86 réponses à ce sujet

[Tyrax Lightning]

Oh, just thought of a Graphics Card question. With a Memory Interface/Bus Width of 256-bit, does this mean there would not be any difference of performance between a Memory Size of 512MB vs 1GB?

Modifié par Tyrax Lightning, 06 janvier 2010 - 05:58 .

[Valaskjalf]

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

Oh, just thought of a Graphics Card question. With a Memory Interface/Bus Width of 256-bit, does this mean there would not be any difference of performance between a Memory Size of 512MB vs 1GB?

bus width affects memory bandwidth. 128-bit bus is half as wide (thus half the bandwidth) as a 256-bit bus in an otherwise identical configuration. 

memory size affects how much stuff the video card can buffer (more/bigger textures basically)

[Gorath Alpha]

Once again, the way I understand the relationships, it is the speed that the RAM itself runs at, mostly, along with what the GPU core is running at, that determines how effectively a given video card can reach above double its memory system's bits-length / width. 

For fast functioning, the card can put 256 MBs each of at least two texture sets in the VRAM to swap in and out instantly.  Beyond that, in some situations, it can do more than just deal with two 256 MB blocks of textures in reserve.  In the future, a couple of years from now, we can anticipate that games will start including some realy huge-sized texture blocks that fast enough cards will start swapping 512 MBs in and out at a time. 

I doubt that todays 256 bit by One GB video cards will be able to perform that feat on a regular basis, and anticipate that the high end will move to 512 bit memory systems.  I've also mentioned on this forum, if not in this thread, that the next major graphical revolution is only a couple of years away (for AMD / ATI), when whatever the greatest GPU of the day happens to be, it will be sitting on the same die with four or eight CPU cores. 

Among the recent releases of Intel i5 processors, a new feature already exists, in which a separate pair of dies, one for a rather ordinary IGP, and the other for the i5 cores, are bundled into the same ASIC, and equipped with the current socket interface.  That already is a first.  It's not much of a video device, but simply by sitting next to the CPU that way, it will be much faster.

Gorath
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Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 06 janvier 2010 - 06:50 .

[Tyrax Lightning]

I've thought of a new issue for PC Gamers. Please consider advising people on the importance of having enough Case ventilation to safeguard the puder against doom at the hands of too much hot-air buildup from either the CPU or GPU. I'm seeing people complain about Graphics Cards melting down sometimes & wondering if they might be forgetting to watch their Case ventilation level to make sure the hot-air levels aren't getting strong. (Especially after upgrading their Graphics Card from something weak that may have not needed much ventilation.)

[Trajan60]

Thanks for telling me what I already know.

[Tyrax Lightning]

Trajan60 wrote...

Thanks for telling me what I already know.

With all due respect, this is for any who don't know. Those who do need not worry about this thread. No offense or irritation is intended.

[Gorath Alpha]

I did see a short guide to dealing with overheat situations, when it came up several times in the NWN2 forums, that I've copied and edited somewhat. But what I think is needed more, and I can't do it well enough to justify investing the time into it, is expanding Jiron's Troubleshooting FAQ, and getting rid of 75% of the current stickied posts in here. That is where the fixes for heat ought to go.  

My weakness with regard to the FAQs is my personal tendency to take one or the other of widely disparate approaches in writing. I would prefer brevity, and manage it sometimes, to the point of bluntness. When I do not make it short, though, the opposite often happens, and I become long-winded. Must have something to do with reaching the Senior Age category.

A couple of years ago, I copied the article below on PC cooling from the NWN2 forums on Bioware's old forum site, and with apologies to the now-forgotten author, here it is:

                                                   Keeping Cool

Although this subject is covered widely all around the internet's technical web sites, I (uncertain author's personal pronoun) didn't start this essay with any LINKS immediately available to suggest for references.  I've added a few, after the fact  (I hope I didn't pick one that violently disagrees with anything I've written). 

Problem: your CPU or GPU runs too hot, and the system either slows itself down radically, or shuts off for self-protection.  What to do? 

The game playing community uses some PC components that will run fairly hot, in its search for better game-playing performance.  These include Raptor high rpm Hard Drives, Overclocked dual cored and quad-cored CPUs, and really super-hot-running 3D GPUs. 

If a new gamer or new system re-builder is involved in a game PC project, his/ her experience with controlling overheating may be inadequate.  There are excellent aftermarket GPU coolers available from Arctic Cooling to replace the stock heat sink/ fan combos, and some very efficient CPU coolers for those old dinosaur Intel Prescott processors that run like miniature space heaters, but you do need to know that those aftermarket parts do exist.  It should be noted that with the 2012 release of AMD's combo CPU / GPU, two high-heat signature items are about to join, with the result a potential competitor for the old P4's high-heat crown. 

Current gaming cases feature twinned 120 mm fans to move a large air volume at a lower rpm, making less noise than smaller, faster spinning fans.  The intake is in the lower front, close to the Hard Drive bays, and the exhaust is upper rear, close to the CPU (at least, on an ATX style motherboard).  But even those won't work if dust buildup isn't controlled, if the assorted cables aren't neatly tucked away to allow free air flow, and if the case isn't allowed to sit where ordinary room air circulation can bring it cool fresh air, and allow the hot air it wants to get rid of, to move on out of the space behind the box. 

Stuffing a game PC into a narrow cabinet intended for a cool-running business PC from the last century is a quick way to kill the computer.  Crowding the back of the case too close to a wall is equally bad. 

Many branded PCs' cases have only a very small "lip" intake opening in front, at the very bottom of the bezel (front plastic cover), which is very easily blocked if the PC sits on the floor on carpeting, even low pile varieties, so it's necessary to raise it out of contact with the carpet, if only through cutting a piece of cardboard with a slightly larger size than the footprint of the machine. 

Various utilities will report temperatures and allow the gamer to keep track of his efforts to control what is happening.  These include AIDA32, ATI Tools, ATI Tray Tools, Riva Tuner, SiSoft Sandra, and Speedfan.    

For any reader wanting additional cooling information, I have now done my own Google in the subject area, and some quick scans of available material.  This article appears similar in scope to mine, although somewhat more detailed: 

http://www.compukiss.../article766.htm

Here's another: http://www.smartcomp...55r04/55r04.asp

http://www.pcnineone...o/cooling1.html

http://pcworld.about...p192id52328.htm

I hope all of the links are still good! 

(Thank you to my source, again. )

Gorath
-

G

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 21 janvier 2010 - 06:01 .

[Tosheroon]

Trajan60 wrote...

Thanks for telling me what I already know.

Did your e-peen grow by much, Trajan, after that totally unnecessary boast? 

Good post, Gorath, as not all gamers care about the actual inside workings of their PCs. I've always thought that a bit strange, though, considering the cost invested.

[Tyrax Lightning]

Many thanks for the new intel Gorath!  As part of my new puder build, i've been attempting to research & plan my new Case Fan setup for it. I'm no longer confident that my prior 2-Fan setup will ever be enough so I wanna power it up to fierce levels on the new build, but i'm having trouble finding intel on it on a thread for it. I would welcome back-up on this intel gathering. I don't wanna get my new puder done only to blow it up.

[Gorath Alpha]

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

Many thanks for the new intel Gorath!  As part of my new puder build, i've been attempting to research & plan my new Case Fan setup for it. I'm no longer confident that my prior 2-Fan setup will ever be enough so I wanna power it up to fierce levels on the new build, but i'm having trouble finding intel on it on a thread for it. I would welcome back-up on this intel gathering. I don't wanna get my new puder done only to blow it up.

For the most part, I tend to aim comments at the mid-level gamer, for whom twin 120 mm fans, one in front, and one in back, are sufficient.  Individually, you want to have used a powerful CPU cooler to handle apowerful CPU, and then you want to remove the heated air coming off of that CPU before it passes some heating to other parts, such as the RAM.  The same goes for selecting a video card.  A gamer should avoid a "passive" cooler, and if the GPU is a powerful one, look at those with a cooling shroud that expels the exhaust right out th eback via an adjacent bracket slot. 

However, my reason for only now returning to this thread is the screen resolution situation.  We seem to be overdue right now for the next technical breakthrough in displays.  CRTs were running hot, and had gotten far larger in relation to screen size than the LCD flat panels, however, they did offer some attractive high resolutions.

The rapid changeover from CRTs to LCDs over the past three or four years, and especially the wide screen type recently, has meant that the average available screen resolution has been 1280 by 1024 pixels, or the equivalent number of pixels in the wide screen ratio.  I think we will soon see improved flat panels at a somewhat more reasonable price point. 

There have been some borderline parts (such as the HD 4550 Radeon, and almost certainly the HD 55nn cards) able to satisfy some less discriminating game players at the default resolutions now available.  It is my thought that game developers are going to be looking at the same sorts of things. 

I am much more of a "pause-and-consider" game player, and prefer real RPGs over any "action"-oriented kinds, including Mass Effect 1 / 2.  However, it was ME-2 that I was thinking about when I decided to add this.  That game uses a video card feedback function as part of its environmental interaction system.  Various low end video cards that are never on my own ranking list (and I'm not adding newer ones to NTK's detailed rankings) fail to work with Mass Effect 2 because the game sets a time limit on the feedback, and ignores the slowest old junk. 

In order for a card such as a Geforce 9300 to work, the screen resolution has to be set to a coarse number, such as 1024 by 768.  A card like that can be used in Dragon Age, and may even work outside of combat, but 800 by 600 is literally its limit for a mob scene in combat, I think.  That's the default lowest setting in WindowsXP, and it's really bad. 

Intel is pushing its (poor) graphics solution these days, adding it to four and six cored processors, but it's still more or less the same Intel IGP, just in closer communication with the CPU, and not suitable for games, so at the same time the displays are about to get better (let's hope, at least), we are about to see even more people being duped by Intel's promises of Pie in the Sky with onboard video.  Until AMD has the real APUs to show off (a year from now), there will more and more frustrated Intel owners wailing, complaining, and gnashing their teeth about games like Dragon Age! 

Gorath
-

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 22 mars 2010 - 05:47 .

[joey_mork84]

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

I've thought of a new issue for PC Gamers. Please consider advising people on the importance of having enough Case ventilation to safeguard the puder against doom at the hands of too much hot-air buildup from either the CPU or GPU. I'm seeing people complain about Graphics Cards melting down sometimes & wondering if they might be forgetting to watch their Case ventilation level to make sure the hot-air levels aren't getting strong. (Especially after upgrading their Graphics Card from something weak that may have not needed much ventilation.)

This is actually some very good advice, and an added bit would be to advise everyone to invest in at least one can of Air Duster (usually for keyboards) and keep it close at hand. If you see lint or dust gathering in even one of your vents, its time to open it up and give the vents (and the vents ONLY) a good spray down, then wipe the dust off your desk with a damp cloth after it settles. (The reason I say "vents ONLY" is because using Air Duster or any other type of compressed air similar to it, can cause damage to your internal pc parts if used directly on them. And do remember to clean the vents from inside the case instead of the outside [common sense should answer that one]).

EDIT: I suppose you could go the cheap route and simply blow the dust off the old fashioned way, but then you run the chance of getting spit on all your pc's innards (as well as possibly hyperventilating yourself if you have a case with as many vents as mine ).

Modifié par joey_mork84, 21 mars 2010 - 11:58 .

[Gorath Alpha]

The following message was previously postedf in a thread about overheated video cards.  (AND also somewhat earlier, here in this same thread, sorry!) 

(It should be noted that with the 2011 release of AMD's combo CPU / GPU, two high-heat signature items are about to join, with the result a potential competitor for the old P4's high-heat crown.) 

P. S. I just abbreviated this (DUPE) while the AnandTech article about the nVIDIA Fermi GTX 470 / GTX 480 was still fresh in my mind.  The TDP is between 250 and 300 watts, and the 480 typically is running at 95 Celcius under load, so it would appear that Fermi is the new high-heat crown wearer, after all!

Gorath
-

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 27 mars 2010 - 07:33 .

[Tyrax Lightning]

Gorath Alpha wrote...

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

Many thanks for the new intel Gorath!  As part of my new puder build, i've been attempting to research & plan my new Case Fan setup for it. I'm no longer confident that my prior 2-Fan setup will ever be enough so I wanna power it up to fierce levels on the new build, but i'm having trouble finding intel on it on a thread for it. I would welcome back-up on this intel gathering. I don't wanna get my new puder done only to blow it up.

For the most part, I tend to aim comments at the mid-level gamer, for whom twin 120 mm fans, one in front, and one in back, are sufficient.  Individually, you want to have used a powerful CPU cooler to handle apowerful CPU, and then you want to remove the heated air coming off of that CPU before it passes some heating to other parts, such as the RAM.  The same goes for selecting a video card.  A gamer should avoid a "passive" cooler, and if the GPU is a powerful one, look at those with a cooling shroud that expels the exhaust right out th eback via an adjacent bracket slot. 

However, my reason for only now returning to this thread is the screen resolution situation.  We seem to be overdue right now for the next technical breakthrough in displays.  CRTs were running hot, and had gotten far larger in relation to screen size than the LCD flat panels, however, they did offer some attractive high resolutions.

The rapid changeover from CRTs to LCDs over the past three or four years, and especially the wide screen type recently, has meant that the average available screen resolution has been 1280 by 1024 pixels, or the equivalent number of pixels in the wide screen ratio.  I think we will soon see improved flat panels at a somewhat more reasonable price point. 

There have been some borderline parts (such as the HD 4550 Radeon, and almost certainly the HD 55nn cards) able to satisfy some less discriminating game players at the default resolutions now available.  It is my thought that game developers are going to be looking at the same sorts of things. 

I am much more of a "pause-and-consider" game player, and prefer real RPGs over any "action"-oriented kinds, including Mass Effect 1 / 2.  However, it was ME-2 that I was thinking about when I decided to add this.  That game uses a video card feedback function as part of its environmental interaction system.  Various low end video cards that are never on my own ranking list (and I'm not adding newer ones to NTK's detailed rankings) fail to work with Mass Effect 2 because the game sets a time limit on the feedback, and ignores the slowest old junk. 

In order for a card such as a Geforce 9300 to work, the screen resolution has to be set to a coarse number, such as 1024 by 768.  A card like that can be used in Dragon Age, and may even work outside of combat, but 800 by 600 is literally its limit for a mob scene in combat, I think.  That's the default lowest setting in WindowsXP, and it's really bad. 

Intel is pushing its (poor) graphics solution these days, adding it to four and six cored processors, but it's still more or less the same Intel IGP, just in closer communication with the CPU, and not suitable for games, so at the same time the displays are about to get better (let's hope, at least), we are about to see even more people being duped by Intel's promises of Pie in the sky with onboard video.  Until AMD has the real APUs to show off (a year from now), there will more and more frustrated Intel owners wailing, complaining, and gnasjing their teeth about games like Dragon Age!

Gorath
-

I gotta years old dino CRT atm, but one of my post puder build upgrades is gonna likely be a SAMSUNG TOC T260HD Rose Black 25.5" 5ms HDMI Widescreen HDTV Monitor 300 cd/m2 DC 10000:1(1000:1) Build in TV Tuner Dolby Digital Surround Sound with a max Res of 1920 x 1200! I foresighted this & made sure that I got a Graphics Card with a 256-bit Memory Interface. I don't think a 128-bit Memory Interface will be adequate for much longer since Resolution minimums are gonna rise. I can't help but to wonder if resolution/graphics card problems are already here. I still see people here on the Forums having Graphics trouble & it can still look like they might be running high resolution on 128-bit Memory Interface Graphics Cards & it can still look to me like the Memory Interface might be bottlenecking on it's load, but I can't be sure.

[adrichardson]

To be honest if you want to play games at 1920x1200, you're looking at a very high end graphics card. For DAO, a 4870/GTX260 would be ok. If you're looking at anything more demanding you're really talking GTX280/5850/GTX470 (unless you're happy to turn the detail down to compensate).



have you thought about dropping to 22"? I've a T220 - cracking monitor.

[Tyrax Lightning]

adrichardson wrote...

To be honest if you want to play games at 1920x1200, you're looking at a very high end graphics card. For DAO, a 4870/GTX260 would be ok. If you're looking at anything more demanding you're really talking GTX280/5850/GTX470 (unless you're happy to turn the detail down to compensate).

have you thought about dropping to 22"? I've a T220 - cracking monitor.

My Graphics Card in my new build is a SAPPHIRE 100258-1GHDMI Radeon HD 4850 1GB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card. It should handle at least near-max settings.

I got this Monitor partially because I hope to aim for a PS3 for next Christmas so I wanted a Monitor with 2 HDMI connectors so I can use the same Monitor for both instead of needing 2 seperate Monitors which is impractical for me since my room is very small. Can also get Digital TV on it as well, so it's like 3 Monitors in 1 actually!

Edit: I've looked up the 4870/GTX260 on NewEgg & they don't look that different in power compared to my 4850, but at the time I got my 4850 before it went outta stock for so long, it was $125 bucks flat & free shipping. The 4870/GTX260 cost $40-$50 bucks more, but don't really impress me with their specs by comparison. I'll stand by my choice.

Edit 2: My apologies, I meant to thank you for your advice sooner. Many thanks for your willingness to be of help. I was distracted during the original typing of this Post, hence why this is the 3rd time i've edited it now. (One of the edits being a minor tweak.)

Modifié par Tyrax Lightning, 23 mars 2010 - 02:34 .

[Gorath Alpha]

All things considered, the nVIDIA "Fermi" leaks have been minimal, and it's due in stores tomorrow (GTX 470, GTX 480). 

www.hexus.net/content/item.php

That's what the XFX brand's cards will look like, anyway. 

[Tyrax Lightning]

Gorath Alpha wrote...

All things considered, the nVIDIA "Fermi" leaks have been minimal, and it's due in stores tomorrow (GTX 470, GTX 480). 

www.hexus.net/content/item.php

That's what the XFX brand's cards will look like, anyway. 

I wonder how many people will be able to afford them? How many Radeon HD 5xxx Series have sold? I can't help but to think the 'Fermi' line will only be affordable to corporations & organizations personally. For those of us that aren't rich, I think the Radeon HD 4xxx Series is the best bet.

[Gorath Alpha]

The GTX 480 has an official MSRP of $500 ($499-something, but I'm rounding it), and right now, the HD 5n00 cards from the 5750 and upward are being sold at costs that are above the official ATI MSRP figures.  The newest GTXes might do something similar at first. 

nVIDIA is making claims that the 480 has an edge over the best single-GPU Radeon, which is still selling out almost as soon as they hit the stores, and has been selling at $515.   I think its MSRP is also supposed to be about $500, but it's a year sooner than I'll start looking at pricing for my own upgrades from that generation. 

The only HD 5970 (dual GPU card) that Price Grabber found was $900, now there's a beast of a card, and a beast of a price! 

For some reason, the actual release HOUR for the first two Fermis is 7:00 PM, and I don't know whether it's EST, ESDT, CST, CSDT, or what time zone. 

G

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 26 mars 2010 - 04:11 .

[Tyrax Lightning]

Ahh... If only more of us could afford $500+ buck Graphics Cards... I can't help but to wonder if they're gonna sell enough of them to make their profit?

[Gorath Alpha]

I wrote this in large part because of the frequency of forum messages asking for tech help while including only incomplete component reports that totally omitted the identification of the video component.  More of that sort of mistake has been happening recently, encouraging me to recycle the subject matter.  (That was five months ago, and it took me until now to spot the missing "F" and "I" I'd left out when spelling "identification.  Sorry about that, folks!)

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 12 octobre 2010 - 07:46 .

[Bfler]

I wouldn't create a Raid-System anymore. A SSD (with supported trim command) with Windows and the pagefile on it and a normal HDD for data storage is much better in case of gaming-performance and also a much better investment then an expensive Graphic Card..

Modifié par Bfler, 22 mai 2010 - 05:14 .

[Gorath Alpha]

Gorath Alpha wrote...

I wrote this in large part because of the frequency of forum messages asking for help while including only incomplete component reports that totally omitted the identification of the video component.  More of that sort of mistake has been happening recently, encouraging me to recycle the subject matter. 

Same thing again, a weekend later!  (Also still with a misspelled word until now -- same one -- the past five months.)

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 12 octobre 2010 - 07:48 .

[Tyrax Lightning]

I dunno if it'll help, but I still wonder if this Thread needs a Sticky. Maybe the Moderators share your frustration.

[Gorath Alpha]

Thanks, but the people who are repeating the mistakes are also the ones who won't read pinned threads for comprehension anyway.  In spite of the (IMO, "foolishness") involved in asking for HTML / XML codes, Victor's stickied message includes reference to video hardware already, and I have a thread I'd like stickied instead of his called the "Real Way to Report a Problem". 

This next is from one of the current would-be game players who doesn't pay attention to what's going on in here (or on the back of the game box): 

entz wrote...

Nvm i found out I dont got Nvida after all ,
wish the game supported more video

And this is the answer I added to the message thread that entz had started, about the error message that told him he didn't have any supported video card:

If it was a matter of catering to the majority, the games would not have advanced past the level of 4 color CGA graphics at 350 by 200 pixels (1981. and it could have been 320 by 200-something).  Throughout the 29 years that x86 personal computing has been standard, something on the order of 80 to 90% of the systems that have been in service were always below the level of what the game-oriented people have owned, and the developers have looked to for sales. 

When today's version of the laptop chassis became the standard for those, 98 to 99% of them have always fallen below the game-playable minimum.  There were millions of inexpensive desktops sold in the early 2000s that had similar basics to the laptops today.  A proper video bus cost too much at the time (AGP), so the cheap desktops left that completely off, and couldn't be upgraded to become game-capable, because the "plain" older PCI  bus simply runs too slowly for animations. 

Intel has never been a game platform concious company.  Five years ago, they proposed to make a change and planned a new video system based on something called Ray-Tracing that they projected for retail release in '09, hiring people from throughout the PC industry with graphics hardware experience, but similar to past efforts, they didn't hire the people with experience in writing video drivers.  By 2007, they had something together that they were demonstrating, but without input from the software end of things, it wasn't going to be competitive with what ATI and nVIDIA were offering. 

That project ended up being cancelled, every detail of it, and nothing of similar scale will replace it in the near future. 

Gorath
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Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 06 décembre 2010 - 01:50 .

[Tyrax Lightning]

If I can learn Padawan-level Computer Force Powers, anyone can. I'm no real life Wizard.



There's still some out there that haven't realized yet that you can't treat a PC as if it's a Console System.