895 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And what if choice x was canonized and developed into an awesome story you loved, one you loved just as much, if not more, than the story you saw the first time?

Would that not be enjoyable? Or would you still say "even though Bioware chose my choice and really devleoped it in a cool and meaningful way... their games suck! Because canon is evil."

I may end up wanting to try a different world (read choices that define it). IF a choice was canonized then it would be the same world every time I play, and that would get boring down the road.

Need more of an explanation?

I would want that too... but we won't be getting that. We'll be getting a game that ignores all of these different worlds, not a world defined by our choices.

You keep hopping from one foot to the other - if I say how nice it would be if a canon was set and choices were reflected, you say "What about other choices? You hate choice in video games!" 

Then, when I say that the import feature, by Bioware's on admittance, is impossible to really reflect world changing choices or multiple character personal choices, you say "Well, I want them to ignore all previous games choices, so it doesn't matter."

Either you care about the outcome of your choices in future games or you don't. Stamping your feet and saying "Imported saves give me my own personal world, a canon steals that away!" is just not true.

The import feature does its best to avoid the bullets shot by previous games' choices. A canon would actually follow a certain list of choices and take them to their next level, where we can see the people we met and influenced changed over time, instead of acting like we are in the same world but that world can't talk about anything ever mentioned in the previous game's world at all.

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And what if choice x was canonized and developed into an awesome story you loved, one you loved just as much, if not more, than the story you saw the first time?

Would that not be enjoyable? Or would you still say "even though Bioware chose my choice and really devleoped it in a cool and meaningful way... their games suck! Because canon is evil."

I may end up wanting to try a different world (read choices that define it). IF a choice was canonized then it would be the same world every time I play, and that would get boring down the road.

Need more of an explanation?

I would want that too... but we won't be getting that. We'll be getting a game that ignores all of these different worlds, not a world defined by our choices.

You keep hopping from one foot to the other - if I say how nice it would be if a canon was set and choices were reflected, you say "What about other choices? You hate choice in video games!" 

Then, when I say that the import feature, by Bioware's on admittance, is impossible to really reflect world changing choices or multiple character personal choices, you say "Well, I want them to ignore all previous games choices, so it doesn't matter."

Either you care about the outcome of your choices in future games or you don't. Stamping your feet and saying "Imported saves give me my own personal world, a canon steals that away!" is just not true.

The import feature does its best to avoid the bullets shot by previous games' choices. A canon would actually follow a certain list of choices and take them to their next level, where we can see the people we met and influenced changed over time, instead of acting like we are in the same world but that world can't talk about anything ever mentioned in the previous game's world at all.

SO you would not want them to da an indirect import system? Say like KotoR2 or the genesis comic? That is what i think you mean by they should establish canon. Because those still bind the hands of the writers into recognizing "Choices" made by past heroes.

The problem I have with Setting a canon is that it takes me out of the decision of what the hero made in the past/past heroes made.

IF bioware removed the import system they are using and replaced it with another way to have my choices in-game, I would be fine with it, but if there has to be a set canon for it, the BioWare cab forget trying to sell me another game again.

[draken-heart]

milena87 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

milena87 wrote...

But then I would question: if the most important thing is the choice itself why have an import system for the next game?

Our character in each game would still make his/her choices and we may or may not see the consequences of his/her actions in the game. Setting a canon for the next game would not prevent us from shaping our new character, but it would give the world of Thedas a chance to see the consequences to some of the choices that the Warden / Hawke / DA3's protagonist made.

I explained this in a previous post. A canon prevents me from creating juxtaposing Wardens and Hawkes.

Ok, let's say that we import a pro-mages Warden and a pro-templars Hawke, why should the protagonist of DA3 care? He/she won't see the world of Thedas changed by the actions of the two previous heroes (not in a significant way anyway), so why should they matter?

Each character we create works in the context given by the DA team: in terms of roleplaying a character, a game where no references are made to the previous choices (apart from a cameo or a comment here and there) would be a totally different experience from a game where we see the consequences of some of the choices we could have made?
I don't think so, as we would have to create new motivations for this character anyway and he/she would act in the world given to him/her.

I guess I just don't agree that a canon would limit roleplaying, especially because each DA game has a new protagonist, is set in another part of the world and in a different time frame.

Maybe, but those timeframes are close enough together that the effects could still be felt in those areas.

Templars in DA2: could show Kirkwall as the HQ for templars in the mage-templar war within the free marches.
Mages in DA2: Vice-versa of the templars.

This could easily be done with an indirect import system, Like genesis was for ME2. direct impotying could be a bit tougher, but could work. Canon blows this plan to the fade because you can only have one choice at a time, and the other is declared non-canon and thus, the results of that choice are not going to be in-game at all. So a canon my give the game a stronger story, but the results of choices like the King of Orzamar, Ruler of Ferelden, the Dark Ritual and the end of DA2 are forced on the player and the results of the other side of that debate are never discussed, unless you do the no canon and not go to those places at all, which would do more damage to the game that having imports would.

[NedPepper]

David Gaider wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
but I, Fast Jimmy and others will continue to be the flies buzzing in his ear whispering otherwise.

You appear to underestimate our ability to just ignore threads.

Which I will get back to, I suppose.

Hmph.  You know, the "remove the save import" threads, the two I've been in, have been civil and logical.  In fact, it's just people looking objectively at a function that they wanted to like and enjoy and seeing a major flaw in its implentation. 

Still, it doesn't  mean you guys aren't going to canonize things anyway, which you have, Leliana being the most obvious. And, I'm GLAD you are.  I'm not sure why you're being defensive when the truth is that most of is this argument as been about wanting to let you guys, the writers, have freedom to really cut loose without limitations.    I don't recall these threads being vicious or mean in any way.  Interesting response.

Then again, I've personally decided not to hang out here on a daily basis for a game that isn't going to be released for over a year.  The negativity in OTHER threads is just completely over the top.

[draken-heart]

nedpepper wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
but I, Fast Jimmy and others will continue to be the flies buzzing in his ear whispering otherwise.

You appear to underestimate our ability to just ignore threads.

Which I will get back to, I suppose.

Hmph.  You know, the "remove the save import" threads, the two I've been in, have been civil and logical.  In fact, it's just people looking objectively at a function that they wanted to like and enjoy and seeing a major flaw in its implentation. 

Still, it doesn't  mean you guys aren't going to canonize things anyway, which you have, Leliana being the most obvious. And, I'm GLAD you are.  I'm not sure why you're being defensive when the truth is that most of is this argument as been about wanting to let you guys, the writers, have freedom to really cut loose without limitations.    I don't recall these threads being vicious or mean in any way.  Interesting response.

Then again, I've personally decided not to hang out here on a daily basis for a game that isn't going to be released for over a year.  The negativity in OTHER threads is just completely over the top.

They are still sort of bound though. Sure they can do alot, but only within the bounds of the canon. IF Alistair is King of Ferelden, For example, They cannot do something that Involves Anora being queen, Unless she is starting a revolution.

SO, canon frees them to do more, But it also binds them according to what bounds they are allowed to do things in.

[Allan Schumacher]

nedpepper wrote...

Hmph.  You know, the "remove the save import" threads, the two I've been in, have been civil and logical.  In fact, it's just people looking objectively at a function that they wanted to like and enjoy and seeing a major flaw in its implentation.

Hence why were aren't too concerned with the likes of Fast Jimmy and Realmzmaster buzzing around in threads like these, as opposed to locking the thread down.

[NedPepper]

draken-heart wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
but I, Fast Jimmy and others will continue to be the flies buzzing in his ear whispering otherwise.

You appear to underestimate our ability to just ignore threads.

Which I will get back to, I suppose.

Hmph.  You know, the "remove the save import" threads, the two I've been in, have been civil and logical.  In fact, it's just people looking objectively at a function that they wanted to like and enjoy and seeing a major flaw in its implentation. 

Still, it doesn't  mean you guys aren't going to canonize things anyway, which you have, Leliana being the most obvious. And, I'm GLAD you are.  I'm not sure why you're being defensive when the truth is that most of is this argument as been about wanting to let you guys, the writers, have freedom to really cut loose without limitations.    I don't recall these threads being vicious or mean in any way.  Interesting response.

Then again, I've personally decided not to hang out here on a daily basis for a game that isn't going to be released for over a year.  The negativity in OTHER threads is just completely over the top.

They are still sort of bound though. Sure they can do alot, but only within the bounds of the canon. IF Alistair is King of Ferelden, For example, They cannot do something that Involves Anora being queen, Unless she is starting a revolution.

SO, canon frees them to do more, But it also binds them according to what bounds they are allowed to do things in.

We just go in circles, it seems. Are they going to spend that much time on content that is either/or proposition coming over from a different game?  There are ways to canonize Anora as well.  They could say the two are in a stressful marriage and both play a part in the future of Dragon Age.  It's whatever works best for the story they want to tell.  But I'm not sure why I'm arguing for this when the writing team doesn't seem to even care about this.  I see it benefiting the game.  I also think Gaider's work is better when he tells his story with a strong narrative.  But if he doesn't care about the issues that arise with Orzamaar, Alistar, the Ashes, future appearances from dead companions, the OGB....I guess it doesn't matter.  Kind of disheartening, really.  First time I've felt disheartened about the Dragon Age Franchise, but I'll get over it.

[NedPepper]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Hmph.  You know, the "remove the save import" threads, the two I've been in, have been civil and logical.  In fact, it's just people looking objectively at a function that they wanted to like and enjoy and seeing a major flaw in its implentation.

Hence why were aren't too concerned with the likes of Fast Jimmy and Realmzmaster buzzing around in threads like these, as opposed to locking the thread down.

Point taken.

[draken-heart]

EntropicAngel wrote...

milena87 wrote...

Ok, let's say that we import a pro-mages Warden and a pro-templars Hawke, why should the protagonist of DA3 care? He/she won't see the world of Thedas changed by the actions of the two previous heroes (not in a significant way anyway), so why should they matter?

Each character we create works in the context given by the DA team: in terms of roleplaying a character, a game where no references are made to the previous choices (apart from a cameo or a comment here and there) would be a totally different experience from a game where we see the consequences of some of the choices we could have made?
I don't think so, as we would have to create new motivations for this character anyway and he/she would act in the world given to him/her.

I guess I just don't agree that a canon would limit roleplaying, especially because each DA game has a new protagonist, is set in another part of the world and in a different time frame.

He doesn't have to care. He isn't a part of the equation.

The Warden and Hawke don't even have to care about each other. Simply their existing, opposites of each other, is the purpose of the exercise. Having a canon prevents that. And having an import enables it.

As I said to Jimmy, I don't need the game to show "consequences" to my character's personality. I just want the choice.

There is also the fact that none of the Choices had any impact in DA2 because DA2 did not take place in ferelden except for running away. DA:I may be different w/the consequences of our action in origins.

[Flurdt Vash]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Hmph.  You know, the "remove the save import" threads, the two I've been in, have been civil and logical.  In fact, it's just people looking objectively at a function that they wanted to like and enjoy and seeing a major flaw in its implentation.

Hence why were aren't too concerned with the likes of Fast Jimmy and Realmzmaster buzzing around in threads like these, as opposed to locking the thread down.

lol Epic Moderator swoops in  ..... but I thought Swooping was bad

[FirstCitizen800]

I'd suggest a choice regression based on the number 7, which has been shown to have significance to human memory. Budgeting and criteria could make it less, but if you committed to 7 things from the previous games influencing the DA3 experience, people would probably feel pretty immersed. 2 In the Beginning, 3 in the Middle, 2 near the end. The majority should always come from the last game, so at least 4 inflection points should be chosen from DA2, maybe 3 for DA1.

Obviously, that they'd be should be up to the writers, but if over the course of a 60-80 hr game, the player is made to think back 7 times, the illusion of continuity will be pretty strong.

Hell, just to keep things nice and easy, I'd say 7% of the game should be devoted to continuity. So, even if you didn't play a prequel, you'd be getting 93% of the quests related to the new story with the other 7% being continuity quests. Of course, no import starts could get this quest as well depending on what background they chose, but it'd probably be less meaningful to the new players but if the quests are solid on their own, no problem.

Remember, the rule of 7. 7 Influences, 7% of the game. I'd bet that the sweet spot.

Modifié par FirstCitizen800, 15 janvier 2013 - 03:59 .

[RepHope]

Throw out the save import? Brilliant, no don't try to work with it just throw it out!

[DragonMage95]

Here's an idea, if you don't like to save import then don't do it. I don't get why so many people complain about things they have the option to not do. I for one like save importing but if you don't like it don't do it, it's quite simple. No ones forcing you to use it.

[Celene II]

This game series would be 10 time less interesting without player choice importing to the next game.

They can work around the imports.

Having King Alistair in DA2 talking about the ball and chain Warden was more priceless then any fight in all of DA2

why remove it just to give some writers a break. Sounds lazy to me

[M2S SOLID JOSH]

draken-heart wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

milena87 wrote...

Ok, let's say that we import a pro-mages Warden and a pro-templars Hawke, why should the protagonist of DA3 care? He/she won't see the world of Thedas changed by the actions of the two previous heroes (not in a significant way anyway), so why should they matter?

Each character we create works in the context given by the DA team: in terms of roleplaying a character, a game where no references are made to the previous choices (apart from a cameo or a comment here and there) would be a totally different experience from a game where we see the consequences of some of the choices we could have made?
I don't think so, as we would have to create new motivations for this character anyway and he/she would act in the world given to him/her.

I guess I just don't agree that a canon would limit roleplaying, especially because each DA game has a new protagonist, is set in another part of the world and in a different time frame.

He doesn't have to care. He isn't a part of the equation.

The Warden and Hawke don't even have to care about each other. Simply their existing, opposites of each other, is the purpose of the exercise. Having a canon prevents that. And having an import enables it.

As I said to Jimmy, I don't need the game to show "consequences" to my character's personality. I just want the choice.

There is also the fact that none of the Choices had any impact in DA2 because DA2 did not take place in ferelden except for running away. DA:I may be different w/the consequences of our action in origins.

been following this convo for awhile and everytime i think of something to say draken says what im thinking:mellow:

[Twisted Path]

DomRod95 wrote...

Here's an idea, if you don't like to save import then don't do it. I don't get why so many people complain about things they have the option to not do. I for one like save importing but if you don't like it don't do it, it's quite simple. No ones forcing you to use it.

Uh. I think the point is that designing sequels around save import continuity seems to really diminish the quality of those sequels. One of the big complaints about DA2 was that your choices never seem to matter, everything plays out the same no matter what, and I think one of the reasons for that is that the writers wanted to desperately avoid another Leiliana situation.

You also have the issue in Mass Effect 3 of choices in previous games that were presented as big and world-changing amounting to a few changed lines of dialogue and cosmetic differences in the final game.

[wright1978]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I like save imports because they promote a feeling of continuity in the world. In all truth, it doesn't bother me that the previous protagonist's actions have little impact, but what little impact they do have reinforces the sense that this is the same universe I journeyed through before. That matters to me quite a lot. I expect impact from my current character's decisions, but I'm content that my previous character's decisions have largely only flavor effect.

Creating a canon would disappoint me and ruin the continuity of my world.

Agree completely. I love the flavor effect.

[TallonOverlord]

I for one hope the save importing comes back. I worked hard on my saved files in the last two games. Even if some choices didnt matter, it doesnt matter to me. I've set my dragon age universe up the way i wanted it. I want to continue to see my choices being reflected. Even if it was something stupid as fordging star fang, i'd like to see my sword appear again someday and be able to be obtained. I like my world as it is. prehapse a happy medium would be to allow a comic or choice option for those who want it and let the rest of us have our save imports. I know the mass effect 2 comic i was really not a fan of. It didnt let you have the option of doing mini side mission things like finding the prothean data disks or scanning the keepers. This bothered me as i liked doing those and even if it was a minor detail it was nice to have my work reflected in the games.

[Sideria]

Save the save imports
It's the Bioware touch. It's this very feature wich make me the a fan. Because of this, I love all Bioware's games.
Hell, I even want a ebook version of the novels where I can import my saves and the story incorporate my choices.

[TallonOverlord]

Sideria wrote...

Save the save imports
It's the Bioware touch. It's this very feature wich make me the a fan. Because of this, I love all Bioware's games.
Hell, I even want a ebook version of the novels where I can import my saves and the story incorporate my choices.

like an interactive choose your own adventure? i love it.

[DragonMage95]

Twisted Path wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

Here's an idea, if you don't like to save import then don't do it. I don't get why so many people complain about things they have the option to not do. I for one like save importing but if you don't like it don't do it, it's quite simple. No ones forcing you to use it.

Uh. I think the point is that designing sequels around save import continuity seems to really diminish the quality of those sequels. One of the big complaints about DA2 was that your choices never seem to matter, everything plays out the same no matter what, and I think one of the reasons for that is that the writers wanted to desperately avoid another Leiliana situation.

You also have the issue in Mass Effect 3 of choices in previous games that were presented as big and world-changing amounting to a few changed lines of dialogue and cosmetic differences in the final game.

 I get that but keep in mind sometimes its a matter of technology that needs to be fixed. It does need to be worked on but that doesnt mean we should just rid if of it because someone finds it pointless. My previous statement was kind of wrong but I stand by it. It is really irritating when I see people complain about a part of a game that they can avoid. It may seem useless to some but to others it is fine. 

[Addai]

This has probably been suggested already, but I would prefer if they just let you check boxes than try to rely on import flags working correctly. With a few ready-made templates as they had in DA2, for people who don't want to work that hard.

[Realmzmaster]

DomRod95 wrote...

Twisted Path wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

Here's an idea, if you don't like to save import then don't do it. I don't get why so many people complain about things they have the option to not do. I for one like save importing but if you don't like it don't do it, it's quite simple. No ones forcing you to use it.

Uh. I think the point is that designing sequels around save import continuity seems to really diminish the quality of those sequels. One of the big complaints about DA2 was that your choices never seem to matter, everything plays out the same no matter what, and I think one of the reasons for that is that the writers wanted to desperately avoid another Leiliana situation.

You also have the issue in Mass Effect 3 of choices in previous games that were presented as big and world-changing amounting to a few changed lines of dialogue and cosmetic differences in the final game.

 I get that but keep in mind sometimes its a matter of technology that needs to be fixed. It does need to be worked on but that doesnt mean we should just rid if of it because someone finds it pointless. My previous statement was kind of wrong but I stand by it. It is really irritating when I see people complain about a part of a game that they can avoid. It may seem useless to some but to others it is fine. 

Itr has zero to do with the technology.   For example there is no meaningful way to address Morrigan and the OGB if two out of the three choices in DAO had nothing to do with the DR. The best that can be hope for is a side  quest or a mention in a codex about it. That limits what the writers can explore unless the writers simply ignore the other two choices and write Morrigan and the OGB into the story. That has nothing to do with technology. 
Many members of the forum howled about Leliana being alive in DA2 even when many killed her in DAO. Basically Bioware ignored their choice.

What about the Dwarven King unless Bioware makes two different quests depending on the choice made at best once again you have only a mention in the codex or a small side quest nothing major. 

It also comes down to resources. Bioware would have to write two different questlines for major incorporation of the Dwarven king choice. I would make no sense to have a questline with only a name change to indicate the who is king. Both kings ruled differently. So now you double the amount of resorces necessary. The same can be said for the Anvil of the Void. The save import limits the stories that can be told

[LobselVith8]

draken-heart wrote...

There is also the fact that none of the Choices had any impact in DA2 because DA2 did not take place in ferelden except for running away. DA:I may be different w/the consequences of our action in origins.

That was an issue for me when some of those choices should matter, even though Dragon Age II took place in Kirkwall. When my Hero of Ferelden asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence, shouldn't that be a factor for apostate Hawke or Bethany? With a mage as the new Arl of Amaranthine, shouldn't that matter to them? Wouldn't mages be fleeing to Ferelden in droves?

I think the problem for some people is that there only seem to be incidental acknowledgements with the import system; it doesn't feel like I'm really importing the world my Surana Warden helped shape into Dragon Age II. Even though the Dalish are given the Hinterlands if the Dalish Warden asked for a homeland for his people (and Marethari is specifically informed about this in the US Ending), Marethari and her clan are in Sundermount for seven years, as though the Dalish Boon doesn't matter.