17 réponses à ce sujet

[Gabey5]

 In Ferelden land owners made up the banorn who in turn support the crown. Power comes from below and each Bann/Arl/Teyrn has a certain number of troops. In Orlais it seems it is an abosulte monrachy meaning the Empress rules absoluetly, so my question is how do the nobles get their title since they can't own vast lands? Is it purely through wealth and how do they maintain their standing as nobility in society? How can orlesians put pressure on the crown at all?

In Ferelden the King was only as strong as how many Lords supported him, it seems in Orlais it is completely different.

[Dirgegun]

I don't know what medieval Frence politics were like, or whether Orlais is based on that, or more on the Medieval English system, but from what I can gather... titles probably come from wealth and service to the Empress.

As for how can Orlesians pressure the Crown, I would say it would have to be through a council of representatives perhaps? Or if it's truly a system where the Crown rules all, then revolt or protests might be the only solution.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Dirgegun wrote...

I don't know what medieval Frence politics were like, or whether Orlais is based on that, or more on the Medieval English system, but from what I can gather... titles probably come from wealth and service to the Empress.

As for how can Orlesians pressure the Crown, I would say it would have to be through a council of representatives perhaps? Or if it's truly a system where the Crown rules all, then revolt or protests might be the only solution.

If I'm recalling my history classes correctly (and someone please correct me if I'm not), French government was feudal until Louis XIV, building on the work of Louis XIII, Cardinal Richelieu, and Cardinal Mazarin.  He pushed for absolute monarchy and marginalized the power of the nobility.  That system lasted until the French Revolution hit.

The Fereldens in-game are quick to draw a distinction between their system of government and the Orlesian one.  Ferelden is a pretty good example of feudalism in action, though certainly more progressive than actual medieval feudalism.  So it stands to reason that the Orlesian government is much more centralized, a divine right of kings Louis XIV model.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 05 octobre 2012 - 07:29 .

[Dirgegun]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

I don't know what medieval Frence politics were like, or whether Orlais is based on that, or more on the Medieval English system, but from what I can gather... titles probably come from wealth and service to the Empress.

As for how can Orlesians pressure the Crown, I would say it would have to be through a council of representatives perhaps? Or if it's truly a system where the Crown rules all, then revolt or protests might be the only solution.

If I'm recalling my history classes correctly (and someone please correct me if I'm not), French government was feudal until Louis XIV, building on the work of Louis XIII, Cardinal Richelieu, and Cardinal Mazarin.  He pushed for absolute monarchy and marginalized the power of the nobility.  That system lasted until the French Revolution hit.

The Fereldens in-game are quick to draw a distinction between their system of government and the Orlesian one.  Ferelden is a pretty good example of feudalism in action, though certainly more progressive than actual medieval feudalism.  So it stands to reason that the Orlesian government is much more centralized, a divine right of kings Louis XIV model.

Ah, thank you! That's really interesting, and sounds about right for the DA canon. :3 

[Das Tentakel]

Dirgegun wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

I don't know what medieval Frence politics were like, or whether Orlais is based on that, or more on the Medieval English system, but from what I can gather... titles probably come from wealth and service to the Empress.

As for how can Orlesians pressure the Crown, I would say it would have to be through a council of representatives perhaps? Or if it's truly a system where the Crown rules all, then revolt or protests might be the only solution.

If I'm recalling my history classes correctly (and someone please correct me if I'm not), French government was feudal until Louis XIV, building on the work of Louis XIII, Cardinal Richelieu, and Cardinal Mazarin.  He pushed for absolute monarchy and marginalized the power of the nobility.  That system lasted until the French Revolution hit.

The Fereldens in-game are quick to draw a distinction between their system of government and the Orlesian one.  Ferelden is a pretty good example of feudalism in action, though certainly more progressive than actual medieval feudalism.  So it stands to reason that the Orlesian government is much more centralized, a divine right of kings Louis XIV model.

Ah, thank you! That's really interesting, and sounds about right for the DA canon. :3 

Not sure Ferelden’s society can be called ‘feudal’ as a historian would understand the term. There seems to be a basic patron/client system going on with the banns and the freeholders, and there’s an assembly of sorts. Not clear if there is actually a legal distinction between nobility and the rest of the population either.

‘Vaguely medieval’ is probably the best description.

Orlais is anybody’s guess. There’s absolutism, and then there’s absolutism. Same with political centralisation. Variation can be considerable, and there’s no idea knowing whether we’re dealing with an Orlais more similar to Louis XIV’s France or something along the lines of the era of Philip the Fair, ‘le Roi de fer’ (the Iron King) in the 14th century.



There’s also the question whether BioWare actually has a somewhat detailed picture of Orlais beyond a bare outline. Even if that’s the case, I suspect they will be ‘flexible’ with it.
We might end up with Ming China but with outrageous French accents, powdered wigs and croissants, who knows?

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 05 octobre 2012 - 10:49 .

[ElitePinecone]

Das Tentakel wrote...

We might end up with Ming China but with outrageous French accents, powdered wigs and croissants, who knows?

It seemed almost Byzantine as described in The Stolen Throne, complete with exile for enemies of the throne and whispers of unusually close relationships between relatives. 

I'm really interested in Orlais as well, it could end up being an amalgam of vaguely despotic monarchies throughout history. At the very least Ferelden has some sort of representation (in the Landsmeet, even if tites are hereditary), and we've seen that the ruler can't completely ignore their peers and the clergy to rule as a despot.

There's also the matter of the Orlesian Duke to consider; he may very well be proposing an entirely new political system (disaffected nobles?), or else it's another power play in a country riddled with personal politics and intrigue. 

[Das Tentakel]

ElitePinecone wrote...


It seemed almost Byzantine as described in The Stolen Throne, complete with exile for enemies of the throne and whispers of unusually close relationships between relatives. 

I'm really interested in Orlais as well, it could end up being an amalgam of vaguely despotic monarchies throughout history. At the very least Ferelden has some sort of representation (in the Landsmeet, even if tites are hereditary), and we've seen that the ruler can't completely ignore their peers and the clergy to rule as a despot.

You mean ‘Byzantine’ as in convoluted? It sounds like ‘ye aulde standarde court intrigue’ to me. Elite incest has been a popular motif since Hellenistic times.

I think ‘vaguely despotic’ sounds about right. Powerful rulers who disregard law and/or custom and/or prevailing morality and, for whatever reason, can get away with it.

Ferelden seemed pretty laid-back when it came to the gap between ‘nobility’ and commoners. But that sort of suits its role as the ‘America with swords’ fantasy baseline kingdom (‘the most normal place’).

[Sable Rhapsody]

Das Tentakel wrote...
Not sure Ferelden’s society can be called ‘feudal’ as a historian would understand the term. There seems to be a basic patron/client system going on with the banns and the freeholders, and there’s an assembly of sorts. Not clear if there is actually a legal distinction between nobility and the rest of the population either.

‘Vaguely medieval’ is probably the best description.

Orlais is anybody’s guess. There’s absolutism, and then there’s absolutism. Same with political centralisation. Variation can be considerable, and there’s no idea knowing whether we’re dealing with an Orlais more similar to Louis XIV’s France or something along the lines of the era of Philip the Fair, ‘le Roi de fer’ (the Iron King) in the 14th century.

I wasn't trying to offer any sort of historical definition, just a general sense of how Ferelden and Orlais stack up against their real-life inspirations.  

IMO the absolutism of Louis XIV maps pretty well to what we have in-game so far about Orlais, especially from Leliana.  An aristocracy concerned with the bard's game, fashion, conspicious consumption, and extravagance is one that'll spend less time conspiring against the Crown.  Philip's approach toward absolutism was more technocratic, and especially focused on wrestling power from the Papacy.  I don't think the Orlesians have tried that quite yet.

But it would be VERY interesting if they did 

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 05 octobre 2012 - 12:38 .

[Das Tentakel]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...
Not sure Ferelden’s society can be called ‘feudal’ as a historian would understand the term. There seems to be a basic patron/client system going on with the banns and the freeholders, and there’s an assembly of sorts. Not clear if there is actually a legal distinction between nobility and the rest of the population either.

‘Vaguely medieval’ is probably the best description.

Orlais is anybody’s guess. There’s absolutism, and then there’s absolutism. Same with political centralisation. Variation can be considerable, and there’s no idea knowing whether we’re dealing with an Orlais more similar to Louis XIV’s France or something along the lines of the era of Philip the Fair, ‘le Roi de fer’ (the Iron King) in the 14th century.

I wasn't trying to offer any sort of historical definition, just a general sense of how Ferelden and Orlais stack up against their real-life inspirations.  

IMO the absolutism of Louis XIV maps pretty well to what we have in-game so far about Orlais, especially from Leliana.  An aristocracy concerned with the bard's game, fashion, conspicious consumption, and extravagance is one that'll spend less time conspiring against the Crown.  Philip's approach toward absolutism was more technocratic, and especially focused on wrestling power from the Papacy.  I don't think the Orlesians have tried that quite yet.

But it would be VERY interesting if they did 

Yup. Would be nice if the political turmoil in Orlais leads to a reckoning with the Templars (and/or the Chantry), teehee :-)



Burn, Templar baby, burn....

As far as Orlais being similar to Louis Quatorze's France, the descriptions so far are sufficiently vague that it can go into any direction. Any 'historical' inspiration seems to exist only at the most general level. Beret, baguette, Eifel Tower, that sort of thing. Conspicuous consumption, intrigue, fashion - those things are not unique in any way to Louis XIV's France.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 05 octobre 2012 - 02:34 .

[ElitePinecone]

Das Tentakel wrote...

You mean ‘Byzantine’ as in convoluted? It sounds like ‘ye aulde standarde court intrigue’ to me. Elite incest has been a popular motif since Hellenistic times.

I think ‘vaguely despotic’ sounds about right. Powerful rulers who disregard law and/or custom and/or prevailing morality and, for whatever reason, can get away with it.

Ferelden seemed pretty laid-back when it came to the gap between ‘nobility’ and commoners. But that sort of suits its role as the ‘America with swords’ fantasy baseline kingdom (‘the most normal place’).

Byzantine as in full of intrigue, underhandedness and backstabbing - that word has too many definitions  

Ferelden always struck me as more "Canada with swords", really, given the decidedly non-medieval attitude of the vast majority of the population towards women in positions of power and same-sex relatonships. Those views are sort of implied by the socio-religious culture of Thedas and Andrastrianism (matriarchal and not caring much about sexuality) but behind the scenes are the entirely valid wishes of the developers to make a fantasy world that doesn't mean entrenched misogyny/repressed sexuality and isn't modelled on Tolkien's very British fiction. I mean, there are probably some fairly obvious other historical analogies (France, the actual Byzantines with their religious schism) but I like the way DA often subverts fantasy tropes in some places while keeping others very familiar. 

The politics of Ferelden do contain a chunk of egalitarianism, but there's no-one running around yelling about the rights of man or the pursuit of happiness - those power structures (racial, class-based, gender) are still deeply entrenched and I think it's really good storytelling ground. Even if the nobility aren't crazy feudal despots abusing villagers, I never got the sense that many humans (least of all the nobles) sought to radically change the system. 

[Wereparrot]

Gabey5 wrote...

 In Ferelden land owners made up the banorn who in turn support the crown. Power comes from below and each Bann/Arl/Teyrn has a certain number of troops. In Orlais it seems it is an abosulte monrachy meaning the Empress rules absoluetly, so my question is how do the nobles get their title since they can't own vast lands? Is it purely through wealth and how do they maintain their standing as nobility in society? How can orlesians put pressure on the crown at all?

In Ferelden the King was only as strong as how many Lords supported him, it seems in Orlais it is completely different.

The idea of the power coming from below contradicts Loghain's rise to a teyrnship. If the power comes from below, how can the king grant lands and titles, since he has no authority to grant them? And, this being the case, how are the nobility still obliged to provide levies and taxes?

In medieval society the king was supported by his nobles, but could count on his own larger personal wealth and armies if his nobles gave him grief. Few nobles were ever more powerful than the king. Power was centeralized, but delegated. Ferelden seems to be a disaster waiting to happen, if the power is not centeralized and the king has no lands of his own. He should consider himself lucky his nobles aren't as unruly as real-world medieval nobles could be. That and he has to make sure he doesn't upset them too much; he's probably enough as a pushover as it is. He also would have to watch his back; since he has no lands and therefore cannot raise his own levies he is vulnerable to traitors.

[waouh]

Orlais is fench (i now i'm french ) for the politic it's similare to "Sa majesté Royale LOUIS XVI) and for the fashion it's a mix of XVI and XVIII century, the big party with just a noble, castle similare to the french baroque...you see (sorry fory very bad english)0

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Gabey5 wrote...

 In Ferelden land owners made up the banorn who in turn support the crown. Power comes from below and each Bann/Arl/Teyrn has a certain number of troops. In Orlais it seems it is an abosulte monrachy meaning the Empress rules absoluetly, so my question is how do the nobles get their title since they can't own vast lands? Is it purely through wealth and how do they maintain their standing as nobility in society? How can orlesians put pressure on the crown at all?

In Ferelden the King was only as strong as how many Lords supported him, it seems in Orlais it is completely different.

My understanding is that the nobles still own vast lands, it's just that the emperor can take them away if said emperor gets ticked off. The viceroy of Ferelden that Maric kills to retake the throne was ordered to take Ferelden, and I think this involved either de facto or de juris dispossessing him of his other lands.

Also, I think the Orlesian nobles are richer than the Fereldens, partially due to there being no middle class whatsoever. (There are non-noble landholders in Ferelden, but not in Orlais.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 22 octobre 2012 - 11:04 .

[Maria Caliban]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

If I'm recalling my history classes correctly (and someone please correct me if I'm not), French government was feudal until Louis XIV, building on the work of Louis XIII, Cardinal Richelieu, and Cardinal Mazarin.  He pushed for absolute monarchy and marginalized the power of the nobility.  That system lasted until the French Revolution hit.

"I am the State." - Louis XIV

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Wereparrot wrote...

The idea of the power coming from below contradicts Loghain's rise to a teyrnship. If the power comes from below, how can the king grant lands and titles, since he has no authority to grant them? And, this being the case, how are the nobility still obliged to provide levies and taxes?

Bearing in mind that I haven't read the books, I think the family that was supposed to rule was all dead, and since Loghain saved the preferred king's life several times, the peasants would be unlikely to fight his appointment. This in addition to Maric apparently being incredibly charismatic. In short, I think the peasants and lesser nobles just gave Maric this one.

I also believe that the nobles provide levies and taxes due to the King having a national army even without lands, and the fact many nobles obey the crown out of a sense of duty. Finally, the fact that the king is picked by the Landsmeet to rule kind of means that they're likely to support him: they would be unlikely to pick him if they weren't okay with him.

Would this work in real life? I don't know. Does it work in Thedas? Debateably. Just being legally in charge doesn't mean that people automatically fall behind Loghain. (Though of course he hadn't been voted in, so that doesn't help.)

[vortex216]

ould be great if today's government were more like ferelden...

( is it just me, or is andraste a combo between jesus and joan of arc?)

[waouh]

En mode jeanne d'arc XD andraté is very similare to jeanne d'arc

[Shrinking Violet]

Ferelden always struck me as being similar (fantasy counterpart culture-wise) to pre-conquest Anglo-Saxon England. No feudal system or serfs; a land of thegns and free men who owed ancient tribal allegiance to their king. Even the Landsmeet looks similar to the Old English Witenagemot.

Of course Ferelden and Orlais are in no way England and France, but imo Ferelden = 10th century Ænglaland,

Modifié par Shrinking Violet, 23 octobre 2012 - 03:06 .