36 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyWench]

BSN, I love you. <3
Sometimes you're weird (in the most awesome ways) and some days you're crabby, but overall, I really enjoy coming on here and having discussions with people who are as into the BioWare games as I am. It's pretty neato.

But I really am tired of seeing the word "fail" everywhere applied to both the Dragon Age and Mass Effect franchises. Now, don't get me wrong, there are things that I really adored about those games and some nitpicky things that I still don't like about them, but at the end of the day, I can only come to one conclusion: Even on their best day, no other gaming company holds a candle to BioWare in terms of games that make me feel involved, immersed, passionate and keep me coming back for more. Even when there is something I don't like, they are still the best at what they do in the genre they do it in. Isn't that why we're all here (uh, trolls excluded, I guess)? I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but I hope that maybe I'm not the only one who would like to stick to constructive conversations around here.

I just don't understand why so many threads have names like "Why BioWare failed" or "Here's what you can do to NOT fail at [insert game title abbreviation here] for [aforementioned game title abbreviation's sequel]." How did they outright get a straight up "F" in any way? Even if there was someone that ONE person individually didn't like or they can name ten friends who felt the same way, they're still selling, as well as non-game merchandise, and we're all here talking about it. If the last game pissed you off so bad and you swear up and down you won't invest any more money into the franchise, then what exactly do you hope to accomplish by signing on and just complaining without having anything constructive to add?

Because this is a (preemtive) DA3 forum, please, there are so many threads that are well thought-out and concise in providing community members with an opportunity to tell BioWare what they do and do not want to see happen in this game. Please add on to those in a constructive way. I have no idea why people feel compelled to clutter up the forum list with negative threads that the devs probably won't look at (because who wants to talk to someone who starts the conversation with "DO U KNO Y U SUCK!?").

If this gets me flamed, then, well, I guess I asked for it by putting myself out there. Anyway, I still love you, BSN. I'm sorry I was frustrated. Let's do lunch sometime. *steps off soapbox*

[Maclimes]

LadyWench wrote...
I have no idea why people feel compelled to clutter up the forum list with negative threads that the devs probably won't look at (because who wants to talk to someone who starts the conversation with "DO U KNO Y U SUCK!?").

This is apparently a difficult concept for many people to grasp.

[LadyWench]

Maclimes wrote...
This is apparently a difficult concept for many people to grasp.

Indeedy. Sad, innit?

[scootermcgaffin]

I gotta admit I get really annoyed with the constant jabs at DA2, and not just because I loved that game.

The constant "it wasn't exactly like DA:O in every way so clearly it was awful!" and "this one game I liked (unlike DA2 mirite lololol) did this really cool thing" is just old and doesn't help anything. Okay. You hated DA2. We all get it. You can stop now.

Modifié par scootermcgaffin, 04 octobre 2012 - 10:53 .

[LadyWench]

scootermcgaffin wrote...
 Okay. You hated DA2. We all get it. You can stop now.

LOL, true that. Also, I ADORE your sig quote.

[scootermcgaffin]

LadyWench wrote...

scootermcgaffin wrote...
 Okay. You hated DA2. We all get it. You can stop now.

LOL, true that. Also, I ADORE your sig quote.

Aw, thanks. Pratchett is my hero. (well, technically, Granny Weatherwax is my hero, but I figure my hero should probably be a real person...) 

[Monica83]

Well if the game was a success there is not the need of criticism thread around... I think Da2 deluded many player one is me for example is completely normal that thread continue to be so negative....

What i don't understeand is the need to open complain thread because people make complain threads

[LadyWench]

Monica83 wrote...

Well if the game was a success there is not the need of criticism thread around... I think Da2 deluded many player one is me for example is completely normal that thread continue to be so negative....

What i don't understeand is the need to open complain thread because people make complain threads

Not complaints. That's not the problem. People have those. Things they like, things they don't. But how can you say the game failed? Just because YOU personally didn't like it? Why don't you say WHY it "deluded" you, instead of just saying that it did and not adding anything helpful if you want to prevent that same thing from happening in the future?

Anyway, what I would like to do is encourage people who DO have specific complaints/concerns to add them to the threads that BW has already stickied and praised for giving them lists of things to consider. Why make a thread that only says "I thought it was awful!"?

But, like I said, I expected that this thread would risk being  unpopular with some people, and I accept that. That's the whole point of why I made it. I just don't know why we can't have a constructive, INFORMATIVE conversation, instead of talking in black-and-white, love-it-or-hate-it, no room for discussion. Why come to a BW forum if not to talk? As a cry for attention? As a place to vent? That's all well and good, but please stop saying the games failed when you not only paid for it and played it, but you're also all here on the game forum to talk about something (that you say you hate).

Did you really not enjoy ANYTHING about it? I hope that's not true, for your sake. But I respect your opinion. Unlike others I have encountered on the forums, at least you very nicely and respectfully stated why you disagree with my thread.

**Edited for typos and emphasis. It's been a long day, lol.

Modifié par LadyWench, 04 octobre 2012 - 11:50 .

[marshalleck]

Hey OP, are you complaining about complaining?

LadyWench wrote...

But, like I said, I expected that this thread would risk being  unpopular with some people, and I accept that. That's the whole point of why I made it.

So you admit to trolling as well, hmm 

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 octobre 2012 - 11:32 .

[scootermcgaffin]

 Not really. She's being pretty constructive, all things told. Offering suggestions and ways to make your (general you, not you specifically) complaints more likely to be heard instead of just ignored.
I'm complaining about complaining. 

[LadyWench]

marshalleck wrote...

Hey OP, are you complaining about complaining?

LadyWench wrote...

But, like I said, I expected that this thread would risk being  unpopular with some people, and I accept that. That's the whole point of why I made it.

So you admit to trolling as well, hmm 

Wow, I know the reputation you have around the forums, marshalleck. You have either completely misread that statement (intentionally or not), projected your own motives onto it, or perhaps I didn't word it clearly enough. Regardless, the point is to encourage constructive conversations and ways of getting your informationto the devs, even at the risk of drawing negative comments from people who disagree with me without having anything else helpful to add, and NOT to troll. But thanks for playing anyway.

Modifié par LadyWench, 04 octobre 2012 - 11:35 .

[marshalleck]

I have a reputation?

[LadyWench]

marshalleck wrote...

I have a reputation?

LOL! You didn't know? Um...nevermind, I guess?

[LadyWench]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

 Not really. She's being pretty constructive, all things told. Offering suggestions and ways to make your (general you, not you specifically) complaints more likely to be heard instead of just ignored.
I'm complaining about complaining. 

LOL! Oh, good. Just so we're all clear on what we're doing here.

"What would that accomplish?"
"Lots? Great civilizations are built on the sharing of ideas."
"Sharing? You mean stealing, of course. Followed by crushing those you stole from."
"You know that chip on your shoulder? I think it has replaced your head."

Modifié par LadyWench, 04 octobre 2012 - 11:44 .

[TheImmortalBeaver]

I definitely support this thread! I understand that people have issues with BioWare games, but why so many individual threads need to be made is beyond me, simply from the point of forum courtesy (we don't need 17 different active threads all going on about how much we hate DA2).

I think what flat-out bothers me, though, is when those negative people go into positive threads and start insulting everyone who actually liked that. I've seen enough times that I've come very close to swearing off the BSN entirely. It's threads like this, however, that keep me from leaving entirely. Thanks.

[Monica83]

LadyWench wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

Well if the game was a success there is not the need of criticism thread around... I think Da2 deluded many player one is me for example is completely normal that thread continue to be so negative....

What i don't understeand is the need to open complain thread because people make complain threads

Not complaints. That's not the problem. People have those. Things they like, things they don't. But how can you say the game failed? Just because YOU personally didn't like it? Why don't you say WHY it "deluded" you, instead of just saying that it did and not adding anything helpful if you want to prevent that same thing from happening in the future?

Anyway, what I would like to do is encourage people who DO have specific complaints/concerns to add them to the threads that BW has already stickied and praised for giving them lists of things to consider. Why make a thread that only says "I thought it was awful!"?

But, like I said, I expected that this thread would risk being  unpopular with some people, and I accept that. That's the whole point of why I made it. I just don't know why we can't have a constructive, INFORMATIVE conversation, instead of talking in black-and-white, love-it-or-hate-it, no room for discussion. Why come to a BW forum if not to talk? As a cry for attention? As a place to vent? That's all well and good, but please stop saying the games failed when you not only paid for it and played it, but you're also all here on the game forum to talk about something (that you say you hate).

Did you really not enjoy ANYTHING about it? I hope that's not true, for your sake. But I respect your opinion. Unlike others I have encountered on the forums, at least you very nicely and respectfully stated why you disagree with my thread.

**Edited for typos and emphasis. It's been a long day, lol.

Well i told it 200 times but basically is this:

A) switch an rpg franchise in an action rpg franchise in the sequel is always a bad idea... You have a fanbase that expect in a sequel to have the same things but improved.. Dragon age 2 changed so much that now is hard to believe is the sequel of dragon age origins..

b)Dumbing down... Remove race selection...Cut the abilty to customize your party included inventory managment...Redesign the classes in a manner that now can't be crossed and give them weapon style restriction dosn't give a feel of distinct but a static one..

B)move in a voiced protagonist and include paraphrases its ok for game like mass effect that are born in that way... BUt Paraphrasing add a lot of limitation on character psyche customization and force the player not to be the protagonist but to be a spectator... "Hawke many times tell things that i didin't want this wasn't in origins and for me this broken a lot the game"

C) Say goodbye to the tactical feel now you have ennemy that pops out from nowhere and teleport just close at you.. you don' have even the time to prepare a defence and even if you have not a tactic you can still win the fight with button masshing the ability key...Nightmare mode? indeed.... the only thing that change is the ennemy have a lot more of HP and make more pain but you are still unable to use tactic...

D) Art style.... Texture good overal texture but in wide areas with complete lack of details...You have a huge city that in the beginning the guard tell you "There is no more place..."... Then later when you access kirkwall is a huge city with no npc at all or very few that stands all the time in the same place and even don't react if you are in middle of combat... And... Kirkwall is supposed to be ruled by templar... But bloodmages seems to be an army and be also evrywhere... Ok right....

Also the changed style of the elves now "Pink navi withour tail" by the lores is supposed elves are atractive in the human wiew this ones looks like almost goblin....
Don' even mention the darkspawn that from scary creature now are clownish creature...


E) In all the whole game you are forced to be in the same areas and even if you travel in doungeon they are the same dungeon you visited but turned on another side.....

F) The story tends to skip in the time... the pity is the part you skip can be very interesting and also this broken my immersion..."like the first year of kirkwall of course you have no idea what hawke did to pay the dept that was an huge lack"

G) Quest suffer of a huge lack of variety most just follow this scheme Go there-Kill kill kill-then kill the bad guy-then return

H)And what about the cartoonish style of animations and overall graphic...I loved the dark gritty look that Dao had...

[scootermcgaffin]

B)move in a voiced protagonist and include paraphrases its ok for game like mass effect that are born in that way... BUt Paraphrasing add a lot of limitation on character psyche customization and force the player not to be the protagonist but to be a spectator... "Hawke many times tell things that i didin't want this wasn't in origins and for me this broken a lot the game"

It's not like the Warden was any better. If ~I~ really was the Warden, I would have done things a whole lot different, too.

[Monica83]

Ok but you had also more possibilty that have only a .... sarcastic... aggressive... diplomacy answer.....YOu can even if limited define what kind of character you want in DAO and i felt the warden with his limitation like to be a my character and not a someonelse one

[LadyWench]

Misterpinky0 wrote...

I definitely support this thread! I understand that people have issues with BioWare games, but why so many
individual threads need to be made is beyond me, simply from the point of forum courtesy (we don't need 17 different active threads all going on about how much we hate DA2).

I think what flat-out bothers me, though, is when those negative people go into positive threads and start insulting everyone who actually liked that. I've seen enough times that I've come very close to swearing off the BSN entirely. It's threads like this, however, that keep me from leaving entirely. Thanks.

I know how ya feel! Thanks! I'm here to spread the lurve. We can make this a happier, healthier BSN.

Monica83 wrote...

Ok but you had also more possibilty that have only a .... sarcastic... aggressive... diplomacy answer.....YOu can even if limited define what kind of character you want in DAO and i felt the warden with his limitation like to be a my character and not a someonelse one

And thats TOTALLY cool, it's your opinion, I see the pros and cons of everyone's arguements...and I see you put together a very specific, well-worded list!
I don't neccessarily think that this thread is aimed at YOU, personally (the fact that you are discussing this at length without being rude is proof of that), but there are others who only say a game sucks but won't describe why other than using sarcasm or, even worse, confusing levels of ragehate. Also, as wonderful a list as that is, it's all about location, location, location. Will anyone important (i.e. involved in game dev) see it here on my thread? Probably not. But if you could narrow down what you would like to see, they are very likely to see it and consider it here.

But anyway, I do hope DA3 has lots of elements that you will enjoy.

Modifié par LadyWench, 05 octobre 2012 - 12:55 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

LadyWench wrote...

BSN, I love you. <3
Sometimes you're weird (in the most awesome ways) and some days you're crabby, but overall, I really enjoy coming on here and having discussions with people who are as into the BioWare games as I am. It's pretty neato.

But I really am tired of seeing the word "fail" everywhere applied to both the Dragon Age and Mass Effect franchises. Now, don't get me wrong, there are things that I really adored about those games and some nitpicky things that I still don't like about them, but at the end of the day, I can only come to one conclusion: Even on their best day, no other gaming company holds a candle to BioWare in terms of games that make me feel involved, immersed, passionate and keep me coming back for more. Even when there is something I don't like, they are still the best at what they do in the genre they do it in. Isn't that why we're all here (uh, trolls excluded, I guess)? I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but I hope that maybe I'm not the only one who would like to stick to constructive conversations around here.

I just don't understand why so many threads have names like "Why BioWare failed" or "Here's what you can do to NOT fail at [insert game title abbreviation here] for [aforementioned game title abbreviation's sequel]." How did they outright get a straight up "F" in any way? Even if there was someone that ONE person individually didn't like or they can name ten friends who felt the same way, they're still selling, as well as non-game merchandise, and we're all here talking about it. If the last game pissed you off so bad and you swear up and down you won't invest any more money into the franchise, then what exactly do you hope to accomplish by signing on and just complaining without having anything constructive to add?

Because this is a (preemtive) DA3 forum, please, there are so many threads that are well thought-out and concise in providing community members with an opportunity to tell BioWare what they do and do not want to see happen in this game. Please add on to those in a constructive way. I have no idea why people feel compelled to clutter up the forum list with negative threads that the devs probably won't look at (because who wants to talk to someone who starts the conversation with "DO U KNO Y U SUCK!?").

If this gets me flamed, then, well, I guess I asked for it by putting myself out there. Anyway, I still love you, BSN. I'm sorry I was frustrated. Let's do lunch sometime. *steps off soapbox*

Do you wish to know why?

Times and times through discussions, gaming articles, professional reviews, BioWare was advised that players would like to affect the story in video games. Players want to see how the choices could shape the story in a story driven RPG. It is common knowledge in RPG. But did they ever listen? Nope. Instead they repeatedly ignored all those players choices in favor of their illusionary useless choices ( so they could tell their story instead of player's story ) through DA 2 and  ME 3. I seriously have no idea why on earth Casey never learn anything from DA 2's outbreak regarding choices that didn't matter,  when he presented the A, B and C choices to players in ME 3.

To make matter worse, they listen to a group of people who has no desire to play a role in story but rather wanting to watch action, romance, story developement and actors to play by itself, hence they couldn't see the importance of role shaping story in a RPG. So what else can you expect? A massive hug from everyone? Seriously if it wasn't due to my passion and love for Neverwinter Nights and Dragon Age Origins, I'd not be wasting my monthly  broadband quota on this forum. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 05 octobre 2012 - 02:03 .

[MillKill]

People have been saying all of these things ever since Throne of Bhaal came out. People making absurd requests and throwing temper tantrums on the internet are childish and immature, but ultimately harmless.

The reaction to Bioware games by their "fanbase":

Throne of Bhaal: The villain is obvious and poorly written! The combat is unbalanced! The next game is Bioware's last chance!

Neverwinter Nights: The story is terrible! I hate Aribeth! Why is the combat a hackfest! How dare Bioware rely on modders to fill their game with content! The game is dumbed down! The next game is Bioware's last chance!

KOTOR: Bastila is just Aribeth 2.0! The twist is stupid! All the skills are useless! The karma meter forces you to be a saint or a puppy-strangling maniac! Carth is annoying! The game is dumbed down for consoles! The next game is Bioware's last chance!

Jade Empire: You can't control the PC's appearence! it's short! The twist is stupid! The inventory is system is terrible! The game is dumbed down for consoles! Action game, not a true RPG! The next game is Bioware's last chance!

Mass Effect: The Mako sucks! The inventory sucks! The elevator's suck! MaleShepard's VA is terrible! The game is dumbed down for consoles! Action game, not a true RPG! The next game is Bioware's last chance!

DAO: The game is unbalanced! Oghren is shallow! It's buggy! I hate Alistair/Morrigan/Leliana! It's full of gays! Why isn't Dog a LI!? The graphics are terrible! The game is dumbed down for consoles! The next game is Bioware's last chance!

ME2: Fanservice outfits! The story is simple and pointless! The twist is stupid! It's all about characters, not about plot! The game is dumbed down for consoles! Action game, not a true RPG! The next game is Bioware's last chance!

Awakening: It's buggy! The story is terrible! I hate Velanna! It's short! It's unbalanced! The game is dumbed down for consoles! The next game is Bioware's last chance!

DA2: Voiced Protagonist! Your choices don't matter! Zevran/Alistair, what happened to you face!? The art style sucks! Silly animations! Hawke is reactive, not proactive! The game is dumbed down for consoles! Action game, not a true RPG! The next game is Bioware's last chance!

ME3: Endings! My House on Rannoch!!!!!! Buggy! Auto-Dialogue! My choices don't matter! The game is dumbed down for consoles! Action game, not a true RPG! The next game is Bioware's last chance! Later: The EC doesn't match the fanfiction I wrote!

I think we can probably take a stab at what the reception for DA3 will be on the BSN.

[PinkDiamondstl]

Maclimes wrote...

LadyWench wrote...
I have no idea why people feel compelled to clutter up the forum list with negative threads that the devs probably won't look at (because who wants to talk to someone who starts the conversation with "DO U KNO Y U SUCK!?").

This is apparently a difficult concept for many people to grasp.

So true so very sad and true.

[LadyWench]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Times and times through discussions, gaming articles, professional reviews, BioWare was advised that players would like to affect the story in video games. Players want to see how the choices could shape the story in a story driven RPG. It is common knowledge in RPG. But did they ever listen? Nope. Instead they repeatedly ignored all those players choices in favor of their illusionary useless choices ( so they could tell their story instead of player's story ) through DA 2 and  ME 3. I seriously have no idea why on earth Casey never learn anything from DA 2's outbreak regarding choices that didn't matter,  when he presented the A, B and C choices to players in ME 3.

To make matter worse, they listen to a group of people who has no desire to play a role in story but rather wanting to watch action, romance, story developement and actors to play by itself, hence they couldn't see the importance of role shaping story in a RPG. So what else can you expect? A massive hug from everyone? Seriously if it wasn't due to my passion and love for Neverwinter Nights and Dragon Age Origins, I'd not be wasting my monthly  broadband quota on this forum. 

But...but you are. Here, on the forums. And...this isn't a NWN or DA:O thread, soooo...If your complaints AREN'T coming from a place of love for the games, then why do you care enough to put any effort into complaining at all?

Now, that being said, I TOTALLY understand what you're saying. I, too, have expressed some disappointment on these forums about some of the professional and developmental choices BW and EA have made these past few years. But that does NOT explain why fans are just outright rude and sometimes downright vicious to one another on the forums. There are ways of handling disappointment with maturity and respect, and there are ways of stooping to the levels those same people claim they are being treated with by the devs

On a side note, NeverWinter Nights, while not my first VGRPG, was my first RPG love. So, props for that. I don't know if the days of that game style are over for good, but you can either complain or at least TRY to be constructive. Even if I think something I have to say (i.e. oooh, I don't know, this whole thread, maybe?) falls on deaf ears, I'd feel better personally knowing I tried and took the high road than just dove into troll territory out of frustration and sadness. Nobody wins there.

MillKill wrote...
People have been saying all of these
things ever since Throne of Bhaal came out. People making absurd
requests and throwing temper tantrums on the internet are childish and
immature, but ultimately harmless...

I think we can probably take a stab at what the reception for DA3 will be on the BSN.

Forgive me, I had been playing BW games for years before I created a forum account, and even then I spent most of it as a lurker until a lot of the changes in BW (and the gaming industry as a whole, really), as well as interest in modding some of my faves, made me take a more active role. I'm not saying that people are ruining the world with it, but so many people have made comments on other threads, as well as PMed me after I posted this, saying that anger and negativity on the forums have escalated to the point that it isn't afunplace to discuss the games anymore, and isn't that the point?

Also, if (since, again, this is a DA3 forum) the devs specifically asked the fans for useful feedback to shape the development of this next installment, what harm am I doing by trying to encourage people to do so in a more constructive and effiecient way? Just sayin'.
<3

[scootermcgaffin]

MillKill wrote...

People have been saying all of these things ever since Throne of Bhaal came out. People making absurd requests and throwing temper tantrums on the internet are childish and immature, but ultimately harmless.

Yep. And then with each new game, the formerly hated prior game becomes "one of Bioware's best ever why can't we just have more of that?"

Modifié par scootermcgaffin, 05 octobre 2012 - 03:23 .