146 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaneke]

she lived on my playtrough. my warden was happy with her.
continuuity wise, nothing seemed wrong at the end of DA2.

seriously though, killing wynne and leliana?
i'm replaying 1 & 2 at the moment, and when i met kolgrim this time, i just called upon the elements to kill him and his useless lot of followers, then killed that dragon, and took a pinch of the ashes.

such evil play to kill your party just isn't for me.

...

ok. i did kill genitivi, but that was justified.

[Mr.House]

ejoslin wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

People keep bringing up the decapitated thing, you do know there is no flag that says you lopped off her head right?

Well, the flag is called "AUTOSS_LEL_FIGHTS_PLAYER_OVER_URN" and it's a trigger for the fight (obviously) but there is a flag that does indicate that Leliana was killed.  Yes, it's in the notes that the warden kills Leliana.  

It's really nothing I care about at this point.  It's a retcon, but the minute they said that the epilogues were just heresay and rumor, it took out a lot of the power of the story for me.  So there are retcons -- so what?  I still love the game, and hopefully I'll love DA3 as well.

All that means Leli was killed by the Warden. It does not say WARDEN_LOPPED_OFF_HER_HEAD.

Modifié par Mr.House, 06 octobre 2012 - 08:39 .

[ejoslin]

Mr.House wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

People keep bringing up the decapitated thing, you do know there is no flag that says you lopped off her head right?

Well, the flag is called "AUTOSS_LEL_FIGHTS_PLAYER_OVER_URN" and it's a trigger for the fight (obviously) but there is a flag that does indicate that Leliana was killed.  Yes, it's in the notes that the warden kills Leliana.  

It's really nothing I care about at this point.  It's a retcon, but the minute they said that the epilogues were just heresay and rumor, it took out a lot of the power of the story for me.  So there are retcons -- so what?  I still love the game, and hopefully I'll love DA3 as well.

All that means Leli was killed by the Warden. It does not say WARDEN_LOPPED_OFF_HER_HEAD.

Well, sure, but I'm not sure of your point -- flags just have to be descriptive enough so whoever is doing the data entry knows what flag to put in.  There's a flag set when she is killed by the warden.  Does it make a difference what the exact name of the flag is?  

[DarkKnightHolmes]

ejoslin wrote...

It also is implied, though not outright stated, that Leliana kills herself if her LI warden does the ultimate sacrifice. This is an ending that hit a lot of her fans very, very hard. Bringing her back takes away the power of that slide.

Only a non-hardened and romanced Lelaina does that and this is exactly the reason why I send Alistair to his death at the final battle.

[ejoslin]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It also is implied, though not outright stated, that Leliana kills herself if her LI warden does the ultimate sacrifice. This is an ending that hit a lot of her fans very, very hard. Bringing her back takes away the power of that slide.

Only a non-hardened and romanced Lelaina does that and this is exactly the reason why I send Alistair to his death at the final battle.

Sure, but my point really is that there are a couple of circumstances where Leliana dies in DAO, if you take the game as it is.  Bringing her back is a retcon for those people.

What would bother me if I were a Leliana fan is that for DAO, it doesn't seem to really matter how the warden interacted with her -- whether she was romanced, friended, hated, killed, never introduced, hardened, not hardened, mentor killed, mentor left alive, her path ends up the same.  I'm sure there will be some minor dialog differences, especially if she's a major character.  Hopefully those dialogs will reflect the warden's influence on her and that import bugs don't hurt that.

I'm actually glad that Zevran won't be back.  As cool as it would have been to see him leading the crows, his appearance in DA2 was bugged completely, and I'd be concerned about how they handle all that for DA3.

[unbentbuzzkill]

I personally hope she is in DA3 that way you might find out what her real agenda actually was or is.

[Rawgrim]

I hope she is in DA3 too. Deffinatly, since she is one of my favorite characters. BUT if I use the import save where I killed her in the first game, I don`t want to see her in that game.

[Lenimph]

BouncyFrag wrote...

I once heard that the little nug I gave her had curative powers in its tears. Not unicorn level, mind you, but good nonetheless.

Similiar to Pokemon the first movie? 

Anyway I don't have any doubts that Leliana will be an important figure in the next game.  Other wise the retcon would have been pointless. 

[LobselVith8]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It also is implied, though not outright stated, that Leliana kills herself if her LI warden does the ultimate sacrifice. This is an ending that hit a lot of her fans very, very hard. Bringing her back takes away the power of that slide.

It's actually amazing that these scenarios affected people so deeply that they're still arguing about this several years after the original game came out. 

that was in the epilogue
Bioware have dismissed the epilogues as rumours and hearsay 

That's Bioware's way of saying that those outcomes were rectonned.

In other words, our previous choices no longer matter going forward. Considering how many outcomes have been handwaved, it's more than a little absurd to simply dismiss the Epilogue slides as "rumors and heresay."

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Get Magna Carter wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It also is implied, though not outright stated, that Leliana kills herself if her LI warden does the ultimate sacrifice. This is an ending that hit a lot of her fans very, very hard. Bringing her back takes away the power of that slide.

It's actually amazing that these scenarios affected people so deeply that they're still arguing about this several years after the original game came out. 

that was in the epilogue
Bioware have dismissed the epilogues as rumours and hearsay 

That's Bioware's way of saying that those outcomes were rectonned.

In other words, our previous choices no longer matter going forward. Considering how many outcomes have been handwaved, it's more than a little absurd to simply dismiss the Epilogue slides as "rumors and heresay."

Except that the epilogues in some cases contradict known lore. Leliana is implied to commit suicide in one ending to rejoin US Warden, which doesn't make any sense since US warden's soul was destroyed. So they were pretty clearly rumor and heresay.

[Pedrak]

I think it was BioWare who started this 'save import' trend for RPGs no? Well, at least made it popular. Neither Fallout or Ultima did it IIRC. If they did, please correct my ****** statement into it's proper place within the Hall of RP Shame.

Yeah, IIRC the first was the Baldur's Gate series, which had an import save mechanic. More gear and character building than choices, but for Throne of Bhaal, for example, it imported your romance choice.

Although Drizzt showed up in BG2 even if you murdered him in BG1 - so maybe Leliana is just trying to follow the tradition...

Modifié par Pedrak, 07 octobre 2012 - 07:07 .

[Rawgrim]

Pedrak wrote...

I think it was BioWare who started this 'save import' trend for RPGs no? Well, at least made it popular. Neither Fallout or Ultima did it IIRC. If they did, please correct my ****** statement into it's proper place within the Hall of RP Shame.

Yeah, IIRC the first was the Baldur's Gate series, which had an import save mechanic. More gear and character building than choices, but for Throne of Bhaal, for example, it imported your romance choice.

Although Drizzt showed up in BG2 even if you murdered him in BG1 - so maybe Leliana is just trying to follow the tradition...

The BG games never let you import choices and decisions you made in-game. Only your level and stats got imported. The import feature was never a sales-pitch either.

As for Throne of Bhall, it gets copied directly into BG2. Just continues as an extra chapter or two. Thats why your love interest gets imported into the savegame.

[unbentbuzzkill]

maybe it's just me but the maker doesn't seem quite so holy to me maybe leliana is just a tool for the makers more sinister plans, or she's just the maker's new mistress.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Get Magna Carter wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It also is implied, though not outright stated, that Leliana kills herself if her LI warden does the ultimate sacrifice. This is an ending that hit a lot of her fans very, very hard. Bringing her back takes away the power of that slide.

It's actually amazing that these scenarios affected people so deeply that they're still arguing about this several years after the original game came out. 

that was in the epilogue
Bioware have dismissed the epilogues as rumours and hearsay 

That's Bioware's way of saying that those outcomes were rectonned.

In other words, our previous choices no longer matter going forward. Considering how many outcomes have been handwaved, it's more than a little absurd to simply dismiss the Epilogue slides as "rumors and heresay."

Except that the epilogues in some cases contradict known lore. Leliana is implied to commit suicide in one ending to rejoin US Warden, which doesn't make any sense since US warden's soul was destroyed. So they were pretty clearly rumor and heresay. 

They don't contradict lore; they contradict the later Dragon Age stories because the developers didn't plan ahead, as we see with the Dalish boon and the Magi boon and their consequences getting contradicted. Furthermore, it's never stated that Leliana was aware of the consequences of the destruction of the Archdemon by The Warden, as even the protagonist didn't know until Riordian revealed it.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Get Magna Carter wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It also is implied, though not outright stated, that Leliana kills herself if her LI warden does the ultimate sacrifice. This is an ending that hit a lot of her fans very, very hard. Bringing her back takes away the power of that slide.

It's actually amazing that these scenarios affected people so deeply that they're still arguing about this several years after the original game came out. 

that was in the epilogue
Bioware have dismissed the epilogues as rumours and hearsay 

That's Bioware's way of saying that those outcomes were rectonned.

In other words, our previous choices no longer matter going forward. Considering how many outcomes have been handwaved, it's more than a little absurd to simply dismiss the Epilogue slides as "rumors and heresay."

Except that the epilogues in some cases contradict known lore. Leliana is implied to commit suicide in one ending to rejoin US Warden, which doesn't make any sense since US warden's soul was destroyed. So they were pretty clearly rumor and heresay. 

They don't contradict lore; they contradict the later Dragon Age stories because the developers didn't plan ahead, as we see with the Dalish boon and the Magi boon and their consequences getting contradicted. Furthermore, it's never stated that Leliana was aware of the consequences of the destruction of the Archdemon by The Warden, as even the protagonist didn't know until Riordian revealed it.

Witch Hunt DLC mandates any Warden who played through it went to look for Morrigan. Many of the details in possible epilogues don't make a whole lot of sense unless you accept that the viewer somehow has limited omniscience(ability to know details that should not be known but at the same time limited in omniscience) or are rumors.

If the epilogues were told in true third person omniscient they would be more informative. 

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They don't contradict lore; they contradict the later Dragon Age stories because the developers didn't plan ahead, as we see with the Dalish boon and the Magi boon and their consequences getting contradicted. Furthermore, it's never stated that Leliana was aware of the consequences of the destruction of the Archdemon by The Warden, as even the protagonist didn't know until Riordian revealed it.

Witch Hunt DLC mandates any Warden who played through it went to look for Morrigan.

Which happens if the player purchased the DLC, which doesn't contradict the Epilogue slides. In fact, one of the slides mentions that The Warden searched for Morrigan.

Vandicus wrote...

Many of the details in possible epilogues don't make a whole lot of sense unless you accept that the viewer somehow has limited omniscience(ability to know details that should not be known but at the same time limited in omniscience) or are rumors.

The Epilogue slides are outcomes meant to be read by the player.

Vandicus wrote...

If the epilogues were told in true third person omniscient they would be more informative. 

They are informative; they were simply contradicted in rectons in later stories.

[Ianamus]

Leliana's death was just a retcon, and one that will be pretty hard to explain if they try to come up with a reason she survived. They could potentially go the "ashes of andraste healed her" route, and I don't really care about the decapitation thing because gameplay mechanics and story are two separate things.

Personally I hope she doesnt appear too much in Dragon Age 3. Not because I didn't like her, but because she was my wardens LI in origins, and I liked it when they had been spotted together but what happened next was vague.

[Medhia Nox]

While I think it would be better storytelling form to never even give you the option to kill these characters in the first place - retcon isn't the end of the world - it's just choosing one canon over another. They HAVE to do this with some things if the story is to progress.

That they let Anders do what he did - was fine - what I HATE about DA 2.... is that I'm given hundreds of story opportunities to stop him IF this were a roleplaying game.

Besides - destroying the ashes is for the Grimdarks - and I honestly don't care about their bitter tears. Retconning your story is so EVIL - and you're into EVIL aren't you? You should be applauding their retcon - Bioware is clearly favoring EVIL!

[PantheraOnca]

Is it so hard to believe that out of some sense of duty or compulsion the Guardian sacrificed itself to reanimate/heal the party member who actually revered Andraste?

Between all the lyrium, magic, potential holyocity, and dragonblood in the area, its pretty much a lore FFA as far as someone being or not being dead.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

While I think it would be better storytelling form to never even give you the option to kill these characters in the first place - retcon isn't the end of the world - it's just choosing one canon over another. They HAVE to do this with some things if the story is to progress.

That they let Anders do what he did - was fine - what I HATE about DA 2.... is that I'm given hundreds of story opportunities to stop him IF this were a roleplaying game.

Besides - destroying the ashes is for the Grimdarks - and I honestly don't care about their bitter tears. Retconning your story is so EVIL - and you're into EVIL aren't you? You should be applauding their retcon - Bioware is clearly favoring EVIL!

I think it would be better to go back to how it was handled in Origins, rather than restricting the protagonist (like we saw with Hawke).

[TEWR]

Well, let's assume that Bioware isn't denying that Leliana died. The thing that's really in question here then is "What reversed her death?".

Which we saw happen with Wynne, through different mean. The very nature of the Gauntlet actually can help explain why Leliana -- and Wynne, if she was killed there -- returned. I recall a codex in DAO stating that the soul of a person doesn't immediately leave the body at the point of death.

Perhaps the nature of the Gauntlet affects this more then is typical of the rest of Thedas. The Gauntlet is a place where Wynne will state that the entire area is infused with the Fade and we see the spirits of long dead people are still alive -- and more then likely, their bodies no longer existed due to being offered to the flames.

So given how Leliana's body was in a place where the Fade is practically infused with the mortal realm and how spirits can be summoned back to the mortal realm -- as Yavana demonstrates -- I'd say that the Gauntlet played a huge part in Leliana being alive no matter what.

Even the Ashes could've had a part in why she was brought her back, as there's nothing to really back up Kolgrim's beliefs that dropping a few bits of Dragon's blood into them will somehow nullify all of their powers. Really, all you have to go on are the ramblings of an insane cultist -- a man that worships an overgrown lizard.

[jackofalltrades456]

ejoslin wrote...

Sure, but my point really is that there are a couple of circumstances where Leliana dies in DAO, if you take the game as it is.  Bringing her back is a retcon for those people.

What would bother me if I were a Leliana fan is that for DAO, it doesn't seem to really matter how the warden interacted with her -- whether she was romanced, friended, hated, killed, never introduced, hardened, not hardened, mentor killed, mentor left alive, her path ends up the same.  I'm sure there will be some minor dialog differences, especially if she's a major character.  Hopefully those dialogs will reflect the warden's influence on her and that import bugs don't hurt that.

You know, I do find it pretty funny that Leliana was brought back as a fan service  since it would seem that everyone has been screwed it some way by her sudden return. As Ejoslin said, Leliana's path was railroaded into traveling with or being inspired by the Warden , returning to her homeland, then rejoining the Chantry and becoming the Divine's personal agent. 

1.She could've died three times in Orgins. (Betrayed by the Warden, killed by the Darkspawn in Lothering , killing herself after the Warden's death.) All of which got waved off and retconned.

2. Became the Warden's lover and remained with him/her after Origins. She now leaves the Warden no matter what and they've  disappeared (*cough* off screen kill off *cough*).

3. Hardened her. Returns to the Chantry anyway as an agent to the Divine.

So basically if you killed her or she died; she comes back anyway. You romanced her; she leaves you. Hardened her; she returns to the Chantry.

You could argue that they'll focus heavily on her choices in Dragon Age 3, but let's be real for a second. The explanation for her deaths is just going to be another "I got better", while her romance will be maybe mentioned once or twice.  Maybe get an off screen reunion if we're lucky. As for hardening her, I wouldn't even be suprised if Marjolaine was either killed off screen by Leliana  or just returned even if you killed her.

I love Leliana, but she transfered rather poorly into the sequels, wouldn't you say?

Modifié par jackofalltrades456, 08 octobre 2012 - 12:14 .

[septembervirgin]

 She's possessed.  When we first meet Leliana, it's clear that something is giving her visions.  I say it's a demon, possibly a demon siding with that demon called The Maker.