I actually think one of the things that TW2 did really well was it didn't punish the player - but made them think long and hard about the pro's and con's of their choices.
Its one of the few games where metagaming has not affected my choices - and I have stuck with my first choice even though some of the outcomes seemed to go against what I was trying to achieve.
Don't be Afraid to punish us
Débuté par
Guest_FemaleMageFan_*
, oct. 04 2012 11:16
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#27
Guest_Corvus I_*
Posté 05 octobre 2012 - 02:33
Guest_Corvus I_*
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I think good games have come to a cross roads of needing to balance the old fashion bash and slash with social content. And I hope it will continue to grow. I would love to see a couple of side quests where the player must make social decisions that weight back on to the players stats. Maybe the opportunity to have an intimate relationship which goes terribly wrong or right plus later events where that relationship in recall effects the outcome of an event/quest.
I would also like to see a tool.
I would also like to see a tool.
#28
Posté 05 octobre 2012 - 02:34
SirPetrakus
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AlexJK wrote...
Morality decisions eg. Virmire, yes.
Pointless sacrifice that you are utterly impotent to do anything about or respond to in an appropriate way, eg. Hawke's mother, no.
A very good portrayal of that was in Alpha Protocol. In the museum in Rome mission, you had the choice to either save Madison or a good number of museum visitors. Oh, if only that game had a better budget ...
#29
Posté 05 octobre 2012 - 02:36
Icinix
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SirPetrakus wrote...
AlexJK wrote...
Morality decisions eg. Virmire, yes.
Pointless sacrifice that you are utterly impotent to do anything about or respond to in an appropriate way, eg. Hawke's mother, no.
A very good portrayal of that was in Alpha Protocol. In the museum in Rome mission, you had the choice to either save Madison or a good number of museum visitors. Oh, if only that game had a better budget ...
...even just a better voice actor. Seriously - no matter what you chose - he was such a ******.
#30
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 05 octobre 2012 - 02:42
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I thought that's what DA2 was made of? I'm all right with tough decisions as long as they have meaning and they are used sparingly. If every other decision is super tough for no other reason than to hurt the player, then it'll become very meaningless very quickly, the game by extension will become meaningless (as story and character integrity will suffer just to make the character suffer) and many people will stop caring about the game.
#31
Posté 05 octobre 2012 - 03:04
Maclimes
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Faerunner wrote...
I thought that's what DA2 was made of? I'm all right with tough decisions as long as they have meaning and they are used sparingly. If every other decision is super tough for no other reason than to hurt the player, then it'll become very meaningless very quickly, the game by extension will become meaningless (as story and character integrity will suffer just to make the character suffer) and many people will stop caring about the game.
The "tough" decisions in DA2, though, all had the same outcome.
No matter how you chose to pursue Leandra's kidnapper, or deal with the various elements surrounding it, it would always end the exact same way.
No matter how you chose to align yourself with Templar or Mage at the end, it would always end in almost the exact same way.
The only decision that you actually get to make is the choice of who goes into the Deep Roads, because that determines the fate of your surviving sibling: Death, Grey Warden, or Mage/Templar. HOWEVER, that decision is made less meaningful by the fact that you don't realize you're making that important of a decision. And you're not giving anything up to make the decision, either. You simply decide what to do.
#32
Posté 05 octobre 2012 - 03:33
Kail Ashton
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So, anyone else think this topic is just a thinly veiled BDSM topic?
#33
Posté 05 octobre 2012 - 04:22
Vandicus
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The point was most of the decisions in DA2 don't have a paragon out. Typical paragon-outs in Bioware games allow the player to get everyone out safely all the time under the right circumstances, assuming one plays a paragon/good aligned character.hhh89 wrote...
marshalleck wrote...
I can't say with certainty since it has been a very long time since I last played DA2, but I think I disagree. It was better than the Mass Effect series, though.Vandicus wrote...
marshalleck wrote...
Every decision must have the paragon-out. It's Bioware law.
DA2 says otherwise.
I don't think there's much difference in DA2 if you play a lawful person or a ruthless, or pragmatic person. At least not in the major plot's decision.
Plus, as far as I remember you're going to be screwed up no matter the decision you made in DA2.
#34
Posté 05 octobre 2012 - 04:27
Arppis
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marshalleck wrote...
Every decision must have the paragon-out. It's Bioware law.
Ofcourse. Because Paragon takes the effort to do it right.
#35
Posté 05 octobre 2012 - 04:34
DarkKnightHolmes
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Arppis wrote...
marshalleck wrote...
Every decision must have the paragon-out. It's Bioware law.
Ofcourse. Because Paragon takes the effort to do it right.
Renegade takes more "emotional" effort than paragon's "Lol, everyone lives" effort. Just saying.
Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 05 octobre 2012 - 04:34 .
#36
Posté 05 octobre 2012 - 04:37
Redcrosse Knight
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I would like to see "punishment" for "wrong" decisions.
One example: Taking sibling to Deep Roads in DA2 w/o Anders. They die.
Now, I would have liked a better outcome had they not gone to the Deep Roads, but understand that the decision was likely made to remove them from the story due to lack of resources to program interactions, etc. for only a small subset of players.
Example of "no punishment:" Rachni decision in Mass Effect. Live/Die, who cares, just some measly war asset difference.
One example: Taking sibling to Deep Roads in DA2 w/o Anders. They die.
Now, I would have liked a better outcome had they not gone to the Deep Roads, but understand that the decision was likely made to remove them from the story due to lack of resources to program interactions, etc. for only a small subset of players.
Example of "no punishment:" Rachni decision in Mass Effect. Live/Die, who cares, just some measly war asset difference.
#37
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 05 octobre 2012 - 04:43
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Maclimes wrote...
Faerunner wrote...
I thought that's what DA2 was made of? I'm all right with tough decisions as long as they have meaning and they are used sparingly. If every other decision is super tough for no other reason than to hurt the player, then it'll become very meaningless very quickly, the game by extension will become meaningless (as story and character integrity will suffer just to make the character suffer) and many people will stop caring about the game.
The "tough" decisions in DA2, though, all had the same outcome.
No matter how you chose to pursue Leandra's kidnapper, or deal with the various elements surrounding it, it would always end the exact same way.
No matter how you chose to align yourself with Templar or Mage at the end, it would always end in almost the exact same way.
The only decision that you actually get to make is the choice of who goes into the Deep Roads, because that determines the fate of your surviving sibling: Death, Grey Warden, or Mage/Templar. HOWEVER, that decision is made less meaningful by the fact that you don't realize you're making that important of a decision. And you're not giving anything up to make the decision, either. You simply decide what to do.
Isn't that what "tough" decisions that "punish" the player are? Railroading us into sucky, no-win situations that turn out terribly no matter what we decide to do? Whether because our choices do matter and we just pick one of two horrible outcomes that we feel responsible for (like whatever king we choose for Orzammar or whether or not to preserve the Anvil) or it's just going to turn out the same but we still feel responsible because we're the ones clicking the mouse/holding the controller anyway?
I personally think BioWare needs to lay off the "tough" decisions that "punish" the player. The impression I got is that over-use of that feature is part of why so many people are burned out from DA2 and ME3. Reward the audience occasionally and they'll actually care and want to keep playing the games, rather than feel like it'll be predictable waste of time because they know they're going to be railraoded into heartbreaking stiuations anyway.
#38
Posté 05 octobre 2012 - 04:49
Eveangaline
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I agree with this. I hated in da2 having the option to spare Bethany, that kind of goes against the entire point of the right of annulment, which is to kill every single mage in the tower. If you side with someone who has already called for the right of annulment, you should have to go through with it.
(I wouldn't have minded if you had the option to demand the option to spare Bethany as a pr-requisite for you joining them, and it was obviously a rule broken just to keep you on their side)
(I wouldn't have minded if you had the option to demand the option to spare Bethany as a pr-requisite for you joining them, and it was obviously a rule broken just to keep you on their side)
#39
Posté 05 octobre 2012 - 05:07
schalafi
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Arppis wrote...
marshalleck wrote...
Every decision must have the paragon-out. It's Bioware law.
Ofcourse. Because Paragon takes the effort to do it right.
I thought the ending I got in DA2 was fair. I and my party defeated Meridith, and the Templars, and no one died, we just all walked away. I didn't have the problem of being pro Templar, so that was satisfactory to me.
I think if I had sided with the Templars, it would have been much more frustrating.
#40
Posté 05 octobre 2012 - 07:37
Arppis
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DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
Arppis wrote...
marshalleck wrote...
Every decision must have the paragon-out. It's Bioware law.
Ofcourse. Because Paragon takes the effort to do it right.
Renegade takes more "emotional" effort than paragon's "Lol, everyone lives" effort. Just saying.
Not if you are a psychopath. But yeah, might do otherwise.
#41
Posté 06 octobre 2012 - 12:29
Celtic Latino
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FemaleMageFan wrote...
Hello guys,
This is a suggestion that i have concerning the next dragon age game. I want bioware to not be afraid of punishing us. Bioware should give us some heart wrenching tough decisions to put through and not just in terms of sacrifices but the effect should be something drastic. Do not get me wrong i am not saying that each and every mission should be something heavy i am simply recommending that we need a couple of missions that allow us to make tough decisions of the future. A good example of this is virmire(especially for players connected to both characters) That mission was done so well and it took me like 10 minutes to pick a decision which i had to weigh out. In other terms i really am looking foward to this game and wish you guys all the best.<3
I completely agree.
Even better would be for choices that seem 'good' to have ramifications in the long run. That includes romance (would make it all the sweeter), the choice between saving relatives/friends, yeah I'd like to see some tough stuff. Not too many choices since I'd want them to deeply affect the story and possibly carry over, but enough to feel the weight. Especially with a name like Inquisition, I think we're going to really be in for a long haul.
#42
Posté 06 octobre 2012 - 05:09
mousestalker
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This needs to be said, if only to settle my own mind.
The OP has a very valid point. But the title of this topic has inspired some very disturbing images in my fevered brain. I recently went to Dragon Con. Mr Priestley and Mr Gaider were there. I saw them there. Thanks to this topics title, I can not shake the image of Mr Gaider and Mr Priestley in black leather corsets wielding whips. What's even worse, Mr Priestley seems to be in red stilettos whilst Mr Gaider has opted for the more traditional black pumps.
So while the topic is an excellent one, the title is causing me great psychic distress and peril.
The OP has a very valid point. But the title of this topic has inspired some very disturbing images in my fevered brain. I recently went to Dragon Con. Mr Priestley and Mr Gaider were there. I saw them there. Thanks to this topics title, I can not shake the image of Mr Gaider and Mr Priestley in black leather corsets wielding whips. What's even worse, Mr Priestley seems to be in red stilettos whilst Mr Gaider has opted for the more traditional black pumps.
So while the topic is an excellent one, the title is causing me great psychic distress and peril.
Modifié par mousestalker, 07 octobre 2012 - 01:13 .
#43
Posté 06 octobre 2012 - 05:17
C9316
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And here I thought this was a BDSM appreciation thread...
#44
Posté 06 octobre 2012 - 05:20
Dominus
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Judas Priestly?Mr Priestly in Black Leather
Regarding the original point of the topic, yes - I hunger for a challenge that requires more than a keen combatative strategy. That was a key factor in my interest for BioWare games, so...
Bring it.
Modifié par DominusVita, 06 octobre 2012 - 05:23 .
#46
Posté 07 octobre 2012 - 11:59
ledod
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DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
*Gets out a whip*
If you say so.
teehee
#47
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 12:01
Maria Caliban
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How was Virmire a morality decision?AlexJK wrote...
Morality decisions eg. Virmire, yes.
You kill one human soldier you know or... you kill one human soldier you know.
