44 réponses à ce sujet

[Dhiro]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...
In short: I don't want to have a sweet, loyal and devout female love interest turn around and handcuff me to the mast as bait for a Kraken because it's dramatic.

Tough?

Welcome to story-telling. It's gonna be a bumpy road.

this is my inclination as well. Drama and story progression have to come from somewhere. Why not characters you've spent time getting to know? It helps make the drama feel more personal, and has a deeper emotional impact.

So if Bioware decided Miranda had decided to take over from TiM between ME2 and ME3 and she was the one out to kill Shepard who now threatens her organisation. Which concludes with you having to kill her at the end. You would be okay with that?

I'm totally okay with that. I actually hoped that Miranda would become TIM (well, TIW, in this case) and most likely turn against Shepard at some point, but we got Liara instead.

[upsettingshorts]

holdenagincourt wrote...

I assume he chose the Chantry for three reasons: one, the Chantry is the religious authority from which the power and privilege of the Templars derives, at the same time that it is the religious authority that demands the shackling of mages; two, the Gallows is much more heavily guarded, constantly on the lookout for subversive mages, physically and geographically isolated, and overall more difficult to infiltrate than the Chantry; and three, Kirkwall's templars and mages live in the same building, thus he would be making the mages, his cause celebre, collateral damage.

He picked the Chantry because Elthina was in it, and Elthina was preventing Meredith from already invoking the Rite to begin with.  Removal of that obstacle plus the heinousness of the act itself would obviously compel Meredith to the action Anders wanted.

Once the Rite of Annulment is invokved, the mages of Kirkwall will either fight successfully for their freedom or die as martyrs.  Either is preferable, in Anders' view, to the status quo.  It went according to plan.

[Fishy]

Not pointless Drama at all and this is why I love BioWare character. They`re not your puppet. All you`re asking for is called fanservice.

[Barbantious]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Barbantious wrote...

No, his act was STUPID. It made absolutely no sense. He just went "full retard". 

He did it so Meredith would invoke the Rite of Annulment, forcing the mages of Kirkwall to fight the templars and spark a rebellion.

Seems like his "full retard" move that "made no sense" played out exactly as he wanted it to. 

Ok lets think about this for a second, when you're coming up with a plan like that, there are two very important things that you don't know, you don't know how Meredith will react, and you don't know how the people will react, sure the writers forced Meredith to stupidly enact a right of annulment when the guy who did it was right there and basically plead guilty, but that only happened because Meredith was insane, which Anders did not know about. 

Basically it's like spending your entire life savings on lottery tickets, whether you win or not it was still a stupid decision, you just happened to get lucky. 

Anders was lucky in that Meredith decided to enact a right of annulment for absolutely no reason, but his plan was still incredibly stupid and lacking any real sense. 

But his plan makes about as much sense as any other terrorist's plot so i don't have a problem with 'that' what i do have a problem with is the response to his actions. Anders stupidly blows up the Chantry to make a point (he chose the wrong building but whatever), Meredith stupidly enacts a right of annulment saying the people "will demand blood" when no one knows exactly what happened, and the ones who do know what happened, know who did it and thus they would demand Anders' blood, and hawke stupidly doesn't point out the stupidity of Meredith's actions, and gets forced into making a decision to support one of the groups when s/he really has no reason to unless s/he is a mage. Just a whole lot of stupid. 

Modifié par Barbantious, 05 octobre 2012 - 05:09 .

[TEWR]

you don't know how Meredith will react

She had been sending out death squads to kill anyone who helped a Mage, even if they were feeding their starving relatives who were tortured by Meredith's Templars. These same death squads were killing friends and relatives of Mages.

She had sent a missive to the Divine saying the Circle needed to be Annulled, since Elthina refused to authorize such a thing.

Not so far a leap to assume she'll Annul the Circle if Anders kills every single priest in one fell swoop. She's killing innocents left and right.

Though I wish the decision hadn't been so black-and-white. Meredith was clearly in the wrong for calling the Annulment, even before the "reveal".

[Barbantious]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

you don't know how Meredith will react

She had been sending out death squads to kill anyone who helped a Mage, even if they were feeding their starving relatives who were tortured by Meredith's Templars. These same death squads were killing friends and relatives of Mages.

She had sent a missive to the Divine saying the Circle needed to be Annulled, since Elthina refused to authorize such a thing.

Not so far a leap to assume she'll Annul the Circle if Anders kills every single priest in one fell swoop. She's killing innocents left and right.

Though I wish the decision hadn't been so black-and-white. Meredith was clearly in the wrong for calling the Annulment, even before the "reveal".

Perhaps, but you don't 'know' that, and in any case it doesn't make any sense to blow up the Chantry, including Elthina, who just so happens to be one of the only level-headed people in the entire city, and who has made it a point to stay neutral on the matter, all the while being kind to both sides. He should have blown up either the circle, templar hall, or the viscount's office. All in all, a stupid plan that worked because the writers said so. But he's a terrorist so his reasoning doesn't really matter. 

[TEWR]

Her "neutrality" was allowing Meredith to continue her dictatorship and tyranny on the Mages and Templars.

All she had to do was tell Cullen that Meredith was relieved of her command and that afterwards the Templars must undergo some reforms to weed out those people with similar mindsets like Meredith, effective immediately. The Circles would remain intact, the Templars would begin to reform, and the Mages would be at peace.

That's what she should've done. Neutrality wasn't the answer. Her going Neutral President damned Kirkwall.

[Plaintiff]

[quote]ShadowLordXII wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins - Alistair

I get it and completely sympathize.  Loghain betrayed and left Cailan, the wardens and many of his countrymen to die at Ostagar.  Whether or not you agree with Loghain's actions, I at least understand why Alistair would be ticked when the Warden spares Loghain and makes him a warden.

"He deserves to die, he deserves justice!  AND YOU MADE HIM ONE OF US!?"

I love the line, but after that...I just...wow...Hardened Alistair leaves the wardens on the eve of the battle against the Archdemon.  Doesn't that make him just as bad as Loghain? Isn't that exactly what Loghain did? Leave his people and friends when they need him the most?  He doesn't even take part in the charge against the Archdemon despite the fact that he's still a Grey Warden.

He also takes a 180 in regards to his friendship with you and treats you coldly after everything you've been through together and everything you've done for him.  Aren't you the reason that Alistair became hardened and started standing up for himself?  That you've even come this far?  Alistair forgets all of that and goes against his character by leaving you because of Loghain.  Even hardened, Alistair usually had a clear head on his shoulders and was a generally good person...it just doesn't make sense for him to ditch you before the final battle because you didn't kill Loghain.  Couldn't we have had an option to persuade him to stay like Shepard had with Wrex in ME1?[/quote]
I'd ditch you too if I'd been travelling with you for a year, only for you to turn around and invite someone onto our team after he devoted considerable time and resources to trying to kill us.

I don't think there should be an option to ersuade Alistair to stay. Why should he stay? How is allowing Loghain to live any less of a betrayal than him ditching you? Why does Alistair act coldly? Because you're a jerk, that's why.

Dragon Age 2 - Anders

Do I even need to say anything?[/quote] 
I think you do, yes.


[quote]Blowing up a Chantry filled with thousands of innocent people just to make a point,[/quote]
There aren't thousands of people in Kirkwall, let alone the Chantry, and I wouldn't consider anyone who furthers oppression of a minority to be "innocent". 


[quote]knowing that it would lead to a war where even more innocent people woud die isn't noble...[/quote]
I disagree. It's very clear that the only way anything is going to get done in Thedas is through violence.


[quote]he was a terrorist.  I don't want another terrorist as my companion.[/quote] 
You say terrorist, I say freedom fighter.


[quote]He had his reasons, I know and they make sense on a certain level.[/quote]
On every level. 


[quote]But he went too far by murdering innocent people.[/quote] 
You keep mentioning these innocents. I must've missed the part of the game that showed any. 


[quote]Why didn't he blow up the Templar HQ with a smaller bomb?[/quote]
Because the point was too expose the hypocrisy and unnecessary cruelty of the Templar Order. Can't do that if they're dead.

Besides which, the Templars are just a symptom of the continental cancer that is the Chantry.

I don't see how this qualifies as "pointless drama". If you yourself admit that you understand the reasoning behind the actions of these characters, then what about it is pointless? These are difficult moral dilemmas, that are in many ways analagous to things going on in our own world. Why do you deem them unworthy of discussion or exploration?

I suspect you just want a game that has a "perfect" ending and doesn't challenge your morals or reasoning in any way.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 octobre 2012 - 07:08 .

[Barbantious]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Her "neutrality" was allowing Meredith to continue her dictatorship and tyranny on the Mages and Templars.

All she had to do was tell Cullen that Meredith was relieved of her command and that afterwards the Templars must undergo some reforms to weed out those people with similar mindsets like Meredith, effective immediately. The Circles would remain intact, the Templars would begin to reform, and the Mages would be at peace.

That's what she should've done. Neutrality wasn't the answer. Her going Neutral President damned Kirkwall.

I didn't say she was smart, but reasonable, and kind. Besides hawke she's the most respected and well loved person in Kirkwall, it makes no sense to kill her. 

[TCBC_Freak]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Her "neutrality" was allowing Meredith to continue her dictatorship and tyranny on the Mages and Templars.

All she had to do was tell Cullen that Meredith was relieved of her command and that afterwards the Templars must undergo some reforms to weed out those people with similar mindsets like Meredith, effective immediately. The Circles would remain intact, the Templars would begin to reform, and the Mages would be at peace.

That's what she should've done. Neutrality wasn't the answer. Her going Neutral President damned Kirkwall.

Or maybe if she had had more time, the things you just said would have happened in a few days, she could have been signing a letter declaring this that night but oh no, she and her letter were blown up. Not that it would have mattered, Mereidith was nuts with a magic sword, what could Cullen have done but die?

Also Maybe Mereidith would have done something really bad if Anders had waited just a few more days and then she'd have step in. She made it clear that she'd stay neutral as long as she could hopeing they'd work it out. Because, what if Meredith was right? What if Orisino was a blood mage and leading other down that path... OH WAIT... he was, Mereidith was right, she was just also crazy. Killing the grand cleric was stupid. And don't forget that her neutrality may have let Mereidith do some more harm, but it also allowed every mage another day to escape her.

The fact is that we are looking back with hindsight and still don't have all the facts about what might have happened. Anders acted on less information than even Hawke had at the time, after all he/she was able to have private conversations with all the major players, and Anders made the wrong call. Reasons (of which there are none that make it right and I'm still convinced it was more Justice's influence than anything) aside, it was stupid.

[Plaintiff]

Barbantious wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Her "neutrality" was allowing Meredith to continue her dictatorship and tyranny on the Mages and Templars.

All she had to do was tell Cullen that Meredith was relieved of her command and that afterwards the Templars must undergo some reforms to weed out those people with similar mindsets like Meredith, effective immediately. The Circles would remain intact, the Templars would begin to reform, and the Mages would be at peace.

That's what she should've done. Neutrality wasn't the answer. Her going Neutral President damned Kirkwall.

I didn't say she was smart, but reasonable, and kind. Besides hawke she's the most respected and well loved person in Kirkwall, it makes no sense to kill her. 

Being respected and well-loved doesn't make you a good person.

It is not "kind" to sit on your hands and ignore clear injustice when you have the power to change it.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 octobre 2012 - 07:10 .

[TCBC_Freak]

Plaintiff wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...

he was a terrorist.  I don't want another terrorist as my companion.

 
You say terrorist, I say freedom fighter.

But he went too far by murdering innocent people.

 
You keep mentioning these innocents. I must've missed the part of the game that showed any. 

I have to address this because it shows a lack of any understanding of the words on your part; freedom fighter and innocent being the most potent as they are the base of everything you are saying. The chantry is filled with children, some as young as 5-6. Do they deserve to die because they are orphans being raised by the church and they may never even become brothers or sisters?? Even if you call every priest and layperson who works for them a collaborator (which is small minded) these people are not, nor would anyone who was just there to pray at that time.

That is an innocent, a child with no parents, after the qun forces killed a lot of people also the number of children in the Chantry would swell I’m sure.

And as to a Freedom Fighter vs. terrorist, they are not the same thing from different views. A freedom fighter would rather fail in the cause then harm an innocent. A terrorist would rather kill an innocent to spread terror then succeed at the cause. Anders became a terrorist as soon as he killed innocents to force the Templar to go to war, thus killing more innocent mages who didn’t want to leave the Circle because as is stated, may of them like the idea of the Circle (even Bethany talks about it in a mostly positive way), it keeps them and other safe, just Meredith is a mad person. There was no proof that his plan would work in the short or long term but he did it anyway. He forced something many mages didn’t want and in the long term would only hurt them… that’s a terrorist, a freedom fighter is a way you can play Hawke if you want, who tries to solve it with peace and doesn’t fight till he/she has to and avoids killing innocents.

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 05 octobre 2012 - 07:19 .

[TCBC_Freak]

Plaintiff wrote...

Barbantious wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Her "neutrality" was allowing Meredith to continue her dictatorship and tyranny on the Mages and Templars.

All she had to do was tell Cullen that Meredith was relieved of her command and that afterwards the Templars must undergo some reforms to weed out those people with similar mindsets like Meredith, effective immediately. The Circles would remain intact, the Templars would begin to reform, and the Mages would be at peace.

That's what she should've done. Neutrality wasn't the answer. Her going Neutral President damned Kirkwall.

I didn't say she was smart, but reasonable, and kind. Besides hawke she's the most respected and well loved person in Kirkwall, it makes no sense to kill her. 

Being respected and well-loved doesn't make you a good person.

It is not "kind" to sit on your hands and ignore clear injustice when you have the power to change it.

That's one of the main issues, did she have the power to change anything? Orisino was a blood mage, Mereidith was mad. Did she have any real power at all? Maybe she knew she couldn't really do anything and so was hopeing that they'd work it out or someone who could fix it (like Hawke) would.

[Barbantious]

Plaintiff wrote...

Barbantious wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Her "neutrality" was allowing Meredith to continue her dictatorship and tyranny on the Mages and Templars.

All she had to do was tell Cullen that Meredith was relieved of her command and that afterwards the Templars must undergo some reforms to weed out those people with similar mindsets like Meredith, effective immediately. The Circles would remain intact, the Templars would begin to reform, and the Mages would be at peace.

That's what she should've done. Neutrality wasn't the answer. Her going Neutral President damned Kirkwall.

I didn't say she was smart, but reasonable, and kind. Besides hawke she's the most respected and well loved person in Kirkwall, it makes no sense to kill her. 

Being respected and well-loved doesn't make you a good person.

It is not "kind" to sit on your hands and ignore clear injustice when you have the power to change it.

Lol ok Anders, whatever you say. 

Modifié par Barbantious, 05 octobre 2012 - 07:29 .

[Plaintiff]

[quote]TCBC_Freak wrote...

I have to address this because it shows a lack of any understanding of the words on your part; freedom fighter and innocent being the most potent as they are the base of everything you are saying. The chantry is filled with children, some as young as 5-6.[/quote]
I didn't see any children in the Chantry at any point in the game. Several in the sewers, though. 


[quote]Do they deserve to die because they are orphans being raised by the church and they may never even become brothers or sisters?? Even if you call every priest and layperson who works for them a collaborator (which is small minded) these people are not, nor would anyone who was just there to pray at that time.[/quote]
At no point in the game is it mentioned that the Kirkwall Chantry doubles as an orphange. Even if there are sisters taking care of orphans somewhere in Kirkwall, and I doubt it, it's sure as hell not in the Chantry. I've seen every nook and cranny of that Chantry.


[quote]That is an innocent, a child with no parents, after the qun forces killed a lot of people also the number of children in the Chantry would swell I’m sure.[/quote]
The number "swelled" from zero to zero, apparently.


[quote]And as to a Freedom Fighter vs. terrorist, they are not the same thing from different views. A freedom fighter would rather fail in the cause then harm an innocent.[/quote]
Says who? The lives he could spare by toppling the oppressive regime would outweigh any innocent deaths. 


[quote]A terrorist would rather kill an innocent to spread terror then succeed at the cause.[/quote]
You would know, of course, having met so many terrorists.


[quote]Anders became a terrorist as soon as he killed innocents to force the Templar to go to war,[/quote]
Anders didn't "force" the templars to do anything. They are entirely responsible for their own decisions. 


[quote]thus killing more innocent mages who didn’t want to leave the Circle because as is stated, may of them like the idea of the Circle (even Bethany talks about it in a mostly positive way), it keeps them and other safe,[/quote]
Bethany is a twit, and so is any mage who thinks like her. There is no "safety' in a system where you can be legally mind-raped or outright executed for little to no reason at all. 

[quote]just Meredith is a mad person.[/quote]
Yeah. So why the hell does Elthina let her be in charge? Anyway who allows an obvious nutter-butter like Meredith to have any modicum of power deserves to be upskirted by a magical nuke.

[quote]There was no proof that his plan would work in the short or long term but he did it anyway.[/quote]
"Let's not fight against obvious oppression because we don't know if our plan will work" 

[quote]He forced something many mages didn’t want and in the long term would only hurt them…[/quote]
Obviously enough mages wanted it that they declared war of their nown volition.

[quote]that’s a terrorist, a freedom fighter is a way you can play Hawke if you want, who tries to solve it with peace and doesn’t fight till he/she has to and avoids killing innocents.
[/quote]
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you didn't invent the concept of a freedom fighter.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 octobre 2012 - 07:39 .

[TCBC_Freak]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]TCBC_Freak wrote...

I have to address this because it shows a lack of any understanding of the words on your part; freedom fighter and innocent being the most potent as they are the base of everything you are saying. The chantry is filled with children, some as young as 5-6.[/quote]
I didn't see any children in the Chantry at any point in the game. Several in the sewers, though. 

[quote]Do they deserve to die because they are orphans being raised by the church and they may never even become brothers or sisters?? Even if you call every priest and layperson who works for them a collaborator (which is small minded) these people are not, nor would anyone who was just there to pray at that time.[/quote]
At no point in the game is it mentioned that the Kirkwall Chantry doubles as an orphange. Even if there are sisters taking care of orphans somewhere in Kirkwall, and I doubt it, it's sure as hell not in the Chantry. I've seen every nook and cranny of that Chantry.

[quote]That is an innocent, a child with no parents, after the qun forces killed a lot of people also the number of children in the Chantry would swell I’m sure.[/quote]
The number "swelled" from zero to zero, apparently.

[quote]And as to a Freedom Fighter vs. terrorist, they are not the same thing from different views. A freedom fighter would rather fail in the cause then harm an innocent.[/quote]
Says who? The lives he could spare by toppling the oppressive regime would outweigh any innocent deaths. 

[quote]A terrorist would rather kill an innocent to spread terror then succeed at the cause.[/quote]
You would know, of course, having met so many terrorists.

[quote]Anders became a terrorist as soon as he killed innocents to force the Templar to go to war,[/quote]
Anders didn't "force" the templars to do anything. They are entirely responsible for their own decisions. 

[quote]thus killing more innocent mages who didn’t want to leave the Circle because as is stated, may of them like the idea of the Circle (even Bethany talks about it in a mostly positive way), it keeps them and other safe,[/quote]
Bethany is a twit, and so is any mage who thinks like her. There is no "safety' in a system where you can be legally mind-raped or outright executed for little to no reason at all. just Meredith is a mad person. There was no proof that his plan would work in the short or long term but he did it anyway. He forced something many mages didn’t want and in the long term would only hurt them… that’s a terrorist, a freedom fighter is a way you can play Hawke if you want, who tries to solve it with peace and doesn’t fight till he/she has to and avoids killing innocents.
[/quote]
[/quote]


Number one, my cousin was killed by a terrorist while on a mission trip in Iran so I think I have bit more knowledge than others about the subject. And I'm sorry, I didn't know you found a way into all those roped off area and stairwells in the Chantry? How cool, for you cause I missed that little bit of the game.

If you'd read more about the Chantry from the codex and if you paid attention in DA:O like Lotharing or Redcliff as two examples you know that one of the Chantry's may duties if housing and providing for orphans and displaced people. They can’t take care of everyone and that’s sad but you can’t just ignore the lore and then point to it as a reason for action.

I’m sorry if I’m a little passionate about this but it hits home because this is something I have personal experience with and it sickens me that we try and sweep away responsibility for peoples action in the real world and make them more powerful by legitimizing them and calling them Freedom Fighters. I don‘t want to see a game do it to, especially when the difference is so clear. The guy who killed my family member was not a freedom fighter, Nelson Mandela was a Freedom Fighter, he went to jail, Martin Luther King Jr. was a Freedom Fighter, not Osama Bin Laden. That man was a terrorist. How about we stop being so PC and just be honest?

[thebigbad1013]

Bastila was far from the "perfect" jedi and she showed hints of arrogance and overconfidence more than once if memory serves. Add torture into the mix and I find it absolutely believable that she could break under that and fall to the dark side.

Alistair didn't want to suddenly have to team up with the man who was responsible for the deaths of people he considered his family, not to mention the fact that Loghain had tried several times to kill Alistair and the Warden as well. Is it really that hard to believe that Alistair would rather walk away than work with Loghain? It certainly isn't to me.

And as for Anders, what he does makes perfect sense in terms of the way the character develops during Dragon Age 2. He gradually becomes darker and darker during the acts and througout act 3 it's blatantly obvious that he has reached the point of no return. Is he right or justified to do what he does? Hell no! But to say that it doesn't make sense just isn't true in my opinion.

[Felya87]

I think is not what Anders made that didn't make sense. Was how it was put.

ok, he is developing during all the game in depressed psicopath. I can understand this.

What I can't undestand are: why we help him with no problem? Why can't we undestand anything if he is our LI? Hell, he lives in the same house as Hawke! no ring bell about what he is doing?!

It could have been a good cause/conseguence part: he could make the bomb, than, if you have a hight point of influence on him, he could came to Hawke and ask help to stop his plain, but fail.
or, if you don't let him kill the mage girl in the second act, the girl could became his apprentice, and help him in the clinic and in the rebellion of the mage.

Anders made the bomb, but (thanks to Hawke) decide to not use it. The girl use it anyway. But Anders character would not be so forced.

the Chantry explode in any case, and the Templars would made Anders responsible in any way, and Sebastian would have his head anyway. But it all would let another taste in your mouth.

And let the player fell as if his choise had some importance at all.

[KiwiQuiche]

To be fair, Anders transformation was subtle but noticable if you spoke with him often. Going through the acts, it's obvious he was getting more and more ragefilled and paranoid. Not really surprised to be honest with the bomb. Knew he was gonna do something extreme.

EDIT: Anders's extreme act was as apparent as Zevran's offer of a massage as a come on. However many players missed both implications. How, I really don't know unless they paid no attention to anything they said or how they behaved.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 05 octobre 2012 - 10:04 .

[Felya87]

The strange thing is not Anders making the bomb...as player, it's quite easy to see his trasformation. Expecially if you have played Awakening. What I find absurd is Hawke not see it!!!

What the ...!!!! My Hawke sleeped with him for three years!!! and she didn't notice a thing? Really?
and even his mission to find the ingridients...subtle as Kronk who sing his own soundtrack. Pitiful.