352 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Are you okay with an interpretation of this that means there's no nudity at all, as long as it isn't exempt in a hamfisted and unnecessary way?

For example, is deciding to do fade to blacks as a way to depict the scenes something that makes a scene less mature?

It depends on the love interest and/or the nature of the relationship.

Sex scenes need to act like regular scenes. They should tell us something about the characters, the plot, or the themes of the work.

That's the problem with the DA:O and ME 1 sex scenes: they are one size fits all. They strip away the character's personalities for a generically sexy moment.

DA II and ME 2 were much better in this regards. Isabela is wild and fun-loving; her sex scene is wild and fun-loving. Nudity would be perfectly appropriate. Alternatively, Fenris is emotionally raw. Merrill is sweet and hesitant. Witcher-inspired doggy style scenes wouldn't fit with those characters.

nightcobra8928 wrote...

We saw full frontal male nudity in the Katsumi DLC because of this sculpture. Not only did no one make a big deal of it, but it seems the majority of people never even noticed it.

No, we didn´t. Someone mutilated the statue between now and ME future.

[TheRealJayDee]

daaaav wrote...

I think the point is not that we NEED nudity for a "mature" story but that a "mature" story should treat nudity maturely.

Yep.

Maria Caliban wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...

But people being naked in a shower or naked while making love is...bad?

Except the writers have told us previously that the lack of nudity was because of model restrictions, not because they're terrified of an unclothed body.

If you don't have the means to make a scene like this without it being ridiculous... maybe just don't do it at all?

[Aleya]

ME1 was perfect. Wish they'd stick with that.

I'd rather have no sex scenes than underwear sex. It looks incredibly silly. Plus creating sex scenes requires resources that could otherwise be used to enhance the friendship-only path with the same character, and really that's far more important to me. So, keep them short, sweet, not too detailed and not obviously censored, and I'll be happy.

[philippe willaume]

tmp7704 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

DA II and ME 2 were much better in this regards. Isabela is wild and fun-loving; her sex scene is wild and fun-loving. Nudity would be perfectly appropriate. Alternatively, Fenris is emotionally raw. Merrill is sweet and hesitant. Witcher-inspired doggy style scenes wouldn't fit with those characters.

Surely, they could fit with aggressive Hawke. Scenes revolving around interaction should ideally take into account both personalities involved.

Well I would agree with Maria on that front, the romatic/sex scened should really be in character with the comapnion and not really hawke.
Really there is no way for bioware to know what type off hawke we are going to play. I mean why not a dialoge wheel to get a different ends scene whilst we are at it.
Agressive: yes i know you are a bit timide and reserved, but trust me honney. Now cut your nails and pass me the butter.

Diplomatic: So do prefer Retiff de la Bretonne or the divine marquis?

sacastic:  well so much for my beauty sleep

All joke asside we define what hawke is during the game, picking the mogolian wheel barrow over the spoon for The sexscene is not going to make any difference in how each player see his/her hawke but it will make a difference in how the player sees the companion.

The Wicher got a few things right with romance and sexscene and how sex was appoached in general.
Yes the doggy style scene were just not quite right (i mean you almost expected a 80 german pron music in the background) and there is something to be said about women representation.

that being said Geralt can be anything between faithfull to a man-****/****ton/libertyine/dog according what you want to call it and the secuction, intimate/sex scene matched the charatere relatively well.

phil.

PS and there was no Bridjet Jones knickers in sight.

[TobiTobsen]

Aleya wrote...

ME1 was perfect. Wish they'd stick with that.

I'd rather have no sex scenes than underwear sex. It looks incredibly silly. Plus creating sex scenes requires resources that could otherwise be used to enhance the friendship-only path with the same character, and really that's far more important to me. So, keep them short, sweet, not too detailed and not obviously censored, and I'll be happy.

I support that.

Either ME1 scenes or just a fade to black, but please no "right through the pants" scenes. That just ruins the mood.

[Seth_Holloway]

I preferred DA:O romance scenes to DA:2's


It felt more intimate, actually .. maybe intimate is the wrong word.
For me it almost felt like I was getting to know my characters in a way they probably would not have been comfortable with.

(Especially poor Alistair! he would be mortified)



As far as nudity goes?


Well I think its a little much, there will be nude mods for those who really want that sort of experience.


I'd rather see more suggestive romantic moments, like the near kiss with Kaidan in ME1.


Sure the *ahem* four way?? between the Warden, Isabela, Leliana and Zevran, well.. lets say that would have made one heck of a cut scene!!! jks lol


I think Mr Schumacher is right, its more about your imagination then being flooded with erotica in game.

[ShaggyWolf]

Allan Schumacher wrote...


Perhaps we'd like to leave it up to the imagination of the player for what type of things occur?

If the reason for wanting to see them is little more than "because I want to see them" then the advantage of showing nudity seems to disappear.

I'll try to give you a (hopefully) good reason (or at least an explanation) that makes sense. Let me start by saying though, while I believe nudity should be featured in love scenes, it should be kept "tasteful" like Liara's in ME3. She's naked, but thanks to clever camera angles, you don't see anything. That's the ideal way of doing it imo, and this opinion should be kept in mind when reading the rest of my post.

Now, the reason for inclusion. Because excluding love scenes in favor of a fade to black goes against what happens in the rest of the game. When Hawke goes to challenge the Arishok, I get to be there, see it happen, and fight him. When my companions are going through their individual crisises, I get to be caught up in their feelings and ideas, and help them out, through dialogue and gameplay. I'm not told that Anders is losing control of Justice, I get to see it happen. I'm not told there was a great battle, I get to fight it.

The fade to black romance scenes are the one odd thing in the whole narrative. Now, in DA2, we get to see the before and after, basically the important story telling+character development aspects of a love scene, and that is good. But the actual love scene itself is gone. It's so wierd! For me, at least, that's the "climax," if you will, of the romance plots. There's this rising action, passion and emotion that leads up to it, but when it finally gets there, it goes fade to black. It's not dissimilar to the idea of progressing through DA2's qunari story, only to have the duel with the arishok be done in a fade to black scene. There's all the conflict, character development, emotion and story leading up to it, but the big part is mysteriously gone.

At the very least, imagine the disappointment you'd feel if the Arishok duel was a fade to black. That is the disappointment or frustration I feel with the fade to black romance scenes

It's disappointing to me that my character is conscious, and experiencing (what I feel) is a hugely important part of  his character development and personal story, but all I get to see is a black screen.

That's why the physcial lovemaking scenes themselves should be in game. There doesn't need to be an active gameplay aspect to them, like you said earlier, (Like Assassin Creed 2's "Press X to remove her dress") because active gameplay and active pursuit of an optional story is what leads to the scene to begin with. I'm making the effort, and showing the interest in these romance stories, that's enough to justify a romance scene. Then, since the scenes themselves should be in the game, the characters should be properly naked in said scenes. No showering in undies, for example, because it's just silly. I don't need to explain why nudity itself shouldn't be an issue in a game with decapitations, gore, and horrifying imagery (broodmothers, Quentin's experiment etc), as most other posters in this thread have done so already.

I will point out though that nudity itself, in the context of a romance scene, would serve the purpose of counterbalancing all that negative imagery. A romance scene depicting beauty, passion, and positive emotions serves to counterbalance the evil we fight and the negativeity and destruction we witness in the rest of the game.

So does this make sense? I'm the kind of person that really gets into these games you make. I get pumped when I get into fights with my 2h warrior in DA2. I cried when certain characters died in ME3. I yell, taunt, and laugh at my enemies when I'm fighting in the ME games. I raise my fists in victory every time I beat the suicide mission. Romance dialogue in all the DA and ME games makes me flush and smile like a fool. So it's like pulling the rug out from under me when you guys do a fade to black like in DA2 and ME2.

Modifié par Valadras21, 04 octobre 2012 - 12:03 .

[EricHVela]

Imagination is the way to go. No polygons can substitute for what the mind can create. If you require polygons to fantasize about it, that qualifies either for a fetish or inexperience. I don't think this is the kind of game to cater to sexual fetishes nor attempt to educate people on sex.

I think that forcing gratuitous pixel porn on people is not a sign of maturity.

"Tasteful nudity" in a game where players come from all walks of life sounds to me like "suggested nudity" instead of blatant nudity. In my mind, I see kids giggling at a full frontal when that is in games. The rest of us don't need it.

Why does anyone need it?

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 04 octobre 2012 - 12:55 .

[_isia_]

For me fade to black is the best way. It is much more ok, than odd animation. I would love more sex hidden between the lines, a tension between characters instead of a few seconds of nudity (in ME always before the final battle..). Nudity should be present in game as long as it adds sth to the story, it is natural, but sex scenes don't make romantic moments more intense. Rather grotesque. They look just awkward, simple, cheap. All atmosphere dissapeares when i see these manequin moves, naked or not.
More hot talks would be much better, much more "naked" and mature. And i don't mean just vulgar lines, but showing some desire between characters, some lust. And it should increase with time, long time, not just explode - four talks and we are done..
I would definitley prefere to spend much more time on building relationship (like in DAO), than have quick naked or almost naked clip after few "romantic" lines (like in me 2/3).
And finally yes, shower in clothes is ridiculous, if you chose to not show body - show wet neck, arms or legs, use such camera angle to make the point without making the scene awkward

sorry for my english

[Zkyire]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

i am sorry, but this is a cheap and - IMHO - easy way out...BAH! makes me wanna puke...why rate a game "mature" (meaning: your player is normally 18+ years old (at least here in germany) and able to have sex himself how and with whom he wants to) if you censor it or only imply things?

Perhaps we'd like to leave it up to the imagination of the player for what type of things occur?

If the reason for wanting to see them is little more than "because I want to see them" then the advantage of showing nudity seems to disappear.

The idea is to make full use of the M or 18+ rating the game gets.

If the game is rated for adults only then the content should be for adults only.

I'm not saying we need a hardcore sex scene or a half hour torture scene showing every twisted detail, but kissing and then fading to black is the kind of stuff they might do in a disney movie.

[Nashimura]

Honestly the Liara scene in 3 was more risky than in the first game....really mixed bag overall in that department.

[Wulfram]

They shouldn't make content to fit the ratings, they should make the game they want to make, and let the rating fall where it will.

[Sejborg]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Perhaps we'd like to leave it up to the imagination of the player for what type of things occur?

If the reason for wanting to see them is little more than "because I want to see them" then the advantage of showing nudity seems to disappear.

My imagination sucks. When the fade to black happens, the only thing I take away from the experience is: "done". There is nothing more than that. "Done". If it is shown how they do it and so on, then I will put way more meaning into the act.

When I am roleplaying someone who uses every chance to flirt with a chick, then all that flirting and romance is building to those two wanting to have sex with each other. Then when it is finally time for them to do the act, and express their love for eachother, then I don't want the scene to be cut off before that happens. You don't cut away and show something else when it's time to throw the one ring into the fire of Mount Doom. No, you show what happens.

For me part of the bonding between two people who love eachother is being nude together. Yes: "because I want to see them" as you put it. It's a pretty important part of the attraction and bonding between two people. It's a physical way to get to know eachother. Or at least it is for me. So that is why fade to black falls flat on me.

And for the morons who will likely jump at me, as has happens times before. No. I don't ask for porn. I ask for emotions. I ask for bonding. And nudity is part of that. 

---
Edit: Or if nudity is not part of the sex, like in the movie "8 mile" where it is just a quickie then show me that.

Modifié par Sejborg, 04 octobre 2012 - 01:55 .

[meanieweenie]

Why can't they just make the scenes from angles that don't show any pink parts? You know.... hands, thighs, shoulders up. You'll still know what's going on and it can be pretty heated but there won't actually be any "offensive" eye candy. Wouldn't that be the best of both worlds? Just my two cents.

[Hainkpe]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
For example, is deciding to do fade to blacks as a way to depict the scenes something that makes a scene less mature?

I do not think it makes the scene less mature. Rather it changes the focus. Which is preferred, focus on the sex or the relationship? Both aspects can be done with a fade to black or shown explicitly. 

My personal preference is fade to black. It gives me, the player, the chance to take the scene where I want, or not take it at all. It's open ended whereas with an explicit scene, what you see is what you get. 

[Maclimes]

I think there's a happy medium.

Instead of the underwear-clad models in DA:O, just have barbie-doll style models, and use camera angles to hide the fact that the characters lack genitalia. Similar to what was done in ME1, especially with the woman with the Citadel. A little side-boob, some bare buttocks, dangerously low angles on the pelvis, things like that.

You can show a nude character without actually showing the actual sex organs.

So you have these two nude characters, kissing, rubbing, and whatnot. Then you fade to black. Sex is implied, nudity is not shied away from, and we manage to avoid turning it into porn.

Modifié par Maclimes, 04 octobre 2012 - 01:50 .

[meanieweenie]

Maclimes wrote...

I think there's a happy medium.

Instead of the underwear-clad models in DA:O, just have barbie-doll style models, and use camera angles to hide the fact that the characters lack genitalia. Similar to what was done in ME1, especially with the woman with the Citadel. A little side-boob, some bare buttocks, dangerously low angles on the pelvis, things like that.

You can show a nude character without actually showing the actual sex organs.

So you have these two nude characters, kissing, rubbing, and whatnot. Then you fade to black. Sex is implied, nudity is not shied away from, and we manage to avoid turning it into porn.

Exactly! Huzzah!

[Tootles FTW]

I prefer quality romance dialogue over quantity of flesh-covered pixels.
If they can provide both, great, but emotional intimacy always comes first to my romance-inclined lady-brain.

[Mykel54]

I think DAO sex scenes were terrible, but DA2 weren´t much better to be honest. I agree with the general sentiment that ME1 love scenes were some of the best, for several reasons:

-Before the scene there was some conversation, talking about some deep stuff, not just: let´s have sex, like ME2 love scenes.

-The scene took place on a place that makes sense, like shepard´s quarters. And the cinematic goes from the two characters talking, to having sex in the same room. I like the feeling of continuity in the cinematic, not just having the two characters pop out somewhere and have sex.

- Personally i couldn´t care less about nudity, in my opinion it is about imagination, the more you have, the less you need to see. I have plenty so i am happy with the classic kiss and a fade to black, however, i appreciate ME1 sex scene for being tasteful (not porn), it feels like a romantic scene (thanks to the music), not just any sex scene.

I think that should be the objective, to make the scene looks romantic, whenever you need to show skin for that or not it´s up to bioware. I´m of the opinion that most romantic stuff is concerned with dialogue, music, animations (hugs, kisses, etc.) rather than showing nude parts.

[Leoroc]

If we are to be subjected to broodmother boobies, let us at least see some normal ones. It enhances the grotesqueness of the brood mothers to have comparison.

Disclaimer: gay and not actually into boobs, but still support nudity

[Maverick827]

You can't equate nudity to violence and say "why is one okay and the other isn't" because combat is a core game play element and "sex" is not.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Let's not forget.

Liara in sex scene = naked.
Everyone else = Underwear hump.

Yeah, I don't understand Bioware there.

[LadyWench]

Maclimes wrote...
I think there's a happy medium.
Instead of the underwear-clad models in DA:O, just have barbie-doll style models, and use camera angles to hide the fact that the characters lack genitalia. Similar to what was done in ME1...A little side-boob, some bare buttocks, dangerously low angles on the pelvis, things like that.
You can show a nude character without actually showing the actual sex organs.
So you have these two nude characters, kissing, rubbing, and whatnot. Then you fade to black. Sex is implied, nudity is not shied away from, and we manage to avoid turning it into porn.

^Yes! So much this!

Maverick827 wrote...
You can't equate nudity to violence
and say "why is one okay and the other isn't" because combat is a core
game play element and "sex" is not.

This is a really good point. The Sex vs. Violence argument makes sense from a social and cultural standpoint, but the devs have said that it's not so much a squeamishness issue as it is a practical application one and incorporating it is tricky (or, more acurately, the devs' choice to incorporate it--even though the concept of building romance into a story has been around awhile, let's not forget that actual sex scenes or implied sex is still a relatively new facet to the mainstream RPG videogame experience).

Still, I agree that once the choice has been made to include it in some way, some consistency in delivery and attention to what might push it into the realm of ridiculous instead of tasteful should be considered (see Maclimes' suggestion, above).
Edited for misspellings and a raging case of stupid fingers. <_<

Modifié par LadyWench, 04 octobre 2012 - 03:23 .

[Beerfish]

What people want:



What people get.

[LinksOcarina]

I find this entire argument unusual, because the romance scenes in BioWare games are pretty tasteful and actually intimate enough to be considered romance scenes. You don't need to see the sex to know it happened, but seeing someone kiss another agressively, or cuddling in bed after the fact, or so forth, is all you really need. A few moments of passion with intimate moments in between.

That is maturity. If games can show intimacy without going for the full on sex shots, then games become respectful.