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[Gwydion Navare]

The Art of Tanking
A guide to Shield Warriors and Party Protection
 
While there are many ways to play, the most iconic and one of the most memorable is to play the party protector, the valiant guardian in massive glittering armor willing to sacrifice all for the protection of the party. But this style is nothing but complex to make work. STR is required for good armor, the shield is Maxed by DEX, and their will be enemies that require Health rather then defense to defeat. The build is to be the last man standing- always, and that’s not a simple thing to do.
 
My build, made for versatility, there are a few very viable alternatives.
 
Race: Optimized for Dwarf, Human is viable. 
class: Warrior
 
Attributes: Your primary attribute can be a number of things, STR seems obvious given talents and DPS but Dex maxes out the Defensive benefit of the shield and Con remains important for longevity. In the end though I am drawn to what makes the build unique-its versatility, and so I use, to varying degrees, all three.
 
RE: 62 LEVEL PTS, 20 Fade pts, 10 class, 4 race points, 2 tomes minimum= 98 PTS
(Human/warrior/fade base)
 
STR: 19 +23=42 (Req. for the best armor, earlier for talents and weapons, Items can decrease, but hey it’s still useful for DMG and to hit.)
DEX: 18 + 16=34 (Def is potentially higher with this build then any other, use it, besides you get to hit as well)
WIL: 14 +8=22 (This breaks 160 stamina pre items- which I found to be the threshold for the actives and the sustains I use, can change by player)
MAJ: 11 +1=12 (even #’s…yea its candy)
CUN: 16 +4=20 (full coercion and +10 base req for all hard talking checks)
CON: 15 +12=27 (300 HP pre Items, And yes this mean you can survive a dragons grab attack now, can be lower But I use this as my benchmark tank hp)
 
Result: +28 to hit +23 DMG, +4 AP, +16 Def +60 Stamina, 85 HP
 
Specs: This one is surprisingly easy: Templar and Champion, And here is why.
 
Templar: Gives you great mental resistance allowing you to fight longer, + providing anti mage abilities, your most dangerous foes.
 
Champion: Group buff + group enemy debuff and knockdown, pretty useful both for longevity and party support.
 
Berserker: Think about it, more damage and some likely unneeded health regen. Awesome for Two-handers but not the shining defender.

Reaver: blood sacrifice and defender..hmm, more seriously though there are some nice things here including a heal and a bonus Taunt, not a good mix overall to me though.
 
Skills: Coercion and CT- what else could you ever need J
 
Talents: Shield and spec talents of course, + most warrior talents, nothing shocking really. Shield defense though is impressive early (with the ability that takes the penalty away) and the lowest shield track is what gets you to master and X flanking. The Actives are OK mostly, the most useful being Pummel, which often stuns, and The third one which can cause knockdown and shattering. Taunt is req. And bravery is surprisingly effective too.
 
And so what is left? A high defense class with good DR and HP, capable of party buffs, group defuffs and anti mage combat that gets better when surrounded, can’t be flanked and can pull agro of just about anything. You are the tank, cheers.

[LynxAQ]

Gwydion Navare wrote...

their will be enemies that require Health rather then defense to defeat.

There is no enemy in this game even on nightmare that makes health better than defense. Yes even taking into consideration spells and grab type attacks.

Con remains important for longevity.

Not in this game. With high enough Dex/def you can become practically unhittable. Unhittable > high health.

RE: 62 LEVEL PTS, 20 Fade pts, 10 class, 4 race points, 2 tomes minimum= 98 PTS
(Human/warrior/fade base)

There is 21 fade points not 20.
 

STR: 19 +23=42 (Req. for the best armor, earlier for talents and weapons, Items can decrease, but hey it’s still useful for DMG and to hit.)

Seeing as you are giving a guide of sorts on tanking, a tanks job is to take aggro and survive - not do dps. So the fact that strength gives you damage is irrelevant. I would say 38 strength max, Juggernaut armour will give you all you need and give a big boost to damage reduction versus spells, therefore making up for not puttng/wasting points in constitution.

DEX: 18 + 16=34 (Def is potentially higher with this build then any other, use it, besides you get to hit as well)

The only place to put your points once you have 38 strength. Sticking points anywhere else is a waste of time.

WIL: 14 +8=22 (This breaks 160 stamina pre items- which I found to be the threshold for the actives and the sustains I use, can change by player)
MAJ: 11 +1=12 (even #’s…yea its candy)
CUN: 16 +4=20 (full coercion and +10 base req for all hard talking checks)
CON: 15 +12=27 (300 HP pre Items, And yes this mean you can survive a dragons grab attack now, can be lower But I use this as my benchmark tank hp)

All these stats are useless as a tank. Only time you would put a point in cunning is if you need to (aka your elf) and you want to get level 4 coersion. Willpower and Magic are useless as a tank (just dont put any abilities into tactics of your tank and you will always have stamina to taunt 3/4 times in a battle even with 2/3 sustainables running.

Threat in this game is a broken mechanic if it is suppose to work on damage, because I have prooven it on several occasions, had my mage/rogue etc run in a room with 2 or 3 guys, DO NOTHING but stand there, and have my tank attack the mobs and the mobs still attack the mage/rogue and not change targets. So threat is compeltely broken in this game, only thing that works reliably is taunt and taunting once makes the mobs stick to the tank like glue for the entire battle most the time.

Constituion is useless stat for a tank. DO NOT invest in it (unless its shale) but this thread is obviously talking about warriors.
 

Specs: This one is surprisingly easy: Templar and Champion, And here is why. 

Proberly the most accurate part of your thread. However, you can take reaver and when you got threaten active, the way the broken threat works in this game, threaten + plus reaver talent almost equals a passive taunt, its crazy. But the only reason to get reaver (tho the emergency heal can be handy mid fight), but its just as effective to run ur tank into the middle of the room at the start of the fight - press taunt - and have the room of mobs stick to you like glue till dead.

The part about health and grabs is irrelevant btw. Have a secondary melee weopon (if not main) with 3 hale runes + a ring or 2 with physical resistance and any grabs from bosses become useless. Physical resistance is way better way to survive a grab than wasting points in constituion.

But my 10 cents on your guide.

[Cybercat999]

LynxAQ wrote...
Threat in this game is a broken mechanic if it is suppose to work on damage, because I have prooven it on several occasions, had my mage/rogue etc run in a room with 2 or 3 guys, DO NOTHING but stand there, and have my tank attack the mobs and the mobs still attack the mage/rogue and not change targets.

I notice that a lot too, especially with mages. I wonder if there is any feedback from Devs about why is aggro so unreliable and basically yes, broken and if they intend to fix it.

[celdoloth]

I agree with you Lynx in all areas save one. Despite what I have ready, I still believe that constitution, while not nearly as good as it should be, still has some uses that exceed dexterity.



This is on Nightmare difficulty:

After I get past the beginning (around Lothering) melee mobs stop being any trouble. The only exceptions are bosses (Gaxkang, High Dragon, etc), and archer heavy groups (with the fix). Yes, high dexterity owns in these scenarios, as I have seen with my dual-wield warrior. He tanks just as well, if not better, than my shield tank because of the very high dexterity requirements from the build.



That said, there are only one type of enemy that destroys me on Nightmare and causes a few reloads occasionally: mages. I can be surrounded by elite melee mobs and a boss melee mob, and yes, dexterity makes me practically invulnerable, but one chain lightening followed by another spell, or Maker forbid, two mages doing the same thing, and my character will go down very fast.



Now yes, you could use spellward and the Knight Commander Plate to make mages a joke, but that set is, well, ugly >.>. Without taking these items into regard, constitution plays a large role in surviving even that charge up the middle to take out mages.



The hardest part of the entire game for me is that blood mage warehouse in Denerim. I walk in this room a little over halfway through and I am hit with 2 chain lightnings and a fireball. So far I either come back later with a very strong group to deal with this place, or use the spell resistance items mentioned above. Dexterity does nothing for me here.



So in conclusion, if you are willing to wear the Knight Commander plate during those sticky mage situations, then stack Dex once you meet the minimum requirements for everything else, go Templar/Champion, and call it good. And Champion is just too good to take anything in its place really.

[Grommash94]

I like to have lots of health...it really comes down to what u actually want though.

[Randomactss]

Cybercat999 wrote...

LynxAQ wrote...
Threat in this game is a broken mechanic if it is suppose to work on damage, because I have prooven it on several occasions, had my mage/rogue etc run in a room with 2 or 3 guys, DO NOTHING but stand there, and have my tank attack the mobs and the mobs still attack the mage/rogue and not change targets.

I notice that a lot too, especially with mages. I wonder if there is any feedback from Devs about why is aggro so unreliable and basically yes, broken and if they intend to fix it.

As far as I am aware its working as intended, who ever in your party has the most armor will have the highest chance to be hit. It has nothing to do with damage.

[Grommash94]

And I like having a BIT of willpower also. It is nice to throw a Holy Smite, war cry and a taunt and have like 1/3 of your stamina left with all the sustains active.

[LynxAQ]

Randomactss wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

LynxAQ wrote...
Threat in this game is a broken mechanic if it is suppose to work on damage, because I have prooven it on several occasions, had my mage/rogue etc run in a room with 2 or 3 guys, DO NOTHING but stand there, and have my tank attack the mobs and the mobs still attack the mage/rogue and not change targets.

I notice that a lot too, especially with mages. I wonder if there is any feedback from Devs about why is aggro so unreliable and basically yes, broken and if they intend to fix it.

As far as I am aware its working as intended, who ever in your party has the most armor will have the highest chance to be hit. It has nothing to do with damage.

Even if that is the case, is still not working. I have had my mage/rogue do nothing the entire fight, and had my tank warrior kill the mob whilst it tried to beat on the mage and it never switched to the warrior once. Mage was wearing robe, warrior in juggernaut.

[Gwydion Navare]

Well If you would allow a quick response Lynx, the code does indicates certain enemies with surprisingly high to hit. You cannot literally be unhitable- I looked. And yes, as others said,  mages will do damage. Yes it is possible to be immune to grab with extreme measures but, lets face it most people are not going to do what you did in that regard.

And, really, our argument is with a few attribute points in the end. I don't like to have item dependent builds, though I recognize some do, and I like to be able to succeed in conversation, which can not only be useful but is a hallmark of Role play. I also do like to use a few offensive abilities and I see this as useful. Yes this does not make the perfect tank, but it does make a Good tank that does not just stand around and take damage. Thats why my PC looks that way.

The purpose of the guide, when I created it anyway, was not simply to discuss the Min/Max dex tank, though it is a fun build to make and very much an effective option. Its to find good options to play this type of PC.

As a personal note I have played and enjoyed the Dex tank. Objectively it is better at its job...to me anyway it was less interesting.

Modifié par Gwydion Navare, 28 décembre 2009 - 10:27 .

[Grommash94]

LynxAQ wrote...

Randomactss wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

LynxAQ wrote...
Threat in this game is a broken mechanic if it is suppose to work on damage, because I have prooven it on several occasions, had my mage/rogue etc run in a room with 2 or 3 guys, DO NOTHING but stand there, and have my tank attack the mobs and the mobs still attack the mage/rogue and not change targets.

I notice that a lot too, especially with mages. I wonder if there is any feedback from Devs about why is aggro so unreliable and basically yes, broken and if they intend to fix it.

As far as I am aware its working as intended, who ever in your party has the most armor will have the highest chance to be hit. It has nothing to do with damage.

Even if that is the case, is still not working. I have had my mage/rogue do nothing the entire fight, and had my tank warrior kill the mob whilst it tried to beat on the mage and it never switched to the warrior once. Mage was wearing robe, warrior in juggernaut.

They always seem to go for me, the tank, rather than anyone else.

[swk3000]

The Threat Mechanic is wierd. They always seem to make a beeline for the character you're controlling, regardless of anything else.



Also, Threaten only works on the enemy that the Tank is currently attacking. It's not an AoE talent like Taunt is. That's why Threaten is useless.

[Grommash94]

Except for bosses....threaten is a nice thing to have up there just in case.

[swk3000]

But when you're facing a boss, there's really only one major enemy to worry about anyway. It's nice to have there, but a good Taunt will do the same thing.

[Lord Phoebus]

I agree with LynxAQ,

39 Strength (you can use the reset while leveling trick to drop this 35 STR once you have the Key to City and Helm of Honnleath) for Knight Commander's Plate and Evon the Great's Mail (which you can swap depending on the opposition). If you aren't going Templar you only need a 38 for Evon's Mail.
16 Cunning (for max coercion)
Everything else in dexterity.

For equipment other than the stuff mentioned (Spellward, Lifegiver, Boots of Diligence, Ancient Elven Gloves/ Gloves of Diligence, Fade Wall). Use a dagger instead of a sword.

For Specs. Champion/Templar if you're going to solo, Champion/Reaver if you're with a party (since your mage(s) should be taking out the enemy mages before they get a spell off).

After you've maxed your specs and sword and shield style, consider picking up Dual Striking, Momentum and the first dual wield talent (you should get enough bonus point to do this, from tomes, the Joining and the Landsmeet). It's handy to have those talents if you need to turn up the damage output in a fight.

As a tank in a party your only job is to soak up the damage from the melee enemies, your other party members should be handling the magical ones. In my experience only the elites have the attack ratings to hit a dex tank and with the equipment I mentioned above your tank should have an armor rating of 51 or so with shield wall up, so whatever comes through shouldn't do much damage either.

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:56 .

[Bond2011]

Lord Phoebus wrote...
For equipment other than the stuff mentioned (Spellward, Lifegiver, Boots of Diligence, Ancient Elven Gloves/ Gloves of Diligence, Fade Wall). Use a dagger instead of a sword. 

I have probably read this somewhere, but just can't find it right off hand, but why daggers over swords for end-game?  Does it have to do with the fact that dexterity is higher vs. strength?  And, say you have a personal issue with ever touching something that reminds you of kitchen knives when hearing the word "dagger," would it be best to have you MC play a different role?  And lets say you have a personal passion of never weilding such danty things, whether they look cool or not, just because of an abnormal, unrational thought that daggers are just dinner knives versus swords, axes, maces, staves...all of which are weapons...but a kitchen knife..

Erm...sorry...a bit of personal issues came out.  

[Sidney]

I have to agree with DEX>CON. I watched my warriors die horribly as I tried to make them tough enough to take a beating rather than nimble enough to avoid it - and this goes for any character. There's no upside to CON because if you are going to get hit you will lose health like it is going out of style - especially under the fire of mobs- so the only thing you can do is jack DEX up to avoid contact.

[dkjestrup]

Dex is always better. The only enemies that grab are the Dragons, and you'll have a lot of warning before you take on them. You also have lifegiver ring, which gives like +10 con anyway, and you'll have a mage with Forcefield, Lifeward, Heal etc, so you have no reason to fear a grab.

[Bond2011]

Sidney wrote...

I have to agree with DEX>CON. I watched my warriors die horribly as I tried to make them tough enough to take a beating rather than nimble enough to avoid it - and this goes for any character. There's no upside to CON because if you are going to get hit you will lose health like it is going out of style - especially under the fire of mobs- so the only thing you can do is jack DEX up to avoid contact.

I also have read that CON only contributes a small amount of health for every point versus the amount of defense DEX gives for every point.  So while health is a good thing, if you don't get as much bang for your points invested, its safer just to go with dex.  I probably need to restart my character if i want to be a tank...messed up my points a lot when leveling due to wanting to get my blood dragon armor and having some idea of skipping taunt...now I know the correct thing to do.  

*sigh* that means so much dialogue...so much running for items and doing quests...i might just do a dps class to avoid the stress...lol

[PatT2]

Ogres also grab. Just fixing a point in fact. They rarely kill the one they grab. Getting grabbed doesn't usually mean death anyway, at least not in the later 2/3 of the game. It does mean I hope there's a healer around.

[Fleapants]

1 point spent in Str or Dex gives ½ attack.
1 point spent in Dex gives 1 defense.

That's more or less why it's so easy to become unhittable - enemies can't keep up if you pump Dex high enough.

[Theramond]

In reference to dexterity versus constitution, I performed my own informal analysis in another thread:

Theramond wrote...

I ran three experimental "groups", to include a control "group." I ran three trials for each group. Each trial (which was video recorded) consisted of attacking the same group of bandits located in the wheat fields at Lothering. The time it took (from when the first attack occured) to when the PC died was approximated (measured in seconds). All other possible variables that could be controlled were controlled. That is, the same equipment was used, and the same talents and skills were allocated and activated.

The PC for all groups was leveled to level 20 (I was using the developer console). For the Control trials, all points were allocated to strength. For the Str_Dex trials, 38 points were allocated to strength, while the remaining points were allocated to dexterity. For the Str_Dex_Con trials, 38 points were allocated to strength, 26 points to dexterity, and the remaining to constitution. For the Str_Con trials, 38 points were allocated to strength, while the remaining points were allocated to constitution.

Of course there are some weaknessess in my experiment. I have a small sample size, and the behavior of the AI is also highly variable, which may confound the data. The results were as follows:

 

www.youtube.com/watch

At best, this gives a rather rudimentary picture, since the sample size (or number of trials) were small, and the experiment does not replicate normal gameplay circumstances. Based on the data however, I would say that both dexterity and constitution are equally beneficial (as far as defense goes, but dexterity gives an additional bonus to attack, while constitution gives an additional bonus to physical resistence). In a subsequent experiment, I had placed massive dragonbone armor on, which lengthened longevity by an additional 15-20 seconds, whereas the difference between dexterity and constitution in this experiment was within milliseconds (which is not very considerable). So what appears to be most important, is having the best armor on.

I think whether or not dexterity or constitution is best, depends on how you will use your tank, or what strategy you are implementing. If you want a more offensive tank, then definitely go dexterity. If you want a tank that can pass physical resistence checks better, then go constitution...

Modifié par Theramond, 30 décembre 2009 - 12:59 .

[battleship potemkin village]

Most games of this type (I'm thinking of Diablo II) will cap the percentage chance to avoid being hit (just like the resistances seem to be capped at 75%). If we assume that this is so, then the best "tank" build would run DEX up to the limit and put the rest in CON (which I'm told helps with physical resistance).



P.S.: Nice chart.

[RobotXYZ]

I don't think 3 observations per data points is enough.. It looks like the error bars for each point would be larger than the difference between the best and worst specs...

At best I think this test shows that all strength is not better than an alternative since this is a large enough difference.

Modifié par RobotXYZ, 29 décembre 2009 - 09:14 .

[Sidney]

That data is interesting but it conflicts with any reality we see in the game unless a lot of other factors get driven in there. Part of the death factor on high CON people is no doubt about the threat level and people tanking Sten and the fact that he draws a ton of fire but that alone isn't enough.



I've had DW tanks (high DEX) and two handed tanks (high CON) in the same party and both wearing heavy armor and the 2H warrior always suffers much more. If I had a record of potions drank my 2H warrior would be at least 2x what the DW warrior was.

[Fleapants]

battleship potemkin village wrote...

Most games of this type (I'm thinking of Diablo II) will cap the percentage chance to avoid being hit (just like the resistances seem to be capped at 75%). If we assume that this is so, then the best "tank" build would run DEX up to the limit and put the rest in CON (which I'm told helps with physical resistance).

P.S.: Nice chart.

Str, Dex and Con increases physical resistance by the same amount, but PR isn't really that important as it's used to avoid knockdowns and grabs. Your tank will be immune to targeted KDs with enough talent points into shield spec, and you should be able to kill Ogres well before they get to grab, or at least well before they inflict any real damage.
That leaves the two dragons, which will grab you no matter what.

Modifié par Fleapants, 30 décembre 2009 - 02:54 .