895 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

This is a dead issue, at least as far Inquisition is concerned. Save imports are going to be there. Don't use them if you don't want to. Sheesh...

Save imports are there for DA3. I am looking at the entire series if it gets pass DA3. The issue is never dead as long as someone is around to breathe life into it. I will continue to be around.

[draken-heart]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Also we arenot trying to change Bioware's mind. As Fast Jimmy said we are here to change the gamers minds. If we change enough of those then even Bioware will listen.

Not if they choose not to listen (read ignore the thread)

Plus, IF choice is an illusion then Why force people to play with a canon set of rules and choices when one could allow the illusion to continue?

Modifié par draken-heart, 07 novembre 2012 - 09:07 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

NOOOOOO and NO!..you're kidding?..Do we get to play and make decisions for nothing?!...Go and play with the first to the second part, and do not whine.....

We know that they do not transfer all of them(like...Do you give  a coin for Lothering child, or Do you go to a brothel in Denerim / Kirkwall...or Do you slept with someone as Isabella/Leliana/Zevran and get HIV, syphilis from them...and others), and this is understandable .... but at least the most important and decisive events there must be

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 07 novembre 2012 - 09:54 .

[milena87]

I'm just not sure that the illusion of a world shaped by decisions made in past games is worth it and I fear that the DA team will limit the scope of the story (again) to prevent the creation of world-changing choices to be ignored in the next game.

I'm obviously ready to be proven wrong, but so far I've seen nothing that could change my mind.
DA2, ME2 and ME3 all ignored or downplayed the important choices (Wrex is probably the only exception), while a lot of content was created for the smaller, and ultimately pointless, things. I don't deny that they're nice and maybe the devs could find a way to keep importing these smaller events/choices, but the world-changing consequences are another matter.

I'm also rather curious about The Witcher 3 and how CDP will handle the choices made in TW2.

[Fast Jimmy]

Not if they choose not to listen (read ignore the thread)

Plus, IF choice is an illusion then Why force people to play with a canon set of rules and choices when one could allow the illusion to continue?

Because the illusion is flimsy and weakens the story. Just like we've been arguing for a dozen pages now.

Now you're going to come back and say you don't see how it will weaken the story, I'm going to make references to past choices and how they could logically play into the setting of a Mage/Templar World Wide War, you're going to give reasons why you think NO choice will play a role in this game, I'm going to say it doesn't matter because not having the option to reference past events and locations is exactly what I am talking about when I say limiting the story, you are going to say they should just ignore all previous choices (but still import them into the next game - like THAT makes any sense) and then I'll say if you are going to be ignoring the choices, why not set a canon and then you can use these past choices in a meaningful way.

And then you are going to say if the choice is an illusion, why bother setting a canon. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I'm fine with continuing to go in circles with you... but I'm not sure you even realize that we are going in circles, as you are asking questions as if you haven't asked them before.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 07 novembre 2012 - 12:20 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Dark Korsar wrote...

NOOOOOO and NO!..you're kidding?..Do we get to play and make decisions for nothing?!...Go and play with the first to the second part, and do not whine.....

We know that they do not transfer all of them(like...Do you give  a coin for Lothering child, or Do you go to a brothel in Denerim / Kirkwall...or Do you slept with someone as Isabella/Leliana/Zevran and get HIV, syphilis from them...and others), and this is understandable .... but at least the most important and decisive events there must be

I think you actually have it backwards. Bioware has shown it is much easier and they do a better job of handling small choices rather than large ones. Its much easier to have that child you gave a coin to in Denerim show up in the story 10/15 years later and now be a wealthy merchant, as an example. Maybe if you gave him money, he says he learned long ago the value of generosity and has fair prices, but if you didn't give him a coin, he says something along the lines of he always learned to look out for himself and charges crazy high prices. 

Examples of Bioware doing this in the past are in ME3 referencing Kelly Chambers or Conrad Verner suddenly being incredibly useful if you've completed a ton of random fetch quests in earlier games. Or DA2 making lots of random choices feed into the Codex. What Bioware has had trouble doing is finding ways where the Big Choices are suitably represented in a way that doesn't basically set a canon regardless and doesn't use a ton of resources to create a glut of custom content. 

If Anders died, he's still alive. If Leliana died, she's still alive. If you saved the Anvil, there is no mention of the dwareves retaking the Deep Roads or being viewed as a threat to topsiders. If you preserved the Urn, there is only a simple battle-quest about some bandits selling fake ashes for cures. If you named Allistair/Anora/The Warden as the ruler(s) of Ferelden, this is all but glazed over in the cameo. Witch Hunt, which gives the Warden the ability to leave to another dimension, is completely ignored by this cameo, actually, since it states the Warden is in Denerim (I guess inter-dimensional travel isn't all that permenent?). Basically, every choice was reduced to a codex entry or a mini-side-quest, with only a small handful of dialogue lines and a fethc quest/battle quest design. And don't even get me started on ME3 (which is fair enough, since the DA and the ME teams aren't the same).

Point being, there has been a prescedence of making big choices all result in the same thing, while little choices can be easily referenced and implemented. Romances, side quests, random acts... these are simple things to manage. Big Choices, ones that are demonstrated as affecting the world at large, very rarely live up to that perception. And, granted, DA2 didn't make a lot of sense for having Dwarven politics play a larger role, but DA3, which will involve pretty much the entire land of Thedas in the scope of the Mage/Templar War, will have no choice but at least make references to the powerful decisions made in the past. Much like ME3 had no choice but to bring all of their big import choices to bear... and which did not work out that well for them.

[Psycho_Kenshin]

There are appealing aspects to the import style, and limitations as mentioned. It ties their hands in a lot of ways with the resources, since they can't focus much on a cast of characters that may be dead for example in some people's saves. And if they do focus on them it's hard not to contradict endings of previous games.

That said, on the whole I am liking it.

Though on the subject, this game definitely needs a "save maker" or decision making prologue bit like that Mass Effect 2 DLC. Having it tied only to your save files is a little messy, and for me switching from 360 to PC wouldn't be able to import for this one.

Modifié par Psycho_Kenshin, 07 novembre 2012 - 01:04 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Psycho_Kenshin wrote...

There are appealing aspects to the import style, and limitations as mentioned. It ties their hands in a lot of ways with the resources, since they can't focus much on a cast of characters that may be dead for example in some people's saves. And if they do focus on them it's hard not to contradict endings of previous games.

That said, on the whole I am liking it.

Though on the subject, this game definitely needs a "save maker" or decision making prologue bit like that Mass Effect 2 DLC. Having it tied only to your save files is a little messy, and for me switching from 360 to PC wouldn't be able to import for this one.

I agree with you on the save maker. Although then you run the risk of them not reflecting a choice in the save maker that people thought was extremely important (for instance, I don't think they included any romance questions in that).

In regards to the comment of you like it on the whole... any examples you'd like to give? I'd like to see some people say when they saw an outcome of a save import with DA and thought "I really like these imports." Or is it just a feeling of the fact your "history" is considered still true in the next game, even if they go about that by ignoring the vast majority of your choices?

[Bernhardtbr]

Dark Korsar wrote...

NOOOOOO and NO!..you're kidding?..Do we get to play and make decisions for nothing?!...Go and play with the first to the second part, and do not whine.....

We know that they do not transfer all of them(like...Do you give  a coin for Lothering child, or Do you go to a brothel in Denerim / Kirkwall...or Do you slept with someone as Isabella/Leliana/Zevran and get HIV, syphilis from them...and others), and this is understandable .... but at least the most important and decisive events there must be

Lol HIV... well if you get the Ashes they can cure that so no problem bro

Ultimatedly it depends on how much continuity Bioware wants the game to have, and we don´t have that info. If both DA:O and DA 2 protagonists are relevant to DA 3 then save imports will be a good addition, else not as much (specially because as you said it´s tricky to decide which options are relevant/canon and which aren´t and so it´s better to go the safe route and remove imports).

[TheRealJayDee]

Realmzmaster wrote...

My friends listen to my opinion as I listen to theirs. Our tastes run roughly the same. I do not have to form an opinion for them. I simply layout what I think. If they choose to follow that advice that is on them. They form their own opinion. If they choose to let what I say influence them that is their call.

Same here. I know what they like and how their tastes compare to mine when it comes to games, movies etc, and they know I know and trust my judgement on things enough to take it into consideration. Of course they still may inform themselves from other scources, but if it's my firsthand experience witrh a game versus, say, a professional review I'd be the one they're more likely to listen to.

That being said, none of my friends bought or played DA2 or ME3. The respective demos, reviews from other users and general reaction did their part on that, so it wasn't just me.

[Snypy]

David Gaider wrote...

Snypy wrote...
What's the point of making decisions if those decisions should be completely invalidated later on?

Because the primary reasons for decisions to be put into a game is not so they can be carried over to a sequel. They exist for the benefit of the game where you make those decisions. Importing decisions in any capacity is a feature of a sequel, not the reason you have decisions in the prequel.

And it's a feature we will continue to support. I appreciate the fact there are those who think establishing a canon with each new game will make for a stronger story, but in our opinion so does allowing you the benefit of believing this is your world. Yes, that is largely an illusion and one that may break down for some folks depending on how stringent thier requirements are for divergence. The fact that it'll never be enough for some doesn't, however, mean that the benefit it has for everyone else should be ignored.

And it won't be. As I've said here and elsewhere, how we're doing imports is something we'll eventually address. The issue for us has always been how to do it better, not whether to do it at all. Not doing it at all would be something to consider for some other game series that isn't Dragon Age.

Yeah, I like the illusion the story takes place in "my own universe." Therefore, I'm glad DA games will continue providing players with an option to import their decisions from previous titles for the sake of world consistency.

[jackofalltrades456]

Honestly, if they return as they were in Dragon Age 2, then I think I'm going to past on the feature...

Choices that would have mattered like Leliana, Anders, Mage boon, Elven lands, get written off and retconned, and then having choices that had no impact on the plot ( Sophia Dryden, Werewolves, Dwarven King.) fully acknowledged. We're better off just sticking with the default pre-made stories.

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Not if they choose not to listen (read ignore the thread)

Plus, IF choice is an illusion then Why force people to play with a canon set of rules and choices when one could allow the illusion to continue?

Because the illusion is flimsy and weakens the story. Just like we've been arguing for a dozen pages now.

Now you're going to come back and say you don't see how it will weaken the story, I'm going to make references to past choices and how they could logically play into the setting of a Mage/Templar World Wide War, you're going to give reasons why you think NO choice will play a role in this game, I'm going to say it doesn't matter because not having the option to reference past events and locations is exactly what I am talking about when I say limiting the story, you are going to say they should just ignore all previous choices (but still import them into the next game - like THAT makes any sense) and then I'll say if you are going to be ignoring the choices, why not set a canon and then you can use these past choices in a meaningful way.

And then you are going to say if the choice is an illusion, why bother setting a canon. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I'm fine with continuing to go in circles with you... but I'm not sure you even realize that we are going in circles, as you are asking questions as if you haven't asked them before.

Like the ashes? they may, but I do not see it unless the Templars steal them for use in the war.

The anvil? Unless the dwarves commit a fighting force instead of a trade force, I do not see How the dwarves having golems make any sense to the overarching plot of the game.

OGB? what LOGICAL reason would Morrigan have for bringing her son to Thedas? Unless she comes back to face her mother, I do not see how the OGB fits into the story of the mage-templar war.

If you do not like where the series is heading, then you can leave the game and never play again. I am sure Bethesda games are more your style anyways.

In the end, I see these threads as "Imports are the problem, not how they are being implemented, they should be removed because all imports do is weaken the story." Anything  I missed? Plus, some of us would rather have "Our worlds", which we defined by the actions of our wardens, and not have Bioware make the decisions for us, because WE know what WE want, not them.

Modifié par draken-heart, 07 novembre 2012 - 06:50 .

[Zeta42]

Removing the savegame import or limiting it sounds like a good idea. Sooner or later DA will reach the point where decisions made in DA:O or even DA2 will be insignificant (maybe it will happen in DA4). Because it's Bioware, our choices will ultimately lead to the same outcome (or a really bad outcome will be deemed non-canon and not suitable for import, like Shepard's death in ME2), so maybe there will be a DA game where a new tale will begin and importing just won't be necessary.

[draken-heart]

Zeta42 wrote...

Removing the savegame import or limiting it sounds like a good idea. Sooner or later DA will reach the point where decisions made in DA:O or even DA2 will be insignificant (maybe it will happen in DA4). Because it's Bioware, our choices will ultimately lead to the same outcome (or a really bad outcome will be deemed non-canon and not suitable for import, like Shepard's death in ME2), so maybe there will be a DA game where a new tale will begin and importing just won't be necessary.

Maybe, but like I said before, it seems to me that these threads want the import system removed because they think it is the import system itself that is the problem. Good to see someone listens, sort of agreeing with Limiting the choices to the ones that make the most sense to the plot.

[Fast Jimmy]

If you do not like where the series is heading, then you can leave the game and never play again. I am sure Bethesda games are more your style anyways.

The audacity of you assuming my gaming preferences is laughable.

Maybe, but like I said before, it seems to me that these threads want the import system removed because they think it is the import system itself that is the problem. Good to see someone listens, sort of agreeing with Limiting the choices to the ones that make the most sense to the plot.

You say this, but you don't seem to realize that your precious pet, companion romances, are likely viewed as a choice that will be viewed as hard to administer. And then they'll pull a Witcher and just throw you in the bedroom of an LI you didn't pick in the previous game for the next DA game. Or only having one LI option (bi-sexuapanic course) in the game. And then, and only then, will you finally see that limiting choice is not the problem. Limiting choice will not fix the import system.

The import system breaks the feature of having choices. It should never, EVER be the other way around.

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If you do not like where the series is heading, then you can leave the game and never play again. I am sure Bethesda games are more your style anyways.

The audacity of you assuming my gaming preferences is laughable.

Maybe, but like I said before, it seems to me that these threads want the import system removed because they think it is the import system itself that is the problem. Good to see someone listens, sort of agreeing with Limiting the choices to the ones that make the most sense to the plot.

You say this, but you don't seem to realize that your precious pet, companion romances, are likely viewed as a choice that will be viewed as hard to administer. And then they'll pull a Witcher and just throw you in the bedroom of an LI you didn't pick in the previous game for the next DA game. Or only having one LI option (bi-sexuapanic course) in the game. And then, and only then, will you finally see that limiting choice is not the problem. Limiting choice will not fix the import system.

The import system breaks the feature of having choices. It should never, EVER be the other way around.

Then maybe they should do away with choices altogether then? MAke the entire game linear so no one complains ever again. OH wait, PEOPEL WILL STILL COMPLAIN! DROP IT!

Set Canon: People will complain abotu having a choice in agame that means nothing because the canon is set for the next game.

Import: These threads pop up.

people will complain no matter what, so suck it up and find a way to enjoy the game.

Bioware has already said it will be in the game, so trying to get others on your side is pointless because IT has already been CONFIRMED!!!!!!!!

Dont you guys get that people can enjpoy games for things other than a strong story?

Modifié par draken-heart, 07 novembre 2012 - 09:21 .

[Realmzmaster]

draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If you do not like where the series is heading, then you can leave the game and never play again. I am sure Bethesda games are more your style anyways.

The audacity of you assuming my gaming preferences is laughable.

Maybe, but like I said before, it seems to me that these threads want the import system removed because they think it is the import system itself that is the problem. Good to see someone listens, sort of agreeing with Limiting the choices to the ones that make the most sense to the plot.

You say this, but you don't seem to realize that your precious pet, companion romances, are likely viewed as a choice that will be viewed as hard to administer. And then they'll pull a Witcher and just throw you in the bedroom of an LI you didn't pick in the previous game for the next DA game. Or only having one LI option (bi-sexuapanic course) in the game. And then, and only then, will you finally see that limiting choice is not the problem. Limiting choice will not fix the import system.

The import system breaks the feature of having choices. It should never, EVER be the other way around.

Then maybe they should do away with choices altogether then? MAke the entire game linear so no one complains ever again. OH wait, PEOPEL WILL STILL COMPLAIN! DROP IT!

Set Canon: People will complain abotu having a choice in agame that means nothing because the canon is set for the next game.

Import: These threads pop up.

people will complain no matter what, so suck it up and find a way to enjoy the game.

Bioware has already said it will be in the game, so trying to get others on your side is pointless because IT has already been CONFIRMED!!!!!!!!

Dont you guys get that people can enjpoy games for things other than a strong story?

It has been confirmed for DA3. DA4 and beyond is another matter. I enjoy games for lots of reasons, but Bioware is known for their strong stories like Bethesda is known for open world games. Ask most of the people on this forum would they buy a Bioware game if they thought the characters and stories were going to be weak.

[draken-heart]

draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If you do not like where the series is heading, then you can leave the game and never play again. I am sure Bethesda games are more your style anyways.

The audacity of you assuming my gaming preferences is laughable.

Maybe, but like I said before, it seems to me that these threads want the import system removed because they think it is the import system itself that is the problem. Good to see someone listens, sort of agreeing with Limiting the choices to the ones that make the most sense to the plot.

You say this, but you don't seem to realize that your precious pet, companion romances, are likely viewed as a choice that will be viewed as hard to administer. And then they'll pull a Witcher and just throw you in the bedroom of an LI you didn't pick in the previous game for the next DA game. Or only having one LI option (bi-sexuapanic course) in the game. And then, and only then, will you finally see that limiting choice is not the problem. Limiting choice will not fix the import system.

The import system breaks the feature of having choices. It should never, EVER be the other way around.

Then maybe they should do away with choices altogether then? MAke the entire game linear so no one complains ever again. OH wait, PEOPEL WILL STILL COMPLAIN! DROP IT!

Set Canon: People will complain abotu having a choice in agame that means nothing because the canon is set for the next game.

Import: These threads pop up.

people will complain no matter what, so suck it up and find a way to enjoy the game.

Bioware has already said it will be in the game, so trying to get others on your side is pointless because IT has already been CONFIRMED!!!!!!!!

Dont you guys get that people can enjpoy games for things other than a strong story?

To summarize, you want a strong story? Go read a book. You want something that is fun? Play a game.

Why focus on the story aspect when that is not why people play games. People play games because they fun, not because it has a strong story. I could say That TW2 has a strong story, but not like it because it looks stupid to me, or the Gameplay aspect does not appeal to me.

[draken-heart]

Realmzmaster wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If you do not like where the series is heading, then you can leave the game and never play again. I am sure Bethesda games are more your style anyways.

The audacity of you assuming my gaming preferences is laughable.

Maybe, but like I said before, it seems to me that these threads want the import system removed because they think it is the import system itself that is the problem. Good to see someone listens, sort of agreeing with Limiting the choices to the ones that make the most sense to the plot.

You say this, but you don't seem to realize that your precious pet, companion romances, are likely viewed as a choice that will be viewed as hard to administer. And then they'll pull a Witcher and just throw you in the bedroom of an LI you didn't pick in the previous game for the next DA game. Or only having one LI option (bi-sexuapanic course) in the game. And then, and only then, will you finally see that limiting choice is not the problem. Limiting choice will not fix the import system.

The import system breaks the feature of having choices. It should never, EVER be the other way around.

Then maybe they should do away with choices altogether then? MAke the entire game linear so no one complains ever again. OH wait, PEOPEL WILL STILL COMPLAIN! DROP IT!

Set Canon: People will complain abotu having a choice in agame that means nothing because the canon is set for the next game.

Import: These threads pop up.

people will complain no matter what, so suck it up and find a way to enjoy the game.

Bioware has already said it will be in the game, so trying to get others on your side is pointless because IT has already been CONFIRMED!!!!!!!!

Dont you guys get that people can enjpoy games for things other than a strong story?

It has been confirmed for DA3. DA4 and beyond is another matter. I enjoy games for lots of reasons, but Bioware is known for their strong stories like Bethesda is known for open world games. Ask most of the people on this forum would they buy a Bioware game if they thought the characters and stories were going to be weak.

Then why bother now?Why not wait for those games to be announced? Other than the fact that if this game bombs, there won't be a DA4 or beyond.

Plus, Hasn't DA 3 been worked on for while before they announced it?

Why don't you ask them? I found the majority of DA2's story pretty strong, others didn't. Differences of opinions mean nothing to you so why bother with it now?

Modifié par draken-heart, 07 novembre 2012 - 09:33 .

[Realmzmaster]

draken-heart wrote...

Then why bother now?Why not wait for those games to be announced? Other than the fact that if this game bombs, there won't be a DA4 or beyond.

Plus, Hasn't DA 3 been worked on for while before they announced it?

You do not wait until the next game is announced. One has to get the word out as soon as possible and as often as possible to have the maximum effect. That is simply good marketing. That is how people are influenced. Repeat the message so people remember it.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 07 novembre 2012 - 09:38 .

[The Elder King]

Realmzmaster wrote...



Also we arenot trying to change Bioware's mind. As Fast Jimmy said we are here to change the gamers minds. If we change enough of those then even Bioware will listen.

From Gaider's post, it seems that import is a feuture they want in DA regardless how see it.
Regardless, do you seriously expect to change people's mind here, in the BSN? (without considering that the people that you might convince here are not enough in numbers to convince Bioware of removing the import feature).

Modifié par hhh89, 07 novembre 2012 - 09:44 .

[draken-heart]

Realmzmaster wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Then why bother now?Why not wait for those games to be announced? Other than the fact that if this game bombs, there won't be a DA4 or beyond.

Plus, Hasn't DA 3 been worked on for while before they announced it?

You do not wait until the next game is announced. One has to get the word out as soon as possible and as often as possible to have the maximum effect. That is simply good marketing. That is how people are influenced. Repeat the message so people remember it.

And you think a story is weak if you can't get into it. That is your complaint, that the import feature ruins your ability to get into the game.

The point of a story in a game is to hook the player, to get them into the world.

Hawke losing his/her mother-I feel for Hawke because I lost my father to a surgery gone wrong.
The mage warden at the tower-I understand the concern there, because I would feel the same way if it were me coming ot my home to find it ravaged by demons.

Without that ability to connect the game's story to the player, the game has no story. Understand now?

Modifié par draken-heart, 07 novembre 2012 - 09:48 .

[Fast Jimmy]

If DA3's import system is great and really fulfilling, I and others like myself will likely stop. If it continues to not be a feature that is satisfying, we will continue making our case, only this time with more evidence. It's not something I take personally, it's just something that holds the game back.

And if you prefer playing games with little/bad story, maybe YOU are the one who should find another game. Story, choice and now (unfortunately) romances are the hallmarks of Bioware's products. If you don't like story or choice in your games, you are probably on the wrong site.

On the other hand, if games that offer engaging charcters, options in how our character and game world are defined and narratives that make us passionate about the people we encounter and the things we do, then perhaps we are BOTH right where we belong.

I think TW3 and DA3 will both be moments of truth in the gaming industry to the validity of imported choices. Where ME3 made all previous choices nil, these games may do the impossible. Nothing would make me happier (well, not TW3, as I'm not all that into that series). But I can't envision how that would happen without limiting choice, cauterizing previous story threads or raising the sticker price of the game.

[Realmzmaster]

draken-heart wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Then why bother now?Why not wait for those games to be announced? Other than the fact that if this game bombs, there won't be a DA4 or beyond.

Plus, Hasn't DA 3 been worked on for while before they announced it?

You do not wait until the next game is announced. One has to get the word out as soon as possible and as often as possible to have the maximum effect. That is simply good marketing. That is how people are influenced. Repeat the message so people remember it.

And you think a story is weak if you can't get into it. That is your complaint, that the import feature ruins your ability to get into the game.

The point of a story in a game is to hook the player, to get them into the world.

Hawke losing his/her mother-I feel for Hawke because I lost my father to a surgery gone wrong.
The mage warden at the tower-I understand the concern there, because I would feel the same way if it were me coming ot my home to find it ravaged by demons.

Without that ability to connect the game's story to the player, the game has no story. Understand now?

The player does not have a personal connection to the story for the story to be well written and a good story. A good story is there to entertain  and at times to provoke thought.
I understand Frodo's (Lord of the Rings)  plight without having to experience it. A good story allows the reader to imaginebeing in the shoes of that person without actually having to experience it. You experience it through the eyes of that person. The character is not me I play and control the character.