543 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

drayfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Firstly I don't want him to 'win' because my Shepard would never mutate, massacre, or dominate the rest of the galaxy against their will. Secondly, I don't want him to 'win' because everything that he advocates is sick and intollerant and ignorant. I do not want him to 'win' by being proven right.

Brad Pitt guns that serial killer down. It is not a victory. He has sacrificed his morality, and proved a lunatic correct about the darkness in the human soul.

Maybe it's not an optimal victory, but the serial killer is no longer a threat, and who cares about what he thinks anyway? The important thing was stopping him, and that was accomplished. Ditto for the Catalyst. What the Catalyst thinks is irrelevant to me, whether it approves of my solution or not. The important thing is stopping the Reapers in the best manner possible.

And if we have sarcificed all of our morality and our ideals then what were we fighting for all along?  Just survival?  Just the right to keep breathing?

Wow, that's bleak.

If that were true than none of the moral choices we've made up to that point would be relevant at all.  We would be living in an existential vacuum in which life would be utterly devalued.  If we aren't living for anything, then what does any of it matter?  We may as well let the Reapers win, because all that would ultimately separates us is self-interest.

I prefer to believe that there was a point to all that inclusivity and hope - beyond just climbing over their corpses to save ourselves.

That's how life is...There are no heros or villians, Just people getting by in the world. If you set your set up with your own grand Idealism,  that idealism is going to shatter before you. All we can hope for is our actions, not matter how horrorid it may be can make a better tomorrow.

That is the truth of war. What ME3 ending shows you the truth of all acts in war. It's a bunch of horrible acts that is hoped to some how make things better.

[3DandBeyond]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because in making a choice that solves his problem you are picking something that is not in alignment with your goal. The kid's solution is based on solving what you should see as a false or not insurmountable problem. Any solution he has come up with has failed and at least one (the reapers) has been a killer, a horrific disgusting killer. And it's his latest solution until now. So, choosing something he wants or offers you is likely to be just as flawed as the reapers and even more overtly horrific. He ups the ante in an effort to solve what he can never solve. He says this himself. Inevitable is inevitable and it does not matter what solution he comes up with. His solutions have always failed, because they must or the problem does not exist.

My solution is to stop the Reapers. All of its means do that. And just because the Reapers were bad doesn't mean that every solution it offers has to be just as bad (and indeed, none are), to say nothing of the fact that the Catalyst doesn't actually control what the Crucible does.

These are not wins-they are gifts from a being created to solve something it sees as inevitable.  But the only way to ensure that it can solve it is to also ensure that it is inevitable which means it cannot ever have a real solution.  It's like a tiger chasing its tail.  You cut out that part of it in my comment where I specifically said that the solutions do not solve anything.  They can't or the problem does not exist.  You really need to think about that to understand why this all makes no sense.  If I say that something is inevitable that means there can never be something that will change it.  If I find a solution to it, then it never was inevitable.

You don't think the kid controls the crucible-well, ok let's go there.  The crucible didn't make the choices, they exist on the citadel and the kid does control the citadel.  However, who created the crucible plans.  And "I don't know" isn't a good answer.  Whoever did must have known about the kid (programming or whatever he is) and the reapers since it targets both.  Who knew about them?  No one ever got to where Shepard is with the kid before.  So the list of those that knew about the kid and the reapers are Shepard, Leviathan, the reapers, and the kid.  Leviathan said they didn't create the plans, Shepard didn't, and the reapers and the kid are essentially one and the same.  So, who created the crucible's plans?

No prior cycle knew the nature of the catalyst so they couldn't know what to create to act upon it.  This all leaves the kid as the only being that knew of himself and the reapers.  The choices and the crucible logically are extensions of the kid, unless and until further information says otherwise.  But as yet there's no way to be certain that these choices are not there to solve an unsolvable (but non-existent) problem.

[drayfish]

dreman9999 wrote...

1.The action is doing is forcing them to coexsist. The reaper solutio forces them to coexist.

2.That means it the fault of the programer.

3.Do you even not why we don't have conflict with them? Tell be the difference to how we treat EDI and how the quarians treated the geth after they became aware. You'll see way conflict with organic and synthetic happen once you do.

4.That not head cannon at all. EMS controls the results of the ending and that control by how damaged the crucible it when it's parked.

Why doyou thing we have so many versions of the destroy and control ending. The crucible controls that , not the catalyst.

1. Forces them indeed.  Forces them to have the same DNA - because that's the only way that peace can be achieved.  I have never heard anything so racist.

2. Again: so? It's still that intollerant adn genocidal agenda that is being answered. 

3. Sorry, but I have no idea what you are saying here.  All of the conflict that occurs between Synthetics and Organics gets resolved when people stop acting like terrified reactionary fools and communicate.  Once they are not both trying to kill one another because of fear, they work together and are much stronger for it.  ...Or, you know, you could just be like a Reaper and kill them on a racist hunch before they get the chance.

4.  Again, I'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your last point at all; but again: the Catalyst offers you the 'solutions' to its problem.  It cannot be any clearer than that.  Some vague notion about EMS does not excuse the fact that it says itself that these choices solve its problem.

[AlanC9]

Xilizhra wrote...

Again (and I cannot stress this enough) all three choices solve its problem. It says this itself.

Why do you feel like the Catalyst has to lose for you to win?

And why concede that Destroy solves anything for the Catalyst? He says himself peace won't last.

Anyway, what the Catalyst thinks and wants are of no interest.

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 octobre 2012 - 04:10 .

[Lars_Himself]

Control: renagade or paragon, this option gives TIM credibility which is the biggest crime of all. Anyone who chooses this clearly wasn' t paying attention.
Synthesis: decimates everything that every race stood for, which was diversification and the individual culture and beliefs of each species. Hegemony was the reason the Protheans failed. Why is it now a solution?
Destroy: the only viable option. It's been the goal since Tali revealed Saren's purpose at the beginng of the first game. It was the goal when Shepard was trying to convince TIM that he was indoctrinated for thinking that control, over destroy, was the proper course of action. What changed in 10 minutes? What were Hudson and Walters thinking?

Uhg.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

And if we have sarcificed all of our morality and our ideals then what were we fighting for all along?  Just survival?  Just the right to keep breathing?

Wow, that's bleak.

If that were true than none of the moral choices we've made up to that point would be relevant at all.  We would be living in an existential vacuum in which life would be utterly devalued.  If we aren't living for anything, then what does any of it matter?  We may as well let the Reapers win, because all that would ultimately separates us is self-interest.

I prefer to believe that there was a point to all that inclusivity and hope - beyond just climbing over their corpses to save ourselves.

That's how life is...There are no heros or villians, Just people getting by in the world. If you set your set up with your own grand Idealism,  that idealism is going to shatter before you. All we can hope for is our actions, not matter how horrorid it may be can make a better tomorrow.

That is the truth of war. What ME3 ending shows you the truth of all acts in war. It's a bunch of horrible acts that is hoped to some how make things better.

Oh my lord, this is the most horrendous thing you've ever said.  Have you not ever read about or heard of real people before?  I can only assume this is a lack of learning on your part or something because this is not the world I live in at all.

There are heroes and villains all over the place.  I feel so sad for you if you can't see that and I now understand why you don't give a care about the characters in this game.  You don't believe good and bad exists. 

There are people all the time who act heroically in doing even just the little things for getting by in the world.  Real heroes created my country and I daresay countries all over the world-many are attempting to do so at this time and are dying for just that concept.  They are striving for ideals and idealism is often what drives on people for the greater good of all.  If it wasn't for that kind of thing, humans would never have risen up at all and become anything or done anything.  Man would have been satisified to just enjoy immediate pleasures and never want for more.

Idealism is what makes people think that freedom is worth it, because some truths do exist for all within the rules people set up for themselves and not just those imposed upon them by someone who thinks they know what's best for all.


You said this, "All we can hope for is our actions, not matter how horrorid it may be can make a better tomorrow."  That's idealism-that's what it's about.  Hoping that what you do leads to a better tomorrow, but you don't choose demented evil things and then hope something good comes from it.  You think and work for something good to happen.

I suggest you take a long hard look at the real heroes that do exist around us-they're the people that risked their lives by going into Chernobyl and knew it was certain death after the accident there.  They are the people that went into the towers on 9/11 or those inside that pulled other people out or carried them, or even those that stayed behind with some who had no way out.  Real heroes are people who give up their lives to nurse sick children far from their home country (where they might actually have a great home), or those that try to teach others how to feed themselves.  They're volunteers who give of themselves daily so that others less fortunate have something, food, a kind word, a companion. 

Real villains exist too, but I'd rather not focus on them.  I am aghast and appalled that you don't think real heroes exist or that idealism isn't a good thing.  I feel so sad for you.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 octobre 2012 - 04:22 .

[dreman9999]

drayfish wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.The action is doing is forcing them to coexsist. The reaper solutio forces them to coexist.

2.That means it the fault of the programer.

3.Do you even not why we don't have conflict with them? Tell be the difference to how we treat EDI and how the quarians treated the geth after they became aware. You'll see way conflict with organic and synthetic happen once you do.

4.That not head cannon at all. EMS controls the results of the ending and that control by how damaged the crucible it when it's parked.

Why doyou thing we have so many versions of the destroy and control ending. The crucible controls that , not the catalyst.

1. Forces them indeed.  Forces them to have the same DNA - because that's the only way that peace can be achieved.  I have never heard anything so racist.

2. Again: so? It's still that intollerant adn genocidal agenda that is being answered. 

3. Sorry, but I have no idea what you are saying here.  All of the conflict that occurs between Synthetics and Organics gets resolved when people stop acting like terrified reactionary fools and communicate.  Once they are not both trying to kill one another because of fear, they work together and are much stronger for it.  ...Or, you know, you could just be like a Reaper and kill them on a racist hunch before they get the chance.

4.  Again, I'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your last point at all; but again: the Catalyst offers you the 'solutions' to its problem.  It cannot be any clearer than that.  Some vague notion about EMS does not excuse the fact that it says itself that these choices solve its problem.

1. Forced is also, making them come together as a reaper. I' m not saying it right to do so or any. Just that it goal is to force quality.

2.It goal is not genocide. It does nto want to kill anyone, it want to perserve races. It never kills off a race.

3.Look at how we treat EDI and how the quarans treat the geth when they became self aware. That not hard to understand.

4.Destroyand control are not solution to it porblem. It self, destory and control do not solve anything it wants.
You missin ghe fact that the ems level effect what the crucible does not the catalyst.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

And if we have sarcificed all of our morality and our ideals then what were we fighting for all along?  Just survival?  Just the right to keep breathing?

Wow, that's bleak.

If that were true than none of the moral choices we've made up to that point would be relevant at all.  We would be living in an existential vacuum in which life would be utterly devalued.  If we aren't living for anything, then what does any of it matter?  We may as well let the Reapers win, because all that would ultimately separates us is self-interest.

I prefer to believe that there was a point to all that inclusivity and hope - beyond just climbing over their corpses to save ourselves.

That's how life is...There are no heros or villians, Just people getting by in the world. If you set your set up with your own grand Idealism,  that idealism is going to shatter before you. All we can hope for is our actions, not matter how horrorid it may be can make a better tomorrow.

That is the truth of war. What ME3 ending shows you the truth of all acts in war. It's a bunch of horrible acts that is hoped to some how make things better.

Oh my lord, this is the most horrendous thing you've ever said.  Have you not ever read about or heard of real people before?  I can only assume this is a lack of learning on your part or something because this is not the world I live in at all.

There are heroes and villains all over the place.  I feel so sad for you if you can't see that and I now understand why you don't give a care about the characters in this game.  You don't believe good and bad exists. 

There are people all the time who act heroically in doing even just the little things for getting by in the world.  Real heroes created my country and I daresay countries all over the world-many are attempting to do so at this time and are dying for just that concept.  They are striving for ideals and idealism is often what drives on people for the greater good of all.  If it wasn't for that kind of thing, humans would never have risen up at all and become anything or done anything.  Man would have been satisified to just enjoy immediate pleasures and never want for more.

Idealism is what makes people think that freedom is worth it, because some truths do exist for all within the rules people set up for themselves and not just those imposed upon them by someone who thinks they know what's best for all.


You said this, "All we can hope for is our actions, not matter how horrorid it may be can make a better tomorrow."  That's idealism-that's what it's about.  Hoping that what you do leads to a better tomorrow, but you don't choose demented evil things and then hope something good comes from it.  You think and work for something good to happen.

I suggest you take a long hard look at the real heroes that do exist around us-they're the people that risked their lives by going into Chernobyl and knew it was certain death after the accident there.  They are the people that went into the towers on 9/11 or those inside that pulled other people out or carried them, or even those that stayed behind with some who had no way out.  Real heroes are people who give up their lives to nurse sick children far from their home country (where they might actually have a great home), or those that try to teach others how to feed themselves.  They're volunteers who give of themselves daily so that others less fortunate have something, food, a kind word, a companion. 

Real villains exist too, but I'd rather not focus on them.  I am aghast and appalled that you don't think real heroes exist or that idealism isn't a good thing.  I feel so sad for you.

Please, This is a world of many truths and many perspectives. Todays heros can become tomorrows villains. Todays  villians can become tomorrows heros. Te people we called villians can called heros by others. People we call villian are called heros by others.

It all based on perpective and morality. Perpective and morality is inherite different. Understand that what you beleive is not what other will belives. The woth is not made of palidins and ceral killers. It made up by people tring to get by.

Every person that called that act of 9/11 evil, we have many people who called it the act of good. That's how warped perspective can be.

The world is not as singleminded as you think.

[drayfish]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Forced is also, making them come together as a reaper. I' m not saying it right to do so or any. Just that it goal is to force quality.

2.It goal is not genocide. It does nto want to kill anyone, it want to perserve races. It never kills off a race.

3.Look at how we treat EDI and how the quarans treat the geth when they became self aware. That not hard to understand.

4.Destroyand control are not solution to it porblem. It self, destory and control do not solve anything it wants.
You missin ghe fact that the ems level effect what the crucible does not the catalyst.

Okay - I feel like I have already refuted all of these statements and you are just repeating them back to me without alteration.

1. I'm sorry, I do not understand what distinction you are making.  Even by your definition this is racism.

2. This seems like crazy Reaper logic.  Those races seem pretty exterminated to me.

3. Exactly my point.  And exactly why embracing the Reaper's beliefs that we should just kill them first is so absurd.

4. Yet again: you keep saying this, but nothing in text supports it.  Quite the opposite in fact.  The Catalyst himself says all three choices work for him.

[Getorex]

dreman9999 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But it's not so clear cut. The catalyst goal is to only do it's programing.Though it maybe using you to do it, the truth is it place it's fate to you. It gives you the abilty to destory it or enslave it.

It not us being turned into a tool, it just it giving up the fight in the end.

Dremen9999, if it was giving up the fight it would probably - you know - give up the fight.

Not compel us to do one last nightmarish chore for it, at its comand, in service of its agenda.

At no point does it say: 'Well, you got me.  I'll be going.'

It says: 'Hey stupid.  I'm trying to save the universe.  Now you do it by choosing one of the horrible options I present for you as my 'solution'.

Then you choose one.

Then the universe gets changed in a way that answers the Reaper's problem, and proves Shepard to be willing to sacrifice his/her core morality.

You mean just stopping the reaper...It can't. The catalyst is a shackled machine doing what it's programed to do. It can't stop the reaper because of it programing ...You have to override it.
That what all the 3 choices do.
It fallowing it's programing is the very reason why you given the chance to stop the reapers, because it can't choose any of the 3 option. It can't destroy it self, it can't rewrite it self, and it need Shep's body as a sample in synthesis. This is just like EDI having joker unshackle her.
Added,the catalyst does not want destory or control.

The fact that is gave control of it's fate to you means it stop fighting. It's letting you stop it.

Stopping a Reaper (or a thousand Reapers) is easy if one simply carries forward from game lore.  Eezo and dark energy manipulation, as explained and used in the game gives you the ultimate weapon for wiping out Reapers quite handily.  Someone in another thread brought this up and I have to agree (don't recall who it was):

Use element zero to negate the mass of, say, a 15 km wide rock.  Accelerate the rock out of an eezo cannon at superluminal speed into a Reaper.  Done.  See, a rock that size accelerated to lightspeed and beyond carries more than enough energy to pulverize an entire planet.  It will make easy work of a mere Reaper. 

"Fire!" BOOOF! Vapors.  "Fire!" BOOOF! More vapors.  Rinse and repeat.  Kicked-ass on the Reapers right there using basic physics of eezo as explained in the game.

Modifié par Getorex, 04 octobre 2012 - 04:34 .

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Forced is also, making them come together as a reaper. I' m not saying it right to do so or any. Just that it goal is to force quality.

2.It goal is not genocide. It does nto want to kill anyone, it want to perserve races. It never kills off a race.

3.Look at how we treat EDI and how the quarans treat the geth when they became self aware. That not hard to understand.

4.Destroyand control are not solution to it porblem. It self, destory and control do not solve anything it wants.
You missin ghe fact that the ems level effect what the crucible does not the catalyst.

Number 2 really ignores what Harbinger and Sovereign both stated.  They indicate that they like causing pain and killing.  And it is killing people, it kills many and is not ascending or preserving or making jam out of all of them. 

There is also specific dialogue that Harbinger has that indicates they find races other than humans to be useless.   When the kid says they preserve the most advanced races, he doesn't really specify what they use to determine which ones are the most advanced and how many races that includes, but Harbinger said the Turians are too primitive.  That kind of indicates he thinks they aren't advanced enough, but they turn them into reaper variants.

And killing is killing.  You should read, "Johnny Got His Gun".  However, in ME the reapers are killing bodies and humans at least do feel that the killing of a body is killing.  A dead body cannot support a mind which means it dies as well.  And it's garbage to sit there and say, "but they're preserved".  They no longer exist as people, the reapers killed them.  I don't care what the kid thinks he's doing.  He's wrong and the choices are his solutions to continue doing wrong things to solve a bogus problem.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 octobre 2012 - 04:34 .

[dreman9999]

Lars_Himself wrote...

Control: renagade or paragon, this option gives TIM credibility which is the biggest crime of all. Anyone who chooses this clearly wasn' t paying attention.
Synthesis: decimates everything that every race stood for, which was diversification and the individual culture and beliefs of each species. Hegemony was the reason the Protheans failed. Why is it now a solution?
Destroy: the only viable option. It's been the goal since Tali revealed Saren's purpose at the beginng of the first game. It was the goal when Shepard was trying to convince TIM that he was indoctrinated for thinking that control, over destroy, was the proper course of action. What changed in 10 minutes? What were Hudson and Walters thinking?

Uhg.

What TIM does is irrelivent to what you do. If you feel that wayaboty control, maybe you should give back the ship he gave you and that updated body.

If you don'tlike synthesis, don'tpick it.

Thr catalyst does not control the crucible. It was premade to kill AI's. It is a weapon made to kill the reapers...which are AI's.

[drayfish]

dreman9999 wrote...

Please, This is a world of many truths and many perspectives. Todays heros can become tomorrows villains. Todays  villians can become tomorrows heros. Te people we called villians can called heros by others. People we call villian are called heros by others.

It all based on perpective and morality. Perpective and morality is inherite different. Understand that what you beleive is not what other will belives. The woth is not made of palidins and ceral killers. It made up by people tring to get by.

Every person that called that act of 9/11 evil, we have many people who called it the act of good. That's how warped perspective can be.

The world is not as singleminded as you think.

Okay. 

If yours is a world of such complete moral relativity then nothing that I have to say will mean anything to you, and our experiences of the game are so different we will never come to understand each other's prespective.

Sorry to have wasted both of our time.

Modifié par drayfish, 04 octobre 2012 - 04:38 .

[3DandBeyond]

drayfish wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Forced is also, making them come together as a reaper. I' m not saying it right to do so or any. Just that it goal is to force quality.

2.It goal is not genocide. It does nto want to kill anyone, it want to perserve races. It never kills off a race.

3.Look at how we treat EDI and how the quarans treat the geth when they became self aware. That not hard to understand.

4.Destroyand control are not solution to it porblem. It self, destory and control do not solve anything it wants.
You missin ghe fact that the ems level effect what the crucible does not the catalyst.

Okay - I feel like I have already refuted all of these statements and you are just repeating them back to me without alteration.

1. I'm sorry, I do not understand what distinction you are making.  Even by your definition this is racism.

2. This seems like crazy Reaper logic.  Those races seem pretty exterminated to me.

3. Exactly my point.  And exactly why embracing the Reaper's beliefs that we should just kill them first is so absurd.

4. Yet again: you keep saying this, but nothing in text supports it.  Quite the opposite in fact.  The Catalyst himself says all three choices work for him.

Unfortunately, this is quite a common happening.  You won't ever get a real answer or understanding here.  I've been here many times before.  I just don't understand this kind of thinking.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 octobre 2012 - 04:56 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Forced is also, making them come together as a reaper. I' m not saying it right to do so or any. Just that it goal is to force quality.

2.It goal is not genocide. It does nto want to kill anyone, it want to perserve races. It never kills off a race.

3.Look at how we treat EDI and how the quarans treat the geth when they became self aware. That not hard to understand.

4.Destroyand control are not solution to it porblem. It self, destory and control do not solve anything it wants.
You missin ghe fact that the ems level effect what the crucible does not the catalyst.

Number 2 really ignores what Harbinger and Sovereign both stated.  They indicate that they like causing pain and killing.  And it is killing people, it kills many and is not ascending or preserving or making jam out of all of them. 

There is also specific dialogue that Harbinger has that indicates they find races other than humans to be useless.   When the kid says they preserve the most advanced races, he doesn't really specify what they use to determine which ones are the most advanced and how many races that includes, but Harbinger said the Turians are too primitive.  That kind of indicates he thinks they aren't advanced enough, but they turn them into reaper variants.

And killing is killing.  You should read, "Johnny Got His Gun".  However, in ME the reapers are killing bodies and humans at least do feel that the killing of a body is killing.  A dead body cannot support a mind which means it dies as well.  And it's garbage to sit there and say, "but they're preserved".  They no longer exist as people, the reapers killed them.  I don't care what the kid thinks he's doing.  He's wrong and the choices are his solutions to continue doing wrong things to solve a bogus problem.

2. Harbinger stated that the reapers wanted to uplift us and acend  us. Sovergn never gave a clear statement about whatthe reapers wanted...Just a fighting is useless speech.

Also, th other race he states are use less are made into destoryers...
http://masseffect.wi...Reaper_Variants

DESTROYERS are 160 meters long and, in astounding numbers, make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet. They engage cruisers and other, smaller ships, as well as communications posts and enemy command centers. Research suggests destroyers are created from those species that are not harvested to make capital ships.

And as for killing is killing. It a matter of perpective....You call it killing....But...

They call it reshaping.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Lars_Himself wrote...
Synthesis: decimates everything that every race stood for, which was diversification and the individual culture and beliefs of each species. Hegemony was the reason the Protheans failed. Why is it now a solution?

I understand the objections to Synthesis based on its coercive aspects, but I don't undertand this. Are you just assuming that what we see in the ending slides is a lie, or naivete on EDI's part? Because I saw nothing to indicate that diversity and individuality are destroyed if you pick Synthesis. Yes, everyone now has glowing green eyes, and (I think) quarians are not using their masks any more, but so what? Everyone also had brains and speech mechanisms before Synthesis, and that hardly destroyed diversity or individuality.

[SneakyDuc]

The reapers seek to preserve life by destroying the individual, synthesis does not. They are not the same.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...
Please, This is a world of many truths and many perspectives. Todays heros can become tomorrows villains. Todays  villians can become tomorrows heros. Te people we called villians can called heros by others. People we call villian are called heros by others.

It all based on perpective and morality. Perpective and morality is inherite different. Understand that what you beleive is not what other will belives. The woth is not made of palidins and ceral killers. It made up by people tring to get by.

Every person that called that act of 9/11 evil, we have many people who called it the act of good. That's how warped perspective can be.

The world is not as singleminded as you think.

I specifically did not get into the politics of a single thing I listed.  Doing something to save another person's life at the risk of your own is heroic.  It's totally ignorant of you to inject a political slant to something where I did not place one.

People pull other people out of burning cars at the risk of their own lives.  So, by your logic (lack of), tomorrow someone will say that was an evil thing to do.

This is demented.  Yes, there are people that are trying to just get by in this world.  Sure thing.  But there are also many that are not within this seeming gray area in which you think all people exist.  The world does indeed include serial killers and heroes.  You said heroes and villains don't exist but they do.

And there is always a certain level of morality upon which a civilized society exists or it is anarchy and hedonistic.  You don't just run around killing people for no reason and there's no way you can parse that to say that in any way follows any kind of moral code-to allow that to exist.

It is that within the game you are given a moral code to follow, you are shown heroes and villains.  If you don't believe they exist in real life (god help me, please never live near me), they do exist within the game.  And a paragon is given specific dialogue relating to that that differentiates that person from a renegade.  That is the morality that must be followed, but isn't at the end.  Those are ME's society's laws and Shepard's own internal rules, values, and morality.  Not mine, not yours, but Shepard's.  To make a choice goes against Shepard's stated morality.  That can't be more clear.  If you make a choice, you are ignoring Shepard's character and saying, "anything goes".  You are saying something Shepard never believed in-that some kind of survival, no matter the cost, is just great.  And you are also saying that that Shepard wouldn't even want to know what the full cost is beforehand and would grab onto a poorly explained choice because it sounds ok.

Morality was explained in the game.  I don't care what your personal morality is at all.

[Getorex]

SneakyDuc wrote...

The reapers seek to preserve life by destroying the individual, synthesis does not. They are not the same.

We should seek to preserve endangered species by destroying them.  See how that works out.

[SneakyDuc]

Getorex wrote...

SneakyDuc wrote...

The reapers seek to preserve life by destroying the individual, synthesis does not. They are not the same.

We should seek to preserve endangered species by destroying them.  See how that works out.

Or we should go out and kill the creatures that are harmful to them. You know I was talking about the cycles that the ultimate continuation of life until the point that the catalyst was activated was dependant on the reapers destruction of the cycle before.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...
2. Harbinger stated that the reapers wanted to uplift us and acend  us. Sovergn never gave a clear statement about whatthe reapers wanted...Just a fighting is useless speech.

Also, th other race he states are use less are made into destoryers...
http://masseffect.wi...Reaper_Variants

[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)">DESTROYERS are 160 meters long and, in astounding numbers, make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet. They engage cruisers and other, smaller ships, as well as communications posts and enemy command centers. Research suggests ] are created from those species that are not harvested to make capital ships.[/color]

And as for killing is killing. It a matter of perpective....You call it killing....But...

They call it reshaping.

Harbinger also enjoyed taunting Shepard by saying he knew he was hurting him/her and wanted to cause pain.  Sovereign said the reapers would destroy people.  It's not useless speech, until the end of ME3 which tended to render everything useless.

I don't care what they made them into.  They killed them.

So, now it's reshaping.  That's really cute.  So, if someone came into your home and wanted to reshape you with a .357 magnum and your mind was acended to death and whatever may or may not come after, then they're doing  something that's ok as long as they mean well-maybe someone used mind control and shackled them into reshaping you.

A dead body is dead.  We are our bodies as well as our thoughts and memories.  If Shepard loves say, Tali (oh right they don't make reapers out of quarians, they just kill them).  So, say Shepard loves Miranda.  No doubt he loves her body (and hopefully her mind).  If Miranda is ascended, I really don't think they will feel the same way about each other.  Shepard will mourn her because she's dead.  She no longer exists as Miranda.

[dreman9999]

drayfish wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Forced is also, making them come together as a reaper. I' m not saying it right to do so or any. Just that it goal is to force quality.

2.It goal is not genocide. It does nto want to kill anyone, it want to perserve races. It never kills off a race.

3.Look at how we treat EDI and how the quarans treat the geth when they became self aware. That not hard to understand.

4.Destroyand control are not solution to it porblem. It self, destory and control do not solve anything it wants.
You missin ghe fact that the ems level effect what the crucible does not the catalyst.

Okay - I feel like I have already refuted all of these statements and you are just repeating them back to me without alteration.

1. I'm sorry, I do not understand what distinction you are making.  Even by your definition this is racism.

2. This seems like crazy Reaper logic.  Those races seem pretty exterminated to me.

3. Exactly my point.  And exactly why embracing the Reaper's beliefs that we should just kill them first is so absurd.

4. Yet again: you keep saying this, but nothing in text supports it.  Quite the opposite in fact.  The Catalyst himself says all three choices work for him.

1. Both the reaper solution and synthesis solution force a solution onto all advance life. That make them not different  except for the reaper solution changes the forms of the beings. I'm saying the catalyst was always forcing it solutions on us before synthesis.

2.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqtAHNQT3-w
It a matter of perpective. The act of making a reaper calls for uploading orgainic mind into it and changing the organics form.
It realy lies with the question of if Death lies in the death of body or mind. If it body only, then we would not have terms like brain death.

But it matter not if we arealve or dead after the procces. All that matter is that we do not want it to happen.

3.You not getting it. The cause of the orgainc /synthetic conflict is because how we treat each other...What garantees we will always  treat each other with bolevilence?

4.No he does not...Added his program it to prserve all life, not just organic. It can't kill off synthetic life.
This is him say destory does not work for him...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnoTHbvl2Wg&feature=player_detailpage#t=466s
This is him saying control does not work for him...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XNyvUblf28&feature=player_detailpage#t=554s

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
2. Harbinger stated that the reapers wanted to uplift us and acend  us. Sovergn never gave a clear statement about whatthe reapers wanted...Just a fighting is useless speech.

Also, th other race he states are use less are made into destoryers...
http://masseffect.wi...Reaper_Variants

[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)">DESTROYERS are 160 meters long and, in astounding numbers, make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet. They engage cruisers and other, smaller ships, as well as communications posts and enemy command centers. Research suggests ] are created from those species that are not harvested to make capital ships.[/color]

And as for killing is killing. It a matter of perpective....You call it killing....But...

They call it reshaping.

Harbinger also enjoyed taunting Shepard by saying he knew he was hurting him/her and wanted to cause pain.  Sovereign said the reapers would destroy people.  It's not useless speech, until the end of ME3 which tended to render everything useless.

I don't care what they made them into.  They killed them.

So, now it's reshaping.  That's really cute.  So, if someone came into your home and wanted to reshape you with a .357 magnum and your mind was acended to death and whatever may or may not come after, then they're doing  something that's ok as long as they mean well-maybe someone used mind control and shackled them into reshaping you.

A dead body is dead.  We are our bodies as well as our thoughts and memories.  If Shepard loves say, Tali (oh right they don't make reapers out of quarians, they just kill them).  So, say Shepard loves Miranda.  No doubt he loves her body (and hopefully her mind).  If Miranda is ascended, I really don't think they will feel the same way about each other.  Shepard will mourn her because she's dead.  She no longer exists as Miranda.

The reapers are based on the levianhens. Ofcouse they will take some of the races personas. That does not change the fact the reaper want to up lift organics.

And you metaphor is wrong. My mind has to be alive for it to  work. If my mind is dead that it not the same as what the reapers are doing.

A better metapher is what if someone attacked you, destroyed your body but kept your mind alive, with full brain functions, in a jar.

ANd you seem not to get that the reaper up load the mind of organics into reapers.

Modifié par dreman9999, 04 octobre 2012 - 05:01 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Please, This is a world of many truths and many perspectives. Todays heros can become tomorrows villains. Todays  villians can become tomorrows heros. Te people we called villians can called heros by others. People we call villian are called heros by others.

It all based on perpective and morality. Perpective and morality is inherite different. Understand that what you beleive is not what other will belives. The woth is not made of palidins and ceral killers. It made up by people tring to get by.

Every person that called that act of 9/11 evil, we have many people who called it the act of good. That's how warped perspective can be.

The world is not as singleminded as you think.

I specifically did not get into the politics of a single thing I listed.  Doing something to save another person's life at the risk of your own is heroic.  It's totally ignorant of you to inject a political slant to something where I did not place one.

People pull other people out of burning cars at the risk of their own lives.  So, by your logic (lack of), tomorrow someone will say that was an evil thing to do.

This is demented.  Yes, there are people that are trying to just get by in this world.  Sure thing.  But there are also many that are not within this seeming gray area in which you think all people exist.  The world does indeed include serial killers and heroes.  You said heroes and villains don't exist but they do.

And there is always a certain level of morality upon which a civilized society exists or it is anarchy and hedonistic.  You don't just run around killing people for no reason and there's no way you can parse that to say that in any way follows any kind of moral code-to allow that to exist.

It is that within the game you are given a moral code to follow, you are shown heroes and villains.  If you don't believe they exist in real life (god help me, please never live near me), they do exist within the game.  And a paragon is given specific dialogue relating to that that differentiates that person from a renegade.  That is the morality that must be followed, but isn't at the end.  Those are ME's society's laws and Shepard's own internal rules, values, and morality.  Not mine, not yours, but Shepard's.  To make a choice goes against Shepard's stated morality.  That can't be more clear.  If you make a choice, you are ignoring Shepard's character and saying, "anything goes".  You are saying something Shepard never believed in-that some kind of survival, no matter the cost, is just great.  And you are also saying that that Shepard wouldn't even want to know what the full cost is beforehand and would grab onto a poorly explained choice because it sounds ok.

Morality was explained in the game.  I don't care what your personal morality is at all.

I saying that the world is not absolute. Just because a peron save people does not mean inthe furture they stay so. Heck, we may find a fire fighter who save live goes home and abuse his kids.

Im not say the cahnge will sudden happen just becaus, just the event of life can change how a person feels an acts.
Hell, in ww2 we call russia allies and later we find ourselves fighting a giganitc cold war for decades. Our country stated out seeing britian as enemies , now they are our closest allies.

That how the world can change. It all based on perspective. The world is not black or white , differnet shades of grays. Some grays are darker, some are lighter...But all greys.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...


Harbinger also enjoyed taunting Shepard by saying he knew he was hurting him/her and wanted to cause pain.  Sovereign said the reapers would destroy people.  It's not useless speech, until the end of ME3 which tended to render everything useless.

I don't care what they made them into.  They killed them.

So, now it's reshaping.  That's really cute.  So, if someone came into your home and wanted to reshape you with a .357 magnum and your mind was acended to death and whatever may or may not come after, then they're doing  something that's ok as long as they mean well-maybe someone used mind control and shackled them into reshaping you.

A dead body is dead.  We are our bodies as well as our thoughts and memories.  If Shepard loves say, Tali (oh right they don't make reapers out of quarians, they just kill them).  So, say Shepard loves Miranda.  No doubt he loves her body (and hopefully her mind).  If Miranda is ascended, I really don't think they will feel the same way about each other.  Shepard will mourn her because she's dead.  She no longer exists as Miranda.

The reapers are based on the levianhens. Ofcouse they will take some of the races personas. That does not change the fact the reaper want to up lift organics.

And you metaphor is wrong. My mind has to be alive to work. If my mind is dead that it not the same as what the reapers are.

A better metapher is what if someone acted you, destroyed you body but kept your mind alive, with full brain functions in a jar.

ANd you seem not to get that the reaper up load the mind of organics into reapers.

Huh?  I know the reapers are based on the Leviathans.  I never said anything about that.  I think you just have a list of stuff to post that you copy and paste that has nothing to do with what someone else posts, because you make no sense most of the time.

Even the Leviathans understood dying-that's why they created the kid, to work out a solution so that didn't happen.  The reapers said they wanted to kill people until someone wrote the Arrival and so on.  The fact the kid's creators didn't want to be uplifted, should have told him something.  And don't start in about shackling-if he is, he's the worst shackled AI ever. 

Yeah, so you didn't like my metaphor even though their ascension is most likely a metaphor for life after death which is why I used it.  And now, you come up with an even worse one.  Who on Earth would want to be kept as a mind in a jar?  Did you play Overlord?  That is exactly what it's like.

And you seem to love to tell people that they don't understand things that they clearly do.  No rational person is going to say that having their mind (not feelings, not emotions) uploaded into a reaper is anything like being alive.  All that they were as people is dead.  It's like taking raw computing power and adding capacity to it-that is all.