352 réponses à ce sujet

[cindercatz]

EntropicAngel wrote...

cindercatz wrote...

I've been through some life. I want something that's going to evoke some of that. It's not the intellectual exercise of "Oh, they kissed" *giggly smile* and then "Aw, they're cute together" afterwards. It's spikes and troughs and impact and aftertaste I want, the kind of thing that's impossible to properly verbalise. Kiss and fade to black doesn't even remotely give me that. I literally feel nothing.

You DO realize this is utterly subjective, right? Just because you feel this way doesn't mean others do. Hence it's virtually impossible to put into a...commercial media, shall I say.

To me, the character interaction is the most important thing in the series, then the overall non-linear narrative, branching story and all that. Combat and customization, while core to what I want from the series, are down in third place. So saying nudity is less important in an appropriate scene than violence in an action scene is topsy turvy to how I experience the game.

Again, your view, not an objective fact. We can't expect them to act merely on what WE want, but on what the majority wants.

For what it's worth, I agree with you on the character interaction (though disagreeing on number two). But I don't think Bioware is going off of individual people, but on the largest group.

I do realize that both of those quotes are subjective, yes. Hence why I referred to my experience in the first person throughout.

I think, based on purely anecdotal evidence, me not being even remotely alone on this, that "the largest group" is kind of subjective at this point, until a larger pool is studied, if it ever is.

I also think BioWare at least tries to make art, not just toys, so when making dramatic art, one should be attempting to achieve the most evocative, resonant quality of work one is able to accomplish. They shouldn't be concerned about what the mores of the largest part of the audience (or potential audience) are, just striving to make the best interactive narrative work they can. This is not like a question of what the most fun game mechanic is; it's storytelling and presentation.

And I've brought up examples before, Heavy Rain I mentioned, and various movies and tv shows, and other people have brought up other games, of better examples of how to do this one thing right. It's not like I'm asking for the impossible at all. I'm not asking for them to jump into my soul and wrench it by hand. That would be troubling. I am asking for a little bit of extra resources to go towards the narrative and presentation and the will to step outside their self-imposed boundaries. To me, that's very, very important. Yes I realize that's subjective on my part and ymmv. I also want a higher budget in general and a lot more branching in the main storyline and more import .. import. I realize I may not get everything I want, but I'm still going to make those things that I do clear for them to see, and hopefully the arguement can keep gaining steam in general for the next decade if it has to.  At least we should get better customization and combat this time out, so it's not like I'm not getting some improvements I've asked for. I won't be bitterly disappointed.

[Maclimes]

cindercatz wrote...

I do realize that both of those quotes are subjective, yes. Hence why I referred to my experience in the first person throughout.

I think, based on purely anecdotal evidence, me not being even remotely alone on this, that "the largest group" is kind of subjective at this point, until a larger pool is studied, if it ever is.

I also think BioWare at least tries to make art, not just toys, so when making dramatic art, one should be attempting to achieve the most evocative, resonant quality of work one is able to accomplish. They shouldn't be concerned about what the mores of the largest part of the audience (or potential audience) are, just striving to make the best interactive narrative work they can. This is not like a question of what the most fun game mechanic is; it's storytelling and presentation.

And I've brought up examples before, Heavy Rain I mentioned, and various movies and tv shows, and other people have brought up other games, of better examples of how to do this one thing right. It's not like I'm asking for the impossible at all. I'm not asking for them to jump into my soul and wrench it by hand. That would be troubling. I am asking for a little bit of extra resources to go towards the narrative and presentation and the will to step outside their self-imposed boundaries. To me, that's very, very important. Yes I realize that's subjective on my part and ymmv. I also want a higher budget in general and a lot more branching in the main storyline and more import .. import. I realize I may not get everything I want, but I'm still going to make those things that I do clear for them to see, and hopefully the arguement can keep gaining steam in general for the next decade if it has to.  At least we should get better customization and combat this time out, so it's not like I'm not getting some improvements I've asked for. I won't be bitterly disappointed.

That is a fantastic way of putting it. You also seem one of the more reasonable people on BSN. Cheers to you!

[cindercatz]

edit: just saw that.
Thanks! Appreciate the compliment.  Same to you.

jillabender wrote...

 In DA2, my character had only had a few in-depth conversations with his or her love interest when I reached the sex scene in Act II, and that left me wondering "Wait, how did they get to this point?"

That's kind of a problem I had, too. The relationships were too sparsely spread over the course of the game. I'd rather the individual dialogue change to suit what stage the relationship is at during all relevant scenes, and change the basic physicality between the characters throughout to reflect their changing relationship. ME3 is the best I've seen them do this so far. I know they don't plan to invest more romance content into the pie, but they can surely move some things around. I don't know how much they're going to rework it, but that's the start of what I'm hoping for.

Modifié par cindercatz, 05 octobre 2012 - 03:42 .

[rpmfla]

I very much agree with cindercatz.

For me personally, I am somewhat embarrassed that the American puritan ethic seems to glorify violence and express nudity and sexuality as dirty and something to be hidden from our youth. I also find the American propensity for mainstream porn ridiculous, as it seems to me to be anti-erotic in its gynecological focus and lack of any displays of real affection, mood or connection.

This seems very bizarre to me as I am an artist who depicts the beauty of the human form and would not mind seeing less violence and gore in games (but really, I am against censorship so if people want that stuff let them have it).

When I purchased The Witcher, I got the European version on EBay as I did not want to buy a censored version. I'd like to see the decisions left up to the artists and writers, not the publishers.

I wonder if the typical American gamer wants more violence and less intimately depicted human (or alien) interaction, or if the old censorship system in place for decades for the American tv/film industry is simply following the long held criteria of what is proper for our youth and what isn't.

[JerZey CJ]

I don't think nudity is needed, rather, I think that the no weird underwear sex is needed. ME1 did this best, they were very good scenes(not in a sexual way, more cinematic and romantic) and they did it without the weird sex-in-underwear thing, and without any actual nudity(unless you count the whole "OMGz ALIEN SIDE BOOB aND a BUTT!" debacle with Fox).

[rpmfla]

I played through ME1 with many different characters when it came out, then played ME2 with each of the imported characters started in ME1, then played ME3 with those same characters. For me it is mostly about the story and the main character's relationships with those around him/her. I would say my romances with Tali and Liara were the most rewarding for me, but I was very disappointed that Tali was never revealed. The little gestures, touches, jokes, and flirtations said way more about feelings than any one love scene could, but I did feel the love scene with Liara was great. I really felt like it was a further expression of how she and I (obviously when I say "I" I mean my invested Sheppard) felt about each other. Sex for physical gratification is fine, but when two people come together as happened here, it is a way of expressing a togetherness built up over many experiences and shared feelings over time.

[Fiery Phoenix]

xSTONEYx187x wrote...

I think the Witcher 2 did it best, not because it had virtual bewbs and ******, but because it suited the dark setting of the game.

Correct. Correspondingly, such scenes wouldn't be well suited in a setting like Dragon Age.

Dragon Age may be dark but it's a different kind of dark. I'm not exactly a fan of the romance scenes in DAO and DA2, but I did like how ME1 and ME3 did them (notice how I skipped ME2!), and I wouldn't mind seeing those return in DA3 - it would probably be best that way.

[slimgrin]

rpmfla wrote...

I very much agree with cindercatz.

For me personally, I am somewhat embarrassed that the American puritan ethic seems to glorify violence and express nudity and sexuality as dirty and something to be hidden from our youth. I also find the American propensity for mainstream porn ridiculous, as it seems to me to be anti-erotic in its gynecological focus and lack of any displays of real affection, mood or connection.

This seems very bizarre to me as I am an artist who depicts the beauty of the human form and would not mind seeing less violence and gore in games (but really, I am against censorship so if people want that stuff let them have it).

When I purchased The Witcher, I got the European version on EBay as I did not want to buy a censored version. I'd like to see the decisions left up to the artists and writers, not the publishers.

I wonder if the typical American gamer wants more violence and less intimately depicted human (or alien) interaction, or if the old censorship system in place for decades for the American tv/film industry is simply following the long held criteria of what is proper for our youth and what isn't.

https://encrypted-tb...kEr6CoxBiYteTQy

[Monica83]

rpmfla wrote...

I very much agree with cindercatz.

For me personally, I am somewhat embarrassed that the American puritan ethic seems to glorify violence and express nudity and sexuality as dirty and something to be hidden from our youth. I also find the American propensity for mainstream porn ridiculous, as it seems to me to be anti-erotic in its gynecological focus and lack of any displays of real affection, mood or connection.

This seems very bizarre to me as I am an artist who depicts the beauty of the human form and would not mind seeing less violence and gore in games (but really, I am against censorship so if people want that stuff let them have it).

When I purchased The Witcher, I got the European version on EBay as I did not want to buy a censored version. I'd like to see the decisions left up to the artists and writers, not the publishers.

I wonder if the typical American gamer wants more violence and less intimately depicted human (or alien) interaction, or if the old censorship system in place for decades for the American tv/film industry is simply following the long held criteria of what is proper for our youth and what isn't.

100% agree

[Arppis]

slimgrin wrote...

rpmfla wrote...

I very much agree with cindercatz.

For me personally, I am somewhat embarrassed that the American puritan ethic seems to glorify violence and express nudity and sexuality as dirty and something to be hidden from our youth. I also find the American propensity for mainstream porn ridiculous, as it seems to me to be anti-erotic in its gynecological focus and lack of any displays of real affection, mood or connection.

This seems very bizarre to me as I am an artist who depicts the beauty of the human form and would not mind seeing less violence and gore in games (but really, I am against censorship so if people want that stuff let them have it).

When I purchased The Witcher, I got the European version on EBay as I did not want to buy a censored version. I'd like to see the decisions left up to the artists and writers, not the publishers.

I wonder if the typical American gamer wants more violence and less intimately depicted human (or alien) interaction, or if the old censorship system in place for decades for the American tv/film industry is simply following the long held criteria of what is proper for our youth and what isn't.

https://encrypted-tb...kEr6CoxBiYteTQy

I'll second that psycho's clap!

[cindercatz]

rpmfla wrote...

I very much agree with cindercatz.

For me personally, I am somewhat embarrassed that the American puritan ethic seems to glorify violence and express nudity and sexuality as dirty and something to be hidden from our youth. I also find the American propensity for mainstream porn ridiculous, as it seems to me to be anti-erotic in its gynecological focus and lack of any displays of real affection, mood or connection.

This seems very bizarre to me as I am an artist who depicts the beauty of the human form and would not mind seeing less violence and gore in games (but really, I am against censorship so if people want that stuff let them have it).

When I purchased The Witcher, I got the European version on EBay as I did not want to buy a censored version. I'd like to see the decisions left up to the artists and writers, not the publishers.

I wonder if the typical American gamer wants more violence and less intimately depicted human (or alien) interaction, or if the old censorship system in place for decades for the American tv/film industry is simply following the long held criteria of what is proper for our youth and what isn't.

Totally agreed. I don't think the typical gamer drives violence near so much as the cultural status quo from the last few decades (and before that, in a few cycles). That's not to say I don't value the finishers from DA:O. I also agree that the sort of plastic, dirty veneer our culture regards sexuality with is unhealthy, to say the least.
I never bought the first Witcher game because of the censorship, and I bought Indigo Prophecy in the bargain bin for like $15 for the same reason. It's a great game, but there's a jump in the plot and in the characters' relationships that's extremely jarring, because they just ripped an integral scene right out of the middle of it, bad as I hear one game mechanic is there.

[Cosmochyck]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

xSTONEYx187x wrote...

I think the Witcher 2 did it best, not because it had virtual bewbs and ******, but because it suited the dark setting of the game.

Correct. Correspondingly, such scenes wouldn't be well suited in a setting like Dragon Age.

Dragon Age may be dark but it's a different kind of dark. I'm not exactly a fan of the romance scenes in DAO and DA2, but I did like how ME1 and ME3 did them (notice how I skipped ME2!), and I wouldn't mind seeing those return in DA3 - it would probably be best that way.

We agree - Again 

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I think the fade to black is the best, myself.

One humorous reason for this is RPing. My evil BDSM blood mage isn't going to be lying there doing missionary, and my tame paragon-to-the-core human doesn't want wild, tantric sex.

A bit graphic, but yeah?

That's an excellent argument against cinematics generally.  Which is why BioWare likely won't heed it.

This cannot be a justification they use for the fade-to-black, given their desire to use cinematics to remove player agency elsewhere.

[NRieh]

I don't see what's so awkward about the animation, honestly. Animation is animation.

You know, DAO original "intim scenes" (I mean...by the fireplace...not in a tent...Oghren was happy) and tender any-time-kisses in full plated armor gloves are MUCH more immersion-breaking for me, than any sort of black screen. Same as ME3 rolling around the bed with a "quick drink" intro.

Your point is "show us whatever, but show it so that we will know it's there" My point is "if you can't show it right - don't show it, but give me a good emotional link to that black screen".

I can't see how can we agree with each other about the matter, honestly. And I also can't see how any non-rendered cut can do any better.

And to those who remember Withcer all the time. I don't think that witcher was that good.
First - witcher did not have a variety of protagonists. Second - even witcher has clipping issues and with all its "naturality" looks not half as good as short Yenne's romance scene from an old film (where not much of nudity is shown, and where marvelous Grzegorz Ciechowski music is performed). And last one (about "natural" witcher that had nudity): if you take away Geralt's endless love to women from pan Andrzej's books - there still will be something to see and to read. If you take away romance scenes from DAO,DA2 and MEs (replacing them with black screens) -not much will change. If you take away all those scenes from witcher....no one would ever buy that game.

[Norwood06]

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

I don't think nudity is needed, rather, I think that the no weird underwear sex is needed. ME1 did this best, they were very good scenes(not in a sexual way, more cinematic and romantic) and they did it without the weird sex-in-underwear thing, and without any actual nudity(unless you count the whole "OMGz ALIEN SIDE BOOB aND a BUTT!" debacle with Fox).

Agreed.  ME1 was best with it's 'no nudity' but 'no clothing' approach.  This presentation felt mature and flowed naturally with the story, making nudity uneccessary.  DA1 and some ME2 & 3 scenes were jarring due to conflicting goals of 1) showing more than ME1 did (full body wide shots, slow cutting) while 2) keeping characters clothed to avoid nudity that would otherwise have occurred.  The combo was bizarre and uncomfortable.  ME3 fade to black is fine, but my preference is ME1 > fade to black.  

Kudos to bioware for continuing to push the envelope to find tasteful ways to bring mature story telling to gaming.   

Modifié par Norwood06, 05 octobre 2012 - 05:52 .

[rpmfla]

If you take away all those scenes from witcher....no one would ever buy that game.

I didn't disagree too much until this last point. I thought The Witcher was a very good game and I don't even recall "those scenes".

Another thing about the Mass Effect Series...

As a male, I generally will play as a male character if I have a choice. I played 4 different male characters all the way through the series with different skills, different responses, and ultimately different romance paths. As I said above I enjoyed the Liara and Tali romance paths the best as there seemed to have been an effort to create dialogue and actions which drew the characters together in a meaningful way. I in no way chose different romance paths in order to see the "pay off scenes", but instead was more interested in the actual growth of the relationships.

When I got to ME3, I very much enjoyed the interaction with Specialist Samantha Traynor...[spoiler--->] but playing as a male character there is no romance[<---spoiler]. I became curious as to how playing a female character would change the interactions in the series so I went all the way back to the beginning and started a female character (who I modeled a bit after Jack with cropped hair). Interestingly, there are quite a few sequences in each game which play out differently based on the gender of your character.

When I began a romance with Samantha, I was pleased with how well it played out. She is really a significant character who plays a crucial role in your success (literally could not have done it without her skills), and the subtlety of development involved with your romance with her was very well done. I didn't care if I got to see her nude in bed, and the way the shower scene played out was clumsy, but I really thought the relationship development was done very well. She is both charming as a person and successful as a part of the team.

For me, the least interesting possible "romance" partner was the reporter. I did not like her look, her personality, or how there was no relationship up to the point where you could jump in bed. It wasn't until recently that i discovered she was modeled after and voiced by a famous gamesite female reporter I was unfamiliar with.

Modifié par rpmfla, 05 octobre 2012 - 06:00 .

[Foolsfolly]

When I began a romance with Samantha, I was pleased with how well it played out. She is really a significant character who plays a crucial role in your success (literally could not have done it without her skills)

...we have an unshackled AI and the Shadow Broker on board the ship, man. One computes at the speed of light and the other has massive resources and spies everywhere. I like Samantha enough, you know... but it was weird she got information neither EDI or Liara could find.

[rpmfla]

Foolsfolly wrote...

When I began a romance with Samantha, I was pleased with how well it played out. She is really a significant character who plays a crucial role in your success (literally could not have done it without her skills)

...we have an unshackled AI and the Shadow Broker on board the ship, man. One computes at the speed of light and the other has massive resources and spies everywhere. I like Samantha enough, you know... but it was weird she got information neither EDI or Liara could find.

I have to agree with you, but I will add that it has been a long used trope in Sci-fi that humans (with all of their foibles), can often succeed at solving problems when greater powers of intellect and strength fail.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The problem is, where does one draw the line? One could argue that killmoves inhibit player agency.

I have argued that very thing.

I could argue that by archer Warden is terrified of Dragons, and would gladly ahve shot the dragon at the end, but never never would have run right up with it with that greatsword.

It was awfully weird to have a mage charge forward with a greatsword.  Particulary since he didn't meet the strength requirements to use it.

This is a danger of gameplay/story segregation, and that's why I oppose gameplay/story segregation.  Moreover, since I count roleplaying as gameplay, the story then needs to be subservient not just to the game's mechanics, but also to my character design.

I don't see how to do that with cinematics.  Rather than having a cutscene showing the death of the archdemon, they should have us do it ourselves as part of the gameplay.

It's clear that BHioware wants to make RPGs with good, tight, emotional stories, and that doesn't tend mesh very well with RPGs with open worlds and no cinematics and great player agency.

BioWare wants to write tight emotional stories, and that alone is incompatible with a roleplaying game.  BioWare is only contributing part of the story.  The protagonist is under the player's control, not BioWare's.  As such, any storytelling needs to be collaborative.

BioWare cannot simply write the story they want and hand it to us.  I'm happy to read a book or watch a movie, but books and movies don't cost me $60.  BioWare can do better.  BioWare has done better.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 05 octobre 2012 - 06:18 .

[ObserverStatus]

Now I know that it's popular to hate on American sensibilities regarding sex and violence in the media, but let's face it, today's digital animation technology allows violence to be portrayed in a much more appealing manner than sex. As engines get more powerful and processors get more powerful, developers have the option to gib character models into increasingly small pieces, and soon, gamers may be able to disassemble the bodies of their enemies as intricately as buildings in red faction guerilla.
All that improved graphical technology has contributed to cgi depictions of sex, on the other hand, is making them a less pleasant experience by pushing character models deeper into the uncanny valley.

[slimgrin]

rpmfla wrote...
For me, the least interesting possible "romance" partner was the reporter. I did not like her look, her personality, or how there was no relationship up to the point where you could jump in bed. It wasn't until recently that i discovered she was modeled after and voiced by a famous gamesite female reporter I was unfamiliar with.

Indeed, which is why I'm baffled by folks on this site who think Bioware is leading the way in equal representation for women or mature romances. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 05 octobre 2012 - 06:18 .

[Wulfram]

slimgrin wrote...

Indeed, which is why I'm baffled by folks on this site who think Bioware is leading the way in equal representation for women or mature romances. 

Dragon Age is not Mass Effect.