895 réponses à ce sujet

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Wulfram wrote...

Todd23 wrote...

PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT IMPORTS OR CHOICES THAT MATTER! ... GO PLAY SKYRIM!!!

What I want to play is a game like Origins.  I want choices that matter, and I don't think I'm going to get them unless they scrap imports.

I'm having trouble following the thread of your logic. What do imports have to do with "choices that matter"?

I'm finding this whole thread incredibly stupid. If you don't want to import from the previous games into DA III, don't. If you want to, do it. BioWare isn't going to scrap the savefile import feature in any case.

[EricHVela]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Todd23 wrote...

PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT IMPORTS OR CHOICES THAT MATTER! ... GO PLAY SKYRIM!!!

What I want to play is a game like Origins.  I want choices that matter, and I don't think I'm going to get them unless they scrap imports.

I'm having trouble following the thread of your logic. What do imports have to do with "choices that matter"?

I'm finding this whole thread incredibly stupid. If you don't want to import from the previous games into DA III, don't. If you want to, do it. BioWare isn't going to scrap the savefile import feature in any case.

The issue is that some content in the 2nd DA requires an import to access. They said that they're going to try to handle imports better. Hopefully, that means that one won't necessarily need an import to access all content. (I suspect that one won't be able to get all combinations of content without an import, but at least, someone should be able to access every content with their standard auto-imports at least in one of them. Likely not everything in any single import, though. Need replay value.)

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 08 octobre 2012 - 03:57 .

[Arokel]

If BioWare decides to scrap imports or any kind of system that lets you determine what choices were made in the previous game then it will wind up like Baldur's Gate 2.

Don't get me wrong BG2 was a fantastic game but how they decided to handle the effects of the first game on the second was terrible. I'm not all that familiar with the inner workings of games so this may have been due to tech limitations.

[ForgottenWarrior]

MillKill wrote...

I find this feature unnecessary for Dragon Age. It does nothing but restrict writers heavily and prevent them from making characters from previous games too prominent. If they decide to ignore a decision for the sake of a better story, like Leliana's possible death, the forums scream bloody murder about retcons.

Just make a single set of choices canon. If you'd like to pretend that your previous choices are an AU what-if scenario, fine. The comics and novels took this approach. They turned out fine, because Gaider wasn't hamstrung about being ambiguous about whether Alistair was king or whether Wynne was alive. He simply went with the decisions that made for the best stories. Your savefiles where Alistair was a drunk, or Wynne died did not spontaneously delete themselves.

Baldur's Gate 2, which is often held up as Bioware's best game, completely ignored any decisions you made in the first game, even though you were playing the same character. A party from the previous game was made canon, even if you never recruited those characters or killed them. Somehow, the world kept spinning and the game was amazing.

Just let the writers pick the choices that make for the best story. That way, if they want to do a story about the Dark Ritual, they can. If they want to do a story involving Harrowmont being king, they can. Let's not restrict the writers into writing around previous our previous savegames. Let them make DA3 the best it can be by not putting in roadblocks that prevent them from telling the story they want to tell so that those who destroyed the ashes won't feel bad there wasn't a single line referencing how evil their ncharacter was. Plus, I don't want Sten to be prevented from being a prominent figure just because some people left him in Lothering.

My thoughts exactly.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Magi Boon isn't a recton actually.
It's just that the Chantry overrules the ruler of Ferelden.

Yet the US Ending has Greagoir concede to allow the mages to govern themselves after the new Tower is built, the independent Circle of Orzammar doesn't form as a consequence, and Cullen goes insane because of the royal boon. Irving even talks about the royal boon as though it's a given; there's absolutely no indication that the ruler needs to seek out permission to emancipate the Circle of Ferelden (at the end of Origins). These consequences to the Magi Boon were contradicted in later stories, and "the Chantry said no" explanation doesn't satisfy why all of these outcomes were basically handwaved.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Just because a player made a choice, doesn't mean the consequences will stick and that no one in the world will challenge it.

There were no consequences to the Magi boon in Awakening, Witch Hunt, or Dragon Age II, even with the recton that the Chantry said no. You'd imagine that Rylock would have had some response to the national hero who was a free mage who asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given it's independence. You would think Meredith would have a strong opinion about a mage gaining power as the new Arl of Amaranthine, governing an entire city, commanding an army, and being in charge of the nation's Grey Warden order. There are no consequences for the mage protagonist becoming the Hero of Ferelden, because they recton the Magi Boon and ignore the logical ramifications of a free mage gaining power in a society where mages are prohibited from doing so.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

All those drooling over imports and placing so much value on them are ego-maniacs anyway.
Yes, you heard it right. I detest you people.

I don't think it's ego. I think people simply think that, if importing your choices into future installments is supposed to appeal to fans, you should either do it right, or not do it at all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If you don't like the imports, then don't import your characters. It is as easy as that. BioWare have even been helpful enough to provide you with a few premade outcomes of the previous game(s). So why should BioWare remove a feature they have obviously commited to?

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 08 octobre 2012 - 07:14 .

[MillKill]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Todd23 wrote...

PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT IMPORTS OR CHOICES THAT MATTER! ... GO PLAY SKYRIM!!!

What I want to play is a game like Origins.  I want choices that matter, and I don't think I'm going to get them unless they scrap imports.

I'm having trouble following the thread of your logic. What do imports have to do with "choices that matter"?

I'm finding this whole thread incredibly stupid. If you don't want to import from the previous games into DA III, don't. If you want to, do it. BioWare isn't going to scrap the savefile import feature in any case.

You've missed the entire point. I don't hate the idea of imports. I think it's a great feature if done well. In a perfect world of limitless development resources, I would be totally in favor of it being included. If it is included, I'll use it.

However, by including an import feature at all, you force the choices into meaninglessness. If only half the players chose to do the dark ritual, then Bioware won't give it a prominent role. it will be reduced to a sidequest at most. By including imports, you are forcing every plotline the player could have an effect on to the side. Bioware will not be able to make the ruler of Fereldan prominent again in a future storyline because there are 5 different configurations of rulers. They'll be reduced to a cameo or sidequest. That brief sidequest escorting Harrowmont's nephew in DA2? That is about the extent to which Orzammar's ruler will matter.

If they make Fereldan's ruler canon, Orzammar's ruler canon, the Dark Ritual canon, and the the Urn choice canon, Bioware will be able to devote greater resources into actually developing those stories. Without imports, those stories and characters can actually matter. With imports, they are relegated to a cameo, a sidequests, or one or two altered lines. That's about it. I'm willing to give up a little flavor if it means that the writers won't be handcuffed into crafting a subpar story by the need to not violate anyone's precious choices.

Modifié par MillKill, 08 octobre 2012 - 07:26 .

[Wulfram]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

I'm having trouble following the thread of your logic. What do imports have to do with "choices that matter"?

I'm finding this whole thread incredibly stupid. If you don't want to import from the previous games into DA III, don't. If you want to, do it. BioWare isn't going to scrap the savefile import feature in any case.

If you have imports, then the player's choices can't be allowed to have a major impacts, because that would make it too difficult to fit into a sequel.

You can't have one game where the mages end up free and another game where the mages end up enslaved, because you'd effectively need to write two games to account for this.

Whether I personally choose to import would obviously have no effect on this - the effect on the game is the same.

To be fair, what I really want is for the game not to be designed to accomodate imports into DA4.  The damage to DA2 has already been done, so there's not such a huge problem with allowing imports into DA3 - though it does mean that any resolution of the Dark Ritual or Architect plot lines in DA3 would have to be limited, because they'd need to accomodate people who chose either way on those choices in DA:O.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Magi Boon isn't a recton actually.
It's just that the Chantry overrules the ruler of Ferelden.

Yet the US Ending has Greagoir concede to allow the mages to govern themselves after the new Tower is built, the independent Circle of Orzammar doesn't form as a consequence, and Cullen goes insane because of the royal boon. Irving even talks about the royal boon as though it's a given; there's absolutely no indication that the ruler needs to seek out permission to emancipate the Circle of Ferelden (at the end of Origins). These consequences to the Magi Boon were contradicted in later stories, and "the Chantry said no" explanation doesn't satisfy why all of these outcomes were basically handwaved.

What Irwing thought was irrelevant.
The Circles are governed by the Chatnry, which is governed by the Divine. We know this in DA:O.
There was no indication whatsoever that the king had any right to interfere (he didn't b.t.w.).
And Ferelden cetranly can't risk war in it's current state.
So the chantry saying "no" and Alistair having no choice but to accept that makes perfect sense.
Also, a lot of the ending slides were RUMORS.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Just because a player made a choice, doesn't mean the consequences will stick and that no one in the world will challenge it.

There were no consequences to the Magi boon in Awakening, Witch Hunt, or Dragon Age II, even with the recton that the Chantry said no. You'd imagine that Rylock would have had some response to the national hero who was a free mage who asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given it's independence.

So?
It takes time for news to travel to Oralis and back.

And I don't recall Awakening specificly mentioned anything about the Mage Cricle anyway.

[NedPepper]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

What's worse is that for peope who didn't play Awakenings, they don't get even get Howe's appearance? Do they? I played Dragon Age 2 with a save import that just had Origins on it in one playthrough, and Howe never even showed up. So...we're also TAKING OUT CONTENT by using imports.

Imports done perfectly would require content to be removed, so I don't think this is a very strong argument, since imports would just be akin to choices and choices done well within a single game should still in some way remove/alter content.

But isn't that part of the problem?  Because someone didn't fork out money for Awakenings, the character just doesn't exist?  And if so, it proves my point that the imports have no real signifcant value other than a quick meaningless appearance for nostalgia purposes. 

I'm coming across like a Bioware basher, but I'm actually not.  I love these games.  I just feel the choices should matter WITHIN THE GAME.  RPGs have been doing this for years.  Canonizing popular characters and choices is not a bad thing.  By making the imports, you end up taking out characters and events, and by doing that, you have to make sure that they have nothing do with the driving plot.  That's where I have problem.  You're handcuffing yourself, and the audience....

Modifié par nedpepper, 08 octobre 2012 - 11:48 .

[Vicious]

Your choices don't matter except for the purpose of fanwank. Name me one choice you made in DA:O that made a measurable difference in DA2. You can't. There were none. From Bioware's other series, here's an xxample: Grunt dies in Mass Effect 2 or is never recruited. Result: Mass Effect 3 you get another tougher-than-tough Krogan to take his place. The story continues like Grunt never existed.


Your 'choice' is an illusion. Bioware will write the game they write, regardless. given that, and the fact that developer resources are LIMITED, i would prefer they not waste time writing in fanwank and make the game itself that much more epic.

Modifié par Vicious, 08 octobre 2012 - 11:46 .

[Imp of the Perverse]

slimgrin wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...



"Your decisions only matter if I agree with them. Dead does not mean dead. Stop making stuff up."

So basically they're going to retcon with reckless abandon. 

I'm not sure what thread that screenshot is originally from, so I don't know when it was posted, but Gaider does say "we're not saying anything yet, with regards to Leliana..." It's totally plausible within the DA universe that a character who died defending Andraste, in the chamber for the urn of sacred ashes, could be brought back to life. As long as they provide some kind of explanation (rather than a pure retcon) I'm fine with them making changes like that. I'm hoping they do something similar with respect to Morrigan's old god baby, it's one of the most interesting things in the series in my opinion, but if they can't find a way to work it into every playthrough they'll have to either abandon it or make it a footnote.

[Henioo]

[Vicious]

It's totally plausible within the DA universe that a character who died defending Andraste, in the chamber for the urn of sacred ashes, could be brought back to life. As long as they provide some kind of explanation

epic

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, a lot of the ending slides were RUMORS.

Putting the word in capital letters doesn't change the fact that the developers handwaved many outcomes for the Epilogues, including the Magi Boon. You're welcome to keep repeating that the Chantry had authority, but the conclusion to Origins never beings this up, and you continually ignore the consequences of the Magi Boon at the end of Origins: Greagoir concedes to allow the mages to govern themselves in the US Ending, the independent Circle of Orzammar isn't established as a direct consequence of this particular boon (which makes sense since the Circle of Ferelden is supposed to be independent now), and Cullen loses his sanity. If it was simply rumors, why isn't there an independent Circle anymore? Why does Cullen lose his mind? Why doesn't Greagoir point out that the ruler doesn't have the authority to decree that the Circle is now free? You say the same thing, but you ignore the actual consequences of the Magi Boon. It's a recton to say the "Chantry said no" when there were actual consequences because of the Magi Boon.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So?

A free mage gains political power, and command over a military, in a society where mages are prohibited from having such authority, and are arguably vilified, and your response is "so?" My point is that it should logically have an impact; it's not as though it was a secret that the Hero of Ferelden would become the new Warden-Commander and Arl of Amaranthine.

[PsychoBlonde]

Mr Fixit wrote...

Let's put it this way. No/limited import game allows players to do A, B, C, D, or E in the course of the game. Then, for the next game in the series, BioWare comes in and says 'C is canon' and shapes the game around that.

Or, they could just not ever mention anything relating to A, B, C, D, or E again.  Which is pretty much what they did for 95% of the "decisions" you made in Origins.  Or, even worse, to my mind, you got a one-line throwaway joke.

Or, they could do what Kotor2 did, and let you select several optional world-state variables at the beginning of the game.  It imported the "important" details from Kotor (er, apart from a few bugs) just as well as an import would have, and you didn't have to play the entire freakin' first game over again in order to experiment with some of the options.

They can scrap imports and not have "canon".  What remains to be seen is whether they can come up with a way to implement an import that actually justifies having the thing in the first place.

[Genshie]

What I find hilarious about this thread is that they themselves said that they are not getting rid of it period  (they may change/improve upon it but will not get rid of it for this title) and yet people are still asking them to do so. Yes, perhaps for a future title they may. And guess what I believe that the new ME title will not have an import option since it is either A. A prequel B. A spin-off or less than likely C. A sequel that takes place way far into the future where the results of ME3 don't even influence it at all. Lastley there is a new I.P. they are starting up.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, a lot of the ending slides were RUMORS.

Putting the word in capital letters doesn't change the fact that the developers handwaved many outcomes for the Epilogues, including the Magi Boon.

Nope. It wans't handwaved. Accept it already.
There can be plenty of explanations as to how any why, but it isn't a full retcon. Not really.

They don't say "The PC never did X".
The PC did X, but it turned out differently than he hoped/believed.

It's a recton to say the "Chantry said no" when there were actual consequences because of the Magi Boon.

Rumors, guesses, legends.

Consequences that are really irrelevant.
"Problems" that be easily explained.

A free mage gains political power, and command over a military, in a society where mages are prohibited from having such authority, and are arguably vilified, and your response is "so?" My point is that it should logically have an impact; it's not as though it was a secret that the Hero of Ferelden would become the new Warden-Commander and Arl of Amaranthine.

Wardens are a seperate groups.
And the Warden did only have a temporary "command" over those armies because of the Blight.

I fail to see why you feel it was necessary for Meredith to comment on that.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 09 octobre 2012 - 11:11 .

[Ilkec]

save import is important in games like DA and ME because you always make choices, now if it was a game where everything was already determined and there was only one way to go then yes there would be no reason for it but in this game it is a MUST HAVE!!!

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Putting the word in capital letters doesn't change the fact that the developers handwaved many outcomes for the Epilogues, including the Magi Boon.

Nope. It wans't handwaved. Accept it already.
There can be plenty of explanations as to how any why, but it isn't a full retcon. Not really.

You're not even addressing the fact that there are different consequences that transpire as a direct result of the Magi Boon, as well as the fact that the recton that "the Chantry said no" is never brought up as a possibility even once at the conclusion of Origins for the mage protagonist.

In the US Ending, both Queen Anora and King Alistair will declare to Knight-Commander Greagoir that the new Circle Tower will be independent. King Alistair begins his decree, "How do you properly honor someone like that? The Grey Wardens are building a magnificent tomb at Weisshaupt, right next to Garahel's, but I'd like to do something as well." A short while after King Alistair asks Knight-Commander Greagoir to step forward, the King states, "And once the tower is built, Knight-Commander, I am granting the new Circle autonomy."

Knight-Commander Greagoir interupts, "What?! But... your Majesty! I think what has happened only proves--!" If the Chantry was the one who King Alistair has to seek permission from, why would Greagoir try to dissuade the ruler in the first place? The conversation continues, "It proves what a substantial contribution a mage can make. They have earned the chance to prove they can watch themselves, don't you agree?"

"I... yes, your Majesty. As you say." Greagoir concludes.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

They don't say "The PC never did X".
The PC did X, but it turned out differently than he hoped/believed.

Except we read about the ramifications of the Magi Boon at the end of Origins. The Epilogue slides show that Cullen lost his sanity as a result of the Circle of Ferelden being given its independence, and it showed that an independent Circle of Orzammar isn't established as a consequence.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a recton to say the "Chantry said no" when there were actual consequences because of the Magi Boon.

Rumors, guesses, legends.

Considering that the developers handwaved quite a few outcomes (including the Dalish boon and the outcomes for that royal boon in the Epilogue), as well as the outright deaths of Oghren, Leliana, Anders, and Justice, I think it's safe to say that it's a recton (since it contradicts the outcomes that result from the Magi Boon).

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Consequences that are really irrelevant.
"Problems" that be easily explained.

I respectfully disagree. There's the fact that the new ruler of Ferelden publicly states that the Circle of Ferelden has been given its independence. First Enchanter Irving thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing the Circle from "its shackles." It's clear that it wasn't originally intended for the Circle of Ferelden not to be given its independence, especially considering the lack of an independent Circle of Orzammar, and Cullen losing his sanity because the Circle has been freed.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A free mage gains political power, and command over a military, in a society where mages are prohibited from having such authority, and are arguably vilified, and your response is "so?" My point is that it should logically have an impact; it's not as though it was a secret that the Hero of Ferelden would become the new Warden-Commander and Arl of Amaranthine.

Wardens are a seperate groups.
And the Warden did only have a temporary "command" over those armies because of the Blight.

I fail to see why you feel it was necessary for Meredith to comment on that.

The Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Ferelden is a mage with unprecedented power in Andrastian society, and governs an entire city, commands an army, and leads the order of the Grey Wardens throughout the nation. Since mages aren't supposed to have that kind of authority, it's logical that the Chantry would have some thought about a mage possessing that kind of power, including the Knight-Commander in the neighboring city-state of Kirkwall.

[Kail Ashton]

I'll presume this idea was universally considered "poorly thought out and ignorible" and thus i'll assume the 11 pages of comments are everyone ridiculing the topic creator *hands out rotten tomatoes to everyone* carry on

[Blessed Silence]

bleetman wrote...

If you can't reasonably accurately reflect decisions made in earlier games later on in the series, then you shouldn't have allowed me to make them in the first place.

Agreed.  If that's the case, better to have made everything static and linear, pushing me through the maze of one place to another with set outcomes.

Which is what this game didn't do.

I wouldn't mind just specific things being kept with choices, of course those vary from person to person.

I just want Sebastian.  *broken record*  Or Cullen ... hm maybe.

[marshalleck]

Kail Ashton wrote...

I'll presume this idea was universally considered "poorly thought out and ignorible" and thus i'll assume the 11 pages of comments are everyone ridiculing the topic creator *hands out rotten tomatoes to everyone* carry on

Hope you've got a fresh change of clothes.

[nightscrawl]

nedpepper wrote...

What's worse is that for peope who didn't play Awakenings, they don't get even get Howe's appearance?  Do they?  I played Dragon Age 2 with a save import that just had Origins on it in one playthrough, and Howe never even showed up.  So...we're also TAKING OUT CONTENT by using imports.

That's not entirely accurate. Content wasn't so much removed for non-DAA imports as those players were provided with alternative content. There is an alternative quest in DA2 Act 2 for a non-DAA import which involves doing basically the same thing (going into the Deep Roads).

Using your "taking out content" argument, one could also say that DAA-import players miss out on the Fool's Gold content as well. Sauce for the goose, and all that.

However, I will go along with the idea that Finding Nathaniel provides more alternative content. The loot rewards are better and there is additional family contact if you had your sibling join the Grey Wardens. Regardless of whether or not the Architect was meaningful to the player who had not done DAA or you were familiar with Nathaniel and could appreciate Anders's comments to him, I think overall that Finding Nathaniel is just better additional content than Fool's Gold was.

If you're going to use that argument, a better example can be a DAO import where you crowned Behlen over Harrowmont. If you crowned Behlen, in Act 1 you get the additional quest Last of His Line where you have to help a Harrowmont. You get some decent exp and a nice chunk of change. For importing a King Harrowmont save you get nothing.

[Isaidlunch]

Kail Ashton wrote...

I'll presume this idea was universally considered "poorly thought out and ignorible" and thus i'll assume the 11 pages of comments are everyone ridiculing the topic creator *hands out rotten tomatoes to everyone* carry on

A few people actually read the arguments in favor of scrapping it and then either posted their support or refuted those arguments, instead of posting kneejerk reactions. Imagine that.

Modifié par Kazanth, 09 octobre 2012 - 08:39 .