106 réponses à ce sujet

[Ninja Stan]

scyphozoa wrote...

MrCrabby wrote...
 I live in Canada and I know damn well that there are not a whole lot of places to go when one quits Bioware. That means leaving the games industry or moving to Toronto. 

Montreal is basically the mecca of the game design industry. I think there are more AAA studios in Montreal than any other city in the world. 

Also, Vancouver. And that's just the big studios and publishers. That doesn't include the smaller companies that can exist anywhere there's a few computers and a whole lot of ambition and eagerness and talent.

[Cultist]

Blue Gloves wrote...

Man, of all the silly... Don't you remember all the worry by big Valve fans in 2008 when a bunch of "top" devs from Valve left? (kelley Bailey, Kim Swift, Victor Antonov- off the top of my head) It was the same bloody thing. Fan outcry, polarized fan base...

The difference is that they left after successful projects. Valve had no three fiascos in a row.
And also - it's okay for people to change jobs. But when a lot of top devs leave withing several monts...

[Ninja Stan]

MrCrabby wrote...

Ninja Stan and whomever can stand there typing "all is well" until your fingers bleed. But your customers are not stupid and we can see the writing on the wall. But don't worry I don't fault you guys for stating things are dandy...what company would not?

It's kind of ironic. Wouldn't that be the other side typing "all is not well" until their fingers bleed? No, customers aren't stupid and yes, they can see the writing on the wall. The thing is, those same customers also don't know what working life is like inside a game studio and what writing they see is coloured by their own (generally) anti-corporate biases.

People change jobs for various reasons, and a minority of them are for bad reasons. Usually, people move on to bigger and better things, or thing they would like to do more of. New learning opportunities, better locations, change of pace--those are all better reasons to change jobs than "EVERYONE PANIC!"

Yes companies have turnover but not usually their key players. When all your creative people leave in a short time that is pretty bad.

Absolutely. So when all the creative people leave in a short time, that will be the time to get concerned. Freaking out over regular company turnover isn't that time. Really, the more emotionally invested you are in a company, the more names and faces you'll recognize. And the more names you recognize, the more names you follow. The more names you follow, the more you'll hear of them changing jobs.

I still keep my ear to the ground, and I have heard nothing, either directly or indirectly, that there is any kind of mass panic and mass exodus happening at BioWare.

Also, I live in Canada and I know damn well that there are not a whole lot of places to go when one quits Bioware. That means leaving the games industry or moving to Toronto. Quitting Bioware would not be a light decision.

See? You're putting BioWare on a pretty big pedestal, which means your expectations of what it would take to leave the company is coloured by a certain bias. BioWare is a great place to work, but ultimately it's still a company, and it operates just like any other company.

Do people want to see you disappear? Well, when you purposely create inferior sequels, break promises and stop making the genres you built your fanbase around how can you expect people to not want it?

That's a very short-sighted view of a company that people profess to be fans of and love. Why not look forward to the next project with cautious optimism? Or hopeful cynicism, whichever you prefer.

[Ninja Stan]

Cultist wrote...

Blue Gloves wrote...

Man, of all the silly... Don't you remember all the worry by big Valve fans in 2008 when a bunch of "top" devs from Valve left? (kelley Bailey, Kim Swift, Victor Antonov- off the top of my head) It was the same bloody thing. Fan outcry, polarized fan base...

The difference is that they left after successful projects. Valve had no three fiascos in a row.
And also - it's okay for people to change jobs. But when a lot of top devs leave withing several monts...

Please, list for me all the "top devs" that have left "within several months." Then list all their reasons for leaving. I'll bet that you won't be able to.

[Allan Schumacher]

Yes companies have turnover but not usually their key players. When all your creative people leave in a short time that is pretty bad. Also, I live in Canada and I know damn well that there are not a whole lot of places to go when one quits Bioware. That means leaving the games industry or moving to Toronto. Quitting Bioware would not be a light decision.

Or Montreal. Or Vancouver.

[Ghost Lightning]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Ghost Lightning wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

Or--get this--people join and leave companies all the time, in every industry, and for various reasons. You just never hear about most of them.

Most company departures have absolutely nothing to do with internet conspiracy theories designed to maintain and justify people's dislike of a company.

This is true, but the amount of "higher up" ppl leaving in such a short time period is at least a little bit questionable/curious.

The "higher-ups" are the ones most likely to be reported in the news as "notable." No one would really care if a dozen QA guys left the job or a handful of "no-name" artists got sacked. "Higher-ups" leaving a company is newsworthy, but it doesn't necessarily "mean something," least of all that something is wrong.

I hear ya. This actually makes sense. I just didn't stop to think about it XP

[bmwcrazy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Or Montreal. Or Vancouver.

Or you don't need to stay in Canada at all.

[axl99]

No one bats an eye when artists and programmers leave unless they're leads. But even then should that even be an issue? No one gives a crap except for the devs teams themselves. That's their problem to deal with, not ours. It's none of our damned business.

Also McCrabby, if you're a dev you'll know there's plenty more companies to go to in Canada than Bioware. But if you're not, I suggest you take those words back before someone makes you choke on them.

Modifié par axl99, 06 octobre 2012 - 11:22 .

[slimgrin]

Stan, let me get this straight: you left the company. The two guys that founded it left. The lead designer for their biggest project to date left. And the executive producer for the same multi-bazzillion dollar game left for Bethesda....this is normal layover?

Modifié par slimgrin, 06 octobre 2012 - 11:08 .

[Emzamination]

[Inappropriate off-topic post removed.]

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 07 octobre 2012 - 04:43 .

[Gatt9]

slimgrin wrote...

Stan, let me get this straight: you left the company. The two guys that founded it left. The lead designer for their biggest project to date left. And the executive producer for the same multi-bazzillion dollar game left for Bethesda....this is normal layover?

Christina Norman,  Brent Knowles,  IIRC there's been 1 or 2 others that left on the ME3 team...(A writer I think?)

[slimgrin]

Gatt9 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Stan, let me get this straight: you left the company. The two guys that founded it left. The lead designer for their biggest project to date left. And the executive producer for the same multi-bazzillion dollar game left for Bethesda....this is normal layover?

Christina Norman,  Brent Knowles,  IIRC there's been 1 or 2 others that left on the ME3 team...(A writer I think?)

Drew Karpyshin. One of the core creators of Mass Effect was sent to work on Tortanic. Brilliant idea. I think he's left too.

[Obeded the 2nd]

[Spam post removed.] 

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 07 octobre 2012 - 04:44 .

[MrCrabby]

Ninja Stan wrote...

MrCrabby wrote...

Ninja Stan and whomever can stand there typing "all is well" until your fingers bleed. But your customers are not stupid and we can see the writing on the wall. But don't worry I don't fault you guys for stating things are dandy...what company would not?

It's kind of ironic. Wouldn't that be the other side typing "all is not well" until their fingers bleed? No, customers aren't stupid and yes, they can see the writing on the wall. The thing is, those same customers also don't know what working life is like inside a game studio and what writing they see is coloured by their own (generally) anti-corporate biases.

People change jobs for various reasons, and a minority of them are for bad reasons. Usually, people move on to bigger and better things, or thing they would like to do more of. New learning opportunities, better locations, change of pace--those are all better reasons to change jobs than "EVERYONE PANIC!"

Yes companies have turnover but not usually their key players. When all your creative people leave in a short time that is pretty bad.

Absolutely. So when all the creative people leave in a short time, that will be the time to get concerned. Freaking out over regular company turnover isn't that time. Really, the more emotionally invested you are in a company, the more names and faces you'll recognize. And the more names you recognize, the more names you follow. The more names you follow, the more you'll hear of them changing jobs.

I still keep my ear to the ground, and I have heard nothing, either directly or indirectly, that there is any kind of mass panic and mass exodus happening at BioWare.

Also, I live in Canada and I know damn well that there are not a whole lot of places to go when one quits Bioware. That means leaving the games industry or moving to Toronto. Quitting Bioware would not be a light decision.

See? You're putting BioWare on a pretty big pedestal, which means your expectations of what it would take to leave the company is coloured by a certain bias. BioWare is a great place to work, but ultimately it's still a company, and it operates just like any other company.

Do people want to see you disappear? Well, when you purposely create inferior sequels, break promises and stop making the genres you built your fanbase around how can you expect people to not want it?

That's a very short-sighted view of a company that people profess to be fans of and love. Why not look forward to the next project with cautious optimism? Or hopeful cynicism, whichever you prefer.

I am aware of Vancouver and Montreal and my point is still valid...leaving Bioware is not something a guy does lightly. Either you find another line of work or you uproot your family to move.

The anti-corporate attitude you cite is actually and anti-Electronic Arts attitude. I don't know if you or the other guys in your ivory towers are aware of this but gamers, and I mean millions of gamers, are extremely hostile towards EA. As a brand and as a company. In being acquired by them you must have known that hostility would trickle down to Bioware, fair or not. Personally, and I know I am far from the only person who feels this way I am in an ackward situation. I refuse to buy EA products yet I find myself up to recently still wanting Biowares games.

So lets address cynicism...my and your many other customers cynicism is based on precedence. You purposely made a grossly inferior sequel (Dragon Age 2) in an attempt to cash in on the first game. You guys also changed many features despite most of the fans saying they hated them and did not want them. (Dialogue wheel, human only protagenist, retarded combat) and receycled dungeons relentlessly rather then spend another year making more envoronments. There is no way anyone who worked on that game could have looked at the end product and said "Yes, this is a worthy follow up the fans will love". And now Dragon Age 3 is in in development and despite claiming Bioware is listening to fans you are still using the wheel, still using twitch combat and not having origins and races. (Based on pervious posts by devs).

Mass Effect 3 ignored player choices, had a crap ending and almost no interactivity. Fans stated they wanted more story and did not want a shooter.

SWTOR was made despite the fans saying they wanted KotOR 3 and the fans did not support it.

In what capacity is Bioware listening to their fans? I'd say the cynicism is well founded. From what I can tell you guys don't care too much what your fans want because if you did you wouldn't be getting dumped on non-stop and your games would be doing a hell of a lot better.

Modifié par MrCrabby, 07 octobre 2012 - 02:37 .

[deuce985]

Meh. Sucks but what can you say. I'll probably finally get to try SWTOR when it's full F2P.

SWTOR might be a financial failure but I highly doubt Bioware has posted any other "failures" for EA. You'd have to think ME2, ME3, DAO, and DA2 are all considered successes for EA, financially. DA2 might be a bigger financial success than DAO because it sat in half the development time if not less. I doubt they have much doom and gloom going around the company right now. Perhaps the Austin studio, not the other studios in Edmonton/Montreal.

If you look at their career pages, they constantly keep putting new job offers up. They wouldn't be hiring if it was all doom and gloom. I'm curious to see what kind of budget DA3 is getting compared to DAO/DA2 but that won't be disclosed to us.

However, I do not find the news of the doctors leaving as positive. No matter how that is spinned, it can't be a positive. Very few studios recover when founders leave. At least to my personal knowledge...only studio that comes off the top of my head who survived - Naughty Dog. They're thriving too. Can't wait for Last of Us! Bioware can recover.

As for the EA hate in this thread, I do not like them either. Unfortunately, I obviously share weak willpower. Because I still end up buying games I love - which include Bioware games. Why should I punish a developer who does great work just because they sit under a bad corporate umbrella? If they're delivering me great experiences, I'm going to reward them for that.

With that being said, EA can learn a lot about giving us better user experiences. They can start by butchering whatever server architecture they use in ALL their games because it's god awful...

Modifié par deuce985, 07 octobre 2012 - 02:42 .

[deuce985]

Ninja Stan wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

MrCrabby wrote...
 I live in Canada and I know damn well that there are not a whole lot of places to go when one quits Bioware. That means leaving the games industry or moving to Toronto. 

Montreal is basically the mecca of the game design industry. I think there are more AAA studios in Montreal than any other city in the world. 

Also, Vancouver. And that's just the big studios and publishers. That doesn't include the smaller companies that can exist anywhere there's a few computers and a whole lot of ambition and eagerness and talent.

Isn't Bioware one of the top 100 employers in Canada? Thought I read that somewhere. Bioware must be pretty darn big these days.

[Ninja Stan]

slimgrin wrote...

Stan, let me get this straight: you left the company. The two guys that founded it left. The lead designer for their biggest project to date left. And the executive producer for the same multi-bazzillion dollar game left for Bethesda....this is normal layover?

Of course me leaving the company isn't "normal layover," any more than Ray and Greg leaving the company is "normal layover." But me leaving a company can never be considered "normal layover" unless I'm leaving the company every year. The same goes for Ray and Greg. That's just silly.

But what of it? I've already explained my reasoning earlier in this thread.

[Ninja Stan]

MrCrabby, please note that "BioWare is listening to fan feedback" does not necessarily translate to "BioWare is guaranteed to make a game that everyone will like."

It does not translate to "BioWare is obligated to agree with the feedback and implement it in the next game."

It does not translate to "BioWare will make a game MrCrabby likes."

What it does mean, is that BioWare takes into account all the feedback it receives--all of it, even the feedback that disagrees with you--and considers how it might work with the game they decide to make. DA3 is not built entirely on fan feedback, but the kinds of things fans have been clamouring for are likely to be considered by the dev team. If they like the ideas provided by the fans, if many different types of fans are looking for the same kind of thing, and if it can be incorporated into the plan, then they are likely to try to incorporate it.

I appreciate you are disappointed by BioWare games that did not give you what you specifically wanted from them, but your spite is largely misplaced. It appears you are unfamiliar with how games are planned, designed, and made.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

slimgrin wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Stan, let me get this straight: you left the company. The two guys that founded it left. The lead designer for their biggest project to date left. And the executive producer for the same multi-bazzillion dollar game left for Bethesda....this is normal layover?

Christina Norman,  Brent Knowles,  IIRC there's been 1 or 2 others that left on the ME3 team...(A writer I think?)

Drew Karpyshin. One of the core creators of Mass Effect was sent to work on Tortanic. Brilliant idea. I think he's left too.

Yeah, Drew left. Can't say I blame him.

[Seboist]

The absence of Drew(and Chris L'etoile) was certainly felt in the sequels.

[MrCrabby]

Ninja Stan wrote...

MrCrabby, please note that "BioWare is listening to fan feedback" does not necessarily translate to "BioWare is guaranteed to make a game that everyone will like."

It does not translate to "BioWare is obligated to agree with the feedback and implement it in the next game."

It does not translate to "BioWare will make a game MrCrabby likes."

What it does mean, is that BioWare takes into account all the feedback it receives--all of it, even the feedback that disagrees with you--and considers how it might work with the game they decide to make. DA3 is not built entirely on fan feedback, but the kinds of things fans have been clamouring for are likely to be considered by the dev team. If they like the ideas provided by the fans, if many different types of fans are looking for the same kind of thing, and if it can be incorporated into the plan, then they are likely to try to incorporate it.

You are absolutely correct, Bioware is not obligated to do anything. And the fans are also not obligated to support the compnay with their dollars either. And in at least two out of three of my examples that is exactly what happened and people lost their jobs.

I appreciate you are disappointed by BioWare games that did not give you what you specifically wanted from them, but your spite is largely misplaced. It appears you are unfamiliar with how games are planned, designed, and made.

I will respond in a couple of ways. First...I feel no spite towards you or anyone at Bioware. These are just games and not life or death. I assure you I have no ill feelings whatsoever towards you or your company. I do have a very sarcastic sense of humor but definately no spite. I don't expect people to make products just for me and if other people enjoy something that I personally do not than goody for them.

To the other part...I work as a film director and I have had my work crapped on many many times. It especially irks me when someone talks about the lighting or the photography of the film when it is obvious they know nothing about filmmaking.

HOWEVER

The thing is it is irrelivent if the person criticising me knows diddly squat about filmmaking as a process. It doesn't matter at all if they know how the difference between a dolly or a zoom. Or what a grip and gaffer does. All that matters is did they enjoy the product and did I deliever what I have advertised. If they didn't enjoy it than I don't get to g..."But, but let's see YOU make a film!". If they didn't like it than I made a lousy product. End of story.

Anyway no I feel no ill will whatsoever. I have talked one on one with Bioware guys before and I think you are perfectly good guys from what I have seen. 

Modifié par MrCrabby, 07 octobre 2012 - 03:51 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Stan's comment regarding how games are made is more in response to the idea of how much the fans are listening to fan feedback.

Stating that we aren't listening because we don't implement all the stuff that is given as feedback is something I wouldn't expect a film director to assert, actually.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 07 octobre 2012 - 06:44 .

[FutharkTomahawk]

Brockololly wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
That's right.  I had to track down where Georg went by myself (UbiSoft Singapore).

Damn, I didn't realize Georg had left BioWare. Well that stinks. He always had great posts back when Origins was in development.

Well, that's darn unfortunate.  When the folks who laid the foundation of a solid company move on, it's generally indicative of negative things rather than positive ones.  Employees vote with their feet.

[Veex]

I'm actually a little confused by many of the posters in this thread. Many of you profess to NOT be fans of BioWare's most recent titles. Wouldn't turnover in creative leads be a good thing in your collective case? Some of the individuals with some of the highest influence with games you didn't enjoy are now gone. Maybe some fresh leadership at BioWare will be a good thing?

[MrCrabby]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Stan's comment regarding how games are made is more in response to the idea of how much the fans are listening to fan feedback.

Stating that we aren't listening because we don't implement all the stuff that is given as feedback is something I wouldn't expect a film director to assert, actually.

If you think I don't take feedback into consideration when I start a new project than you are wrong. The second I sell a film or short is the second I turned it into a commercial product. If everyone who pays me tells me they don't like something than that means I either stop doing it or stop trying to make a living at it.