106 réponses à ce sujet

[Ninja Stan]

MrCrabby wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Stan's comment regarding how games are made is more in response to the idea of how much the fans are listening to fan feedback.

Stating that we aren't listening because we don't implement all the stuff that is given as feedback is something I wouldn't expect a film director to assert, actually.

If you think I don't take feedback into consideration when I start a new project than you are wrong. The second I sell a film or short is the second I turned it into a commercial product. If everyone who pays me tells me they don't like something than that means I either stop doing it or stop trying to make a living at it.

Ah, but are you ever obligated to implement every single idea or address every complaint in your next project, regardless of how appropriate it is? I would guess that such a concept would be even more difficult for your line of work, since you are likely not making sequels to your previous films.

This is the kind of "complaint" I am addressing here--the idea that a creator must cater to every demand/whim of or satisfy each and every member of a diverse audience. I am fully on the side of the creators on this, despite the "artistic integrity" punchline that gets thrown around.

[Mathias]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

So are you eager looking forward to us imploding so that BioWare as an entity no longer exists at all then?

I'm just not sure what you're getting at.

I'll put it this way. A lot of people don't expect the Bioware company to still be kicking within the next 2-3 years. EA has quite the track record of taking over and destroying companies. What exactly will make Bioware the exception to that rule? The writing is on the wall, especially this past year and a half.

Bioware obviously took a big hit from Mass Effect 3, and Dragon Age 2 disappointed a lot of people, but we all know what's killing the company, and it's name is The Old Republic. Half a billion dollars spent on that game and it goes free to play in less than a year. And even then the game is still losing subscribers. There's no way that didn't mortally wound the company. And now key developers and founders are leaving.

Do i want Bioware to tank? Hell friggin no. I want nothing more than you guys to be restored to your glory days. Mass Effect 1 is my all time favorite game, Kotor 1 was excellent, and Dragon Age Origins was a work of art imo. But let's be honest, those days are gone and not coming back. 
 

[addiction21]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

I'll put it this way. A lot of people don't expect the Bioware company to still be kicking within the next 2-3 years.  

And it tends to be the same people that have been saying that for 3+ years. I could tell you the world will end everyday. Eventaualy I will be right. The does not mean I had some insight or knew what the **** I was talking about.

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

What exactly will make Bioware the exception to that rule? The writing is on the wall, especially this past year and a half.

 

What writing? Even tho there were these terrible failures petulant children on the internet have been throwing tantrums over they are still going ahead with DA3, the same rumors of another Mass Effect game like there were after DA3 and the C&C game?

Ya that sounds like a brand that has been failing... /sarcasim

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Bioware obviously took a big hit from Mass Effect 3, and Dragon Age 2 disappointed a lot of people, but we all know what's killing the company, and it's name is The Old Republic. Half a billion dollars spent on that game and it goes free to play in less than a year. And even then the game is still losing subscribers. There's no way that didn't mortally wound the company. And now key developers and founders are leaving. 

 

Do you have ANYTHING at all to back these claims up? Other then you were unhappy so the only people that exsist are those that were unhappy and anyone else is some figment?

Half a Billion dollars? Again show us some numbers. I have seen claims from a hundred million to 750 million for that game. Show us fact not bull****.

"Mortally wound" Do you melodrama much?

I doubt you or most the others actually knew who these "key developers" were before they left.

And it is sad to see the doctors leave but lets work on your logic. All the bad **** that has happened to BioWare happened under their watch. They had the reins. So do not try to martry them like these boards have done to Brent knowles.

[Allan Schumacher]

MrCrabby wrote...

If you think I don't take feedback into consideration when I start a new project than you are wrong. The second I sell a film or short is the second I turned it into a commercial product. If everyone who pays me tells me they don't like something than that means I either stop doing it or stop trying to make a living at it.

If you're thinking we don't take feedback into consideration, you're also wrong.

Everyone that pays us is not telling us that they don't like something.

[Allan Schumacher]

Bioware obviously took a big hit from Mass Effect 3

What do you mean? Are you referring to the game being unsuccessful? Do you think that bridges have been burned? I don't feel I know what long term effects ME3's controversy will have going forward and will pretty much need to see how future projects are resolved.

Though you say it's obvious, so I'm curious in what way you feel there was a big hit taken. The only obvious ones I can see are PR hits (which aren't good, but tough to quantify until you have another product out).

[MrCrabby]

Ninja Stan wrote...

MrCrabby wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Stan's comment regarding how games are made is more in response to the idea of how much the fans are listening to fan feedback.

Stating that we aren't listening because we don't implement all the stuff that is given as feedback is something I wouldn't expect a film director to assert, actually.

If you think I don't take feedback into consideration when I start a new project than you are wrong. The second I sell a film or short is the second I turned it into a commercial product. If everyone who pays me tells me they don't like something than that means I either stop doing it or stop trying to make a living at it.

Ah, but are you ever obligated to implement every single idea or address every complaint in your next project, regardless of how appropriate it is? I would guess that such a concept would be even more difficult for your line of work, since you are likely not making sequels to your previous films.

This is the kind of "complaint" I am addressing here--the idea that a creator must cater to every demand/whim of or satisfy each and every member of a diverse audience. I am fully on the side of the creators on this, despite the "artistic integrity" punchline that gets thrown around.

No I am not obligated, nor did I say Bioware was. What I said was Bioware is not obligated to do anything and no one is obligated to give them their money. We ignore out customers at our peril and I guess some people need to go out of business before they learn that fact.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

especially Jaheria

Jaheira's portrait was immeasurably improved for BG2. We can't be friends.

Heh. I almost threw down fisticuffs earlier with Foolsfolly because I thought he was insulting Pixar (he was actually complimenting). It seems I'm just burning all kinds of bridges today!

I don't even remember Jaheira's BG2 portrait, so little have I ever used her (who ever thought Fighter/Druid was a good idea?).

[MrCrabby]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

MrCrabby wrote...

If you think I don't take feedback into consideration when I start a new project than you are wrong. The second I sell a film or short is the second I turned it into a commercial product. If everyone who pays me tells me they don't like something than that means I either stop doing it or stop trying to make a living at it.

If you're thinking we don't take feedback into consideration, you're also wrong.

Everyone that pays us is not telling us that they don't like something.

I guess the proof is going to be in the pudding. Maybe Dragon Age 3 will knock our socks off, maybe it will be more of the same. We'll see.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

Did EA demand multiplayer be in Mass Effect 3? Was it a requirement of theirs?

[Ninja Stan]

MrCrabby wrote...

No I am not obligated, nor did I say Bioware was. What I said was Bioware is not obligated to do anything and no one is obligated to give them their money. We ignore out customers at our peril and I guess some people need to go out of business before they learn that fact.

Sure, that's fair. It's relly easy to say, but when you have a gaming audience as large and diverse as the "gaming public," you are always going to be "ignoring your customers" no matter what you do, just as you are always going to be "catering to your customers" no matter what you do.

The internet opinion of EA/BioWare kind of bears this out. One section of gamers feels BioWare has "sold out" by "catering to the mainstream CoD crowd" and "only caring about money." Another section of gamers feels BioWare is "driving all its customers away" by "not listening to the fans." Yet another section feels that BioWare has never been better. And each section believes that they are "the customer" and "the majority" at the expense of the other two.

I think BioWare tends to do okay in the "listening to fans" part, even if they don't always acknowledge it or report any of their conclusions based on fan feedback. And to bring this back on topic, I think that things are still okay at the BioWare Edmonton office.

[Cultist]

Ninja Stan wrote...
Sure, that's fair. It's relly easy to say, but when you have a gaming audience as large and diverse as the "gaming public," you are always going to be "ignoring your customers" no matter what you do, just as you are always going to be "catering to your customers" no matter what you do.

The internet opinion of EA/BioWare kind of bears this out. One section of gamers feels BioWare has "sold out" by "catering to the mainstream CoD crowd" and "only caring about money." Another section of gamers feels BioWare is "driving all its customers away" by "not listening to the fans." Yet another section feels that BioWare has never been better. And each section believes that they are "the customer" and "the majority" at the expense of the other two.

I think BioWare tends to do okay in the "listening to fans" part, even if they don't always acknowledge it or report any of their conclusions based on fan feedback. And to bring this back on topic, I think that things are still okay at the BioWare Edmonton office.

DA2 proved that those who think that "BioWare has never been better" is significantly fewer in numbers than another part, who think that BioWare is "catering to the mainstream CoD crowd"and "driving all its customers away". Otherwise DA2 would sell far better than DA:O.
It's obviousthat some part of fanbase will be inevitably alienated. What is unusual is that how hard BioWare tries to appease the smaller part and drive majority even further away.

[Massa FX]

Who are game developers making their games for?

Sure they cannot tailor a game for every individual consumer, but making product that people have such a huge negative response to isn't what any sane developer wants.

Broadway actors love their feedback. They have previews and work out the kinks based on audience reaction and feedback. The crew wants their show to succeed and actively work to fill those theatre seats with happy audience members.

It would be a boon if game developers could make changes based on player feedback and continue to tweak until its right. Cost prohibits this, but when you know you've blown it... don't defend it. Don't ignore it. Don't insult anyone over their reaction to what you've done. And certainly don't call it art.

I'm not making argument to anyone's post. Just stating my opinion.

Modifié par Massa FX, 08 octobre 2012 - 10:35 .

[Captain Crash]

Always sad to see one the team go      All the best to Daniel to wherever he ends up next 


Although its not just happening at Bioware (Cliff Bleszinski is leaving Epic, Tim Gerritsen and Nate Wells left the Bioshock Infinite project, Uncharted co-designer Richard Lemarchand is now teaching) and I think people are drawing conclusions specific to Bioware.  I read this the other day and it makes some sense.  Frustrations are setting in around the gaming industry, more then people let on. The next generation isnt going to make it any easier and some are seeing that already.

High Pressure environments can take their toll after a few years and there is always a new challenge to be had elsewhere.

Modifié par Captain Crash, 08 octobre 2012 - 03:53 .

[f1r3storm]

Captain Crash wrote...

Always sad to see one the team go      All the best to Daniel to wherever he ends up next 


Although its not just happening at Bioware (Cliff Bleszinski is leaving Epic, Tim Gerritsen and Nate Wells left the Bioshock Infinite project, Uncharted co-designer Richard Lemarchand is now teaching) and I think people are drawing conclusions specific to Bioware.  I read this the other day and it makes some sense.  Frustrations are setting in around the gaming industry, more then people let on. The next generation isnt going to make it any easier and some are seeing that already.

High Pressure environments can take their toll after a few years and there is always a new challenge to be had elsewhere.

Also Rod Fergusson left Epic Games before.

I'm sure they're doomed now.

[bmwcrazy]

scyphozoa wrote...

Hopefully, themselves. I know every customer wants to think the customer is the most important part of the game industry, but the fact is, there are only about 30,000 game developers in North America, and the average time spent working in the game industry is only about 5 years. After spending so much time in the general video game community, I can confidently say, anyone making a career out of game design needs to be doing it because they love their work, not because they are seeking approval from a demoraphic of unreasonable and often obnoxious customers. 

Lastly, most customers know how to play a video game. That does not mean they know how to design a video game. Just as most customers know how to sit on a couch and watch TV or go to a theatre and watch a movie, but they are not qualified to produce a television episode or direct a movie. Being able to be entertained does not make the customer qualified to make design choices, it just means they know how to consume entertainment, so I don't think listening to customers is going to dramatically improve the quality of games, if anything, it would probably be a detriment, just IMO. 

A detriment? I disagree with you completely.

Like everything else, it is all about the right balance. As a business man myself, I understand very well the importance of customer feedback. However, I also believe that customers are NOT always right. 

It all comes down to how you want to take and process their input and use it to improve your products. It's impossible to satisfy everyone but in the same time, only a fool would ignore your customers' complaints or advice and continue to do your own things.

Nothing is black and white in the real world.

Modifié par bmwcrazy, 08 octobre 2012 - 05:03 .

[Cultist]

scyphozoa wrote...
Lastly, most customers know how to play a video game. That does not mean they know how to design a video game. Just as most customers know how to sit on a couch and watch TV or go to a theatre and watch a movie, but they are not qualified to produce a television episode or direct a movie. Being able to be entertained does not make the customer qualified to make design choices, it just means they know how to consume entertainment, so I don't think listening to customers is going to dramatically improve the quality of games, if anything, it would probably be a detriment, just IMO. 

Sure, only professional cook can judge if the food good or not.
There's only one criteria - either people like the product or don't like it. And consumers don't have to know how game is designed, all they have to do is to say why they like or dislike something. It is up to developers what to do with this feedback.

[bmwcrazy]

Cultist wrote...

Sure, only professional cook can judge if the food good or not.
There's only one criteria - either people like the product or don't like it. And consumers don't have to know how game is designed, all they have to do is to say why they like or dislike something. It is up to developers what to do with this feedback.

Also, keep in mind that most food critics are not professional chefs or culinary geniuses. Just like most all video game reviewers are not game developers themselves or haven't even made a game in their lives.

Just because you are not in the business, does it make your opinions less invalid? Most of the time, it doesn't.

Modifié par bmwcrazy, 08 octobre 2012 - 05:48 .

[TheRealJayDee]

bmwcrazy wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Sure, only professional cook can judge if the food good or not.
There's only one criteria - either people like the product or don't like it. And consumers don't have to know how game is designed, all they have to do is to say why they like or dislike something. It is up to developers what to do with this feedback.

Also, keep in mind that most food critics are not professional chefs or culinary geniuses. Just like most all video game reviewers are not game developers themselves or haven't even made a game in their lives.

Just because you are not in the business, does it make your opinions less invalid? Most of the time, it doesn't.

How much do I love the "you can't really judge things unless you're a pro in the field yourself". Gamers are fully capable of judging wether a game has properly working mechanics and wether or not the they have fun playing it. And yes, even the narrative can be judged by fans, just like with books, movies, comics etc.

[Cultist]

TheRealJayDee wrote...
How much do I love the "you can't really judge things unless you're a pro in the field yourself". Gamers are fully capable of judging wether a game has properly working mechanics and wether or not the they have fun playing it. And yes, even the narrative can be judged by fans, just like with books, movies, comics etc.

I always forget the tags
[sarcasm]Sure, only professional cook can judge if the food good or not.[/sarcasm]

[bmwcrazy]

scyphozoa wrote...

Yeah, absolutely. Consumers don't have to know how a game is designed, or how to design a game, to be entertained. But the idea is that there is a very big difference between customer feedback and creative authority. The response to why do developers not craft their games more in response directly to customer feedback is that because customers aren't really qualified to make design choices. Customers are a crowd, they can cheer or they can boo, but they aren't going to get on the field and make the plays. 

Of course we are not asking gamers to design the game. What we are talking about is designing your games and improving them by taking the feedback of the players into consideration, either during the developing process or after development. Not completely ignoring custsomers' input like what you propose.

Cutomers can't make the plays, but most of them surely know when you make a bad play and a mistake. It's about the "creative authority" working with the players.

Modifié par bmwcrazy, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:31 .

[Cultist]

After latest customer feedback from BioWare their customer base shrinked by more than 2 millions. And we already know they are keeping this design choices that have part in DA2 fiasco in DA3.

[mousestalker]

Cultist wrote...

After latest customer feedback from BioWare their customer base shrinked by more than 2 millions. And we already know they are keeping this design choices that have part in DA2 fiasco in DA3.

No. If they put out a truly spiffy game next, the realities of the gaming are that sales will increase. You're defining customer base by the number of people who bought the last game. That's not an accurate predictor of future sales.

We also have no idea at this point of how DA3 will look, feel and play. We do not know who the protagonist is, who and what companions he or she may have and what his or her goals will be. We do not know the setting nor how it looks.

They may keep only the good design choices from DA2. They may keep only the awful choices. Or they may keep only those choices that annoy only you, OP. We have no information at this point.

If you wish to cry doom about something, then cry doom about something that is certain to happen. It is an absolute certainity that the sun will go 'foom' in the future. Feel free to moan about that.