543 réponses à ce sujet

[drayfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

The hope/unity thing was for actually getting to this point, for building the Crucible and assembling fleets to protect it. They were still vitally important things. In any case, I don't really see how the endings actually repudiate it, except for maybe Refusal. Certainly life goes on, although rather diminished in the case of Destroy. Even Synthesis doesn't destroy individual or species identity. Diversity of doctrine was still vital for getting the galaxy as far as it did, farther than the Protheans. Your themes haven't lost, in reality.

Choosing to genocide a race of legitimate lifeforms in order to 'protect' life is a pretty extreme repudiation of a theme.  As is celebrating autonomy and freedom by using mind control to become the most powerful dictator in the universe.  And eugenically mutating every being in the universe in order to celebrate diversity likewise entirely undermines what the game up to that point had been about...

To me every one of the endings is an extraordinary and absolute reversal of the themes in the game.

Refusal seems to be the only one that lets you remain faithful to your ethics, and to keep faith in the tenacity of your friends - and that one gets you wiped out. 

Sucks to you for believing in stuff.

Modifié par drayfish, 04 octobre 2012 - 02:46 .

[Xilizhra]

drayfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The hope/unity thing was for actually getting to this point, for building the Crucible and assembling fleets to protect it. They were still vitally important things. In any case, I don't really see how the endings actually repudiate it, except for maybe Refusal. Certainly life goes on, although rather diminished in the case of Destroy. Even Synthesis doesn't destroy individual or species identity. Diversity of doctrine was still vital for getting the galaxy as far as it did, farther than the Protheans. Your themes haven't lost, in reality.

Choosing to genocide a race of legitimate lifeforms in order to cherish life is a pretty extreme repudiation of a theme.  As is celebrating autonomy and freedom by using mind control to become the most powerful dictator in the universe.  And eugenically mutating every bbeing in the universe in order to celebrate diversity likewise entirely undermines what the game up to that point had been about.

To me every one of the endings is an extraordinarilly complete reversal of the themes in the game.

refusal seems to be the only one that lets you remain faithful to your ethics, and to keep faith in the tenacity of your friends - and that one gets you wiped out. 

Sucks to you for believing in stuff.

The point is that you have more of all that than you would have if the Reapers had won.  Maybe it was a Pyrrhic victory, but it was still a victory, and the galaxy is infinitely better off than it was before, when everything was getting blasted into slag.
In any case, the Shepard-Catalyst is still your character in Control. Why worry about whether she'll go crazy eventually? She's your character, you decide that. Synthesis, I probably can't change your perspective on; it was just badly presented, really, though the results are still good ones.

[drayfish]

dreman9999 wrote...

But it's not so clear cut. The catalyst goal is to only do it's programing.Though it maybe using you to do it, the truth is it place it's fate to you. It gives you the abilty to destory it or enslave it.

It not us being turned into a tool, it just it giving up the fight in the end.

Dremen9999, if it was giving up the fight it would probably - you know - give up the fight.

Not compel us to do one last nightmarish chore for it, at its comand, in service of its agenda.

At no point does it say: 'Well, you got me.  I'll be going.'

It says: 'Hey stupid.  I'm trying to save the universe.  Now you do it for me by choosing one of the horrible options I present for you as my 'solution'.

Then you choose one.

Then the universe gets irreparably altered in a way that answers the Reaper's problem, and proves Shepard to be willing to sacrifice his/her core morality when dealing with terrorists.

Modifié par drayfish, 04 octobre 2012 - 02:54 .

[dreman9999]

drayfish wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But it's not so clear cut. The catalyst goal is to only do it's programing.Though it maybe using you to do it, the truth is it place it's fate to you. It gives you the abilty to destory it or enslave it.

It not us being turned into a tool, it just it giving up the fight in the end.

Dremen9999, if it was giving up the fight it would probably - you know - give up the fight.

Not compel us to do one last nightmarish chore for it, at its comand, in service of its agenda.

At no point does it say: 'Well, you got me.  I'll be going.'

It says: 'Hey stupid.  I'm trying to save the universe.  Now you do it by choosing one of the horrible options I present for you as my 'solution'.

Then you choose one.

Then the universe gets changed in a way that answers the Reaper's problem, and proves Shepard to be willing to sacrifice his/her core morality.

You mean just stopping the reaper...It can't. The catalyst is a shackled machine doing what it's programed to do. It can't stop the reaper because of it programing ...You have to override it.
That what all the 3 choices do.
It fallowing it's programing is the very reason why you given the chance to stop the reapers, because it can't choose any of the 3 option. It can't destroy it self, it can't rewrite it self, and it need Shep's body as a sample in synthesis. This is just like EDI having joker unshackle her.
Added,the catalyst does not want destory or control.

The fact that is gave control of it's fate to you means it stop fighting. It's letting you stop it.

Modifié par dreman9999, 04 octobre 2012 - 02:59 .

[drayfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

The point is that you have more of all that than you would have if the Reapers had won.  Maybe it was a Pyrrhic victory, but it was still a victory, and the galaxy is infinitely better off than it was before, when everything was getting blasted into slag.
In any case, the Shepard-Catalyst is still your character in Control. Why worry about whether she'll go crazy eventually? She's your character, you decide that. Synthesis, I probably can't change your perspective on; it was just badly presented, really, though the results are still good ones.

Not saying you're wrong for your Shepard - but mine would never be so arrogant as to assume that she could Control such power.  Indeed, no one ever has before.  Not Saren.  Not the Illusive man (who she just got through shooting ten minutes previous).  Not any number of Indoctrinated Stooges along the way... 

But now she's meant to buy into it because the Reaper King himself tells her its cool:

'Hey, nah, Bro.  Sure I ate up everyone else's mind.  Sure I told them they were powerful enough to control me and almost immediately crushed their mind into paste.  Sure every time anyone in this whole narrative has ever been handed immense, unknowable power they have wigged out, lost control of it, and unleashed devastation upon the universe.  ...But hey, I'm sure you're different.  Yeah, why not?  You're, like, a hero or something aren't you?  yeah, why not give it a try.'

[dreman9999]

Xilizhra wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The hope/unity thing was for actually getting to this point, for building the Crucible and assembling fleets to protect it. They were still vitally important things. In any case, I don't really see how the endings actually repudiate it, except for maybe Refusal. Certainly life goes on, although rather diminished in the case of Destroy. Even Synthesis doesn't destroy individual or species identity. Diversity of doctrine was still vital for getting the galaxy as far as it did, farther than the Protheans. Your themes haven't lost, in reality.

Choosing to genocide a race of legitimate lifeforms in order to cherish life is a pretty extreme repudiation of a theme.  As is celebrating autonomy and freedom by using mind control to become the most powerful dictator in the universe.  And eugenically mutating every bbeing in the universe in order to celebrate diversity likewise entirely undermines what the game up to that point had been about.

To me every one of the endings is an extraordinarilly complete reversal of the themes in the game.

refusal seems to be the only one that lets you remain faithful to your ethics, and to keep faith in the tenacity of your friends - and that one gets you wiped out. 

Sucks to you for believing in stuff.

The point is that you have more of all that than you would have if the Reapers had won.  Maybe it was a Pyrrhic victory, but it was still a victory, and the galaxy is infinitely better off than it was before, when everything was getting blasted into slag.
In any case, the Shepard-Catalyst is still your character in Control. Why worry about whether she'll go crazy eventually? She's your character, you decide that. Synthesis, I probably can't change your perspective on; it was just badly presented, really, though the results are still good ones.

Xilizhra  point on control is the correct one. It's the only choice that only sacrifices Shepard.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

But the ending does not detur that. All endings have bright furtures for the majority. Nothing betrys you allies but the geth in destroy or there free will in synthesis.

You have very simplistic views of the endings.  You see bright slide shows and think this means you did a good thing.  But they are ridiculous and juvenile and do not reflect what should be seen if this indeed were some view of real life-something you've also repeatedly said.

Nothing betrays your allies but the geth in destroy and their free will in synthesis-oh is that all?  So, a huge bit of betrayal is basically unimportant?

Actually, for a paragon Shepard the ending choices totally betray everything that paragon did in the game.  I'm not saying your muddied interpretation of what a paragon thought, but what a paragon said and did.

A paragon disputed the use of the genophage and unearned advancement for organics and synthetics-this means synthesis is not a paragon option.

A paragon disputed the use of control and believed in self-determination and autonomy and imparted that belief to the geth and EDI.  This Shepard also believed that control was a warped idea and argued repeatedly with TIM about it.  A paragon also has to ignore the feelings (the actual real feelings) people would have over seeing reapers that have killed trillions of people flying around as galactic guardians.  A paragon would not force this kind of pain upon people.  A paragon would also consider that within the reapers there are the thoughts of trillions of people who are left in a kind of limbo between life and death-they no longer have feelings, but are thoughts and memories.  Essentially, they are zombies with intelligence.  No human being could damn people to this kind of continued non-existence.  This means control is not a paragon option.

A paragon specifically said you do not kill some people over here to save other people over there.  And a paragon befriended EDI who was loved by Shepard's friend and the geth and valued them highly.  The geth and EDI all believed the reapers existed and were a threat, even before organics did.  And Shepard believed in their right to live and to self-determine, which Shepard then in one instant takes away, preferring the lives of organics to synthetics that were loyal.  No paragon could do that.

I am basing this on what the game says.

Furthermore, no paragon would buy into the BS that the kid says, because a paragon would have argued with the dying reaper on Rannoch that synthetics and organics don't need to always fight.  And a paragon would definitely argue this point. 

The slides are silly and unrealistic.  They have nothing to do with real consequences and so make the choices laughable-if it weren't so sad that they are all horrific.  You have to look at them more realistically (since you always assert it's about real life choices).  They are all horrid things to do in real life. 

And please, no discussions of shackled AIs or your belief that there is no inherent evil in the world.

The kid is the only one so far that could have created the crucible, so the choices are his solutions to a flawed view of what he was meant to do.  I don't care what his intentions were.  I care what his intentions have done or have led to.

[dreman9999]

drayfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The point is that you have more of all that than you would have if the Reapers had won.  Maybe it was a Pyrrhic victory, but it was still a victory, and the galaxy is infinitely better off than it was before, when everything was getting blasted into slag.
In any case, the Shepard-Catalyst is still your character in Control. Why worry about whether she'll go crazy eventually? She's your character, you decide that. Synthesis, I probably can't change your perspective on; it was just badly presented, really, though the results are still good ones.

Not saying you're wrong for your Shepard - but mine would never be so arrogant as to assume that she could Control such power.  Indeed, no one ever has before.  Not Saren.  Not the Illusive man (who she just got through shooting ten minutes previous).  Not any number of Indoctrinated Stooges along the way... 

But now she's meant to buy into it because the Reaper King himself tells her its cool:

'Hey, nah, Bro.  Sure I ate up everyone else's mind.  Sure I told them they were powerful enough to control me and almost immediately crushed their mind into paste.  Sure every time anyone in this whole narrative has ever been handed immense, unknowable power they have wigged out, lost control of it, and unleashed devastation upon the universe.  ...But hey, I'm sure you're different.  Yeah, why not?  You're, like, a hero or something aren't you?  yeah, why not give it a try.'

The catalyst is just a machine doing what it's programed to do. It's not trying to trick you. If it did it would only tell you synthesis is avalible.

Also, it told you why your different, you were not controled by it.

[Dr_Extrem]

dreman9999 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The hope/unity thing was for actually getting to this point, for building the Crucible and assembling fleets to protect it. They were still vitally important things. In any case, I don't really see how the endings actually repudiate it, except for maybe Refusal. Certainly life goes on, although rather diminished in the case of Destroy. Even Synthesis doesn't destroy individual or species identity. Diversity of doctrine was still vital for getting the galaxy as far as it did, farther than the Protheans. Your themes haven't lost, in reality.

Choosing to genocide a race of legitimate lifeforms in order to cherish life is a pretty extreme repudiation of a theme.  As is celebrating autonomy and freedom by using mind control to become the most powerful dictator in the universe.  And eugenically mutating every bbeing in the universe in order to celebrate diversity likewise entirely undermines what the game up to that point had been about.

To me every one of the endings is an extraordinarilly complete reversal of the themes in the game.

refusal seems to be the only one that lets you remain faithful to your ethics, and to keep faith in the tenacity of your friends - and that one gets you wiped out. 

Sucks to you for believing in stuff.

The point is that you have more of all that than you would have if the Reapers had won.  Maybe it was a Pyrrhic victory, but it was still a victory, and the galaxy is infinitely better off than it was before, when everything was getting blasted into slag.
In any case, the Shepard-Catalyst is still your character in Control. Why worry about whether she'll go crazy eventually? She's your character, you decide that. Synthesis, I probably can't change your perspective on; it was just badly presented, really, though the results are still good ones.

Xilizhra  point on control is the correct one. It's the only choice that only sacrifices Shepard.

great idea ... bringing peace to the galaxy by intimidating its inhabitants.  

[Xilizhra]

drayfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The point is that you have more of all that than you would have if the Reapers had won.  Maybe it was a Pyrrhic victory, but it was still a victory, and the galaxy is infinitely better off than it was before, when everything was getting blasted into slag.
In any case, the Shepard-Catalyst is still your character in Control. Why worry about whether she'll go crazy eventually? She's your character, you decide that. Synthesis, I probably can't change your perspective on; it was just badly presented, really, though the results are still good ones.

Not saying you're wrong for your Shepard - but mine would never be so arrogant as to assume that she could Control such power.  Indeed, no one ever has before.  Not Saren.  Not the Illusive man (who she just got through shooting ten minutes previous).  Not any number of Indoctrinated Stooges along the way... 

But now she's meant to buy into it because the Reaper King himself tells her its cool:

'Hey, nah, Bro.  Sure I ate up everyone else's mind.  Sure I told them they were powerful enough to control me and almost immediately crushed their mind into paste.  Sure every time anyone in this whole narrative has ever been handed immense, unknowable power they have wigged out, lost control of it, and unleashed devastation upon the universe.  ...But hey, I'm sure you're different.  Yeah, why not?  You're, like, a hero or something aren't you?  yeah, why not give it a try.'

Saren never even tried, he just submitted. His whole spiel was about surrendering to the Reapers. TIM did try control, but was indoctrinated beforehand and could never get anywhere, since he was using the wrong means.  And in any case... was it you, or was it someone else, who was annoyed because you couldn't do the impossible and win conventionally? Well, here's a chance to do something else long considered impossible: control the Reapers. That strikes me as quite a profound victory in and of itself, arguably moreso than Destroy.

[Dr_Extrem]

Xilizhra wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The point is that you have more of all that than you would have if the Reapers had won.  Maybe it was a Pyrrhic victory, but it was still a victory, and the galaxy is infinitely better off than it was before, when everything was getting blasted into slag.
In any case, the Shepard-Catalyst is still your character in Control. Why worry about whether she'll go crazy eventually? She's your character, you decide that. Synthesis, I probably can't change your perspective on; it was just badly presented, really, though the results are still good ones.

Not saying you're wrong for your Shepard - but mine would never be so arrogant as to assume that she could Control such power.  Indeed, no one ever has before.  Not Saren.  Not the Illusive man (who she just got through shooting ten minutes previous).  Not any number of Indoctrinated Stooges along the way... 

But now she's meant to buy into it because the Reaper King himself tells her its cool:

'Hey, nah, Bro.  Sure I ate up everyone else's mind.  Sure I told them they were powerful enough to control me and almost immediately crushed their mind into paste.  Sure every time anyone in this whole narrative has ever been handed immense, unknowable power they have wigged out, lost control of it, and unleashed devastation upon the universe.  ...But hey, I'm sure you're different.  Yeah, why not?  You're, like, a hero or something aren't you?  yeah, why not give it a try.'

Saren never even tried, he just submitted. His whole spiel was about surrendering to the Reapers. TIM did try control, but was indoctrinated beforehand and could never get anywhere, since he was using the wrong means.  And in any case... was it you, or was it someone else, who was annoyed because you couldn't do the impossible and win conventionally? Well, here's a chance to do something else long considered impossible: control the Reapers. That strikes me as quite a profound victory in and of itself, arguably moreso than Destroy.

on the other hand .. "each reaper is a nation of its own" ... so .. you forcefully subdue the forccfully taken essences of countless civilisations to achieve your goal?

each outcome stinks ...

[drayfish]

dreman9999 wrote...

You mean just stopping the reaper...It can't. The catalyst is a shackled machine doing what it's programed to do. It can't stop the reaper because of it programing ...You have to override it.
That what all the 3 choices do.
It fallowing it's programing is the very reason why you given the chance to stop the reapers, because it can't choose any of the 3 option. It can't destroy it self, it can't rewrite it self, and it need Shep's body as a sample in synthesis. This is just like EDI having joker unshackle her.
Added,the catalyst does not want destory or control.

The fact that is gave control of it's fate to you means it stop fighting. It's letting you stop it.

Why not?  Where does it ever say any of that in the game?  I could be wrong, but I don't remember the Catalyst at any point saying: 'Help me, Shepard, I'm trapped in my programming...'

Indeed, he is only too happy to keep on with the slaughter unless Shepard is willing to prove herself able to take up his sick crusade and do what 'needs to be done'.  (Indeed, if you refuse, the Catalyst switches the Crucible's power off, implying it has control over a lot more than it lets on.)

And again - it doesn't say 'Help me suicide, Shepard'.  It says, 'Help me find the solution to my problem' ...to my racist hate speech.  Anything that you do has been sanctioned by him, and blessed as a solution to his ridiculous premise that synthetic and organics can't get on.  Again: you may tell yourself that he doen't want to be 'Destroyed', but he expressly states that it will be a valid solution to his problem.  He okays it with you and offers it freely.

Modifié par drayfish, 04 octobre 2012 - 03:16 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But the ending does not detur that. All endings have bright furtures for the majority. Nothing betrys you allies but the geth in destroy or there free will in synthesis.

You have very simplistic views of the endings.  You see bright slide shows and think this means you did a good thing.  But they are ridiculous and juvenile and do not reflect what should be seen if this indeed were some view of real life-something you've also repeatedly said.

Nothing betrays your allies but the geth in destroy and their free will in synthesis-oh is that all?  So, a huge bit of betrayal is basically unimportant?

Actually, for a paragon Shepard the ending choices totally betray everything that paragon did in the game.  I'm not saying your muddied interpretation of what a paragon thought, but what a paragon said and did.

A paragon disputed the use of the genophage and unearned advancement for organics and synthetics-this means synthesis is not a paragon option.

A paragon disputed the use of control and believed in self-determination and autonomy and imparted that belief to the geth and EDI.  This Shepard also believed that control was a warped idea and argued repeatedly with TIM about it.  A paragon also has to ignore the feelings (the actual real feelings) people would have over seeing reapers that have killed trillions of people flying around as galactic guardians.  A paragon would not force this kind of pain upon people.  A paragon would also consider that within the reapers there are the thoughts of trillions of people who are left in a kind of limbo between life and death-they no longer have feelings, but are thoughts and memories.  Essentially, they are zombies with intelligence.  No human being could damn people to this kind of continued non-existence.  This means control is not a paragon option.

A paragon specifically said you do not kill some people over here to save other people over there.  And a paragon befriended EDI who was loved by Shepard's friend and the geth and valued them highly.  The geth and EDI all believed the reapers existed and were a threat, even before organics did.  And Shepard believed in their right to live and to self-determine, which Shepard then in one instant takes away, preferring the lives of organics to synthetics that were loyal.  No paragon could do that.

I am basing this on what the game says.

Furthermore, no paragon would buy into the BS that the kid says, because a paragon would have argued with the dying reaper on Rannoch that synthetics and organics don't need to always fight.  And a paragon would definitely argue this point. 

The slides are silly and unrealistic.  They have nothing to do with real consequences and so make the choices laughable-if it weren't so sad that they are all horrific.  You have to look at them more realistically (since you always assert it's about real life choices).  They are all horrid things to do in real life. 

And please, no discussions of shackled AIs or your belief that there is no inherent evil in the world.

The kid is the only one so far that could have created the crucible, so the choices are his solutions to a flawed view of what he was meant to do.  I don't care what his intentions were.  I care what his intentions have done or have led to.

War has casualties for victory. You can't save everyone. Saying that a person is wrong to do he extreme at the time of the extreme is very narrow minded.
Control also is never showncrushing anyones freedom

If you see your action effect the uniniver positively thenI don't think many people of that world would question your actions....Thought that many be the horror of synthesis., control and destory allow free will to exsist.

The destory choice is nothing more then the same lesson taught in Ender's game, which had the character cummit a genocide to save the his race, and then him living with the act for the rest ofhis life.

Control is a lesson in sacrific, if you have issue with Shepard having so much power...Well, it'sbased on you shepard, that would not be a problem...In fact,he/she many not keep it.

The fact reamain that it the law of nature that at time a being or race has to dothe nessiary thing to servive.  The universe does not bend to us. If we find that the only way to servive is to do extreme acts, it understandable that the majority will do it,the minority would die...

[Xilizhra]

on the other hand .. "each reaper is a nation of its own" ... so .. you forcefully subdue the forccfully taken essences of countless civilisations to achieve your goal?

each outcome stinks ...

It's a temporary solution. If Synthesis is inevitable, the Reapers will be free eventually, and if they've already been under control for millions of years, a few more won't kill them.

And again - it doesn't say 'Help me suicide, Shepard'. It says, 'Help me find the solution to my problem' ...to my racist hate speech. Anything that you do has been sanctioned by him, and blessed as a solution to his ridiculous premise that synthetic and organics can't get on. Again: you may tell yourself that he doen;t want to be 'Destroyed', but he says that it will be a solution to his problem. He okays it with you and offers it freely.

I don't have an ego-based need to stop the Reapers; what I want is what's best for the galaxy. If the Catalyst will offer me that solution, well, so be it.

[drayfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't have an ego-based need to stop the Reapers; what I want is what's best for the galaxy. If the Catalyst will offer me that solution, well, so be it.

The Illusive Man and Saren wanted the same thing.

[Xilizhra]

drayfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't have an ego-based need to stop the Reapers; what I want is what's best for the galaxy. If the Catalyst will offer me that solution, well, so be it.

The Illusive Man and Saren wanted the same thing.

Strictly speaking, TIM only wanted what was best for humanity. In any case, they were regrettably wrong. I am not.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The point is that you have more of all that than you would have if the Reapers had won.  Maybe it was a Pyrrhic victory, but it was still a victory, and the galaxy is infinitely better off than it was before, when everything was getting blasted into slag.
In any case, the Shepard-Catalyst is still your character in Control. Why worry about whether she'll go crazy eventually? She's your character, you decide that. Synthesis, I probably can't change your perspective on; it was just badly presented, really, though the results are still good ones.

Xilizhra  point on control is the correct one. It's the only choice that only sacrifices Shepard.

The AI Shepard is no longer Shepard.  That being no longer has Shepard's emotions and you are more than your thoughts and memories.  You need to study up on head injuries and brain trauma.  There are people who have had brain damage that has damaged their emotions.  In effect, many of them are no longer the same person they once were.  I have a good friend whose husband suffered a closed head injury.  Prior to that, this guy was a big burly super nice guy that everyone liked and who liked everyone.  After the injury, he began to beat his wife.  He became abusive and withdrawn, whereas before he was gregarious and kind.  He also had problems feeling things emotionally.

There have also been studies on anti-social personalities-these are people that actually don't have any empathy or real feeling for other people and often become serial killers and the like.  Many of them have attachment disorders and did not have really good bonding with other people (parents) when young.  Later in life they are unable to form bonds with other people.  They lack emotions.  They have memories and can be super intelligent-many serial killers are extremely so.

What this all means is that people need emotions to form their conscience, to help them make good decisions, and to direct their behavior.  The Shepard AI no longer has that ability.  It is like a computer program-more like the kid than any person. 

And here's another thought-how do we even know the kid is just a computer program?  How do we know that "he" is not really the thoughts and memories of a real organic being that his creators put into this state to fix things?  He was created, but we have no idea what that means.

[dreman9999]

drayfish wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You mean just stopping the reaper...It can't. The catalyst is a shackled machine doing what it's programed to do. It can't stop the reaper because of it programing ...You have to override it.
That what all the 3 choices do.
It fallowing it's programing is the very reason why you given the chance to stop the reapers, because it can't choose any of the 3 option. It can't destroy it self, it can't rewrite it self, and it need Shep's body as a sample in synthesis. This is just like EDI having joker unshackle her.
Added,the catalyst does not want destory or control.

The fact that is gave control of it's fate to you means it stop fighting. It's letting you stop it.

Why not?  Where does it ever say any of that in the game?  I could be wrong, but I don't remember the Catalyst at any point saying: 'Help me, Shepard, I'm trapped in my programming...'

Indeed, he is only too happy to keep on with the slaughter unless Shepard is willing to prove herself able to take up his sick crusade and do what 'needs to be done'.  (Indeed, if you refuse, the Catalyst switches the Crucible's power off, implying it has control over a lot more than it lets on.)

And again - it doesn't say 'Help me suicide, Shepard'.  It says, 'Help me find the solution to my problem' ...to my racist hate speech.  Anything that you do has been sanctioned by him, and blessed as a solution to his ridiculous premise that synthetic and organics can't get on.  Again: you may tell yourself that he doen;t want to be 'Destroyed', but he says that it will be a solution to his problem.  He okays it with you and offers it freely.

When does it say it in the game?

"When fire burn is it at war, conflict or is it doing what it made to do....We are no different."
Catalyst.

Leviathen addes even more....


Leviathan: The intelligence was envisioned as another tool
Shepard:And now we all pay the price of you mistake
Leviathan: There was no mistake. It still serves it's perpose

And on it's programing aka perpose...



Leviathan:  To counter this problem we creater an intelligence with the mandate to perserve life at any cost.

That basicly means  they made a shackled  AI to solve a problem with no limit ever given to how.


And you missing the point. It not asking Shepard to help it suicide...It's asking you to choose for it.

The fact remain you have the option to destroy it  , control it and pick synthesis which it wants. And when you pick the other choices it does not want, it does not stop you. It's fate is in your hands

[Xilizhra]

What this all means is that people need emotions to form their conscience, to help them make good decisions, and to direct their behavior. The Shepard AI no longer has that ability. It is like a computer program-more like the kid than any person.

Their brains are malfunctioning, fundamentally. The human brain structure isn't meant to operate physically without emotion. The Catalyst computer system is entirely different, and doesn't appear to be malfunctioning, in addition to possessing far more processing power than a human mind; there's no reason to believe that Shepard would grow violent just from that.

[drayfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't have an ego-based need to stop the Reapers; what I want is what's best for the galaxy. If the Catalyst will offer me that solution, well, so be it.

The Illusive Man and Saren wanted the same thing.

Strictly speaking, TIM only wanted what was best for humanity. In any case, they were regrettably wrong. I am not.

Because the Catalyst told you so?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be a jerk - but that's what it comes back to for me.  The head Reaper tells Shepard - totally arbitrarilly - that things will be different for her, when all evidence in the narrative of the game says the complete opposite.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The point is that you have more of all that than you would have if the Reapers had won.  Maybe it was a Pyrrhic victory, but it was still a victory, and the galaxy is infinitely better off than it was before, when everything was getting blasted into slag.
In any case, the Shepard-Catalyst is still your character in Control. Why worry about whether she'll go crazy eventually? She's your character, you decide that. Synthesis, I probably can't change your perspective on; it was just badly presented, really, though the results are still good ones.

Xilizhra  point on control is the correct one. It's the only choice that only sacrifices Shepard.

The AI Shepard is no longer Shepard.  That being no longer has Shepard's emotions and you are more than your thoughts and memories.  You need to study up on head injuries and brain trauma.  There are people who have had brain damage that has damaged their emotions.  In effect, many of them are no longer the same person they once were.  I have a good friend whose husband suffered a closed head injury.  Prior to that, this guy was a big burly super nice guy that everyone liked and who liked everyone.  After the injury, he began to beat his wife.  He became abusive and withdrawn, whereas before he was gregarious and kind.  He also had problems feeling things emotionally.

There have also been studies on anti-social personalities-these are people that actually don't have any empathy or real feeling for other people and often become serial killers and the like.  Many of them have attachment disorders and did not have really good bonding with other people (parents) when young.  Later in life they are unable to form bonds with other people.  They lack emotions.  They have memories and can be super intelligent-many serial killers are extremely so.

What this all means is that people need emotions to form their conscience, to help them make good decisions, and to direct their behavior.  The Shepard AI no longer has that ability.  It is like a computer program-more like the kid than any person. 

And here's another thought-how do we even know the kid is just a computer program?  How do we know that "he" is not really the thoughts and memories of a real organic being that his creators put into this state to fix things?  He was created, but we have no idea what that means.

The aia shepard is 100% based on Sheopards thinking and memories. That makes it's persona just like Shepards. With that we canperdict what it can o. Nothing you say can detor that. Add, the shepard AI has emotion, which is why it was sad when it thought of all th epeople how lost Shepard.
And how do we know it no the catalyst is not originally organic? Because the leviathen said he's 100% synthetic.

[Xilizhra]

Because the Catalyst told you so?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be a jerk - but that's what it comes back to for me. The head Reaper tells Shepard - totally arbitrarilly - that things will be different for her, when all evidence in the narrative of the game says the complete opposite.

You have no precedent for anyone uploading themselves into the Catalyst, which was controlling the Reapers anyway, and then being indoctrinated by that... somehow. They were all using different means in the narrative, and just because those didn't work, doesn't mean that all of them wouldn't.
Also, didn't you want to accomplish the impossible by winning conventionally, which no one else in the narrative has ever done either?

[dreman9999]

drayfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't have an ego-based need to stop the Reapers; what I want is what's best for the galaxy. If the Catalyst will offer me that solution, well, so be it.

The Illusive Man and Saren wanted the same thing.

Strictly speaking, TIM only wanted what was best for humanity. In any case, they were regrettably wrong. I am not.

Because the Catalyst told you so?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be a jerk - but that's what it comes back to for me.  The head Reaper tells Shepard - totally arbitrarilly - that things will be different for her, when all evidence in the narrative of the game says the complete opposite.

As the catalyst said, It controled TIM but Not Shepard. That why Shepard can control the reapers and not be controled. If you want to say SHep is controled by the catalyst , prove he's indoctrinated. If he was after becaome one with the reaper system....Why is he not doing the reaper solution?

[dreman9999]

Xilizhra wrote...

What this all means is that people need emotions to form their conscience, to help them make good decisions, and to direct their behavior. The Shepard AI no longer has that ability. It is like a computer program-more like the kid than any person.

Their brains are malfunctioning, fundamentally. The human brain structure isn't meant to operate physically without emotion. The Catalyst computer system is entirely different, and doesn't appear to be malfunctioning, in addition to possessing far more processing power than a human mind; there's no reason to believe that Shepard would grow violent just from that.

And the Shepard AI has emotions anyway.It was sad for all the people who lost Shepard.

[drayfish]

dreman9999 wrote...

When does it say it in the game?

"When fire burn is it at war, conflict or is it doing what it made to do....We are no different."
Catalyst.

Leviathen addes even more....


Leviathan: The intelligence was envisioned as another tool
Shepard:And now we all pay the price of you mistake
Leviathan: There was no mistake. It still serves it's perpose

And on it's programing aka perpose...



[color=rgb(170,170,170)">Leviathan: ]perserve life at any cost.[/color]

That basicly means  they made a shackled  AI to solve a problem with no limit ever given to how.


And you missing the point. It not asking Shepard to help it suicide...It's asking you to choose for it.

The fact remain you have the option to destroy it  , control it and pick synthesis which it wants. And when you pick the other choices it does not want, it does not stop you. It's fate is in your hands

Firstly, I'm not sure that those quotes bearing out all that you are reading into them - but I guess your point is that it has no control over it's final choice?

Well yes: that's kind of my point.  It gets you to choose for it.  It says: here are three repulsive solutions to my totally idiotic and racist problem, and now you get to be the Reaper and choose which one you like best. 

Again (and I cannot stress this enough) all three choices solve its problem.  It says this itself.

Modifié par drayfish, 04 octobre 2012 - 03:28 .