895 réponses à ce sujet

[NRieh]

What's worse is that for peope who didn't play Awakenings, they don't get even get Howe's appearance? Do they?

I'll tell you a secret - I played with DAA import, where he lived (but was not in party), and I did not see him either. Neither did I get any of DAA-related side quests. Was kinda...disturbing, considering that I got DAA after DA2 just to see a different import, and find out how Anders joined Justice (yeah, I know - stupid of me, should've read forums and wiki first). But that's not bug report thread, isn't it?

"Choices that matter"©. ME promoted it on their banners up to ME3. I'm still not sure were those guys who first offer variables import very smart or just naive. In both cases it became obvious very fast - they can not make it.

Take one of major ME1 choices - Virmire. They got one character dead. And they had to do something about it. And they did. They screwed both possible characters turning them into one. With shared animation and plot line. Who cares that those two were quite....different both in nature, skill, rank and profession? In ME2 it looked poor, in ME3 - it got even worse. And I honestly understand that they simply could not make two reallly different stories for each possible surviver. It would mean double amount of content, a lot of it. So - the whole idea was a big fail from the start.. Rachni queen? It would mean two 100% different missions. Kept the collector's base? It would look more like a different universe....

I'm not sure whether they already knew "it's a trap" when they offered save import first. I mean whether they knew back then, that they can not make it right, and still - made players believe they can.

I think that DA already had this hard lesson learned. If they knew it even earlier - they'd, probably, supply both Anders and Leliana with some extra Plot Armor in DAO-DAA( yeah, yeah, I know, they never died - it was just a rumor ) And while no one can "unresurrect" them now - I really hope that in further games writers will keep dead characters dead.

I'm more or less ok with how DA2 handled things. Some minor references here and there, few lines from companions and NPCs, a short appearance, some neutral references, that mention not choices themselves, but some events and former characters (e.g. Brother Genitivi's writings all over the codex). Just please make sure that all those are triggered right! And be more careful with "resolving" previous romances ("old balls and chain", huh? Or Zev who lost the memory? Have some mercy for headcanons!)

And also you could use some lootable items. Like finding a piece of Anders' manifesto in the most unexpected place (please?.. )

[AngryFrozenWater]

BioWare's weak point is continuity, so I too rather have their games without imports.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Import was a big mistake to begin with.
It can't be done properly and it won't be.
Remove it completley.

People who complain are just self-absorbed ego-maniacs anyway. :devil:

I don't think the import system has been done properly, either. The developers don't account for important story factors (like the mage protagonist becoming a national hero and obtaining political power and control over an entire army), so it feels like an important element to the story is simply being ignored. If the writers aren't going to take into account these story elements, there doesn't seem to be much of a point to the import system.

There are also the rectons that have taken place, such as the Dalish boon and the Magi boon, where the consequences of both boons were completely ignored and changed for future stories. Basically, The Warden's boons for those choices became pointless. Again, if our prior decisions don't matter, what's the point in importing our saves?

The Magi Boon isn't a retcon actually.
It's just that the Chantry overrules the ruler of Ferelden.

Just because a player made a choice, doesn't mean the conequences will stick and that no one in the world will challenge it.


All those drooling over imports and placing so much value on them are ego-maniacs anyway.
Yes you heard it right. I detest you people.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 08 octobre 2012 - 09:29 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

The amount of screw up in ME3 import suggests Yes, Remove the Save Import for DA3.

[Melca36]

They should do the interactive comic book thing like ME2 had. And people could make their game decisions then.

[Il Divo]

Genshie wrote...

They just said and even mentioned in this exact thread that they are working on improving it.

Again, saying they can make it better and actually making it better are two very different things. Past experience shows it hasn't worked. The OGB has implications far and above any choice featured in any preceding Bioware game to date. Given these two issues, I don't see it working, so better to write a fleshed out narrative using a canon storyline.

[Nerevar-as]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Import was a big mistake to begin with.
It can't be done properly and it won't be.
Remove it completley.

People who complain are just self-absorbed ego-maniacs anyway. :devil:

I don't think the import system has been done properly, either. The developers don't account for important story factors (like the mage protagonist becoming a national hero and obtaining political power and control over an entire army), so it feels like an important element to the story is simply being ignored. If the writers aren't going to take into account these story elements, there doesn't seem to be much of a point to the import system.

There are also the rectons that have taken place, such as the Dalish boon and the Magi boon, where the consequences of both boons were completely ignored and changed for future stories. Basically, The Warden's boons for those choices became pointless. Again, if our prior decisions don't matter, what's the point in importing our saves?

The Magi Boon isn't a retcon actually.
It's just that the Chantry overrules the ruler of Ferelden.

Just because a player made a choice, doesn't mean the conequences will stick and that no one in the world will challenge it.


All those drooling over imports and placing so much value on them are ego-maniacs anyway.
Yes you heard it right. I detest you people.

That should have been more detailed. Even if the Chantry says "no", the ruler of Ferelden can still say that unless they do an Exalted March s/he is the one ruling Ferelden, not the Chantry. And I¨d say most Fereldans old enough still resent the Chantry´s might makes right policy during the orlesian ocupation, and would side with the king/queen. I hope this gets adressed in DA3 (one an dream...).

[milena87]

If the impot feature stays, at least a little mention of what we accomplished in the past games is needed, because we didn't play as Rob the gardener: the Hero of Ferelden and the Champion of Kirkwall changed the world around them (or supposedly did so) and the rest of Thedas should at least have heard something.

Obviously not every choice should be addressed and we don't need to see every single character we met before making a pointless cameo. Everything should serve the story being told.

And if the DA team decides that, in order to tell the best story possible, they need to make each game a "what if" scenario, retconning some or most of our choices, then so be it. They'll just have to be honest about it.

Modifié par milena87, 08 octobre 2012 - 10:50 .

[Gileadan]

I think they can safely drop the import feature if references to previous DA games are kept vague enough. The Hero of Ferelden stopped the blight - no need to mention who his/her main squeeze was and all that. DA2 was so railroaded that an import fature would be pretty much useless anyway.

Also, two words: rachni queen. If all we get out of an import is a few codex entries and a few different lines of dialogue, it's simply not worth the effort/resources. I don't need the codex or some NPCs tell me what I already know just for ego-stroking.

Modifié par Gileadan, 08 octobre 2012 - 10:58 .

[TheRealJayDee]

David Gaider wrote...

All I'll say is that the goal is to do it better... not to scrap it.

marshalleck wrote...

Icesong wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Yes!

Wish I had completed that game; it fascinated me. Been wanting to go back and try again. Didn't get past that brothel with the sheep.

GOG has it on sale this weekend, only $2.39

Great game, just finished it a few days ago. Oh, and more power to GOG.com!

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Only downside, no matter how good they do Dragon Age 3. the majority will probably find any excuse to hate it and cling to the easiest place to grab leverage. Like DAII's maps and ME3's ending. It's probably not even really about anything in the games, its just an excuse to hate on Bioware for daring to be bought by EA, who is their real source of hatred.

Pardon me if I sound cynical. I've had a front row view since this madness started. People have been out for blood sinse. ME3 never stood a chance. Before the release, before the Space Edition was datamined, and before the beta was leaked on XBL.

I'm sorry, but this is just such a load of BS. If you really believe that a majority of the fans who criticize DA2 and ME3 wanted to hate the games, well, I can't help you. Most people don't preorder games for 50-80$ with the intention of not liking them...

[Fast Jimmy]

Melca36 wrote...

They should do the interactive comic book thing like ME2 had. And people could make their game decisions then.

My disagreement with the imports isn't the actual mechanic (which has its own problems) but what it requires - even if every game had the interactive comic, they would still need to make custom content to address each choice selected in the comic and Bioware has stated they are not willing to create loads of custom content to accomodate a small base of players who picked a certain choice. So the most any choice will result in is a side quest, with the choice more often than not just being a cameo or a few added lines of dialogue.


That being said... if the comic was how they did it in future games and the comic only covered maybe three or four choices total, with all other choices having a canon set (or even being ignored), with those three or four choices REALLY playing into the overall story (as opposed to ME3, which had more dialogue and reactivity to the fact that I collected all of the Asari Matriarch writings in ME1 than if I killed the Rachni Queen), then I could really get behind that, as I think that is something Bioware could maintain (and which wouldn't result in an ever growing number of choices to manage, just three to four every game).

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

In Dragon Age, imports probably could be sacrificed. I will admit is a unique experience and DOES make the world feel mine, so I do love that feature.

In Mass Effect, keep them. FOREVER. It's not ME without imports.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Umm... how will they do imports in a future ME game? It has to be a prequel - they could never import everyone as a Robo-organic in one game, one game where Shepherd is the god-emperor and one game where everyone is normal, except the Geth and Reapers are dead. Those three different sets all have VERY different problems and states of the galaxy, you can't tell a cohesive story that uses all three.

[Mr Fixit]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Umm... how will they do imports in a future ME game? It has to be a prequel - they could never import everyone as a Robo-organic in one game, one game where Shepherd is the god-emperor and one game where everyone is normal, except the Geth and Reapers are dead. Those three different sets all have VERY different problems and states of the galaxy, you can't tell a cohesive story that uses all three.

I personally love a nice little completely ****ed-up universe to play with. As such, I'd love an ME future struggling to rebuild with scarce resources and a whole lot of pissed off people.

[Medhia Nox]

I would suggest in stead that they work harder to omit choices that might be contradicted later.

Was there "really" a need to provide an option to Liliana freaking out about Andraste's Ashes that involved her attacking you? Would anyone have missed it?

She could have just as easily abandoned you.

[Wulfram]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I would suggest in stead that they work harder to omit choices that might be contradicted later.

Was there "really" a need to provide an option to Liliana freaking out about Andraste's Ashes that involved her attacking you? Would anyone have missed it?

She could have just as easily abandoned you.

They did that in DA2, and it left the PC as mostly a spectator.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Exactly. Removing choices that could affect the story later is equivalent to removing choice, period.

Plus, it assumes the writers know where the story is heading, with certain specifics nailed down and planned. Yet, as can be seen by the complaints about both DA2 and ME3's endings, they don't have any plot details figured out in advance, at least not to the level where they can say what choice will have a huge impact or what choice will never need to come back.

Asking this level of foresight is not a realistic request.

[TamiBx]

But...even if it doesn't affect anything, it gives me the false idea that it does! Haha. I like to at least pretend that all the previous games did matter to the current game.
Plus if there was no save import, I probably wouldn't play DA3, because it would feel to disconnected to the other games. I like save import. It makes it my world, rather than Bioware's (to me, at least)

[EricHVela]

The diamond plot (where a single plot deviates into multiple branches and comes back to a singular ending) feels "funneled" (which it is) -- a form of railroading that's worse because the story removes the choices one-by-one until nothing remains.

The game allows us to start making choices for our own story and yanks it away (yoink!) like some practical joke. We lose a lot more versus getting our own ending and, then, starting a new story with the new protagonist, separate from the previous (like the second Dragon Age was to DA:O). Each story is ours if we get our endings each time even if we get a new beginning each time.

However as DG stated, they will not simply stop what they already started. They'll just attempt to do it better. I see their viewpoint, and I have to agree. Abandoning it now seems to me like a bad move from a marketing standpoint (even if I wish they would do it).

I still do not like the idea that they're tied to so many different histories while trying to move forward. The best solution to that problem is the diamond plot where they have just one history (or just two) to use as a foundation for the next game with the mere cameos for all the other choices. I'll take what I can get. It's their story, and all they want is for us to feel like we're part of it when playing -- a worthy goal, more than we can expect from so many other games.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Umm... how will they do imports in a future ME game? It has to be a prequel - they could never import everyone as a Robo-organic in one game, one game where Shepherd is the god-emperor and one game where everyone is normal, except the Geth and Reapers are dead. Those three different sets all have VERY different problems and states of the galaxy, you can't tell a cohesive story that uses all three.

I mean like if they do a new trilogy, that should have an import. i understand some canon sacrifices have to be made.

[Sanunes]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

What's worse is that for peope who didn't play Awakenings, they don't get even get Howe's appearance? Do they? I played Dragon Age 2 with a save import that just had Origins on it in one playthrough, and Howe never even showed up. So...we're also TAKING OUT CONTENT by using imports.


Imports done perfectly would require content to be removed, so I don't think this is a very strong argument, since imports would just be akin to choices and choices done well within a single game should still in some way remove/alter content.

I think this shows the vastly different opinions from people and what they want in their games for one of the biggest complaints was how choices from the previous games for there weren't any major consequences for the choices made. The Rachni is an example that was used a lot for no matter what choice you made in Mass Effect 1, the queen is present in Mass Effect 3, just with different off-screen consequences.

As far as the Mass Effect 2 comic, it was horrible after playing Mass Effect 1 and using the comic too many things are missing and all you get to pick is the solution to major plots points, which is only a small portion of what is imported to the game, for instance you won't find Conrad or have the dialogue options if you helped Tali with her loyalty mission in Mass Effect 1. So a comic idea won't work for a player like me for they can't make it long enough to include all those choices or it would be three hours long. The other option is a checklist with all the import flags, but of course some people wouldn't like that either for it would definitely feel impersonal, but for someone like me it would give me every option without taking hours.

[Todd23]

PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT IMPORTS OR CHOICES THAT MATTER! ... GO PLAY SKYRIM!!!

[macrocarl]

I love having shout backs to previous game saves but also not having them constrict the experience of the new game playthrough. It seems like quite a balancing act for BW.

[EricHVela]

Todd23 wrote...

PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT IMPORTS OR CHOICES THAT MATTER! ... GO PLAY SKYRIM!!!

Or play Mass Effect and Dragon Age as they are currently if you're going with that all-caps statement. Heh. Choices that matter. Good one.

[Wulfram]

Todd23 wrote...

PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT IMPORTS OR CHOICES THAT MATTER! ... GO PLAY SKYRIM!!!

What I want to play is a game like Origins.  I want choices that matter, and I don't think I'm going to get them unless they scrap imports.

Modifié par Wulfram, 08 octobre 2012 - 03:20 .