39 réponses à ce sujet

[Grovermancer]

After a several-year hiatus, tried DA2 again.  Had to install a Mage-power-up Mod to justify it.

 

Anyhow, I’m not gonna waste my time rehashing the (obvious-to-honest-humans) deficits of DA2…

Actually, yeah I will revisit the main ones:

1.  Combat:  weapons should actually weigh something, people should move like real people, and I should respect how everyone functions:  humans do not strike instantly with weightless weapons and leap around herky-jerky faster than you can see  (you all reading this?  You look more like the ‘StarWarsKid’ than you do the anime dude you think you look like – stop thinking DA2 combat kinesthetics are realistic; all you do is reveal you play with nerf weapons and you’ve never snatched a kettlebell or fought in a cage – don’t worry, neither have most of current BW employees)

2.  Re:  the DA mythos and lore:  you need to create this for newcomers: cut-scenes that convey the overall meta-themes that are being affected; the stuff taking place in Kirkwall is influenced by/is influencing the whole damned world of Thedas!  (but as a player, you wouldn’t know it, visually.  Codex entries and novels don’t cut it for newcomers!)   “What is the ‘blight?’  Who are the Qunari, and what have they done/why are they feared?  Why the antagonism between Mages/Templars?  (and why is Kirkwall so mess’d up? – Corypheus)?”

3.  Re-used  scenery is nothing less than copout horishness.  Everyone knows that the hero’s journey
involves newfound geographic locations that are representative of inward, archetypal states and realizations. 
DAO had this.  All legit hero’s journey tales have this.  DA2 did not.  PUT IT BACK INTO DA3.  (DA2 actually could have had this, despite largely being in a single location)

4.  I don’t expect a virtual-reality device, but your false choices with Merideth/Orisino is just tacked-on.  At least in DAO, ‘smaller’ choices carried more in-world weight and had actual impact, on both the world at large, and on your own character development.  Werewolves vs elves, templars vs mages, interactionsw/ party, etc.

 

 I’m guessing the majority of what’s left on the DA forums are DA2 fanatics, sycophants, and apologists.  Pretending DA2 was awesome, and there were no real problems.  Maybe not, maybe I’m being cynical.  Maybe the same mentality didn’t jackup TOR.  Whatever.


All I will say is this: we now have the stuff of 3 world wars:

1.  Corypheus via Lareus could start the blight-of-all-blights.

2.  The  Qunari.  They’ve never been beaten in battle.  They’ve never retreated due to defeat in combat, even when the whole of Thedas led a Crusade against them (sources differ on that, actually).  Now, they may go all out war. 

3.  Mage vs Chantry holy war.



So we have the stuff of 3 world wars, which will span all of Thedas, and include every friggen sentient being.  Personally, I wish they’d kept the feel, awareness, and sensibility of DAO, tweaked and improved it, and made at least 5 games.  But it’s down to 3, I guess.  So it’s all down to this last one.  And with the failure of DA2 and TOR, this is it.

 
And unfortunately, I don’t think they have it in them. 



How can they possibly put all this potential into one gaming experience?  Especially with EA running things?



What a shame.

Modifié par Grovermancer, 04 octobre 2012 - 02:56 .

[Grovermancer]

Ok, I typed this in a word doc. Looks like I need to reformat, w/o inducing blindness.

[Maclimes]

Man, I don't even understand your title. What the heck is "IIIWW"?

[Grovermancer]

Maclimes wrote...

Man, I don't even understand your title. What the heck is "IIIWW"?

WWIII is World War Three.

As it stands, there are 3 factors that could cause a Thedas world war. 

[Maclimes]

I totally agree with your first Point 2. I think the intro cinematic in DA:O did a great job of setting up the relevant information. Do that again.

[Maverick827]

Why am I not surprised that your post automatically assumes that your opinion is factually correct?

[Grovermancer]

Maclimes wrote...

I totally agree with your first Point 2. I think the intro cinematic in DA:O did a great job of setting up the relevant information. Do that again.

Not only that, but take DA2 for example...  They used that "animated tapestry" with Varric's VO to illustrate and 'catch-up' on the history between Acts...

...IMO, that wasn't good enough.


I appreciate it from an 'artistic' POV, but the things they're trying to bring through are just to big and epic to properly convey that way.


Think what an epic cinematic cut-away could have done for setting up each act.  While talking to that sexy brunette Seeker, we fade out into actual footage of events all over Thedas (currrent and historical) that backs up the importance of what is happening in Kirkwall, and to Hawke's hero's journey!

What Hawke was experiencing/doing should have been EPIC.  But it did NOT carry the gravity that it should have.

[Grovermancer]

Maverick827 wrote...

Why am I not surprised that your post automatically assumes that your opinion is factually correct?

IDK... inadequacy? 

Offer actual counter-points, and I can comment on substance.

[Foolsfolly]

I thought DA2 had some good bits. In some select ways it was much better than DA:O. In many other areas it flagged behind DA:O. Overall it's a very flawed game and I imagine it would have been a much better game given more development time (after all the game did ship with a gamebreaking bug and a day one DLC that added another in the passives for Friendship Isabela and Sebastian). So clearly some more time was needed.

That being said I don't hold DA2 against DA3. I know we have nothing to really point to on DA3 and that the kneejerk reaction would be to assume the worst. But DA2 was a game that just wasn't finished. I can't see a situation where someone at BioWare would say, "Yeah, that game was totally finished. Exactly as we envisioned it." I think the character work was great... for companions. I think once you stepped past the companions the other NPCs tended to range from great (Arishok) to poor (Orsino).

But none of that means anything to DA3. It's the same team, yes. It's the same series, yes. But hopefully they have more development time this time. Hopefully they have a strong central plot that propels the character through a great story. But we know nothing.

So please try to refrain from just hate for hate's sake. If they release a dev video tomorrow showing how they want the pony grooming mini-game to connect up to the pony breeding mini-game from Facebook yeah. It's time to start panicking about DA3. But until then we don't know anything.

And Mass Effect 3 is damn close to being a great game. It's damn close to being BioWare's best game. It messes up by retconning player choices (Who did you put up as Councilor? Udina regardless of whether you did or not!) or simply ignore them (Rachni? You thought you killed all of them?) and then finally the most miserable ill-conceived ending to a sci-fi series since Battlestar Galactica.

The Extended Cut helped by making sense of character locations (it was a mess you had no idea why anyone turned up where they did when they did) and in making the choice at the end have different outcomes (it really was the same ending with a different color before). But it still isn't a good ending. It's just better than it was before.

But even then ME3 wasn't made by the DA team.

Also fix your damn title. IIIWW makes you look like an idiot. And don't get me started on 'EAWare.'

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 04 octobre 2012 - 03:33 .

[Morroian]

Lathrim wrote...

Grovermancer wrote...
 I’m guessing the majority of what’s left on the DA forums are DA2 fanatics, sycophants, and apologists.  Pretending DA2 was awesome, and there were no real problems.  Maybe not, maybe I’m being cynical.  Maybe the same mentality didn’t jackup TOR.  Whatever.

Believing in one doesn't necessarily mean the other doesn't occur. I believe DA2 was awesome, and I also admit it has several flaws, some of them being serious (i.e repeated environments, the whole Meredith/Orsino thing, etc)

This.

[Grovermancer]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I thought DA2 had some good bits. In some select ways it was much better than DA:O. In many other areas it flagged behind DA:O. Overall it's a very flawed game and I imagine it would have been a much better game given more development time (after all the game did ship with a gamebreaking bug and a day one DLC that added another in the passives for Friendship Isabela and Sebastian). So clearly some more time was needed.

That being said I don't hold DA2 against DA3. I know we have nothing to really point to on DA3 and that the kneejerk reaction would be to assume the worst. But DA2 was a game that just wasn't finished. I can't see a situation where someone at BioWare would say, "Yeah, that game was totally finished. Exactly as we envisioned it." I think the character work was great... for companions. I think once you stepped past the companions the other NPCs tended to range from great (Arishok) to poor (Orsino).

But none of that means anything to DA3. It's the same team, yes. It's the same series, yes. But hopefully they have more development time this time. Hopefully they have a strong central plot that propels the character through a great story. But we know nothing.

So please try to refrain from just hate for hate's sake. If they release a dev video tomorrow showing how they want the pony grooming mini-game to connect up to the pony breeding mini-game from Facebook yeah. It's time to start panicking about DA3. But until then we don't know anything.

And Mass Effect 3 is damn close to being a great game. It's damn close to being BioWare's best game. It messes up by retconning player choices (Who did you put up as Councilor? Udina regardless of whether you did or not!) or simply ignore them (Rachni? You thought you killed all of them?) and then finally the most miserable ill-conceived ending to a sci-fi series since Battlestar Galactica.

The Extended Cut helped by making sense of character locations (it was a mess you had no idea why anyone turned up where they did when they did) and in making the choice at the end have different outcomes (it really was the same ending with a different color before). But it still isn't a good ending. It's just better than it was before.

But even then ME3 wasn't made by the DA team.

Also fix your damn title. IIIWW makes you look like an idiot. And don't get me started on 'EAWare.'

Well...  the demonstratable performance of DA2 and TOR both point to something, don't they?  What about the founders of BW leaving?  And a 200 mil game going F2P in 6 months?  A game that doesn't even ship with stuff their old RPG had?  (swoop racing)  Doesn't all this stuff kinda form a disturbing pattern?

Is IIIWW really idiotic?  Isn't that what we have; the potential for 3 world wars?

[Grovermancer]

Filament wrote...

I didn't realize being a cagefighter was a prerequisite for having an honest opinion about the feel of combat in the game.

Exchange "being a cagefighter" with "doing physically demanding workouts for more than a week," and "honest" with "informed."

Then my answer is, "yes."  It does.


(I hope a certain mod comes back in here and claims "all opinions are equal" and folks saying that single-handedly whipping around a greatsword faster than the eye can see is 'realistic.'  Then a troll will come in and trolls, then mod has an excuse to close the thread)

[TsaiMeLemoni]

I think the biggest thing I disagree with you on is the combat, simply because I personally don't play these games for any level of appreciable reality. If I can accept a world where people are flinging about magic, I can accept hyper-realistic portrayal of weapon handling and combat athleticism. In fact, in this situation I prefer it.


I slightly disagree about your second point, but only because we're talking about the second game in a franchise, and a good portion of the groundwork had been laid (imo) in the first entry. I felt codex entries, dialogue trees, and general contextual cues to be sufficient markers for such things as why the Qunari are feared/hated, and I don't think there was much subtext to unravel about the mage/templar conflict.

I certainly agree about the re-used environments, and I think that's my biggest complaint with DA2, and the final decisions with Meredith and Orsino felt really weightless as no matter what you choose your course of action is the same.

Interesting points though, and always fun to see an opinion other than my own.

Modifié par TsaiMeLemoni, 04 octobre 2012 - 03:50 .

[Grovermancer]

Filament wrote...

lol, no. It really doesn't. That's leaving aside the strawman that people who defend it necessarily call it realistic to begin with.

Well of course a person hasn't had to have done physical labor / exercise to understand how human kinesthetics and physics work...

...though to pretend the movements of DA2 are in-world realistic when compared to what DAO established is demonstratably false.

In DAO, weapons have weight.  In DA2 they don't.  In DAO, it takes time to move to an opponent.  In DA2, you intantaneously leap to/through them.

Etc.  Etc.


That's not to say that some animations were improved upon in DA2 (mage, for example)


But this falls into the category of observationally evident.  It's not an opinion.  Though folks with certain agendas want to make it such.


Musashi couldn't whip around a katana as fast as DA2 2-Handers move their oversized units in every movment.  It's absurd.  Near comic or farcicle.  Not even close to real life human locomotion (which DAO attempted to mimic the spirit of)


ps.  for the record, DAO 2-H should have gradually increased swing speed as STR increased.  The mod that did that was fantastic and legit.

[RazorrX]

Ummm about the greats word thing. If you ever saw the deadliest warrior episode where the swordmaster demonstrated it, you would change your argument to something else. He was not an elite athlete, and he was fast. Fast and pretty awesomely accurate (cutting three heads off in one swing). A fantasy warrior would be an elite athlete, thus they would be Able to be fast. IMO da and da2 were way to slow with greatsword attacks.

Now to complain about emo elf the living toothpick using a greatsword - yeah I can give you that one. Or exploding bodies, teleporting rogues (although that was fun), blood mages pulling stavs from their navel, endless parachuting ninja waves, casting magic in full view of the super bad Templars and nothing happening, not being able to step over a 4" curb, etc. there a lot of things I can give you on thing I disliked - but to say two handed fighting was too fast =\\= not one of them.

[Grovermancer]

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

I think the biggest thing I disagree with you on is the combat, simply because I personally don't play these games for any level of appreciable reality. If I can accept a world where people are flinging about magic, I can accept hyper-realistic portrayal of weapon handling and combat athleticism. In fact, in this situation I prefer it.

That would have been fine if that's how the DA universe were introduced... But they made DAO with more realistic human movement animations. 

So I'm not sure the reason (beyond appealing to a different sensibility) to have changed it.

ps.  TO ANYONE RESPONDING, do not bother with the hackneyed "how realistitic is it if there are dragons?"  Yeah, I know that.  It's called fantasy.  That doesn't address what is being discussed, and is intellectually dishonests TBH. ;D

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...
I slightly disagree about your second point, but only because we're talking about the second game in a franchise, and a good portion of the groundwork had been laid (imo) in the first entry. I felt codex entries, dialogue trees, and general contextual cues to be sufficient markers for such things as why the Qunari are feared/hated, and I don't think there was much subtext to unravel about the mage/templar conflict.

I certainly agree about the re-used environments, and I think that's my biggest complaint with DA2, and the final decisions with Meredith and Orsino felt really weightless as no matter what you choose your course of action is the same.

Interesting points though, and always fun to see an opinion other than my own.

Here's the thing about using strategic cinematics:  would it have hurt?

Wouldn't it have been awesome to have seen a brief, historical retrospective of hoardes of grey giants storming over the fields approaching Tevinter?  Or the Holy Crusades (forget their names, it's been years) of the collective armies of Thedas marching against them?

And that would have been maybe 10 seconds... and just for a part of one flashback!

I used to obsess on the metaphysics on this universe, the history, the cultures...  DA2 just seemed to gloss over that stuff.  I had to think too much.  I'm not joking.  In a mythological movie/game, the viewer/player should not have to think who am I, what is this place, what is the significance of everything?

All that stuff should be evident and obvious and almost overbearing at all moments.   (think of SW and LOTR and Dune and The Matrix (pt 1 only))  The universe and the threats were obvious and ever-present.  The gravity of every choice was real.

Not in DA2, not to me, not like in DAO.  Strategically placed cutscenes would have completely fixed that IMO.

[Sanunes]

I don't play games like Dragon Age for realistic combat and if that is where there focus will be spent they are just going to attract more comparisons to making another COD clone with Dragon Age.

[Edit: One thing to consider is that they have to balance the two sides of realisitic combat and enjoyable combat and I think that is why there is the difference between the two Dragon Age games, for vaguely remember complains about how slow the swings were in Dragon Age: Origins.]

With having not all the information in the sequel is standard fare for media, I would have been really upset if every superhero movie would go back and redo the origin in every movie they made, but using that logic I would have to see Tony Stark making the Mark I in a cave in Iron Man 2 and The Avengers because I might not have seen Iron Man 1.

I do agree with point three though, but at the same time I believe that is one thing that BioWare admitted to that the amount of reused environments was excessive (at least from what I remember on these boards.

As far as how weighty choices felt between Dragon Age 2 and Dragon Age: Origins, I felt both were pretty light. I played Dragon Age: Origins again recently and picking the Dalish over the Werewolves didn't change how the game ended or made it any easier and the only real difference was a different short story on the slide for their conflict at the end of the game. I am not saying having a major choice in the game wouldn't be unwelcome, I just don't think BioWare has ever done it before in any of their games.

Modifié par Sanunes, 04 octobre 2012 - 04:07 .

[Maria Caliban]

Grovermancer wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Man, I don't even understand your title. What the heck is "IIIWW"?

WWIII is World War Three.

Yes, WW III is World War Three. What is IIIWW?

[Grovermancer]

RazorrX wrote...

Ummm about the greats word thing. If you ever saw the deadliest warrior episode where the swordmaster demonstrated it, you would change your argument to something else. He was not an elite athlete, and he was fast. Fast and pretty awesomely accurate (cutting three heads off in one swing). A fantasy warrior would be an elite athlete, thus they would be Able to be fast. IMO da and da2 were way to slow with greatsword attacks.

Now to complain about emo elf the living toothpick using a greatsword - yeah I can give you that one. Or exploding bodies, teleporting rogues (although that was fun), blood mages pulling stavs from their navel, endless parachuting ninja waves, casting magic in full view of the super bad Templars and nothing happening, not being able to step over a 4" curb, etc. there a lot of things I can give you on thing I disliked - but to say two handed fighting was too fast == not one of them.

Actually, I did see those, but don't agree on the absurd "fast-ness" of that one cut, let alone every single cut (even auto-attacks).  BTW, you ever notice how that show should be called "An improper comparison of 4 supposed weapons from 4 cultured!"?  They basically compare the weapons moreso than anything else!

LOL "emo elf the living toothpick."

And everything else you mention, I've brought up before, but didn't even bother this time.  Good references.

[RazorrX]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Grovermancer wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Man, I don't even understand your title. What the heck is "IIIWW"?

WWIII is World War Three.

Yes, WW III is World War Three. What is IIIWW?

i am thinking = three world wars

[Foolsfolly]

Well... the demonstratable performance of DA2 and TOR both point to something, don't they? What about the founders of BW leaving? And a 200 mil game going F2P in 6 months? A game that doesn't even ship with stuff their old RPG had? (swoop racing) Doesn't all this stuff kinda form a disturbing pattern?

I have no idea why the doctors left. Yeah, you tend to think quiting your job means you either got a better offer somewhere else or you're just sick of your job. And since they didn't become the heads of some other larger company and went into brewing and whatever the other not-answer was... signs for concern I can understand.

As for TOR I have no idea what the game was like. I don't like MMO's. But MMOs fail way more than they work. WoW's king for a few reasons and one of those reasons is the fact that you have a community. People have been playing with (and even hooking up with) the same group of people for a decade there. They know the game, they have their guilds, they're friends with their guildmates.

Any new MMO cannot immediately offer that. That has to be built up over time. And on top of everything there's the giant bit of cancer attached to TOR called 'Star Wars.' Galaxies got shut down because of TOR but it was a flagging and dying animal for years. It made sense "MMO in the Star Wars Universe? Take my money!" But the game was garbage.

And like it or not Star Wars as a brand is everywhere in games and the vast majority of them (read every single Star Wars game that isn't KOTOR or X-Wing vs TIE Fighter) are garbage. Knowing that Star Wars games are garbage and knowing that Star Wars MMOs are garbage you have a large group of MMO fans and Star Wars fans who would look at TOR and scoff.

It had to prove itself against low expectations for the brand while taking on and competing against a juggernaut in WoW. Other MMOs have tried over the decade including ones based on wildly popular universes like the DC Universe or those set in previously successful MMOs like EverQuest.

None can fight WoW.

Even though WoW itself is starting to die. Mists of Pandaria's sells are down 60% from Cataclysm. Likely because they're taking their panda easter egg from WarCraft 3 way too seriously by making them an actual Chinese cultured anthropomorphized panda race.... which screams jump the shark.

[Grovermancer]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Grovermancer wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Man, I don't even understand your title. What the heck is "IIIWW"?

WWIII is World War Three.

Yes, WW III is World War Three. What is IIIWW?

Grovermancer wrote...

WWIII is World War Three.

As it stands, there are 3 factors that could cause a Thedas world war. 

3 world wars.  (potentially)

That is, 3 different factors that, even on their own, could cause a Thedas world war.  But now, there are 3 of them all at once.