352 réponses à ce sujet

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

"Love isn't sensible"

[tmp7704]

philippe willaume wrote...

I  see where you are coming from, I never realised that it did  work like than in DA:2?  I mean, I always got the same dialogue and no repercussion of my choices (dialogue or otherwise for that matter)

Yup, it's something that only becomes apparent with multiple playthroughs (with PCs who take different dialogue choices to boot) but these choices affect number of 'auto-dialogue' lines Hawke says, or things like comments when accepting/rejecting quests and generally lines which don't allow you to select the tone themselves. They don't trigger different reactions in the NPCs to my knowledge, it's just a little something for flavour.

That being said it take this is not the point you are making, you are proposing that if we have a directing personality the way the whole romance scenes plays out should reflect it.

Aye; i didn't mean it specifically for sexist character and such, Maria's comment how the scenes should reflect characters in some manner just made me realise it's something where the tone system could be of use/should be perhaps taken into account if the game uses it in other areas.

[Shevy]

Only indicating what will happen and then leaving the rest to the players imagination is my preference here. DA II was on the right track regarding this topic. I don't need naked characters in a video game.

[cindercatz]

Just noting, I've been away from the boards a few days and missed this thread, so I'm just getting caught up on things I think are worth commenting on. A lot of edits.

daaaav wrote...

I think the point is not that we NEED nudity for a "mature" story but that a "mature" story should treat nudity maturely.

By that I mean it should be treated without kiddy gloves and ridiculous coverups.It should just be a part of the fabric of the story, the same as everything else.

I'm tired of being told that violence is mature, but nudity is for frat boys...

This.
I've written a lot on this for years (think I've spent more than a decade pointing out the absurdity and harm that avoiding nudity does all over the internet, and in person, and not just for video games, but dramatic or high art in general), but this a good start.

I am so, so, so tired of close minded people attacking nudity or anyone who makes a point of it. That's not aimed at anyone on the boards, but there are always a few of them, because of the culture we come from. Improving our culture is one of the reasons among many that nudity in art (of all kinds) is important.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think the point is not that we NEED nudity for a "mature" story but that a "mature" story should treat nudity maturely.

By that I mean it should be treated without kiddy gloves and ridiculous coverups.It should just be a part of the fabric of the story, the same as everything else.

Are you okay with an interpretation of this that means there's no nudity at all, as long as it isn't exempt in a hamfisted and unnecessary way?

For example, is deciding to do fade to blacks as a way to depict the scenes something that makes a scene less mature?

Yes, fade to black is very immature. It's worse than the underwear scenes, because you're completely avoiding a major narrative scene that should have a high emotional impact (and depending on the scene, a wide range of storytelling and dramatic impact). It's intellectually dishonest and emotionally flat and severely immersion breaking. It's alluding to something important and pretending it matters when in reality it doesn't exist, and the audience (and the narrative itself) just have to pretend that it mattered, when in reality there is no experience at all and there is no emotional resonance whatsoever. Treating the love scenes as comedy with voiceover like a lot of games do is even worse than that.

On scale, full nudity done right is much, much, much better than stategic camera angling. Camera tricks are much, much, much better than underware or fade to black, but mute the scene. Underware tricks are immersion breaking and remind you of all the artificial reasons nudity is being avoided. Fade to black is actually harmful. Treating love scenes and sexuality as comedy in an otherwise dramatic work is very harmful.

Chiramu wrote...

You have to think of the poor developers of the game as well. Imagine you're a developer of a serious video game, how would you feel about putting sex into said serious game, it's not a Japanese porn game either.

Personally I feel the "sex" scenes make me downright uncomfortable. I feel like a third wheel in the corner of the room just watching two people doing something incredibly intimate with each other.

Actually doing the nudity right would contribute to what would make it serious and truly mature. It should be a point of pride.

I understand the second point, because you play the relationship, but might not fully control what happens at that point in the relationship, so it could take you out of your character. The way I would solve that is the way Heavy Rain did it (the best game ever made IMO). In that game, if you want to go that far, it's up to you. If you want to kiss your lover, that's up to you, if you want to undress, that's up to you. But it's all done in a dramatic and emotionally investing way, not in a sex it up sort of way. I think that's the best way to do a love scene in a game. Keep in mind that there are other scenes that should have nudity if they're there (like the flame trial in the Trials of Andraste), so we're not just talking about love scenes.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Unless you'd like to see some sort of gameplay elements during the intimate scenes (which is when your rating does start to shift to AO. For an example see the game Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy), you're suggesting an alternative that limits gameplay.

I think Quantic Dream got it right with Heavy Rain. Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy was too concerned with the mechanical part of the experience and not enough with the emotional part of the storytelling, which is why it got into trouble. Heavy Rain's is the way to go.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Though you mention that it makes the game less engaging. Do you feel nudity in a scene makes it more engaging?

Very much so, yes, because it breaks down the artificiality I feel otherwise. I'm very off-put, distracted, anytime something actively avoids nudity, where as I can relax and fully invest in the scene when nudity is present.

daaaav wrote...

I can't stress this enough Alan,

It was Bioware that turned sex and sexuality in your games into a strange gimmicky reward for choosing the right pickup lines or filling the right bar.

I see sex,sexuality and nudity as an integral part of good characterisation and setting, not just as a "hook" to get players interested in your romance mechanics... I don't care what you do as long as it feels authentic and makes me forget that I'm playing a game.

I'd also like to do away with the relationship bar and integrate relationships fully into the main storytelling, including the romances. It's also frustrating to see BioWare lag behind on tasteful nudity when Mass Effect is the game that started games down the right path in the first place. And totally agreed on the second point.

Modifié par cindercatz, 05 octobre 2012 - 12:42 .

[Dominus]

Yes, fade to black is very immature.

Immature feels like a bit of a misnomer. When I said I wasn't opposed to it, I was looking at it from a resource-management point of view. With some of the cross-species mass effect romances, I think a fade to black worked for Garrus & Tali. Suppose I couldn't say the same with Dragon Age(outside of this). Outside of those exceptions, I generally prefer the real deal.

On scale, full nudity done right is much, much, much better than stategic camera angling. Camera tricks are much, much, much better than underware or fade to black, but mute the scene. Underware tricks are immersion breaking and remind you of all the artificial reasons nudity is being avoided.

Agreed.

As far as Quantic Dream, I(for the most part) agree...outside of the "Undo the Bra to cue the sex scene" mechanic. That was, uh... yeah. 

Modifié par DominusVita, 05 octobre 2012 - 12:51 .

[cindercatz]

Well, immature in terms of storytelling. I'm not particularly worried about the budget necessary to make one more model for a particular species and the concept art it's modelled from. That's really all it is. Well now, individual main characters have different bodies, which is good, but then those are still the only nude body models you make, unless you're going to have ambient nudity, like background slaves or prostitution. I don't know how realistic and authentic Dragon Age's team wants its world to feel. There's a major shift in that area even from DA:O to DA2.

Any major scene is going to exist either way, so it's not like there won't be an animation budget allocated. It's just what that scene will be and how strong a scene it is, emotionally and narratively.

On the bra thing. I think the choice is important, particularly if you wouldn't make that choice like some people in this thread. The gameplay with the turning controller was the same as the gameplay throughout the game. You turn and move in analogous ways to every action you take, whether turning a doorknob or brushing your teeth or unhooking the bra. It's an incredibly immersive game.

MichaelStuart wrote...

I say just fade to black, for the pragmatic reason of not spending resources on something so miner.

I'd argue that what makes them minor to the game's experience is that they haven't been done well so far. They should be very important scenes, particularly the love scenes, but they haven't been precisely because they've beat around the bush so much and flubbed it up. The choice to treat them as both secondary and emotionally immaterial has resulted in exactly that. If there is no scene to care about as in DA2, or if you're taken out of the scene by outside factors as in DA:O, ME2, and most of ME3's, then why would they have mattered to your overall experience with the games? But they should. They should matter.

tmp7704 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

DA II and ME 2 were much better in this regards. Isabela is wild and fun-loving; her sex scene is wild and fun-loving. Nudity would be perfectly appropriate. Alternatively, Fenris is emotionally raw. Merrill is sweet and hesitant. Witcher-inspired doggy style scenes wouldn't fit with those characters.

Surely, they could fit with aggressive Hawke. Scenes revolving around interaction should ideally take into account both personalities involved.

Agreed with tmp7704 here and Maria Caliban's general point. Nudity is a storytelling device. Love scenes should serve the story and the characters. tmp7704 is right in that both characters should be taken into account and advanced through the scene.

Modifié par cindercatz, 05 octobre 2012 - 01:24 .

[JasonNH]

DahliaLynn wrote...

I don't see the need for nudity at all. But experiencing the moment is definitely a plus, and something I would hope for as the romance builds.

Hire this woman. Problem solved. 

Modifié par JasonNH, 05 octobre 2012 - 02:10 .

[cindercatz]

Valadras21 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...


Perhaps we'd like to leave it up to the imagination of the player for what type of things occur?

If the reason for wanting to see them is little more than "because I want to see them" then the advantage of showing nudity seems to disappear.

I'll try to give you a (hopefully) good reason (or at least an explanation) that makes sense. Let me start by saying though, while I believe nudity should be featured in love scenes, it should be kept "tasteful" like Liara's in ME3. She's naked, but thanks to clever camera angles, you don't see anything. That's the ideal way of doing it imo, and this opinion should be kept in mind when reading the rest of my post.

Now, the reason for inclusion. Because excluding love scenes in favor of a fade to black goes against what happens in the rest of the game. When Hawke goes to challenge the Arishok, I get to be there, see it happen, and fight him. When my companions are going through their individual crisises, I get to be caught up in their feelings and ideas, and help them out, through dialogue and gameplay. I'm not told that Anders is losing control of Justice, I get to see it happen. I'm not told there was a great battle, I get to fight it.

The fade to black romance scenes are the one odd thing in the whole narrative. Now, in DA2, we get to see the before and after, basically the important story telling+character development aspects of a love scene, and that is good. But the actual love scene itself is gone. It's so wierd! For me, at least, that's the "climax," if you will, of the romance plots. There's this rising action, passion and emotion that leads up to it, but when it finally gets there, it goes fade to black. It's not dissimilar to the idea of progressing through DA2's qunari story, only to have the duel with the arishok be done in a fade to black scene. There's all the conflict, character development, emotion and story leading up to it, but the big part is mysteriously gone.

At the very least, imagine the disappointment you'd feel if the Arishok duel was a fade to black. That is the disappointment or frustration I feel with the fade to black romance scenes

It's disappointing to me that my character is conscious, and experiencing (what I feel) is a hugely important part of  his character development and personal story, but all I get to see is a black screen.

That's why the physcial lovemaking scenes themselves should be in game. There doesn't need to be an active gameplay aspect to them, like you said earlier, (Like Assassin Creed 2's "Press X to remove her dress") because active gameplay and active pursuit of an optional story is what leads to the scene to begin with. I'm making the effort, and showing the interest in these romance stories, that's enough to justify a romance scene. Then, since the scenes themselves should be in the game, the characters should be properly naked in said scenes. No showering in undies, for example, because it's just silly. I don't need to explain why nudity itself shouldn't be an issue in a game with decapitations, gore, and horrifying imagery (broodmothers, Quentin's experiment etc), as most other posters in this thread have done so already.

I will point out though that nudity itself, in the context of a romance scene, would serve the purpose of counterbalancing all that negative imagery. A romance scene depicting beauty, passion, and positive emotions serves to counterbalance the evil we fight and the negativeity and destruction we witness in the rest of the game.

So does this make sense? I'm the kind of person that really gets into these games you make. I get pumped when I get into fights with my 2h warrior in DA2. I cried when certain characters died in ME3. I yell, taunt, and laugh at my enemies when I'm fighting in the ME games. I raise my fists in victory every time I beat the suicide mission. Romance dialogue in all the DA and ME games makes me flush and smile like a fool. So it's like pulling the rug out from under me when you guys do a fade to black like in DA2 and ME2.

This is an excellent post. Actual nudity is better than strategic angling to avoid it for the same reasons, but this is a good description of what it's like playing the games like they are now with fade to black. There is no climax (the storytelling term), there's just an omission of what would otherwise be an important scene. I'd also say that normally when there is a love scene, there is a ton of characterization that takes place during the love scene, so they should also serve that purpose in games. They're not rewards. They're necessary, additive parts of any narrative where they take place.

[NRieh]

Yes, fade to black is very immature. It's worse than the underwear scenes, because you're completely avoiding a major narrative scene that should have a high emotional impact

1. nothing is worse than underwear scenes. Especially - underwear shower scenes and underwear "waking up after hot night in a lover's arms" scenes.

2. You can only say about your own emotional preferences. Because for me - fingers gently touching face followed by a kiss and "fade to black" have the very correct emotional impact. And it does not prevent me from imagining the scene itself as I like it (if I wish), without awkward engine-restricted model animations.

Prerendered well directed animation cut? Yes, may be...but it is not possible with any kind of custom character.

[ElitePinecone]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

They shouldn't make content to fit the ratings, they should make the game they want to make, and let the rating fall where it will.

This is the way I see it too.

I'm wondering what influence the ratings board does have - do you know if it's ever affected a feature or plot point after it's been implemented? Have you ever cut something in the lead-up to release (or, at least, after it's had some work on it) because it would've skirted close to classification category boundaries? No specifics necessary

I was just thinking about the furore over ME (even aside from Fox, it fell foul of Singapore's ratings board because of the femShep/Liara romance) and whether someone at Bioware was more cautious about the 'romance' content after that. 

[jillabender]

JasonNH wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

I don't see the need for nudity at all. But experiencing the moment is definitely a plus, and something I would hope for as the romance builds.

Hire this woman. Problem solved. 

Here, here!

Modifié par jillabender, 05 octobre 2012 - 02:37 .

[Sylvanpyxie]

I've followed the majority of this thread, though admittedly I flounced a little between pages 5 and 7, and I must say - I'm not sure my opinion on this has changed much at all.

Setting aside any moral debates that may arise, I'd like to first say - I have no problems with nudity what so ever.

Something I liked about the Dragon Age 2 "Fade to Black Implied Sexy Times" is the fact that the build up, and the final conversation after the fade to black, was unique to each of the companions in a way that Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect 1 wasn't.

Isabela's scene, for instance, was very much "her". I couldn't imagine another Love Interest from Dragon Age 2 being so savage and fun in the build up to sex. It was a scene designed purely with Isabela in mind and that was utterly brilliant.

Sure, in some of the scenes the after-math was a bit silly. Fenris trying to explain what happened and running out on Hawke, while Hawke was sitting there in her underwear after "implied sexy times" was a bit silly. But those are minor gripes that I have. If they had kept the camera above Hawke's underwear then I wouldn't have seen it, and wouldn't have had the slightest problem with it.

The problem with extending these "Fade to Black Implied Sexy Times" is that not only would each base model have to be entirely unique to the character - Isabela's larger bust, Fenris' tattoos, Anders' slimmer body model, Merrill having the only nude elf model in the game tailored specifically for a single 10-30 second interlude - but the interludes themselves would also have to remain unique to the character, in the manner that Dragon Age 2 did.

I have to wonder if all that effort is truly worth it in the end, especially considering how much romantic story arcs have suffered in terms of writing and dialogue at the moment.

I'm not sure I would want them to go through all the effort of multiple unique models and cinematic designs (all for 10-30 seconds of optional content that some people won't even pursue) at the cost of other aspects of development - Such as additional dialogue, deeper dialogue, greater character development and progression, and a generally richer romantic story-arc.

If they're focusing so greatly on an aspect that is completely optional, and I would imagine greatly time consuming for what it is, I can't help but feel other aspects of romances, and friendships, and general companion interaction might suffer as a result.

I don't want the climax (pardon the pun) of the romance to be the thing that gets the greatest attention to detail. It should be the writing, the very foundations of the story-arc that get the most focus from developers. I can't help but feel the amount of time and effort required to make these scenes truly impact the romance arc, and make each scene unique to the love interest in question, could be better spent deepening the dialogue and creating a richer romantic story-arc.


That's just my opinion.

Too Long? Didn't Read? - My only problem is how much it would actually take for Bioware to maintain unique romantic interludes for each Love Interest while also providing people their much wanted cut-scenes.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 05 octobre 2012 - 02:43 .

[xSTONEYx187x]

As long as I'm not prompted to "thrust the right stick" ala Fahrenheit, I don't really mind. That was one of, if not the most awkward moments I ever had playing a videogame.

I think the Witcher 2 did it best, not because it had virtual bewbs and ******, but because it suited the dark setting of the game. 

Modifié par xSTONEYx187x, 05 octobre 2012 - 02:45 .

[LilyasAvalon]

Garrus and Tali's LI sex scenes in both ME2 and ME3 were rather tasteful and nice. I'd personally want scenes like that, just a passionate kiss than fade to black.

Whenever I see characters roll around together on the bed in their underwear... It's just so... weird.

[cindercatz]

Nrieh wrote...

Yes, fade to black is very immature. It's worse than the underwear scenes, because you're completely avoiding a major narrative scene that should have a high emotional impact

1. nothing is worse than underwear scenes. Especially - underwear shower scenes and underwear "waking up after hot night in a lover's arms" scenes.

2. You can only say about your own emotional preferences. Because for me - fingers gently touching face followed by a kiss and "fade to black" have the very correct emotional impact. And it does not prevent me from imagining the scene itself as I like it (if I wish), without awkward engine-restricted model animations.

Prerendered well directed animation cut? Yes, may be...but it is not possible with any kind of custom character.

I don't see what's so awkward about the animation, honestly. Animation is animation. I don't need narrative love scenes to be flesh and blood or near flesh and blood any more than I do an animated movie, or the desciptions in a novel. That's the part imagination plays. I'm not going to sit there and imagine a love scene. It's not about the eroticism. I can imagine tens of thousands of fantasy love scenes and they all have the same emotional weight with me, zero. What's important is that the scene is actually there and there's the entire emotional experience. The rollercoaster's got to actually be built before you can ride it.

To your points:
1. Underwear scenes are still better than fade to black. One is odd and immersion breaking. The other is absent. Odd but present is better than absent altogether, by just that much.

2. What is intimacy and discovery worth to you?

For me, if it's just the kiss, and the kiss is all that happens *in the story*, fine. That's a new relationship or puppy love or what have you. That's an all audiences kid friendly (or rather uncomfortable parent friendly) thing and we can just forget about the sexualized banter and heavy emotional tension and harsh and violent stuff altogether, like KoTOR, which I loved. That's not what Dragon Age is, though.
(I say "uncomfortable parent friendly" because even kids can understand this stuff just fine if their parents teach them. I've been watching R rated movies literally all my life. Our cultural fear and sanitization "for the kiddies" is crazy. They just grow up scared and restrictive as they're taught to be. I know you didn't mention that, but a few posts have.)

Dragon Age is more like "Game of Thrones" or "Spartacus" or "Girl with The Dragon Tattoo". If I'm watching something that's supposed to be visceral and cerebral and is supposed to take me on a full emotional journey, that's what I want to see. That's mostly where I invest my entertainment dollar as an adult, because I want to feel something, some emotional movement every chance I get.

I've been through some life. I want something that's going to evoke some of that. It's not the intellectual exercise of "Oh, they kissed" *giggly smile* and then "Aw, they're cute together" afterwards. It's spikes and troughs and impact and aftertaste I want, the kind of thing that's impossible to properly verbalise. Kiss and fade to black doesn't even remotely give me that. I literally feel nothing.

The relationships are still worthwhile and something I value in the games, but the real emotional weight of them, particularly in those moments, is sapped. That's why I often say either do them right or don't do them. If all my characters are more friendly or only lightly romantic, and that much is fully explored, that's better than having a real romance and having it gutted at the consummation. Sexualized banter and flirting only make it stick out worse, if you're only going to tease and then pull the rug out.

Maverick827 wrote...

You can't equate nudity to violence and say "why is one okay and the other isn't" because combat is a core game play element and "sex" is not.

To me, the character interaction is the most important thing in the series, then the overall non-linear narrative, branching story and all that. Combat and customization, while core to what I want from the series, are down in third place. So saying nudity is less important in an appropriate scene than violence in an action scene is topsy turvy to how I experience the game.

In DA2, I didn't even like the combat, there was very little customization, and the story didn't pan out. But I still finished the game primarily for the character interplay, and I'm still planning, for now anyway, to go back and finish it for all my DA:O import saves for the same reason, to see how that changes for each world and character I bring in.

edit: typo

Modifié par cindercatz, 05 octobre 2012 - 03:05 .

[Icinix]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Garrus and Tali's LI sex scenes in both ME2 and ME3 were rather tasteful and nice. I'd personally want scenes like that, just a passionate kiss than fade to black.

Whenever I see characters roll around together on the bed in their underwear... It's just so... weird.

Not to mention its animated...

..I just...the dialogue and the idea behind what is happening and the relationship between those characters does more in the lead up to a sex scene than an hour of sex scenes could ever convey.

..and...its animated. What are you gaining from two nude polygon creations? There is no dialogue, there is just...animated sex.

I just don't get what more it can add that isn't already provided in what we've got. 

[slimgrin]

If they're going to show any skin at all, they'd better take more care with the character designs than they did in DA2.

[Bfler]

Icinix wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Garrus and Tali's LI sex scenes in both ME2 and ME3 were rather tasteful and nice. I'd personally want scenes like that, just a passionate kiss than fade to black.

Whenever I see characters roll around together on the bed in their underwear... It's just so... weird.

Not to mention its animated...

..I just...the dialogue and the idea behind what is happening and the relationship between those characters does more in the lead up to a sex scene than an hour of sex scenes could ever convey.

..and...its animated. What are you gaining from two nude polygon creations? There is no dialogue, there is just...animated sex.

I just don't get what more it can add that isn't already provided in what we've got. 

You forget, that most of the dialoque aboard the Normandy with Tali in ME2 is about how she and Shepard can have Sex without endager her. And then at the climax in Shepard's cabin we have Tali in full suit and a simple bounce with fade to black.

Modifié par Bfler, 05 octobre 2012 - 02:59 .

[Icinix]

Bfler wrote...

Icinix wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Garrus and Tali's LI sex scenes in both ME2 and ME3 were rather tasteful and nice. I'd personally want scenes like that, just a passionate kiss than fade to black.

Whenever I see characters roll around together on the bed in their underwear... It's just so... weird.

Not to mention its animated...

..I just...the dialogue and the idea behind what is happening and the relationship between those characters does more in the lead up to a sex scene than an hour of sex scenes could ever convey.

..and...its animated. What are you gaining from two nude polygon creations? There is no dialogue, there is just...animated sex.

I just don't get what more it can add that isn't already provided in what we've got. 

You forget, that most dialog aboard the Normandy with Tali in ME2 is about how she and Shepard can have Sex without endager her. And then at the climax in Shepard's cabin we have Tali in full suit and a simple bounce with fade to black.

Exactly my point - what is gained by showing a non dialogue animated sex scene that wasn't already gained?

[jillabender]

Sylvanpyxie wrote…

I don't want the climax (pardon the pun) of the romance to be the thing that gets the greatest attention to detail. It should be the writing, the very foundations of the story-arc that get the most focus from developers. I can't help but feel the amount of time and effort required to make these scenes truly impact the romance arc, and make each scene unique to the love interest in question, could be better spent deepening the dialogue and creating a richer romantic story-arc.

Very well said. My personal preference would be for the sex scenes to include a bit of light nudity, because I feel that it's more evocative – however, I recognize that would require more time and resources.

I'm also fine with the fade-to-black approach. However, I appreciate that some people don't find that approach satisfying, and I've amended one of my earlier posts to reflect that.

My main concern with the sex scenes isn't the inclusion of nudity – I'm more interested in having more opportunities for my character to interact with his or her love interest before the sex scene. In DA2, my character had only had a few in-depth conversations with his or her love interest when I reached the sex scene in Act II, and that left me wondering "Wait, how did they get to this point?"

Modifié par jillabender, 05 octobre 2012 - 03:13 .

[Maclimes]

EntropicAngel wrote...

xSTONEYx187x wrote...

As long as I'm not prompted to "thrust the right stick" ala Fahrenheit, I don't really mind. That was one of, if not the most awkward moments I ever had playing a videogame.

I think the Witcher 2 did it best, not because it had virtual bewbs and ******, but because it suited the dark setting of the game. 

I've never heard of that, but AC II was kind of...uncomfortable. Press B to take off her clothes, press Y to kiss her, camera pans away from bed and [Press Y] comes up. Lol.

God of War is another example of having a sex minigame. Was there one in all three? I think so. And it was always ridiculous. Just absurd.

[Rpgfantasyplayer]

I do not want full on sex scenes and people are not asking for that. I want the emotional and romatic build up betwean the my PC and the NPC of my choice. There are ways for it to be done tastefully that aren't so awkward. I don't have a problem with nudity if it is in the right setting and as many have said, it is okay to show a broadmother with eight nipples but in other situations where it is appropriate, you have awkwardly placed clothing.