogging along but so what? I also find that I keep talking to the game at key points.  I JUST got he Turian Primarch on the Normandy but so what?  I'm thinking (and saying), "what's the point? This in-game worry about whether or not you will get the Krogans onboard or the Salerians or the Asari, blah blah...so what?  It doesn't DO anything to get them."  The developers set it up to make it SEEM that all the negotiation, all the helping and coaxing and coddling of various races would maybe LEAD somewhere.  But it doesn't.  At the end of the game, no matter how well or how crappy you play, you lose because the terms and conditions of ending the conflict are DICTATED to you and you have NO input, no negotiation on those terms.  That means you lost.  That is true in the real world and it is objectively true in fantasy or scifi or just plain fiction.  If the enemy dictates the terms, you lost.  Period.  If all you can do is choose among options given by your enemy, YOU LOST.

That kind of takes he life out of the game and makes it, for me, feel like just some generic shooter game (one you can't, ultimately, win though).  ALL other shooters, ALL FPS games.  ALL of them give you a way to win if you play it solid and strong.  Just not this game.  That is the biggest fail of them all.<_<

Yeah, i agree.
"Victory" is Catalyst decision, and his only. He could offered same "victory" to any civilization at any cycle, he is retarded and crazy anyway.
And this means that everything Shepard did - mean completely nothing.

[AlanC9]

Getorex wrote...

Not silly.  Simple fact. If you are at war with X and you get together to discuss terms for ending the war and X sets ALL the terms and conditions and you set none. You lost.  Simple as that.

Right. The Catalyst is the one who lost. He isn't setting anything; Shepard set the conditions by docking the Crucible.The Catalystt can't even control what the Crucible does. Only Shepard can.

But of course, neither the kid nor the Reapers ever had any real freedom. They follow their programming. Which is why they can't stop the war even if Shepard derps and chooses Refuse.

[Maxster_]

AlanC9 wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Not silly.  Simple fact. If you are at war with X and you get together to discuss terms for ending the war and X sets ALL the terms and conditions and you set none. You lost.  Simple as that.

Right. The Catalyst is the one who lost. He isn't setting anything; Shepard set the conditions by docking the Crucible.The Catalystt can't even control what the Crucible does. Only Shepard can.

But of course, neither the kid nor the Reapers ever had any real freedom. They follow their programming. Which is why they can't stop the war even if Shepard derps and chooses Refuse.

Because all functionality to use giant battery was provided by reapers. Yeah, Shepard's terms, indeed.

Please tell me, how you design a device with unknown function, that should interface with another unknown device, with unknown function, unknown interface, unknown location, and unconfirmed existence.

[Getorex]

AlanC9 wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Not silly.  Simple fact. If you are at war with X and you get together to discuss terms for ending the war and X sets ALL the terms and conditions and you set none. You lost.  Simple as that.

Right. The Catalyst is the one who lost. He isn't setting anything; Shepard set the conditions by docking the Crucible.The Catalystt can't even control what the Crucible does. Only Shepard can.

But of course, neither the kid nor the Reapers ever had any real freedom. They follow their programming. Which is why they can't stop the war even if Shepard derps and chooses Refuse.

The reapers and the kid are not merely a short code of

If (advanced organics are using relays and citadel) then
   Kill them
Else
   Sleep

Nor are they a mere case statement.  They are extremely highly advanced AIs fully capable of making decisions.  Presumably (and by story lore) they are more advanced intelligences than EDI or the Geth but both the latter are apparently capable of more advanced thought and volition than the uber-advanced Reapers?  They're just dumb calculators that can only do one thing?  Not reasonable. 

[What a Succulent Ass]

THE ENDING IS UNFAIR TO PEOPLE WHO ARE INCLINED TOWARD LOGIC

/STIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[JBPBRC]

Random Jerkface wrote...

THE ENDING IS UNFAIR TO PEOPLE WHO ARE INCLINED TOWARD LOGIC

[grey_wind]

AlanC9 wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Not silly.  Simple fact. If you are at war with X and you get together to discuss terms for ending the war and X sets ALL the terms and conditions and you set none. You lost.  Simple as that.

Right. The Catalyst is the one who lost. He isn't setting anything; Shepard set the conditions by docking the Crucible.The Catalystt can't even control what the Crucible does. Only Shepard can.

But of course, neither the kid nor the Reapers ever had any real freedom. They follow their programming. Which is why they can't stop the war even if Shepard derps and chooses Refuse.

He shuts the Crucible down if you refuse his options.

[Maxster_]

Random Jerkface wrote...

THE ENDING IS UNFAIR TO PEOPLE WHO ARE INCLINED TOWARD LOGIC

/STIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

It is also very insulting to a scientists(biologists especially), engineers and programmers.

[What a Succulent Ass]

JBPBRC wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

THE ENDING IS UNFAIR TO PEOPLE WHO ARE INCLINED TOWARD LOGIC

[img]http://i53.tinypic.com/123kxub.jpg]http://i53.tinypic.com/123kxub.jpg[/img]

[What a Succulent Ass]

Maxster_ wrote...
It is also very insulting to a scientists(biologists especially), engineers and programmers.

For those in the field of biomedical engineering, it's a triple threat. 

[AlanC9]

grey_wind wrote...

He shuts the Crucible down if you refuse his options.

So you refuse to use the Crucible and he.... doesn't let you use the Crucible?

[MegaSovereign]

The Paragon Control ending is a bit ambiguous as to what the Shepard intelligence will do. It certainly doesn't say that it will govern the galaxy in a totalitarian sense. That's implied in the Renegade version of Control but not the Paragon.

The Control ending is the best ending for the pragmatic Paragon player because the only real sacrifice that takes place is Shepard's body. Throughout the game Paragon Shepard's goal was to stop the Reapers and save as many lives as possible. When Javik says that our only priority is to destroy the Reapers and that anyone who gets in the way deserves to be a causality, Paragon Shepard disagrees by saying that the war has never been that cut and dry. When Javik says that we shouldn't care about the weak, Paragon Shepard disagrees. When Garrus describes the ruthless calculus of war, Paragon Shepard says that we should do our best to avoid it. See the trend here?

Compare how Paragon Shepard's views with that of what the new Catalyst's dialogue in the Paragon Control ending and you'll basically see that it matches up pretty well.

For those that say that no one should have that much influence over the galaxy...well guess what: Shepard has been the biggest influence to the galaxy for all 3 games. He's called the shots on a lot of the tough issues including the genophage and the Quarian/Geth conflict. Now he's turning life's biggest threat into the Galaxy's strongest shield.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 04 octobre 2012 - 03:07 .

[Maxster_]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
It is also very insulting to a scientists(biologists especially), engineers and programmers.

For those in the field of biomedical engineering, it's a triple threat. 

I'd say - finisher.

[Hey]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
It is also very insulting to a scientists(biologists especially), engineers and programmers.

For those in the field of biomedical engineering, it's a triple threat. 

[Maxster_]

AlanC9 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

He shuts the Crucible down if you refuse his options.

So you refuse to use the Crucible and he.... doesn't let you use the Crucible?

That means, that not only reapers created interface and functionality for crucible from the beginning, also they designed crucible and have full control over it.

[MegaSovereign]

Maxster_ wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

He shuts the Crucible down if you refuse his options.

So you refuse to use the Crucible and he.... doesn't let you use the Crucible?

That means, that not only reapers created interface and functionality for crucible from the beginning, also they designed crucible and have full control over it.

There is no evidence that the Catalyst shut off the Crucible.

[The Aesthetic Ghant]

The ending wasn't and isn't fair to anyone.

[AlanC9]

Getorex wrote...
The reapers and the kid are not merely a short code of

If (advanced organics are using relays and citadel) then
   Kill them
Else
   Sleep

Nor are they a mere case statement.  They are extremely highly advanced AIs fully capable of making decisions.  Presumably (and by story lore) they are more advanced intelligences than EDI or the Geth but both the latter are apparently capable of more advanced thought and volition than the uber-advanced Reapers?  They're just dumb calculators that can only do one thing?  Not reasonable. 

If you want to headcanon that, OK. (Note that being an advanced AI and having fundamental directives is not a contradiction.)

So if the Catalyst is in control and autonomous, why does he want to kill Shepard in Control? Why does he give Shepard the Destroy option?