895 réponses à ce sujet

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The Save Import doesn't represent Bioware respecting your previous choice from other games... it represents KILLING your previous choices on the altar of a false, weak illusion.

Dramatic much?

Seriously, I'm fine with my choices from previous game mostly being relegated to codex entries. I'm fine with little cameos from previous companions and bits of lip service paid to events involving those companions in previous games. Each Dragon Age should be able to stand on its own without too much dependency on events in the previous games, especially since each game has a different protagonist and takes place in a different country which in all likelihood would be only peripherally effected by events, if at all.

The only choices that really have to matter are the ones that I have to make during the course of the game. Those should have an impact, but only occasionally on the next game in the series, if it makes any logical sense for them to.

I don't think, for example, whether Bhelen or Harrowmont ended up on the throne of Orzammar should really matter much to the Inquisitor, beyond perhaps a related side-quest or so. Werewolves or the Dalish? Shouldn't matter that much, if at all.

The Warden saving or destroying the Circle, on the other hand, should at least be mentioned, as it relates thematically to the very divisive conflict that DA3 has it the very center of its story. That being mentioned more than once or even having an effect on the story in some way or another would make sense.

I say keep the save import. OP, you should really ask people who work for BioWare, like David Gaider, if they feel that the save import truly impedes their ability to craft a story.

On a final note, BioWare listens to their fans and they do skim over these forums, but don't delude yourself into believing that they must obey the fans, because that's just ridiculous.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:08 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I liked all the small references. Even some of the cameo's. I liked being told by Bodhan that my hero did indeed marry Anora, that Isabela hinted at her threesome with him and Leliana, that Alistair was doing good and looked happy as a Warden still. That Leliana had moved on after she was no longer seemingly together with my Warden. That the conspirators fled to Kirkwall so Hawke could finish what Cousland had started. I liked that Varric commented on the Golems of Orzammar, that I got a quest to help the werewolves that had aided my army and that Anders had fond memories of his time with the the Hero of Ferelden.

I didn't get one "awesome" feeling in DA2 since there were no instances where choices made a huge difference, but I did in Mass Effect 3.On two seperate characters I solved the genophage issue in different ways. In the first I aided Wrex and accepted Mordin's surrender to fate in order to save the Krogan People and Eve.On the second I was excited that I really felt like being in a dirty war by backstabbing Wreav and convincing Mordin that a increased Krogan population without Eve alive was going to be trouble. I still got my troops, but it wasn't the same story that played out.

I guess that is the difference. You enjoy just random references to your choices in regards to the small, personal things, like who your Warden romanced. I am much more concerned with how my choices have affected the world.

I want to see how the Urn of Sacred Ashes, the most significant proof of divinity the Chantry to get their hands on, has changed the world. In a game like DA3, where the divine right of the Templars to imprison the Mages is in question, this should have a big impact. I'd like to see the Dwarven culture turn good, bad or indifferent, especially on the verge of a war that will deeply entrench them with the lyrium trade. I'd like to see how placing Allistair on the throne and throwing Anora in prison can be integrated, where Allistair is supporting Mage freedom and Anora is being conniving and trying to garner Templar support if they can put her on the throne. I'd like to see how the Mages fair in be Mage/Templar War if two of their Circles are either spared, or Annulled. I'd like to see my choices... my REAL choices, not who I had sex with... represented in game.

In response to your ME3 example, that has nothing to do with the import. You had lots of choices in the Tuchanka mission, but aside from Wrex or Mordin being dead or alive (and being replaced with a suitable clone), none of your choices mattered. If you destroyed the cure research in ME2, it's still magically just as completed and effective in ME3. Yes, Wreav is not as nice as Wrex. But if that's the epitome of Import magic, an evil twin syndrome if someone could have died, then that is pretty shallow.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:16 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I say keep the save import. OP, you should really ask people who work for BioWare, like David Gaider, if they feel that the save import truly impedes their ability to craft a story.

Gaider, in this very thread, said some days he wished they didn't have the import, as it creates headaches. He also went on to say it would continue to be present in DA3, so I wouldn't take that as him saying they are scrapping it any time soon.

But if you want to know how they feel about it, that's it. They realize its a lot of work and that lots of people won't be satisfied with its lack of impact.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I guess that is the difference. You enjoy just random references to your choices in regards to the small, personal things, like who your Warden romanced. I am much more concerned with how my choices have affected the world. 
*snip*

Jimmy means the post before mine.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I say keep the save import. OP, you should really ask people who work for BioWare, like David Gaider, if they feel that the save import truly impedes their ability to craft a story.

Gaider, in this very thread, said some days he wished they didn't have the import, as it creates headaches. He also went on to say it would continue to be present in DA3, so I wouldn't take that as him saying they are scrapping it any time soon.

But if you want to know how they feel about it, that's it. They realize its a lot of work and that lots of people won't be satisfied with its lack of impact.

I don't doubt what you're saying is true, but links to writer/ dev quotes are always nice, but I guess I could also just click the BioWare link underneath this thread's heading in the forum menu.

Seeing as the imports are here to stay for now, I say the impact of choices should be whittled down to only the most relevant ones, storywise. Keep the choices that don't matter to telling a compelling story dormant, perhaps for a future game, perhaps forever. Only use the ones that matter. Save on resources too by only having companion cameos for characters that have a damn good reason to be involved (e.g. Leliana as an agent of the Divine or Fenris given his *ahem* dislike of Mages).

It's fun for fans to see old friends, but given that this isn't Mass Effect and we're not playing the same person in any of the Dragon Age games to date, they're not overwhelming necessary for if the cameo is just put in so that a companion from DA:O or DA2 can poke their head up and say "You don't know me Player Character, but this is what I've been up to and these are the adventures/ romantic good times I've had with the Warden Commander/ Hawke." A lot of this sort of info can be provided by bartenders in taverns, a town crier, or even a gossip wandering down a city's streets.

Worse still is being sent on trivial side-quest by somebody who was a companion in a previous game; especially fetch quests. Fetch quests are annoying and almost always feel contrived. If I want to go on fetch quests, I'll play Skyrim instead. Then again, grinding's not a thing in BioWare games, so it's not like the game needs to be peppered liberally with them.

Where epilogues are concerned, I think the writers should really stick to whatever fates they decided for the companions and the Warden after DA:O and Awakening. I would prefer minimal retconning unless something is described ambiguously enough for a retcon to work.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:26 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Wulfram wrote...

Expansions, and anything that keeps the same protagonist, are always going to need import. It's when you've already decided to change protagonists that it becomes difficult to see the real point

There is still a point even with different protaganists, the world is different based on your results of your previous characters choices and actions or consequences.

When you have same protaganist between games import allows continuation of persona and actions, choices and results of those choices aka consequences to be shown in next game aswell as previous one. When have different protaganist there is no point carrying over the persona and opinions of the previous character played as you are no longer are you playing him or her. However the impact of choices, results and consequences of his or her actions on the world still exist and is worth importing.

The world has changed for individual players characters, it has changed for all future characters you play in that same world. With games like FF you do not need an import because each game is based generally on different worlds or each game you make no choices that are different from another player would. When you use the same world and allow different outcomes, you have to have imports for it not to become schizophrenic world state or story telling. The world is continual and defined by all characters within it and must make sense for every player whos outcomes in previous games were different.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:59 .

[Fast Jimmy]

http://social.biowar...370204#14373470

Here is a link to Gaider's comments. He states they are firmly keeping the import, no doubt, but he did express serious difficulties, obstacles and limitations the feature presents.

Also, in regards to only keeping "big choices" what does this mean?

Is your LI a Big Choice? Is the race or background of your Warden? Is it your class? Is it any DLC choice at all?

Is it three choices per game? Per expansion? Or just three choices, period?

It becomes very tricky very quickly to cherry pick the three special things and then either ignore or make canon the rest.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 janvier 2013 - 06:49 .

[Fast Jimmy]

^

My argument is that those choices only require work, effort and tap dancing for one game. The Save Import requires that same level of convoluted work for threes games and growing. There's a difference.

EDIT: Also, thanks for the correct link. Posting from a mobile phone can be a real hassle. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 janvier 2013 - 06:52 .

[Knight of Dane]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I liked all the small references. Even some of the cameo's. I liked being told by Bodhan that my hero did indeed marry Anora, that Isabela hinted at her threesome with him and Leliana, that Alistair was doing good and looked happy as a Warden still. That Leliana had moved on after she was no longer seemingly together with my Warden. That the conspirators fled to Kirkwall so Hawke could finish what Cousland had started. I liked that Varric commented on the Golems of Orzammar, that I got a quest to help the werewolves that had aided my army and that Anders had fond memories of his time with the the Hero of Ferelden.

I didn't get one "awesome" feeling in DA2 since there were no instances where choices made a huge difference, but I did in Mass Effect 3.On two seperate characters I solved the genophage issue in different ways. In the first I aided Wrex and accepted Mordin's surrender to fate in order to save the Krogan People and Eve.On the second I was excited that I really felt like being in a dirty war by backstabbing Wreav and convincing Mordin that a increased Krogan population without Eve alive was going to be trouble. I still got my troops, but it wasn't the same story that played out.

I guess that is the difference. You enjoy just random references to your choices in regards to the small, personal things, like who your Warden romanced. I am much more concerned with how my choices have affected the world.

I want to see how the Urn of Sacred Ashes, the most significant proof of divinity the Chantry to get their hands on, has changed the world. In a game like DA3, where the divine right of the Templars to imprison the Mages is in question, this should have a big impact. I'd like to see the Dwarven culture turn good, bad or indifferent, especially on the verge of a war that will deeply entrench them with the lyrium trade. I'd like to see how placing Allistair on the throne and throwing Anora in prison can be integrated, where Allistair is supporting Mage freedom and Anora is being conniving and trying to garner Templar support if they can put her on the throne. I'd like to see how the Mages fair in be Mage/Templar War if two of their Circles are either spared, or Annulled. I'd like to see my choices... my REAL choices, not who I had sex with... represented in game.

In response to your ME3 example, that has nothing to do with the import. You had lots of choices in the Tuchanka mission, but aside from Wrex or Mordin being dead or alive (and being replaced with a suitable clone), none of your choices mattered. If you destroyed the cure research in ME2, it's still magically just as completed and effective in ME3. Yes, Wreav is not as nice as Wrex. But if that's the epitome of Import magic, an evil twin syndrome if someone could have died, then that is pretty shallow.

Oh, but no argument there. I too would absolutely have preferred to see my choices have a greater effect it would have been "divine" if wether or not you killed Genetivi/the High Dragon had an effect on how much support Hawke could have sired for the Mages or the Templars depending on your chosen side.

That I like the small references does not mean that I didn't want more impact.

[Wulfram]

Filament wrote...

I feel like this is the same sort of logic we already accept in other areas. Who cares about origin stories when the content is practically identical post-Ostagar? There's value in just knowing your character is different and approaching it with a different frame of mind. Who cares about having insert-choice-here when most people pick choice-A anyway? Even for people who pick choice-A, there's value in knowing those other choices were available.

But the Origins do give you that different frame of mind to approach it from.  Imports don't.

[Iosev]

I've always tried to hold realistic expectations about what the save-import feature can offer. While I would love for variables in one game to dramatically alter the people, places, and events in the following games, I understand the difficulty in doing so, especially as the variables increase in number.

What I do expect from the import-save feature is its ability to provide an illusion of a more personal experience, and at least for me, it has been successful for the most part. For example, I enjoy the references that various characters will make about my previous protagonist's actions. I also like when certain characters appear and help bridge the experience between each game.

Ultimately, it is an illusion that I think each player also has to help maintain (i.e., it is not solely on the developers), since it is a subjective experience, and I think an important key to maintaining that illusion is by holding realistic expectations of what the feature can bring. Not that there isn't any room for improvement, but I would simply hope that Bioware continues to refine the experience, rather than scrap it.

[Dragoonlordz]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

http://social.biowar...370204#14373470

Here is a link to Gaider's comments. He states they are firmly keeping the import, no doubt, but he did express serious difficulties, obstacles and limitations the feature presents.

Also, in regards to only keeping "big choices" what does this mean?

Is your LI a Big Choice? Is the race or background of your Warden? Is it your class? Is it any DLC choice at all?

Is it three choices per game? Per expansion? Or just three choices, period?

It becomes very tricky very quickly to cherry pick the three special things and then either ignore or make canon the rest.

The only things that need to be imported are things that effect the next game. Story or characters that cross over or have an impact. The rest is recorded in an export even though not required to be present in the next game it may have an impact on the one after that. It's not about big or small choices, it's about which choices will have impact picked from the export from previous games or have a consequence present in the next title. A companion choice if the companion is present in the next game is as important as a world changing choice. A world changing choice is of little importance if nothing in that next game relates to that part of the world or it's characters.

I think what Gaider means is better implementation and having less mitakes with it making sure that the choices which were made that have some impact on state of the world or characters present in from a previous title in the next sticks to what choice people have chosen and not invalidating by way of canonising or ignoring (claiming that choice never existed or was not made, corrupting it) from some of those choices.

You do end up with vast list of choices exported like ME had across the trilogy and that where the complication comes in, you have to sift through all those choices to make sure all the ones that will have an impact in the next title do so correctly. But they can throw away (remove choices during the export of the last DLC or expansion of previous game) choices that relate to the previous character such as what he felt on issues, what opinion he has or anything that did not provide world or companion based consequence because he or she should not be present in the next game as far as I am concerned in DA unlike ME which had Shepard present in all three+DLCs.

You only need to keep his character persona or traits, skills, stats or equipment recorded for the period of that game and it's DLC's not any others unless they try to cameo a previous protaganist which iI feel they should stay away from doing (I am against having Hawke or Warden cameos especially against lpayable in DA3 and I consider their stories or part play done, now it's Inquisitors turn and don't want his or her story deminished by their presence). That should reduce quantity of choices recorded slightly in DA compared to ME that have to contend with. Also only record those that have an potential consequence or impact regarding world and companions.

Start better organising how they are recorded within different groups/catagorisation or types of choices as to avoid having one vast long list, apply filters and keyword searches should make things a lot easier, better labelling of the choices is a must plus having descriptions attached. Having looked back in save game editor at how they labelled and recorded the choices in previous games they need improving as some simply do not make much sense and too confusing with not enough context (imo). Sometimes feels like they are using equivilant of .txt format to record things instead of well designed .db with ability for filter and search functions going by some of mistakes that importing had in past overriding choices or ignoring them.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 janvier 2013 - 07:58 .

[Fast Jimmy]

^

So, in ME, do you think that Katsumi should have been completely ignored? She was a DLC-only companion. Same with Zaeed. And Sebastian and Shale in the DA series.

Who is the final arbiter of what makes the almighty cut? It's playing favorites, ultimately, as I can come up with a list of nearly every major plot choice given in DA:O and DA2 hat would have a logical way of playing into what we know of DA3. And, even if that choice doesn't play into DA3, how do we know it won't tie into the story of DA4?

If the Dark Ritual choice isn't resolved by DA3, should it be chucked? It doesn't apply to DA3, so it should be stripped out, according to your above statements. But if that choice is ignored, you will have as many people outraged than if made the Warden a canon Human Noble male.

[Dragoonlordz]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

So, in ME, do you think that Katsumi should have been completely ignored? She was a DLC-only companion. Same with Zaeed. And Sebastian and Shale in the DA series.

Who is the final arbiter of what makes the almighty cut? It's playing favorites, ultimately, as I can come up with a list of nearly every major plot choice given in DA:O and DA2 hat would have a logical way of playing into what we know of DA3. And, even if that choice doesn't play into DA3, how do we know it won't tie into the story of DA4?

If the Dark Ritual choice isn't resolved by DA3, should it be chucked? It doesn't apply to DA3, so it should be stripped out, according to your above statements. But if that choice is ignored, you will have as many people outraged than if made the Warden a canon Human Noble male.

She is a companion just like any within core game (imho). So no she should not be ignored (in sense of record in export wiped) of which like the other companions she also made multiple appearences and could continue to do so in ME3. In the case of world events they do not need to be chucked and same applies to any companions that have not been canonised as dead. But with protaganists what can be chucked is their traits, persona, attributes, skills, equipment and stats etc non world or companion altering choices after the final DLC or expansion of a previous game.

I do not think the protaganists from previous games should ever be present in a following game, neither cameo or playable and should be restricted to their DLC's and expansions for the previous game. Once the final DLC or expanion for that previous game is done then the export of that DLC or expansion should strip out all those elements I just mentioned. There is no reason to chuck dark ritual because it had world based consequence, it brought into the world a potential new character. It's the previous characters personal data that can be chucked once the final DLC for their game is done.

EDIT: Also I should clarify when I said imported into next game I mean used from the export in the first sentence from my last post of which you are referring.

I made this ages ago to solve issues of not requiring import previous protaganist (personal) data if was cameo.....

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:27 .

[Sakanade]

If they remove the save import because of a few dumbasses who whine a lot, I can assure you that most loyal fans who played through DA:O and DA:2 are going to reign fire and brimstone on these boards.
If you think Retake ME was bad, wait till this bomb hits.


These boards might be "Toxic" and I don't visit often, but if this happens, these boards will become like the sun.
If you even get close, you're going to get solar flamed.

Modifié par Sakanade, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:13 .

[Wozearly]

Sakanade wrote...

If they remove the save import because of a few dumbasses who whine a lot, I can assure you that most loyal fans who played through DA:O and DA:2 are going to reign fire and brimstone on these boards.
If you think Retake ME was bad, wait till this bomb hits.

Subjective opinion is subjective.

I have no problem with a well-executed save import feature, but I despair of this happening unless the opportunities to make importable decisions are few and far between, and/or the future game ignores the majority of them to avoid tying its own story and plot line in knots.

If some fans are annoyed that their decisions would be ignored in transfer to the new game by lack of a save import, they can join the DA fans annoyed that their decisions were retconned in order to have the desired characters (including cameos) in DA2.

I severely doubt that this would be anything like as divisive as the ME3 endings fiasco in terms of reality, although I can see how spinning "save import removed" into "Bioware officially says your big decisions don't matter" would happen. 

But really, we should honestly ask whether the save import in its current state is actually meaningfully making your "big decisions" from past games matter in the first place. It isn't (IMO), so one of the options to fix it is to admit this, drop it, and move on. Which is essentially what I think Fast Jimmy is arguing.

Whilst I'd personally rather a perfected save import feature, I think that in the clear face of knowing we're not going to get that, he has a valid point. But feel free to scream "Hold the line!" at anyone you disagree with, if it makes you feel better.

[Dragoonlordz]

Sakanade wrote...

If they remove the save import because of a few dumbasses who whine a lot, I can assure you that most loyal fans who played through DA:O and DA:2 are going to reign fire and brimstone on these boards.
If you think Retake ME was bad, wait till this bomb hits.

These boards might be "Toxic" and I don't visit often, but if this happens, these boards will become like the sun.
If you even get close, you're going to get solar flamed.

They are not ever removing save import, DG has said so as have others earlier in the thread when said that despite some people creating topics like this the save import is here to stay.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:25 .

[Fast Jimmy]

To be fair, Gaider did not say they would NEVER stop the import, just that they won't now and aren't looking at in the future. Not inherently the same thing.

For what it's worth, I'd bet every dime I have in my pockets that the new IP Bioware has been discussing will NOT involve the Save Import.

[Dragoonlordz]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

To be fair, Gaider did not say they would NEVER stop the import, just that they won't now and aren't looking at in the future. Not inherently the same thing.

For what it's worth, I'd bet every dime I have in my pockets that the new IP Bioware has been discussing will NOT involve the Save Import.

If it's an SP related game franchise like DA or ME with RPG elements I bet it will have export/import system. If it's a racing or strategy, MMO or other genre you might be right.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:57 .

[Realmzmaster]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The only point that gets carried over in the save import is the world state. The consequences of the choices made. For example the choice of Dwarven king. The consequence is either Harrowmont or Bhelen. That is what is imported. The consequence is that both rule differently. Harrowmont continues a closed society. Bhelen opens up the society but also becomes the sovereign ruler dissolving the assembly..
DA2 simply sniffed at the consequence with a minor side quest.

Anders comes back in DA2 even though he could die in DA:A (an arrow though the neck) because of the Keep not having enough upgrades. So Bioware sets canon that Anders lives and merges with Justice despite what happens in DA:A.
So Bioware is already ignoring parts of the consequence as it fits its purpose.

I disagree on what we're calling a "consequence." I think your CHOICE of Dwarven king gets carried over. The consequence, to me, would be the state of Orzammar.

The choice and the consequence both get carried over, because at the end of DAO it states in the epilogue slide ending exactly what was the consequence of the choice. So the consequence is what gets carried over. Exampe if the warden chooses Bhelen the consequence of that choice appears in DA2 with Lord Renvil Harrowmont on the run because Bhelen has systematically assassinated every other Harrowmont.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 16 janvier 2013 - 09:34 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

To be fair, Gaider did not say they would NEVER stop the import, just that they won't now and aren't looking at in the future. Not inherently the same thing.

For what it's worth, I'd bet every dime I have in my pockets that the new IP Bioware has been discussing will NOT involve the Save Import.

If it's an SP related game franchise like DA or ME with RPG elements I bet it will have export/import system. If it's a racing or strategy, MMO or other genre you might be right.

I disagree. I think that even if it is a SP RPG, they won't touch the Save Import. Heck, if given a time machine, I'd bet Gaider and Laidlaw would go back to their 2007 selves and scream "NO! Don't do it!"

Instead, they probably said "that sounds like a problem Future Mike/Dave will deal with." /How I Met Your Mother Reference. 

[LobselVith8]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The choice and the consequence both get carried over, because at the end of DAO it states in the epilogue slide ending exactly what was the consequence of the choice. So the consequence is what gets carried over. Examplke if the warden chooses Bhelen the consequence of that choice appears in DA2 with Lord Renvil Harrowmont on the run because Bhelen has systematically assassinated every other Harrowmont. 

[Cunning] Weren't epilogue slides declared to be non-canon? 

As soon as the developers started contradicting them by bringing people back to life and changing the outcomes of certain slides...