895 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Agreed, as pure usual, with Realmzmaster on this subject.

The Save Import doesn't represent Bioware respecting your previous choice from other games... it represents KILLING your previous choices on the altar of a false, weak illusion.

Did anyone get done with DA:O and see the outcomes of Harrowmont and Bhelen, how they each became kings with serious baggage and issues with their respective kingdoms, and think... "wow, that was great. I would love if they continued this plot line via small fetch quest dealing with some random NPC who we have never met, but is supposedly related to one of them!"

No, of course not. You'd want to see how their rule, with or without the Anvil, affected Dwarven culture. You'd like to see if Bhelen removing the restrictions on the casteless makes life any better, or if it wound up creating a whole host of new problems. You'd like to see if saving the Anvil and helping the dwarves recover lost thaigs has improved their outlook against their struggle against the darkspawn, or how the destruction of it has led to the darkspawn etching away more of their shattered empire. None of that is addressed in the tiny, small sidequest we got if we name Bhelen king (and of course nothing was addressed if we named Harrowmont).

In addition, the dwarves SHOULD play a large role in the upcoming game. After all, you have Mages and Templars on the verge of war, the two biggest consumers of lyrium in the world. And, who is the primary supplier of lyrium? That's right - the dwarves. For the dwarves to play no part at all in the world or to bear no mention would be silly, but its insanely likely because of the Save Import. Bioware won't commit to creating large swaths of custom content (by their own admission), so here's what will happen - a cameo from the Dwarven king, or a change in dialogue difference with a minor variation, all railroading and hand waving back to the same world state, regardless. And that's best case scenario. Worst case scenario is that we never hear about the dwarves again.


Now... let's look at what would happen if Bioware got rid of the Save Import, and they set a canon of what happened, say that the Anvil was preserved and Bhelen was king. This would lead to the dwarves not only controlling the lyrium supply, but also having one of the most formidable armies available. They would be dictating terms to the surfacers and charging them through the nose, even possibly making concessions to have prisoners of war from either side be sent to the Deep Roads to add more golems to the growing army. It could have a huge impact.

Conversely, let's look instead at a canon of Harrowmont and the Anvil destroyed. By enforcing the strict caste society and not having the might of the golem armies, coupled by Harrowmont's own weakening grip on the kingdom, the darkspawn have nearly overrun Orzammar. Infighting and lack of armies has made the Dwarves weak, so it becomes a race for either the Mages or Templars to declare a Exalted March and conquer the dwarven kingdom, in order to secure the lyrium trade.

Do you see how different those two world would be? And how they can smoothly and logically tie into the story at hand for the third game?



But we won't get that. We'll get the same outcome, dressed up in a cosmetically different NPC suit, with a tweak of recorded dialogue. Because those two stories are too hard to tell in detail for one group who made X decision and another group who made Y decision.

The Save Import KILLS the importance of your choices. It makes your history something Bioware has to run away from, not something it respects. They have to do a magic tap dancing jig every time they want to bring the consequence of one these back in... and that's not even including the possibility of making NEW choices, which will need to be imported into a future game. Its no wonder that DA2's choices were nearly non-existent - who would want to add more kindling to this insane import funeral pyre?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 janvier 2013 - 01:18 .

[Malanek]

Great post FastJimmy. Seeing a great story line from one possible future relating to a decision you may have made is better at providing a link to the previous story than any number of bad ones or not seeing any at all.

[Dragoonlordz]

I do not think they need to remove save import and doing so would greatly decrease my enjoyment of their games. Lets take TW2 as example (flameshield up), the plot branching and and choices vs consequences in that game are truly amazing and I consider vastly superior to Biowares variation however the import function to carry across choices in TW2 were vastly inferior to Bioware's impact of import.

Ideally I would like best of both worlds but I kind of am slightly a realist in that I know I can ask for the world and for them to reach for the stars and I see nothing wrong with me doing so but I also know and respect that they will probably never be able to reach those heights so I hold nothing against them when fails to do so.

One thing I will say is that there should be a limitation on how many games you import from and probably should remain at three because the quanitity of choices that could carry over becomes (imho) unrealistic for Bioware to handle and I considered ME trilogy beginning personally to show signs of losing control on this element because of the quantity of choices allowed between three games. I guess the other solution is being far more picky about what choices should impact a following game so a lot of the minor ones do not cause conflict.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 janvier 2013 - 01:34 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I do not think they need to remove save import and doing so would greatly decrease my enjoyment of their games. Lets take TW2 as example (flameshield up), the plot branching and and choices vs consequences in that game are truly amazing and I consider vastly superior to Biowares variation however the import function to carry across choices in TW2 were vastly inferior to Bioware's impact of import.

 

I think The Witcher series will have a really telling time to show their import vision with TW3, given the wildly divergent choice in TW2 and how things could play out in the endgame of TW2. 

Ideally I would like best of both worlds but I kind of am slightly a realist in that I know I can ask for the world and for them to reach for the stars and I see nothing wrong with me doing so but I also know and respect that they will probably never be able to reach those heights so I hold nothing against them when fails to do so.

To be fair, I have heard that the Walking Dead does a pretty excellent job at this. I'm set to play it here this week, so I may retract that statement, but they do a good job of giving you branching in-game choices that are reflected nicely in future installments.

In defense, that is an episodic type of game, where small amounts of content are put together at a time. But on the other hand, TWD games have been in development about as long as DA3 now. And they are on episode 6, which I think, in gameplay terms, consists of more playtime than my average DA2 playthrough was. By quite a bit, I might add.

One thing I will say is that there should be a limitation on how many games you import from and probably should remain at three because the quanitity of choices that could carry over becomes (imho) unrealistic for Bioware to handle and I considered ME trilogy beginning personally to show signs of losing control on this element because of the quantity of choices allowed between three games. I guess the other solution is being far more picky about what choices should impact a following game so a lot of the minor ones do not cause conflict.

So... in DA4, they 'll resolve the OGB plot by making the Dark Ritual canon? And naming Allistair king? And having the dwarven king be Bhelen and the Anvil preserved, with the Urn of Sacred Ashed defiled and the Warden a male human noble who romanced Leliana?

Yeah... setting canon three games down the line or one won't stop the backlash on any of that.

[Dragoonlordz]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So... in DA4, they 'll resolve the OGB plot by making the Dark Ritual canon? And naming Allistair king? And having the dwarven king be Bhelen and the Anvil preserved, with the Urn of Sacred Ashed defiled and the Warden a male human noble who romanced Leliana?

Yeah... setting canon three games down the line or one won't stop the backlash on any of that.

None of those things matter if none of them play a part in the story of that following game. There would be no need to mention them or have them impact the story unless the story involves those elements. They can be left unresolved or they can be resolved in a later game or DLC but not all of them are required to be resolved in DA3 (if even any of those ones).

The only thing that matters is that the ones they do choose to impact the story in a following game do stay true to a players experience or choice and I know they have failed to do so in the past but like DG said, they are constantly trying to improve this aspect so problems happen less or not at all the conflict between what you chose and what occurs in following title.

I would rather have some improvement to my experience through import than no import at all. My only concern is how many choices they will be able to keep track of in the long run without running into major issues with conflicts like I felt ME trilogy was beginning to show signs of having difficulty coping. The potential solution is not to remove imports but be more selective about which ones are carried over and making sure those that are are done well without conflict.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 janvier 2013 - 01:58 .

[Herky]

NO, DON'T!

[CrystaJ]

The option to pick a pre-determined storyline before the game started was fine; I actually used those first, because I hadn't completed DAO before I started on DA 2. I played enough that I had a general idea of where I was gonna end up, though.

Modifié par CrystaJ, 16 janvier 2013 - 02:19 .

[Isaidlunch]

I doubt we would have been given choices like Tuchanka and Rannoch (...and the ending) in ME3 if importing into ME4 had been a priority.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Why won't this thread die?

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...
snip

But how, exactly, does it link worlds? Just because it says it is?

Is the power of the Save Import in the fact that Bioware says it exists?


If you were a Dwarven casteless Warden who hardened Allistair, what about the Save Import links that world for you? What did it bring to the table in DA2 that made it worthwhile? What do you hope for it to bring to the table in DA3 that will connect your worlds?

And, furthermore, if your Warden and your Hawke exist in different worlds, how will DA3 import the choices you made in both games into one? At some point, there must be a middle-point reached, where every character you had is in the past. But if everything a prior character touched is off limits to make an in-depth plot about, then what becomes of the story? Of the lore?


I outlined in my above post (and many other times in this necro'd thread) situations where the choices from a previous story could have a serious impact on the story of the next game. That my exact storyline will never materialize is totally trivial. The problem is that my story ideas COULD NEVER HAPPEN. Not because Bioware couldn't write it (they could) and not because its not something the game format couldn't support (it could). Its simply because the imported choices could possibly result in someone's game world being disturbed.

So is the only way your previous game worlds connected, as you stated, based solely on the fact that, to date, none of your choices have been mentioned in enough detail to mess it up? What if, then, you had made a choice like killing Leliana? Would you world feel as connected then? Would it feel as linked if you had gone with Morrigan through the Eluvian in Witch Hunt, then had Allistair say you were in Denerim not long after? Would you feel that continuity if neither Anders nor Justice had survied in Awakening, but still somehow survived and were bonded together in DA2?

The history of retcons where canon has been set is already before us. That Bioware tries not to do it is obvious, but the chances of never doing it are astronomical.

So, at what point does the Import fail to connect your worlds by the simple act of ommission, and instead become a vestigial artifact who's only outcome is to limit the types of stories and content that can be told?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 janvier 2013 - 02:28 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Kazanth wrote...

I doubt we would have been given choices like Tuchanka and Rannoch (...and the ending) in ME3 if importing into ME4 had been a priority.

Way off topic, considering we are now in ME territory, but... really? You think the options of the genophage and the Geth/Quarian War scorched the earth of the Import? Not... say... the three choices at the end that would result in such drastically different universe states that there is no coheisve way possible to make a game set afterwards?

The Krogan and who rules over Rannoch are pittances before the Destroy/Control/Synthesis options. Those effect the entire galaxy, the others affect mere planets.

[Brockololly]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Did anyone get done with DA:O and see the outcomes of Harrowmont and Bhelen, how they each became kings with serious baggage and issues with their respective kingdoms, and think... "wow, that was great. I would love if they continued this plot line via small fetch quest dealing with some random NPC who we have never met, but is supposedly related to one of them!"

Depends on the story being told in subsequent games. If there isn't any need to precisely pin down who the dwarf king in in Orzammar post DA:O, then don't. Or do it in a low cost way. DA2 didn't need much in the way of the Dwarfs. I was fine with a throwaway cameo quest that reminded me that "Yup, I made [Harrowmont/Bhelen] King in Origins."

Fast Jimmy wrote...
No, of course not. You'd want to see how their rule, with or without the Anvil, affected Dwarven culture. You'd like to see if Bhelen removing the restrictions on the casteless makes life any better, or if it wound up creating a whole host of new problems. You'd like to see if saving the Anvil and helping the dwarves recover lost thaigs has improved their outlook against their struggle against the darkspawn, or how the destruction of it has led to the darkspawn etching away more of their shattered empire. None of that is addressed in the tiny, small sidequest we got if we name Bhelen king (and of course nothing was addressed if we named Harrowmont).

Sure all of that is interesting, if the game we're playing in the future needs to address all of that Dwarven content. Yes, if in DA3 we need to go back to Orzammar or something, I'd expect at least some of that sort of stuff to come up. But that is completely contingent on whether the story needs to go there.

If they do end up needing to deal with the Dwarves that way and instead handwave all of your choices away or awkwardly tiptoe around what choices you made, thats annoying. But its impossible to be reactive to every little thing with meaningful consequences as much as I'd like to see them. The key is hitting a sweet spot- have maybe 1-3 plot points be genuinely significant, big deals that offer unique, divergent content based on your import state. Other choices that maybe aren't highlighted can still be acknowledged even if its in a pure text newspaper or book or variable NPC chatter. And then have some smaller amount of your choices basically reset to a common state no matter what you chose. Having that sort of a mix of how they deal with consequences from the import would be best, IMO.

Fast Jimmy wrote...
In addition, the dwarves SHOULD play a large role in the upcoming game. After all, you have Mages and Templars on the verge of war, the two biggest consumers of lyrium in the world. And, who is the primary supplier of lyrium? That's right - the dwarves. For the dwarves to play no part at all in the world or to bear no mention would be silly, but its insanely likely because of the Save Import. Bioware won't commit to creating large swaths of custom content (by their own admission), so here's what will happen - a cameo from the Dwarven king, or a change in dialogue difference with a minor variation, all railroading and hand waving back to the same world state, regardless. And that's best case scenario. Worst case scenario is that we never hear about the dwarves again.

Maybe, probably... We just don't know the story yet. Yes, it would seem the Dwarves should probably factor into things. But then again, maybe it'll be the Kal Sharok dwarves, who we know nothing about and have apparently walled themselves off?

Fast Jimmy wrote...
The Save Import KILLS the importance of your choices. It makes your history something Bioware has to run away from, not something it respects. They have to do a magic tap dancing jig every time they want to bring the consequence of one these back in... and that's not even including the possibility of making NEW choices, which will need to be imported into a future game. Its no wonder that DA2's choices were nearly non-existent - who would want to add more kindling to this insane import funeral pyre?

And simply setting canon wouldn't kill the importance of your choices either? If I chose to make Harrowmont King and destroy the anvil, yet BioWare Canon stated Bhelen was King and the Anvil was saved, my choices would be saved? No. Granted, I understand your point in that setting a canon can allow for more directly dealing with consequences of past actions, even if by setting a canon those choices may not have been the ones the player made.

Like I said above, you have more and more games doing genuinely unique and divergent content, whether its The Witcher 2 or Alpha Protocol. Especially given that DA is supposedly set with a new PC in every game, the Save Import hooks from game to game need not be anything huge either. They've given themselves plenty of leeway to ignore past developments in past games simply by geographically distancing themselves from the areas those events took place in. I'd  just be content if they limited Save Import content to 1-3 meaningfully big plot choices from a previous game affecting the new game in a fully fleshed out way. Leave the rest to minor shout outs via text or minor NPC remarks, like people gossiping in a tavern or something.

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I think The Witcher series will have a really telling time to show their  import vision with TW3, given the wildly divergent choice in TW2 and how things could play out in the endgame of TW2.

I think The Witcher is a little different since Geralt is more of an established character than any recent BioWare PC. So they have more freedom to handwave certain choices if they want.

And beyond that, they very easily could simply move Geralt geographically for The Witcher 3, such that any big choices and events from The Wicther 2 could be little references or throwaway background chatter and not necessarily big, huge deals.

Fast Jimmy wrote...
To be fair, I have heard that the Walking Dead does a pretty  excellent job at this. I'm set to play it here this week, so I may  retract that statement, but they do a good job of giving you branching  in-game choices that are reflected nicely in future installments.

In defense, that is an episodic type of game, where small amounts of  content are put together at a time. But on the other hand, TWD games  have been in development about as long as DA3 now. And they are on  episode 6, which I think, in gameplay terms, consists of more playtime  than my average DA2 playthrough was. By quite a bit, I might add.

Not entirely. TWD really doesn't have much in the way of a genuinely divergent narrative. Its actually quite linear and set in stone outside of a couple instances in the beginning and end. Where TWD excels is in offering up lots of little choices and reactive, unique content that plays off of those little choices that flavor your experience such that it offers a convincing illusion of choice.

Modifié par Brockololly, 16 janvier 2013 - 02:34 .

[Dragoonlordz]

@EntropicAngel

Imports are fundamentally linking the "consequences" of your choices between games. Without consequences all you have is canon and headcanon. So import is at it's most basic level about consequences.

While I disagree with you about your interpretation of the meaning and importance of that word and there being zero logic to having import without reliance on consequences, I do agree with you in having an import is important to me too in order to increase my enjoyment of multiple games that span the same universe.

[Isaidlunch]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Kazanth wrote...

I doubt
we would have been given choices like Tuchanka and Rannoch (...and the
ending) in ME3 if importing into ME4 had been a priority.

Way
off topic, considering we are now in ME territory, but... really? You
think the options of the genophage and the Geth/Quarian War scorched the
earth of the Import? Not... say... the three choices at the end that
would result in such drastically different universe states that there is
no coheisve way possible to make a game set afterwards?

The
Krogan and who rules over Rannoch are pittances before the
Destroy/Control/Synthesis options. Those effect the entire galaxy, the
others affect mere planets.

I wasn't willing to mention the ending at all since almost everyone on this forumassociates it with bad and I'm sure they wouldn't mind if it had been removed in favor of some streamlined ending anyway. Most people consider Tuchanka and Rannoch the high points of the game and the impact of the choices played a large part in it. That was my point.

Filament wrote...

 So the benefit of not having to worry
about save importing is that we get magnificent choices like the ones at
the end of ME3, huh? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

No offense, but this is exactly why I didn't want to include the ending as an example.

Modifié par Kazanth, 16 janvier 2013 - 02:38 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Filament wrote...

 So the benefit of not having to worry about save importing is that we get magnificent choices like the ones at the end of ME3, huh? 

The benefit of not having the Save Import means there gets to BE an ME4, DESPITE the terrible choices presented at the end of it.

Casey and other ME devs have already begun laying the foundation for the retcon extravaganza that will be ME4. Statements to that effect have already started coming out and I'm sure the game isn't even close being out of pre-production, let alone starting the execution stages of development. Why do you think they are asking it things should be a prequel or a sequel? Most everyone is going to say a sequel because they want to see what happens next. So when the devs come out and say "well, we're going to do a sequel, like you asked... but we're going to use a canon Destroy ending" they can point right back to the fans and say "we're just doing what you wanted!

If you ever want to see another Mass Effect game that isn't a prequel (at this point, I personally don't), then you should read the posts I've made in this thread and start asking yourself some really serious questions about what the Save Import does for your gaming experience. Because if its the end-all-be-all for you, you may as well just give up on the ME series.

[DragonMage95]

Realmzmaster wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

Twisted Path wrote...

DomRod95 wrote...

Here's an idea, if you don't like to save import then don't do it. I don't get why so many people complain about things they have the option to not do. I for one like save importing but if you don't like it don't do it, it's quite simple. No ones forcing you to use it.

Uh. I think the point is that designing sequels around save import continuity seems to really diminish the quality of those sequels. One of the big complaints about DA2 was that your choices never seem to matter, everything plays out the same no matter what, and I think one of the reasons for that is that the writers wanted to desperately avoid another Leiliana situation.

You also have the issue in Mass Effect 3 of choices in previous games that were presented as big and world-changing amounting to a few changed lines of dialogue and cosmetic differences in the final game.

 I get that but keep in mind sometimes its a matter of technology that needs to be fixed. It does need to be worked on but that doesnt mean we should just rid if of it because someone finds it pointless. My previous statement was kind of wrong but I stand by it. It is really irritating when I see people complain about a part of a game that they can avoid. It may seem useless to some but to others it is fine. 

Itr has zero to do with the technology.   For example there is no meaningful way to address Morrigan and the OGB if two out of the three choices in DAO had nothing to do with the DR. The best that can be hope for is a side  quest or a mention in a codex about it. That limits what the writers can explore unless the writers simply ignore the other two choices and write Morrigan and the OGB into the story. That has nothing to do with technology. 
Many members of the forum howled about Leliana being alive in DA2 even when many killed her in DAO. Basically Bioware ignored their choice.

What about the Dwarven King unless Bioware makes two different quests depending on the choice made at best once again you have only a mention in the codex or a small side quest nothing major. 

It also comes down to resources. Bioware would have to write two different questlines for major incorporation of the Dwarven king choice. I would make no sense to have a questline with only a name change to indicate the who is king. Both kings ruled differently. So now you double the amount of resorces necessary. The same can be said for the Anvil of the Void. The save import limits the stories that can be told

I dont think youre getting why I said new tech can fix the problem. I believe that the current technology limits what the writers can do with the time they have. Technology in gaming has limits and those limits affect everything. i think that the reason they are taking away choices you make and such is because they dont have the time to meaningfully address some of the major or minor choices you made because of the limits they have and the time limits they have as well. The limits tech has puts a limit on the things that get put in the game, im sure the writers didnt want to throw your choices away, im sure they want to address your choices but if they dont have the time to do that theyre just going to throw in what they want. For example, if theres a limit to memory on the game they arent going to address an Old God Baby that could essentially take up space that they need to use for the plot as a whole. What im saying might sound idiotic but i'm trying to look at the bigger picture. Save import can limit the stories being told but im sure the stories wouldnt be limited if something like more space and more time were available to the writers.I seriously doubt that they want to limit your story purposely, i think its a matter of what they have available and how much they can fit into a game, hence the reason why I listed technology as a possible problem with the way save import is handled.

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The fact that it IS a save import links it, as I say there ^. The only thing it brings to the table is a persistent world--but I value that persistent world highly.

That's all fine and good. LOL But as I said... there is a cost to the imports. A narrative costs. It makes everything we touch practically untouchable for future games. Don't get too attached to any character, they likely won't make it into DA4. Don't get too excited about any plot lines, they will be cauterized to prevent anyone's imports from being affected. Don't expect lots of wildly divergent outcomes during any future DA games... they either aren't going to offer them or they won't ever follow through with them, at which point... what was the point?

I think you misunderstood me, I said if there is NO save import then they exist in different worlds.

You raise an interesting point with the second part of the sentence, but I believe it could be accomplished by keeping the character's actions mainly personal. Like ME, for instance. Shepard does a lot over the course of the games, but he doesn't really change the basic conditions of very many places outside of the main plot. The Citadel is the same. Illium is the same. Noveria is the same. Thuchanka is NOT the same, what with the cure, but this is something that can be easily solved by having another scientist find the cure (Mordin isn't the galaxy's only scientist, after all, and once a discovery is made, it occurs quickly in other places).

Stuff like freeing the entire Circle? Changing the elven situation (I think that's a DA:O boon)? That's too big. IMO.

 

And that's a problem. A piece of story is "too big." Which means what side we choose in the Mage/Templar War won't matter. Its too big if one side wins or loses. So we'll be railroaded. If the Qunari invade in DA4, we won't have the option of siding with them, or even deciding who we side with in fighting them. Too big. If Morrigan and Flemeth offer us a choice and try and get us to join their side with consequences for either one... too big. If the Dalish unite under a banner and create their own nation? Too big. If the dwarves face real extinction after a millenia of slipping more and more ground to the darkspawn? Too big/

When does ANY choice outside of something purely cosmetic become too big? When does the option to write a storyline become less of a consideration because of the possible choices that came before it? It makes every event uncontrollable, unchangeable, unrevocable. If the Qunari invade, they will always win, or always lose. If there is a Mage/Templar War, the outcome is going to be the same, no matter how much support you throw to one side versus the other. 

Don't you see? Once choice becomes too big, then it becomes NO choice. One of my chief complaints about DA2. It becomes a linear narrative with three conversation tones and virtual romances.

You make good points here, but before I respond I would like to say that my first Warden, and my second for that matter, both went with Morrigan through the Eluvian. And I must have either not noticed Alistair's statements, or simply brushed it off when i heard it, because I don't remember him saying that.

Here is the link. Since Witch Hunt does not import any flags, Allistair will always say this. EDIT: Unless you are married to him or completed the Ultimate Sacrifice.

You make good points, and to them I say, I don't know. I don't think there's a hard and fast line for that. i think that's something everyone must decide for themselves.

For example, what I said there ^ about the GW, Morr, and alistair. It evidently did not bother me enough for me to even remember it. But it clearly bothered you enough for you to remember it. So I think this is a subjective point.

It did not bother me, actually. I never bought Witch Hunt (it goes against my DLC policies, my other little fun crusade on the BSN here ). But when I go to bat against something, I always make sure to find all the gaps in the armor. This one being one of them.




The question every supporter of the Save Import should ask is simply this: am I content with Bioware simply not mentioning any of my past choices or decisions? If not, then to what level do I want them to acknowledge it? Keeping the very real and hard fact that if they don't mention it, in some way shape or form, then that choice and all corresponding facets of the game world that accompany that choice, are gone forever. 

Bioware plans to keep leaping from one geographic point to the next. Which is good and fun and keeps the lore going. Not a problem. But it is going to run away from all the choices we make and all the character interactions and possible stories. So if they plan on keeping the Save Import, the ONLY time you will be able to say "I can't wait to see what happens  because of <blank> choice" will be if you are planning on writing a fan fiction. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 janvier 2013 - 03:28 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Ah, Brock. We seem to be coming down on the opposite sides of arguments here recently! Quite unfortunate.

Brockololly wrote...

Depends on the story being told in subsequent games. If there isn't any need to precisely pin down who the dwarf king in in Orzammar post DA:O, then don't. Or do it in a low cost way. DA2 didn't need much in the way of the Dwarfs. I was fine with a throwaway cameo quest that reminded me that "Yup, I made [Harrowmont/Bhelen] King in Origins."

But are you fine with that "throwaway" at the cost of never getting a deep answer to what happens to the dwarves? That's a real possibility, given the track record of what we've seen with the Import.

 Sure all of that is interesting, if the game we're playing in the future needs to address all of that Dwarven content. Yes, if in DA3 we need to go back to Orzammar or something, I'd expect at least some of that sort of stuff to come up. But that is completely contingent on whether the story needs to go there.

If they do end up needing to deal with the Dwarves that way and instead handwave all of your choices away or awkwardly tiptoe around what choices you made, thats annoying.

It is annoying, yes. But the cost of the Imports is JUST THAT... its an annoyance. Not just for the player but for (more importantly) Bioware. If the writers have a really amazing idea for a story that can be handled by the current technology and scope without much issue, but the reason why it is shot down is the Save Import, then that is a problem. If they say "some people won't have that game state, so its not worth the time to take to make it, despite how good your story idea is" then something is very broken.

But its impossible to be reactive to every little thing with meaningful consequences as much as I'd like to see them. The key is hitting a sweet spot- have maybe 1-3 plot points be genuinely significant, big deals that offer unique, divergent content based on your import state. Other choices that maybe aren't highlighted can still be acknowledged even if its in a pure text newspaper or book or variable NPC chatter. And then have some smaller amount of your choices basically reset to a common state no matter what you chose. Having that sort of a mix of how they deal with consequences from the import would be best, IMO.

Its not impossible if you have a canon. Fallout has taken a bunch of seemingly small events and turned them into huge plot devices in future games. Harold, a ghoul companion who is pretty worthless in combat and not much use (so that not many people even recruited him or kept him around long) is considered a canon recruit, and that he "died" in a certain area of the game that was not scripted in the game at all. Yet because he was canonly recruited and was shot down in an area where they had mutagenic serum around, he appeared in the third Fallout game as a living forest. If you don't know what I'm talking about, that sounds absolutely crazy, but it was an AWESOME series of quests and characters that, if Bethesda had a Save Import system, would not have been budgeted because of the ludicrous nature of those flags/game states lining up to justify creating it.

Maybe, probably... We just don't know the story yet. Yes, it would seem the Dwarves should probably factor into things. But then again, maybe it'll be the Kal Sharok dwarves, who we know nothing about and have apparently walled themselves off?

I've thought of this too, but you're missing the point. Can Bioware work around this? Sure. Despite the fact that lyrium mining and refinement would have been no concern to the Kal Sharok dwarves, so that the only real source of refined lyrium would be Orzammar... it doesn't matter. The fact that Bioware DOES have to work around it is a problem. If you can't do something because of the Save Import feature, that is a cost. A cost of creativity, of narrative license, of good gaming. If the cost was worth it to me, I wouldn't mind. But its not. And I'd like to think many people would come to that same realization if they sat down and thought about "what does the Save Import do? Not just FOR me... but AGAINST me, as well?"

And simply setting canon wouldn't kill the importance of your choices either? If I chose to make Harrowmont King and destroy the anvil, yet BioWare Canon stated Bhelen was King and the Anvil was saved, my choices would be saved? No. Granted, I understand your point in that setting a canon can allow for more directly dealing with consequences of past actions, even if by setting a canon those choices may not have been the ones the player made.

Sacrificing choice is going to happen either way. Either Save Imports don't do it well, or a canon doesn't do it at all.

But the difference is - a canon choice lets the writers do anything they want. They can make any story, any quest, any choice play out in any fashion they please. A Save Import prevents that. You only have limited options. You can only go limited places. You can only interact with limited people. Sure, its a big world and there's plenty to explore... but again, that's not the point. If you say "you can't do X because of Y" then Y better have more value than X. Does the Save Import have more value than the freedom to reference past events at will? To connect stories from one game to the next? To have a narrative that evolves and reveals more and more each game? Or is it better to have each plot line cut off in one game?

Like I said above, you have more and more games doing genuinely unique and divergent content, whether its The Witcher 2 or Alpha Protocol. Especially given that DA is supposedly set with a new PC in every game, the Save Import hooks from game to game need not be anything huge either. They've given themselves plenty of leeway to ignore past developments in past games simply by geographically distancing themselves from the areas those events took place in. I'd  just be content if they limited Save Import content to 1-3 meaningfully big plot choices from a previous game affecting the new game in a fully fleshed out way. Leave the rest to minor shout outs via text or minor NPC remarks, like people gossiping in a tavern or something.

 

Back when this thread was originally alive, I conceded to this idea. Its doable, it offers choice and it cleans out the clutter. However, I made sure I emphasized that romance options would likely not make the Top 3 choices. Your class would likely not be on the Top 3. Your gender would not be on the Top 3.

Suddenly, people said we'd need a lot more than 3, as THOSE were the most important things to them and I was foolish for concerning myself with actual plot choices. How silly of me.

Its easy to say "3 choices are all we'll cover" but realize that you're cutting the Save Import choices to the bone and playing favorites. I wouldn't want to be Bioware if they decide to do it. Better to cut all imports and hear a general outcry than to preserve some things and destory others. THAT will result in making true enemies.

I think The Witcher is a little different since Geralt is more of an established character than any recent BioWare PC. So they have more freedom to handwave certain choices if they want.

And beyond that, they very easily could simply move Geralt geographically for The Witcher 3, such that any big choices and events from The Wicther 2 could be little references or throwaway background chatter and not necessarily big, huge deals. 

I'll defer to your knowledge, I haven't played TW or TW2.

Not entirely. TWD really doesn't have much in the way of a genuinely divergent narrative. Its actually quite linear and set in stone outside of a couple instances in the beginning and end. Where TWD excels is in offering up lots of little choices and reactive, unique content that plays off of those little choices that flavor your experience such that it offers a convincing illusion of choice.

And maybe that's the beauty of the game - it never reached out too far. Again, I haven't played it, I'm only basing it off of feedback I've heard from others. But it never offered a cure for zombification (I'd assume) or had the option of launching a nuclear weapon to clear out a horde. Keeping choices focused on small, personal efforts is a more suitable environment for such a mechanic, rather than being a world-traveling hero who is involved in Big Events and makes Big Choices. Your hero changes the world... but the world does not change with your hero. At least, not as much as the Big Choice seemed to make it out to be.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 janvier 2013 - 03:26 .