77 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Attributes, it seems to me, serve very little purpose that couldn't be better served by Talents instead.  So why not get rid of them?

The chief thing attributes do, is make you spend a bunch points on your classes main stat.  You need to spend a bunch just to be able to keep up with the levelling and to be able to equip level appropriate weapons, and you should really spend as much of the rest of your points on this attribute too if you want to be effective.  This isn't so much interesting decision making as it is a trap for newer players who might think that investing in other stats is worthwhile.

There are some purposes served by attributes.  If you want your character to be tougher, then you can invest points in constitution.  If you want more stamina/mana, you can invest in willpower..

But you could easily add a couple of talent trees called "Constitution" and "Willpower" which would be available to all characters and achieved much the same end, but more interestingly.  The first talent in the constitution tree might boost health by +20, the second might add to regeneration, and another one might allow the character to heal itself on a fairly long cooldown.  You could add a "Cunning" tree that would allow the player to increase defence and critical hits if you really wanted.

[Plaintiff]

So... they wouldn't actually be "abolishing" attributes, then.

I don't really care how stat progression works, but I wouldn't want them converted into talent trees if that meant I was losing points that could be spent on... well, actul talents, that I can see and use.

[aesir05]

why stop at that if talents were just given to you when you reached a certain level, like level 5 you'll get +50 health

also if said attributes were talentified it would make sense to be able to respec talents so if I forgot to bring a rouge and had this nasty chest I could just respec on the fly for cunning open it up and then proceed onwards going back to my original spec or repec again

[Icinix]

I like the attributes because they add variation to the builds.

You can have two characters with the same skill set and the same class - but the attributes would vary their role in combat slightly.

Although it doesn't matter so much now - attributes used to have other roles, such as intelligence or wisdom presenting unique dialogue choices, or strength being able to move a log out of the way etc. Those kind of things have died a bit in recent years - but man I would love to see them make a return.

Anyway - I like attributes.

[Wulfram]

Plaintiff wrote...

So... they wouldn't actually be "abolishing" attributes, then.

Sure it would.  The things now called attributes would no longer exist.  Only talents would exist.  And the attack stats would be utterly abolished, under my proposal at least.

I don't really care how stat progression works, but I wouldn't want them converted into talent trees if that meant I was losing points that could be spent on... well, actul talents, that I can see and use.

You would probably want to add extra talent points, if you're increasing the number of trees available.

And, if you're not interesting in what the new talents offer, you're free to focus on other things.

[Knight of Dane]

I'd rather they put more work into detailing it.

[Plaintiff]

Icinix wrote...
strength being able to move a log out of the way

I would like that, or talents that have uses outside of battle.

They couldn't be too heavily involved in the main plot though, or at least there'd have to be workarounds for everything. It would be pretty lame if the game wasn't able to be completed because you hadn't built your character the "right" way.

[Wulfram]

Knight of Dane wrote...

I'd rather they put more work into detailing it.

Why?

What does it do that couldn't be done better with talents?

From my point of view, it's an inherently inferior way of doing things, because it's always going to be playing around with little percentages and is always going to give passive bonuses, not active ones.

And it's inherently ridiculous to have the PC end up with 5 times the strength they started out with.

[MichaelStuart]

I have never like attributes, so I support this full heartily.
I prefur any stats to be in the form of skills and equipment.

[Plaintiff]

Wulfram wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

I'd rather they put more work into detailing it.

Why?

What does it do that couldn't be done better with talents?

From my point of view, it's an inherently inferior way of doing things, because it's always going to be playing around with little percentages and is always going to give passive bonuses, not active ones.

And it's inherently ridiculous to have the PC end up with 5 times the strength they started out with.

Doesn't converting the stats into talents have the same drawbacks, though? A boost to health from the "Constitution" skill tree would be a passive bonus either way, and you still have the issue of the PC being being much stronger than they were at the start.

[Knight of Dane]

Wulfram wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

I'd rather they put more work into detailing it.

Why?

What does it do that couldn't be done better with talents?

From my point of view, it's an inherently inferior way of doing things, because it's always going to be playing around with little percentages and is always going to give passive bonuses, not active ones.

And it's inherently ridiculous to have the PC end up with 5 times the strength they started out with.

I can't see how talents can make it "better" I could see how it could get the same job done.

I want stats that can be used by all classes. I was sad to see ap and such go in DA2 as more of those numerals would be great for evolving verying combat. 

[syllogi]

I really didn't like Skyrim's leveling system, as an example, and would rather see attributes have more meaning (like in dialogue) than do away with them completely.

Taking stuff out entirely isn't fixing whatever problems they had in past games.

[formaristarry]

Maybe some attributes as talents and not others? I liked how in Awakening you had health/mana upgrades in the talents, by building up those two there I could spend more points on other attributes like cunning or dexterity, which worked well for my rogue.

[Wulfram]

Plaintiff wrote...

Doesn't converting the stats into talents have the same drawbacks, though? A boost to health from the "Constitution" skill tree would be a passive bonus either way,

Firstly, the boost to health would be delivered in a bigger lump, rather than in small morsels.  This, to me, makes it inherently more enjoyable because it's something you can really feel having an immediate impact on gameplay.

Secondly, you can deliver effective boosts to health by other means.  A self heal ability would fit in nicely, so might something that gave you a temporary damage reduction ability.

and you still have the issue of the PC being being much stronger than they were at the start.

I meant stronger as in the Strength attribute.  You're right that this wouldn't have any direct effect on the power progression.

[Knight of Dane]

But aren't those abilities that are already there? At least I think one of the skills in the puprle skill tree; Da2; has a damage reduction one.

[EricHVela]

I read: "It's too complicated. Statistical challenges are boring despite that they're at the heart of what made RPGs. Make it easier for me. Make it like CoD!"

Your wish is being granted in some manner.

[Wulfram]

ReggarBlane wrote...

I read: "It's too complicated. Statistical challenges are boring despite that they're at the heart of what made RPGs. Make it easier for me. Make it like CoD!"

Your wish is being granted in some manner.

What's complicated about dumping points into STR, DEX or MAG depending on your class?

I'd advocating a change that should create more real choices and thus more real complexity, not less.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 octobre 2012 - 12:45 .

[Marbazoid]

There are problems with the attribute system but those flaws are due to the way Bioware chose to implement attributes in both DA:O and DA:2.

These problems are not to do with "attribute systems" as a whole. Many games in the past have used these systems and, in my opinion, implemented them better.

Modifié par Marbazoid, 04 octobre 2012 - 12:49 .

[Teddie Sage]

I'd rather have them allocated automatically instead of getting rid of them completely. I don't like playing with numbers at all, it reminds me how much I struggle with mathematics.

[Bfler]

So you want the Skyrim perk trees in DA?

[Teddie Sage]

On a side note, I also hated the levelling system in Skyrim. My OCD set in many times because I wanted to do everything, collect everything, unlock everything in one file. I'm a completionist and not being able to re-spec is like a painful idea for my OCD mind.

[Marbazoid]

Teddie Sage wrote...

I'd rather have them allocated automatically instead of getting rid of them completely. I don't like playing with numbers at all, it reminds me how much I struggle with mathematics.

It's because attributes are completely detached from the game world and setting. How strong your character is has ONLY a statistical benefit in dragon age games. 

A character with very high dexterity is no different from a character with very high strength outside of direct combat situations. If they governed social interaction and adventuring skills, perhaps you would look beyond the direct combat improvement. 

A really obvious example: If not putting a single point into intelligence at character creation made your character stupid, there’s no way you would ignore it , even if it had trivial statistical improvement for your warrior character. This is, unless your role-playing a stupid warrior.

[Master Shiori]

Wulfram wrote...


Why?

What does it do that couldn't be done better with talents?

It keeps the talent trees from being bloated, which is a serious issue with your idea.

Increasing the characters primary stats is mandatory under the current system, otherwise, you wouldn't be able to keep up with enemies and equipment as you progress in levels. 

What you suggest boils down to "do you want to focus on making your character stronger by increasing his strength, magic, constituion, etc., or do you want to spend those talent point on new abilities and/or spells?". Right now, the current system gives you a limited amount oif talent points that you need to spend wisely, or risk ending up with a ineffective build. Your solution would further restrict this to the point where a player would find it almost impossible to balance attribute talents and ability talents and keep up with the difficulty of the content. You're likely to either end up with glass cannon type of character or somebody who's a walking wall, but hardly has any abilities at his disposal.


In short, this isn't D&D where you focus on talents and atributes are only improved through talents or occasional item. The only way your idea would work is if Bioware completely reworked how leveling and abilities work in DA, and I can't see them doing that at this point in developement.

[Merlex]

Wulfram wrote...

Firstly, the boost to health would be delivered in a bigger lump, rather than in small morsels.  This, to me, makes it inherently more enjoyable because it's something you can really feel having an immediate impact on gameplay.

But wait a minute, you said:

Wulfram wrote...

And it's inherently ridiculous to have the PC end up with 5 times the strength they started out with.

It's ridiculous to have the PC to end up with five times their original strength, but a large boost of health in one level is not?

[nijnij]

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing yesterday (among other things) as I began a new Dragon Age 2 playthrough. And I used to feel the same about other RPGs too (say, Diablo 2 back in the day) ; as exciting as getting a new talent/skill is, having to distribute attribute points has always felt incredibly tedious to me, not to mention very random : while you can usually tell by its description whether you're going to have fun with a skill or not, I find it hard to apply attribute points on your first couple of playthroughs without crossing your fingers hoping that you made the right choice and it won't break your game eventually.

I'm not arguing for less choice (as I know a lot of people will argue that more stats = more choices), I'm arguing for another definition of choice ; to me, having to plan your character way ahead or spend fifteen minutes doing various calculations every time you level up isn't exactly roleplaying. Hell, even the whole leveling up notion is overdone to me. That my character learns new abilities during their journey makes sense ; that he has to do it through that thing called XPing, meh. Seems like a very artificial, dated system to me, video games keep evolving graphics and scope wise but somehow this one particular gameplay point seems forever attached to the definition of RPG, while to me, RPG just means you roleplay and get a lot of choices. My character's appearance, background, personality and freedom within the story matter more in that regard that a bunch of stats.

Modifié par nijnij, 04 octobre 2012 - 01:12 .