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Don't turn any companions into tools for pointless drama


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#1
ShadowLordXII

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I'm not saying that drama is bad, but in a lot of Bioware games that I've played, I've noticed a particular path in regards to some party members.

In these games, there's always that one character who'll do something stupid that contradicts their personality and/or capabilities and the entire situation is clearly written in for the sake of "pointless drama" that doesn't add anything to the resolution to the plot or the overarching story.

Here's a few examples:

Knights of the Old Republic - Bastila

It's not even that she was preachy that annoys me...it's that she becomes hypocritical at best and traitorous at worst and never gets called out for it.

At the end of the game, she turns to the darkside!   It's not even that...it's everything that happened before hand! After all of the lives that were lost to protect her, all of the hope that the jedi had placed in her and her talents, all of the danger that the player goes through to save her, Taris gets bombarded killing billions of people and leaving it as a globe of debris even 300 years later, and Dantooine is destroyed with many jedi killed and dozens captured to be put away in Malak's room so that he could draw their life force into his power.  And Bastila basically turned her back on all of it because Malak shocked her for a week. (Not saying torture isn't bad or painful, there are plenty of "muggle" POW's who were tortured for much longer and never said anything!)

And no one ever brings it up again or calls her out on it.

The sacrifice of the Ender Spire? Pointless!  The lives that were killed when Taris was bombed? They died for nothing! The hopes of the Jedi Order? Spat on! The efforts of the player to protect her so that she could help save the galaxy? All for nothing!

It's also really annoying when she was the one who always preached about the allures of the darkside and to be constantly vigilant against it!  So love leads to the darkside huh?  So does pride...so betweeen the two, I'd rather be in love!  And guess what "redeems" you? LOVE! 

Dragon Age: Origins - Alistair

I get it and completely sympathize.  Loghain betrayed and left Cailan, the wardens and many of his countrymen to die at Ostagar.  Whether or not you agree with Loghain's actions, I at least understand why Alistair would be ticked when the Warden spares Loghain and makes him a warden.

"He deserves to die, he deserves justice!  AND YOU MADE HIM ONE OF US!?"

I love the line, but after that...I just...wow...Hardened Alistair leaves the wardens on the eve of the battle against the Archdemon.  Doesn't that make him just as bad as Loghain? Isn't that exactly what Loghain did? Leave his people and friends when they need him the most?  He doesn't even take part in the charge against the Archdemon despite the fact that he's still a Grey Warden.

He also takes a 180 in regards to his friendship with you and treats you coldly after everything you've been through together and everything you've done for him.  Aren't you the reason that Alistair became hardened and started standing up for himself?  That you've even come this far?  Alistair forgets all of that and goes against his character by leaving you because of Loghain.  Even hardened, Alistair usually had a clear head on his shoulders and was a generally good person...it just doesn't make sense for him to ditch you before the final battle because you didn't kill Loghain.  Couldn't we have had an option to persuade him to stay like Shepard had with Wrex in ME1?

Dragon Age 2 - Anders

Do I even need to say anything?  Blowing up a Chantry filled with thousands of innocent people just to make a point, knowing that it would lead to a war where even more innocent people woud die isn't noble...he was a terrorist.  I don't want another terrorist as my companion.  He had his reasons, I know and they make sense on a certain level.  But he went too far by murdering innocent people.  Why didn't he blow up the Templar HQ with a smaller bomb?

Mass Effect 2 and 3 - Virmire Survivor

For the most part, Mass Effect handled it's drama very well, when a companion or npc threatened to blow open your head, it wasn't unreasonably.

For instance, both Wrex confrontations in ME1 and ME3 were well done, tense and strong character moments for Wrex.  It showed that Wrex was even willing to risk his life and friendship with Shepard for the sake of the Krogan people.  In the first situation, Wrex was conflicted and at first unwilling to allow a potential cure for the genophage to be destroyed.  It also had multiple outcomes: You could kill Wrex, have Ashley kill Wrex or talk him down in a manner worthy of your alignment.  

In ME3, you've sold his people down river without any hope of ever being cured of the genophage.  So he's really just there for a last ditch effort at revenge and honestly doesn't care if he lives or dies.  I've never betrayed the krogan while Wrex was alive, but I've seen videos of Wrex's death in ME3 and his final attempt to shoot Shepard whle saying, "I know..what...you...did!"  It was a chilling moment that illustrated how ruthless the war against the reapers had made Shepard and compound it with the fact that you killed Mordin...it drives home the question of whether or not the ends does justify the means.

Then we come to the Virmire Survivor in ME2, who pretty much tells you to shove it and abandons you in your darkest hour.  Why?  Because you made the grave mistake of dying in a situation that you had no control over and because you're working with the organization who revived you.  The survivor doesn't even let Shepard tell the whole story of what's going on and why Cerberus is involved, or to make it clear that Shepard is not working for Cerberus, just with them to save lives.  It's especially jarring if this was your ME1 love interest whose treating you this way...and they really think that an email will solve everything?  I was so baffled by Ashley's reaction that I just said screw it and got with Tali

Not that there's no justification for the Survivor's suspicion, but the character just comes across as cruel, selfish and petty.  Tali was also suspicious at first when she first met Shepard in ME2, but at least she listened enough to determine that Shepard was still trustworthy and joined Shepard in his darkest hour.

In ME3, I felt like the Survivor was outright paranoid of Shepard.  Even going as far as to question if Shepard was a spy even after Shepard not only turned himself in; destroyed the Collectors, saving millions of colonists as a result and had been under house arrest for close to a year!  They even go as far as to trust Udina over you for a while...you know...the guy who screwed you and Shepard over in ME1 and nearly doomed the galaxy as a result?

Sorry if this comes across as a Rant, but I don't DA3 to give us companions for us to influence and then turn them into tools for pointless drama or situations that the player has no control over regardless of anything that they've said or done up to that point.

In short: I don't want to have a sweet, loyal and devout female love interest turn around and handcuff me to the mast as bait for a Kraken because it's dramatic.

Modifié par ShadowLordXII, 05 octobre 2012 - 01:48 .


#2
Maclimes

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ShadowLordXII wrote...
In short: I don't want to have a sweet, loyal and devout female love interest turn around and handcuff me to the mast as bait for a Kraken because it's dramatic.


Tough?

Welcome to story-telling. It's gonna be a bumpy road.

#3
DarkKnightHolmes

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Alistair was always a childish baby. Beside, it was for gameplay purpose anyway.

#4
TsaiMeLemoni

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Maclimes wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...
In short: I don't want to have a sweet, loyal and devout female love interest turn around and handcuff me to the mast as bait for a Kraken because it's dramatic.


Tough?

Welcome to story-telling. It's gonna be a bumpy road.


this is my inclination as well. Drama and story progression have to come from somewhere. Why not characters you've spent time getting to know? It helps make the drama feel more personal, and has a deeper emotional impact.

#5
unbentbuzzkill

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pointless drama is the best kind, i'm just saying.

#6
Dragoonlordz

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TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...
In short: I don't want to have a sweet, loyal and devout female love interest turn around and handcuff me to the mast as bait for a Kraken because it's dramatic.


Tough?

Welcome to story-telling. It's gonna be a bumpy road.


this is my inclination as well. Drama and story progression have to come from somewhere. Why not characters you've spent time getting to know? It helps make the drama feel more personal, and has a deeper emotional impact.


So if Bioware decided Miranda had decided to take over from TiM between ME2 and ME3 and she was the one out to kill Shepard who now threatens her organisation. Which concludes with you having to kill her at the end. You would be okay with that?

Personally I prefer they use new characters if they have it in mind that character will be for example a mass murderer as opposed to twisting old ones to serve new purposes. It does have emotional impact when twist an old one you liked into one do not but I don't think it is (imho) the ideal emotional impact looking for because is a negative emotion and reaction as opposed to a positive one. Of course it's up to them what they do with the characters they create, it is just my preference that they use new ones instead of twisting old ones.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 octobre 2012 - 10:07 .


#7
Sasie

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ShadowLordXII wrote...

He also takes a 180 in regards to his friendship with you and treats you coldly after everything you've been through together and everything you've done for him.  Aren't you the reason that Alistair became hardened and started standing up for himself?  That you've even come this far?  Alistair forgets all of that and goes against his character by leaving you because of Loghain.  Even hardened, Alistair usually had a clear head on his shoulders and was a generally good person...it just doesn't make sense for him to ditch you before the final battle because you didn't kill Loghain.  Couldn't we have had an option to persuade him to stay like Shepard had with Wrex in ME1?


It shouldn't always be possible to convince everyone to go with the players choice in my opinion. Alistair hated Loghain, possibly as much as a Cousland Warden might have hated Howe. Really Loghain killed the man Alistair saw as a father figure and then made him a warden, something Alistair sees as a honor. I don't agree with Alistair on any of these issues and find him a bit childish at times but it makes no sense for him to risk his life for a country and a order who turned their back on him and in his mind betrayed everything they were suppose to stand for.

ShadowLordXII wrote...
Dragon Age 2 - Anders

Do I even need to say anything?  Blowing up a Chantry filled with thousands of innocent people just to make a point, knowing that it would lead to a war where even more innocent people woud die isn't noble...he was a terrorist.  I don't want another terrorist as my companion.  He had his reasons, I know and they make sense on a certain level.  But he went too far by murdering innocent people.  Why didn't he blow up the Templar HQ with a smaller bomb? 


Possibly the best part of Dragon Age 2, I wouldn't change it for the world. Drama and conflicts is good, especially among companions or even lovers. I rank Carth's reaction to Revan falling to the dark side, again, among the best parts of Knights of the old republic and it becomes much, much harder to stay on that path when he returns and tries to plead for Revan to change her mind one last time after Malak is dead. In fact I usually go down that path and have Revan sacrificing herself on the Starforge after turning to the dark side simple because I find that ending so much more touching then the one where Revan is fully redeemed and declared a hero. 

So long explanation short, I hope Bioware keep adding these characters. Anders actions honestly took me by surprise and I was staring at the screen in disbelief when he blew up the Chantry, best part is? Well I love moments like this.

#8
TsaiMeLemoni

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...
In short: I don't want to have a sweet, loyal and devout female love interest turn around and handcuff me to the mast as bait for a Kraken because it's dramatic.


Tough?

Welcome to story-telling. It's gonna be a bumpy road.


this is my inclination as well. Drama and story progression have to come from somewhere. Why not characters you've spent time getting to know? It helps make the drama feel more personal, and has a deeper emotional impact.


So if Bioware decided Miranda had decided to take over from TiM between ME2 and ME3 and she was the one out to kill Shepard who now threatens her organisation. Which concludes with you having to kill her at the end. You would be okay with that?

Personally I prefer they use new characters if they have it in mind that character will be for example a mass murderer as opposed to twisting old ones to serve new purposes. It does have emotional impact when twist an old one you liked into one do not but I don't think it is (imho) the ideal emotional impact looking for because is a negative emotion and reaction as opposed to a positive one. Of course it's up to them what they do with the characters they create, it is just my preference that they use new ones instead of twisting old ones.


If it made sense, then yes. Since Miranda leaves Cerberus, and its more twisted morals, the scenario you just mentioned wouldn't make sense at all. That's not 'pointless drama', that's nonsensical drama.

For me, it made sense that Anders did what he did because of his content through the game. Alistair leaving makes a certain amount of sense, since he is so uncertain about everything except his loyalty to Duncan throughout the game.

Modifié par TsaiMeLemoni, 04 octobre 2012 - 10:11 .


#9
hexaligned

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As long as they keep the ability to escape through dialogue in the game, it's fine.  It's not something I generally do, but there are always one or two characters I just can't stomach.  (Alistair, and Anders for these two games).  I would be fine with Bioware trying something new, and leaving romance and drama in general out of a game for once.  Not all stories need it, it would be refreshing.  It's also not going to happen though.

#10
Wulfram

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Bastila was just a padawan for all her abilities, and the impression I have is that the Dark Side has a revolving door in Star Wars.

Alistair could mostly have done with some more warning. Telling me I should kill the guy after I've accepted their surrender is inconvenient.

I was mostly OK with Anders. Though I kind of wish his possession hadn't happened off screen.

#11
Pedrak

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It isn't pointless drama if it is, character-wise, consistent.

For example: Anders is a bitter member of a persecuted minority, who had dear friends turned into "Someone flew over the cuckoo's nest" zombies, and he is increasingly influenced by a vengeful supernatural creature. He is also an extremist, a desperate man full of deep-seated anger, someone who has been both a prisoner and a fugitive since he was a child, and, as a bonus, something of a whiny emo. Looking back at it, what he did was stupid and horrible, but it fits.

I would be lying if I said that when I saw that explosion and realized what had happened I wasn't both astonished and brimming with fury. But that just means the writers did a good job here. I'd argue that a scene that elicits such an emotional response from the player is a winner - and incidentally I thought it was one of the highlights of DA2.

Modifié par Pedrak, 04 octobre 2012 - 10:30 .


#12
Dragoonlordz

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TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

If it made sense, then yes. Since Miranda leaves Cerberus, and its more twisted morals, the scenario you just mentioned wouldn't make sense at all. That's not 'pointless drama', that's nonsensical drama.

For me, it made sense that Anders did what he did because of his content through the game. Alistair leaving makes a certain amount of sense, since he is so uncertain about everything except his loyalty to Duncan throughout the game.


As the writers they can make anything they want make sense. You cannot dismiss a possiblity just because you do not think it is possible. It is always possible as the writers just have write a situation where the character evolved their stance. So the question was would you be 'happy' about it if they chose to do so (saying do not think would make sense does not count because they could make anything make sense if writer wanted).

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 octobre 2012 - 10:57 .


#13
BlueMagitek

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Eh? Bastilla and Ali made sense. Bastilla was always prideful and she found herself in a position that accelerated her fall.

#14
iSignIn

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Please do not equate Kaidan with Ashley when you haven't played with both to equal amount.

#15
TCBC_Freak

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I wasn't happy with the VS in ME2 either. I know why Ash/Kad couldn't join you from both story and mechanic reason, but they could have not joined you and still heard you out, maybe if you par/ren-ed them they would give you a bit about, "Okay, I hear you, maybe I can come back after I finish this mission," like Tali, just not showing up because there isn't enough game after you meet them. That was close to what TsaiMeLemoni wrote as, "nonsensical drama."

Alistair makes sense because he's childish hardened or not. It was spur of the moment and he wasn't thinking. Kind of like Sebastian in DA:2 forsaking his vows to go after his families killers. He's a weathervane blown about by the winds of emotion, the only difference is that we have the rest of the game to help Sebastian were as Alistair had his break down at the end.

Anders' actions make about as much sense as anyone blowing up a group of innocent people, which is none to anyone else who looks at it. He's a terrorist, but no one starts as that, he became that and mostly because he's sharing his brain with Justice. Which honestly, despite what Anders says, it may have been Justice that did it, Anders just didn't know it or want to know it. A running subplot is that Anders doesn't even know where Justice ends and he starts half the time.

I won't touch Bastilla because it's been way too long since I have played the game to trust how I remember it and if she was justified or it was a 180 for no reason.

All that being said, I do hear what the OP is saying, I just don't think Bioware has done it much. So I do agree that they need to keep from doing it. I have seen this type of in other games (a few FF games jump to mind... as well a ton of action/adventure games).

Just my two cents.

Edit: I'd like to say also that I felt they handeled both the VS character's well in ME:3.

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 04 octobre 2012 - 11:25 .


#16
vortex216

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i disagree almost completley with alistair and anders
 like people before me stated that alistair basically idolized duncan, and revered him as a hero. then his best friend comes along and (to him) gives the most cruel, corrupt man the best honor anyone could possibly receive after killing duncan. abandoning the wardens was not the way to go but hey, nobodoy's perfect

anders did what had to be done. it was cruel, almost evil and started a war. and it was nessecary. the templars were out of control, imprisoning and "tranquilizing" hordes of mages, showing no sign of respect for them whatsoever. thw templars were as bad if not worse than the tevinter magisters they are doing this because of. the world needed to change. blowing up the chantry was the perfect way of doing it. how else could he get the world's attention? blowing up the templar's quarters would have made it a petty hate crime. and how would he sneak in there in the first place without being caught?! i dont see why people kill anders, his act was JUSTIFIED.
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#17
daaaav

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Agree.

The one that annoyed me the most though was Udina...

Didn't like the bastard but trusted him none the less.

Don't give the player agency in the development of a character and then railroad them anyway.

#18
Barbantious

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vortex216 wrote...

i disagree almost completley with alistair and anders
 like people before me stated that alistair basically idolized duncan, and revered him as a hero. then his best friend comes along and (to him) gives the most cruel, corrupt man the best honor anyone could possibly receive after killing duncan. abandoning the wardens was not the way to go but hey, nobodoy's perfect

anders did what had to be done. it was cruel, almost evil and started a war. and it was nessecary. the templars were out of control, imprisoning and "tranquilizing" hordes of mages, showing no sign of respect for them whatsoever. thw templars were as bad if not worse than the tevinter magisters they are doing this because of. the world needed to change. blowing up the chantry was the perfect way of doing it. how else could he get the world's attention? blowing up the templar's quarters would have made it a petty hate crime. and how would he sneak in there in the first place without being caught?! i dont see why people kill anders, his act was JUSTIFIED.
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No, his act was STUPID. It made absolutely no sense. He just went "full retard". 

#19
TsaiMeLemoni

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

If it made sense, then yes. Since Miranda leaves Cerberus, and its more twisted morals, the scenario you just mentioned wouldn't make sense at all. That's not 'pointless drama', that's nonsensical drama.

For me, it made sense that Anders did what he did because of his content through the game. Alistair leaving makes a certain amount of sense, since he is so uncertain about everything except his loyalty to Duncan throughout the game.


As the writers they can make anything they want make sense. You cannot dismiss a possiblity just because you do not think it is possible. It is always possible as the writers just have write a situation where the character evolved their stance. So the question was would you be 'happy' about it if they chose to do so (saying do not think would make sense does not count because they could make anything make sense if writer wanted).


I don't even know what we're arguing about. I already told you that if the scenario made sense, I'd be for it. And yes writers can 'make anything make sense' but they'd really have to do some literary arrangement to make it make sense for someone who quit an organization decide that they really actually wanted to be totally evil and overtake it, but that is so far from the purpose of this topic.

#20
Medhia Nox

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I didn't play KOTOR (I know - really? Yes, really.) So I have no comment about this Bastila character.

But I disagree with Alistair. I felt that his reaction made perfect sense - he was a spoiled brat from the beginning of the game. I'm replaying it again in fact knowing full well about this decision and everything he says is so self-centered. He doesn't care about being a Grey Warden at all - Alistair cares about Alistair.

===

Anders - my level of utter and total disdain and loathing for a fictional character has never been stronger. Even months after playing DA 2... the thought of the character makes me despise him anew.

That I had to watch him upstage me in a video game I paid for - there are no words in elvish, entish or the tongues of men. I'm just say'n...

===

I do agree with the spirit of this thread though.

But I'd say instead - don't let an NPC upstage me with his outrageous melodrama.

#21
upsettingshorts

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ShadowLordXII wrote...

Dragon Age 2 - Anders

Do I even need to say anything?  Blowing up a Chantry filled with thousands of innocent people just to make a point, knowing that it would lead to a war where even more innocent people woud die isn't noble...he was a terrorist. 


That's kind of the opposite of pointless drama, isn't it?

Medhia Nox wrote...

Anders - my level of utter and total disdain and loathing for a fictional character has never been stronger. Even months after playing DA 2... the thought of the character makes me despise him anew. 

That I had to watch him upstage me in a video game I paid for - there are no words in elvish, entish or the tongues of men. I'm just say'n... 


Sounds like Anders was highly successful as a character then.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2012 - 03:20 .


#22
upsettingshorts

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Barbantious wrote...

No, his act was STUPID. It made absolutely no sense. He just went "full retard". 


He did it so Meredith would invoke the Rite of Annulment, forcing the mages of Kirkwall to fight the templars and spark a rebellion.

Seems like his "full retard" move that "made no sense" played out exactly as he wanted it to. 

#23
Dave of Canada

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ShadowLordXII wrote...

Knights of the Old Republic - Bastila


It didn't really bother me that Bastila was preachy, the huge spoiler basically just confirms she's preaching because of your previous identity and she's worried about what could occur if you went back to your ways.

I mean, she's just gotten her first padawan, the goddamn lord of the sith himself. I'd be preaching too, hypocrisy included.

Dragon Age: Origins - Alistair


I don't get your point. Had Alistair intervened and stopped the Human Noble from killing Howe and made him a companion, the player's reaction would've been far worse than Alistair's reaction.

Dragon Age 2 - Anders


The Anders story was far from pointless drama and I loathe the guy.

Mass Effect 2 and 3 - Virmire Survivor


This one I agree with, though ME3's writing was rather poor.

In short: I don't want to have a sweet, loyal and devout female love interest turn around and handcuff me to the mast as bait for a Kraken because it's dramatic.


But if that's part of her character, it's not pointless, no?

#24
TEWR

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I don't get your point. Had Alistair intervened and stopped the Human Noble from killing Howe and made him a companion, the player's reaction would've been far worse than Alistair's reaction.


I think the point was that Alistair, even as a King, leaves Ferelden to stand on its own and he doesn't fight in the battle.

Which isn't *strictly* accurate, as I recall a couple things being mentioned:

1) As King, he's contacting other nations to send aid to help fight the Archdemon
2) Arl Eamon will still talk about Alistair as if he's going to fight, which to me signifies that he's fighting as a King and not as a Warden -- though in a pinch he would become said Warden.

But that only works if he's a King. If he goes off and becomes a drunkard... well... then I kinda see the OP's point. He's leaving Ferelden to have only 3 Wardens -- when they could have 4, even if he renounced his Warden oath -- and going off to be a drunkard out of what amounts to spite.

#25
holdenagincourt

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The Kirkwall Chantry was a pretty large building, but there's no way it was "filled with thousands of innocent people." Especially in the middle of the night when the Chantry doors are locked, when the explosion occurred. It was probably a couple hundred at the absolute most, and that's assuming that all the Chantry sisters and lay adherents (males) were living within the Chantry itself.

Having said that, I should note that while I find his actions morally dubious, I think one would have to be making oneself willfully blind to miss the constant hints and foreshadowing that Anders was going to do something nutso and that the status quo was not an option for him.

I assume he chose the Chantry for three reasons: one, the Chantry is the religious authority from which the power and privilege of the Templars derives, at the same time that it is the religious authority that demands the shackling of mages; two, the Gallows is much more heavily guarded, constantly on the lookout for subversive mages, physically and geographically isolated, and overall more difficult to infiltrate than the Chantry; and three, Kirkwall's templars and mages live in the same building, thus he would be making the mages, his cause celebre, collateral damage.