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[esper]

krul2k wrote...

esper wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

esper wrote...
Wait, when was Cullen ever moderate? Or a voice of reason?

In DA2 he was presented that way, as contrast to Meredith.  Though he still does talk about mages as not really being people.

Then man told my charatcer to her face that she wasn't human, did not try to stop Miss 'I want to kill the mages that didn't blow up the chantry and totally ignore the one who did', somehow got the idea that Meridith was only going to arrest a champion who sided with said mages, even when that champion was a mage herself, and then first turn on Meridith when the champion (who is the one capable of defending herself compared to the normal mages) was in 'danger'. Even if the group of the champion properly was the only oine Meridith had any justification (however small) in trying to kill.

That is not the voice of 'moderate' and 'sane'. That is the voice of unstable and illoyal quite consistent with a character who had their moderateness tortured out them.

i prefer to think of cullen as "underdevelopment" an a guy thats got alot of issues an insecurities but above all alot of conflict in him, he believes in the templars what he doesnt believe in is the barbarism (hope thats the word) an injustices he sees being done to people by the order, i think his words are

"Maybe you are right, maybe wee should find a better way to teach the mages"

sometghing like that anyhow, but hearing him say it speaks to me of a man in conflict a man trying to find a better solution an a man trying his hardest.

No, that is not his response if you choose the most pro-mage answer. He says...
'But mages aren't people like you and me' and then proceed to complain that 'Templars arent as welcome...'

Moderate, he aint. It is just that Meridith is a nut case compared to... well anyone.

But back to topic. With out save importat the problem with bringer back minor characters from a previous game are not that bioware has branches for these characters (because bioware hasn't) but that the fans has head canons for them and cry fault when that head canon is challenged. See Merrill for example who had no more than an extremely superficial charactization in the dalsih origin, and that was a charactization that was open to basically any understanding, but people still had their head canon. That is, however, not a problem that save import fixes or creates.

[Dhoozy77]

Just let bioware write their stories k like final fantasy. A set protagonist with a name. Forget about freedom of choice since it doesn't matter. Take a page from eastern game dev. Make a cool character and have him be the star.

[Addai]

esper wrote...

That is not the voice of 'moderate' and 'sane'. That is the voice of unstable and illoyal quite consistent with a character who had their moderateness tortured out them.

Did you read the interview I linked to on the previous page?  I agree with you that he isn't the cuddly templar many people want him to be, but Gaider talks about him as a way to present templars as not all terrible people who don't listen to reason.  So that's probably where they're going with him- brace yourself.

As far as BAT. SHEET.  It's true that people freak out, but the import mechanic in itself creates these expectations.  Either your choices matter or they don't, and different people give emotional weight to different things.  I think it's probably more trouble than it's worth myself.  I'm more worried about Witcher 3 than DA3, though.

[esper]

Addai67 wrote...

esper wrote...

That is not the voice of 'moderate' and 'sane'. That is the voice of unstable and illoyal quite consistent with a character who had their moderateness tortured out them.

Did you read the interview I linked to on the previous page?  I agree with you that he isn't the cuddly templar many people want him to be, but Gaider talks about him as a way to present templars as not all terrible people who don't listen to reason.  So that's probably where they're going with him- brace yourself.

As far as BAT. SHEET.  It's true that people freak out, but the import mechanic in itself creates these expectations.  Either your choices matter or they don't, and different people give emotional weight to different things.  I think it's probably more trouble than it's worth myself.  I'm more worried about Witcher 3 than DA3, though.

I don't like pressing links, but I will trust you and go with it.

If they giving him us as our 'moderate' templars aren't all bad, they are basically just giving me more ammo for being pro-mage, since the 'good' templar are person I see as unstable. So no skin of my nose. Just make it easier for me to villify the templars.

(And he isn't getting too close to my next mage protagonist anyway, simply due to being a templar so she will have an in game reason for not to trust him).

[LobselVith8]

esper wrote...

Wait, when was Cullen ever moderate? Or a voice of reason? 

I didn't see Cullen as a moderate, either. His comments about the Tranquil Solution don't really convey him as a moderate (in my humble opinion), although I can see why someone would see him as being less of an extremist than Meredith, considering what she does in Act III.

esper wrote...

Anyway, Cullen doesn't have any major branches in his background. No matter what he was totured in da:o and no matter what he turned (belately) on Meridith when she was proven to be insane. He can be worked in. (Though I don't want him and is properly going to turn him away if I can.)

Yeah, I can imagine Cullen would oppose the protagonist on certain issues. As for turning on Meredith, while it made sense for the scene with pro-templar Hawke, it never really made sense to me that Cullen would oppose Meredith for wanting to kill pro-mage Hawke during the Right of Annulment, when he's already killed waves of templars in his path. Hawke looks ready to fight Meredith and her templars; it's not as though the Champion tried to surrender, or anything like that.

[esper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

esper wrote...

Wait, when was Cullen ever moderate? Or a voice of reason? 

I didn't see Cullen as a moderate, either. His comments about the Tranquil Solution don't really convey him as a moderate (in my humble opinion), although I can see why someone would see him as being less of an extremist than Meredith, considering what she does in Act III.

esper wrote...

Anyway, Cullen doesn't have any major branches in his background. No matter what he was totured in da:o and no matter what he turned (belately) on Meridith when she was proven to be insane. He can be worked in. (Though I don't want him and is properly going to turn him away if I can.)

Yeah, I can imagine Cullen would oppose the protagonist on certain issues. As for turning on Meredith, while it made sense for the scene with pro-templar Hawke, it never really made sense to me that Cullen would oppose Meredith for wanting to kill pro-mage Hawke during the Right of Annulment, when he's already killed waves of templars in his path. Hawke looks ready to fight Meredith and her templars; it's not as though the Champion tried to surrender, or anything like that.

I am just going to quote my self on this:

'Then man told my charatcer to her face that she wasn't human, did not
try to stop Miss 'I want to kill the mages that didn't blow up the
chantry and totally ignore the one who did', somehow got the idea that
Meridith was only going to arrest a champion who sided with said mages,
even when that champion was a mage herself, and then first turn on
Meridith when the champion (who is the one capable of defending herself
compared to the normal mages) was in 'danger'. Even if the group of the
champion properly was the only oine Meridith had any justification
(however small) in trying to kill.

That is not the voice of
'moderate' and 'sane'. That is the voice of unstable and illoyal quite
consistent with a character who had their moderateness tortured out
them.'

I do think that his reaction makes sense. He is unstable and traumatized and clearly Meridith is going of on the deep end so I think he simply jumps ship when Meridith is attacking someone he knows can fight and the 'arrest thing' is just a justification for doing it. (Hawke might very well not want his help). He was the only templar caught who survived in that cage. I am not sure that it says positive thing about him.

Anyway if he is the poster boy for moderate templar, bioware is handing me reasons for villify the templars on a silver plate as moderate and sane never is something I can connect to Cullen after da.o and da2.

[addiction21]

I thought it was a neat idea and waited to see how it would turn out. Now I would not have a problem with it disappearing. Along with some of the unrealistic expectations some fans have put on BioWare for it.

[xAmilli0n]

I honestly wouldn't mind it not making a return. I played DA:O, but didn't really like how that turned out (and I really don't have the time to dedicate to a new playthrough), so I used one of the pre-made histories in DA2 that was most similar to what I wanted.

Wouldn't mind seeing the same in DA:I. Then there is the whole next gen issue...

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...
Gaider has said that in some ways he regrets putting the Dark Ritual in, though he liked the choice that it forced you to make.  It's a good development crisis for the Warden, though it would have been better if they had kept the diverging scenes for Alistair romance, Morrigan romance etc.  He does indicate that they realize this is a choice they can't just handwave.  That doesn't mean they won't eventually just handwave it, though, heartburn or not.

Yeah, its a good choice but the way its presented in the game and subsequently mandating never bringing back an old PC means that any future consequence will more than likely fall flat, IMO. I just think to have the biggest impact for that choice, the consequences should be felt by the player via playing as the person making that initial choice.

Addai67 wrote...
I am more perturbed by the seeming amnesia about Cullen's character arc.  It seems they're determined to make him the templar voice of reason, whereas that doesn't at all seem like organic development to me.  He went from woobie creeper to postal rampage to moderate "templar with a heart."  But because some people fangirl on him, we're going to get him back again.

Some of this is probably jarring because there has to be openness in how characters are set up so as to accommadate different paths, but in bringing characters and events back, they have to narrow those branches back down to one.

Yeah, thats kind of the problem they had with the epilogue slides too. They basically ignored them. Then again, maybe Cullen only looks more moderate because they framed him up against a comically insane and over the top character like Meredith.

Ultimately, If they were to canonize things from game to game and remove the import that would be fine by me provided that they ideally allowed for more divergence within the individual game but more importantly provided satisfying closure to any big story threads they opened up within the game.Origins does a pretty good job with closure I think, outside of something like the Dark Ritual (although Witch Hunt kind of helps a little).

Fast Jimmy wrote...
There are some there that are easily ignored, others which would make a ton  of sense with the Mage/Templar War looming. This may seem like a lot,  but notice there is no request for anyone being alive/dead except for  the Architect (and I'd be fine with making him a canon survivor, given  how interesting of a villain he is). This list also ignores 95% of side  quests, as well as interactions with companions such as Rivlary or  hardening. It limits the choices to ones that could be used to tell  world-state affecting choices.

And, of course, I'd be fine with  Bioware canonizing any of them if it meant the stories on these choices  can be built on and elaborated more.

Pretty much many of those sorts of choices could be logically thought to only have big consequences locally or for a certain period of time. So something like who the Ruler of Ferelden or Orzammar is might only be relevent if the new story needs those characters around. I'd agree that if the writers had some awesome story brewing that might utilize those kinds of variable characters and had to kill it due to being too costly due to the variability the save import introduces, that would be terrible. But then again, it would be nice if BioWare could do something to make that sort of variability more possible.

On the notion of the Mage/Templar stuff even being terribly important in DA3, I 'm not even so sure about that. The leaked survey synopsis almost makes it sound like the Mage/Templar stuff  could be seen as a minor conflict  a la any of the minor hub conflicts in Origins, like Werewolves versus Elves.

Based on that leak, that's really how I'm imagining DA3 will be structured- kind of just like Origins but bigger in scope. Orlais in civil war= Ferelden in civil war. Some mysterious breach between Fade and real world equalling supernatural threat= Blight as supernatural threat. Go around Thedas solving problems to gather allies= Go around Ferelden gathering allies. So I think the core conflict and premise of DA3 might even act to narratively handwave some of the import problems in a "Rocks fall, everyone dies!" type of way, potentially.


Then again, compared to Origins, it did not feel like DA2 even offered very much in the way of potentially far reaching choice moments. Pretty much the main thing there is whether Hawke sided with the Mages or Templars and even that didn't "feel" important within the game considering how you were obnoxiously railroaded into fighting both sides anyway.

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 janvier 2013 - 07:32 .

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I agree in the lack of impacting choices in terms of the world in DA2. There weren't many in Awakening, either... but given that it was an expansion, this shouldn't be surprising. But I think DA2 had less choices of importance, especially if they don't bring any of DA2's companions back in a more detailed way (which I doubt they will).

This lack of choice and consequence in making decisions that affect all of Thedas may not be a direct result of the headaches the Save Import brings in, but it certainly is a strong influence, at the least. Which is why I stand against it in all but the most minimalist of ways.

[x12796]

marshalleck wrote...

I'd be fine with this. Mass Effect showed that save imports are just a pointless gimmick, and I'm quite confident the stories would only improve with the writers not being chained to the past.

I'm throwing the BS flag on you for the Mass Effect comment.  Our choices throughout the games mattered greatly in ME.  I shot Wrex therefore I didn't have him in my later games, in ME2 I lost Legion and Katsumi, all of these affected my play through and my story arcs - actions had their consquences and probably will in future ME games too.  Just because Bioware didn't fully deliver on what they promosed regarding our choices panning out in the final outcome of the Reaper invasion when they gave us the "pick a color, any color" ending does not mean that they didn't matter throughout the experience of the entire trilogy.

Regarding importing DA saves, Bioware has made save imports "their thing" and most of the fan base likes having our universe being shaped by our choices.  The only thing that I want Bioware to do is make a truly open world game like Bethesda does with Fallout\\TES instead of making us fast travel to predesignated areas.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

In ME2 and 3, if you killed someone in a previous game, they did stay dead, you are right. But they were filled in with a clone. This happened with Wrex, Mordin, Legion... heck, it even happened with the Rachni Queen!

To say they made those choices significantly different is not true. It's the same in almost every case, with just a slight change to dialogue, based on if it was an NPC you met before or a new one. The high point of the imports was Tuchanka and Rannoch, but these were completely made moot, because we never saw any consequence for the choices presented. Cure the Genophage and have the Krogan possibly rise up in a few generations? Doesn't matter - RGB. Create peace between the Geth or Quarians, or have them kill each other? Doesn't matter - RGB.

The import gave a small FLAVOR of choices having impact - but they didn't. They were either a few dialogue lines difference or a different EMS number. If the endings had gone into real depth about the consequences of our choices, like having the Krogans be a threat under Wreav, but peaceful under Wrex, that would have been something. If by having the Geth and Quarians live peacefully, it let them live in peace together outside of the Quarian suits, that would have been something. If the Rachni could have been restored and shown themsves to be peaceful, or could have still turned into a galactic threat, that would have been something. 

But the endings give us none of that. The game acknowledges NONE of that.

And, as I said in a (much) earlier post, if you think ME4 is going to use the Save Import in any real way or if you think it's going to not set a canon ending (likely Destory or Control), then I believe you are quite delusional.

ME is the evidence in the case against the Save Import, specifically ME3. The devs stated they were going all out to incorporate different choices and how it could create different stories, but even with that in mind, it fell flat on its face. Again, maybe if the endings hasn't borked the whole series and showed us some consequences to these decisions and the minor variations they had when we imported them over, I would agree with you. But as it is, all we got were retcons, railroads and a clone factory. None of which are good examples of reactive, divergent content, let alone a feeling I was playing in "my Shepherd's" world.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:19 .

[Asch Lavigne]

I am in favor of imports. But the problem with DA is that the first two games take place in specific places, and honestly, how much of an impact do you think they'll have when you go somewhere else? Very little. Even the major decisions in Origins were more geared towards life in Ferelden than the whole of Thedas.

[Fast Jimmy]

john_sheparrd wrote...

no what's wrong with you

A deep and provoking counter argument, to be sure. 

[nightscrawl]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

In ME2 and 3, if you killed someone in a previous game, they did stay dead, you are right. But they were filled in with a clone. This happened with Wrex, Mordin, Legion... heck, it even happened with the Rachni Queen!

For those of us who haven't played ME, can you elaborate on the "clone" thing? Do you mean they replaced the dead person with a "new" NPC that was new in name and appearance only? Meaning: they had the same personality, skills, and generally performed the same function for the PC. Or do you mean a literal clone?

[Fast Jimmy]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

I am in favor of imports. But the problem with DA is that the first two games take place in specific places, and honestly, how much of an impact do you think they'll have when you go somewhere else? Very little. Even the major decisions in Origins were more geared towards life in Ferelden than the whole of Thedas.

Feel free to poke around and read some of the many discussions about how previously introduced story ideas and choices could be made into relevant and interesting segments of content, but cannot be made, due to the fact that Bioware is not going to create custom content for a choice not everyone made. 

[Fast Jimmy]

nightscrawl wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

In ME2 and 3, if you killed someone in a previous game, they did stay dead, you are right. But they were filled in with a clone. This happened with Wrex, Mordin, Legion... heck, it even happened with the Rachni Queen!

For those of us who haven't played ME, can you elaborate on the "clone" thing? Do you mean they replaced the dead person with a "new" NPC that was new in name and appearance only? Meaning: they had the same personality, skills, and generally performed the same function for the PC. Or do you mean a literal clone?

Well, in the case of ME3, there are examples of both. 

But, aside from the one instance of a clone LITERALLY being made, the rest are examples of characters who are of the same species, skills and (rough) personality of the former companion/NPC who could be dead. They had the same role, offered most of the same options, with the caveat that the NPC you knew was nicer/better and had the implication of a happier outcome. 

But, as Insaid (and I'm sure you may have heard), the endings of ME3 make it so that any real choice made throughout the whole serried is made pretty much invalid, so it all becomes unfulfilled consequences of if they are dead or alive and becomes nothing more than cosmetic in nature. 

[Wulfram]

I felt Tuchanka was generally pretty well done. Wreav was a different character from Wrex, and together with whether or not Eve survived, it could put a nicely different spin on your ultimate choice of what to do with the cure. Though Wiks was a bit too much of a Mordin clone.

I think it's probably about as good as we can expect from imports. But I wouldn't consider it worth the hassle if we weren't playing the same protagonist.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I would have considered it worth the hassle if it really ACTUALLY resulted in things being different.

For instance, what if they pulled a king of Orzammar and had Wreav and Eve be a better long term solution? What if Wrex WASN'T the best leader? Or if Eve had died, that the females would lose influence and wind up resulting in a civil war breaking out with the Krogan, where other species are hurt?

We don't know. We are force fed the idea that the story is "different" based on those choices, but we don't know because of the endings. They mask, obscure and hide any effect of the choices we make, even when it's not necessary. In Destroy, they could have gone into great detail on the fate of these things. In Control, we could have found out more information about the future of the Geth and Quarian.

But they don't. We get NO details. And, again, if anyone is holding their breath for ME4 to be some great continuation where these choices either A) use the import at all or make drastically different outcomes (like the Krogan being peaceful or full-on warlike), then you are living in a fantasy land.

[Fandabydastic]

No. I'd hate it.
I love DA so much because of the decision making; even if they only have an influence on that one game that's still better than removing choice at all. It wouldn't be DA if it didn't give you the option. And what would be the point in giving us decision making just to shot it down by making canon? Gimmick or not; it's possibly the most important point in the entire DA series to me.

I understand that a whole plot can't be shaped like this and my expectations are not high for the imports. Seriously, I saved the werewolves; oh here's a werewolf quest; or ohhai Zevran is frankly enough for me. A few cameos; a quest here or there and a mention now and again in passing is fine. I play each game as a game but it is refreshing to find the world is my own making in some small degree.

Not only that but it gives it a hell of a lot of replayability for me. I will play both games just to see if one conversation is different based on my origin or a choice. And it'll be worth it in my eyes. I live off of little easter eggs like this and I pray no one takes them away from me.

[PlumPaul93]

I'd be okay with this if they actually let us choose what we did for the previous games. Don't see them doing that though, I doubt an import will have any real affect in the game either.

[Wozearly]

One of Brockololly's posts a page or two back got me thinking...

What, ultimately, should a save import actually 'do'?

For me, the import should do at least one of two things.

The 'basic' bit is to transfer personal information from the previous world state and apply it to the world state in the new game so that the universe is loosely continuing where you left off. So (hypothetically speaking) if your warden was a male dwarf, then people should be referring to the Hero of Ferelden as a male dwarf. If your past character romanced a companion who appears in the sequel, you'd expect some reference when you meet them. If you killed one of your companions, assuming that they're not world-critical characters, you would expect them to stay dead.

Then there's the 'complex' bit, which is where you transfer world-changing decisions from the previous world state and apply them to the world state in the new game to the point where the differences are considered to be fairly noticeable by players. This is more tricky, because it forces the developers to cope with the branching effects of past decisions - in effect, having to create notable additional content to reflect the ripple effect of decisions with far-reaching consequences.

So when does it work well?

Taking SWTOR2, the early-stage conversation with Atton is a good example. The gender and alignment of your past character are imported into the world, which slightly shifts the background of what's happened up to that point so that the rest of the story is consistent with your past journey, but doesn't interfere with the storytelling because you have a new character and its set a number of years afterwards. Incidentally, SWTOR2 is also a good example of building imports into conversation, so that newcomers and past players have the same in-game ability to set the past of the world - no content is denied to anyone.

SWTOR2 was fortunate. Bioware left Obsidian with one key personal choice (were you male or female), and one key world-changer (did you conclude as light side or dark side). Depending on that, you know which companions were available for the new game, which gender pronouns to use in certain conversations and, therefore, who could do cameos and what their thoughts on past events would be.

Did it work in DA2?

Not particularly well overall, in my view...and the main fault for this lies squarely with Origins. Players were given a lot of freedom to make permanent personal decisions (like, say, killing over 90% of your companions or having several potential romance options). Too much freedom from this perspective.

If you kept to it, that restricts you to cameos only of living companions and the need to introduce an alternative if one of them is critical to the new story (and dead), plus several "If I'm alive and I loved your past character, I might be expected to mention it" moments. That's a fair chunk of work, especially when you have to voice act the alternatives, so not too surprising that in some cases we see Anders and Leliana rise mysteriously from their graves and not much in the way of actual commentary about past personal decisions.

DA2 had a good stab at bringing over what they could given the minefield DA:O left behind, particularly with the codex, but seeing your personal decisions actively rewritten to what they 'should' have been doesn't really help you feel that the new game is genuinely a continuation of the world you were exploring. IMO, it rather undermines the main purpose of the 'basic' part of the import.

Did DA2 bring the large world-changing decisions over? Well, not really. Because we had both a new character and were placed in a completely different part of the world, most past world-changing decisions were irrelevant to what was happening in Kirkwall. Which made life easier for the devs, because it avoided the need to cope with the variety of past decisions required if the game was set in Ferelden again.

Did it work in Mass Effect?

This time, the character and world were consistent, which makes the 'basic' bit easier. Most critical personal decisions came over and, IMO, did this pretty seamlessly overall. Dead people didn't return to life, Shepard looked passably similar to your past Shepard, when the past was referenced it was done well (IMO) and several small things came back to create small amounts of differentiation. I won't say it was perfect, but on this score it did well.

On the big things? ME3 promised to bring the big decisions back together and make them have an impact, but didn't realise this. Or even really attempt to. Rants at ME3 aside, I think a fair chunk of this was that its incredibly difficult to do this well...particularly if you want to tell a fairly linear story. I'm not sure it was possible to tell the story that the ME3 wanted to tell, and give the player control of the state of the world leading up to it. One had to give. In this case, as in every one before it, it was player control.

How to make a game work well for importing to a future sequel

To me, the recipe looks pretty clear. Only give the player very limited personal choices and if you are going to have world-changing decisions, save them for the endgame. Then set the next game in a sufficiently different place or time so that you don't have to directly deal with the consequences of those choices, but they're still relevant enough to crop up and have players think "Hey, that was something I did...".

And, if you're feeling brave, let one world-changing decision actually make things notably different in the 'new' world. Eerily enough, DA2 looks like a good springboard for this, so DA3 might be a pleasant surprise.

There's just one small flaw...

A persistent and common argument on these forums has been that fans dislike railroading and the feeling that they aren't able to make sufficient small-scale choices, let alone big personal ones or world-changing ones. And when they make them, they want them to have a genuine impact - not just be referenced as a codex footnote in the next game. Which places fan requests on a direct collision course with what is actually possible from an import perspective...

TL;DR

Imports work well when you limit the number of small-impact personal decisions players can make, particularly if the player has the same character in the sequel. If you give players a world-changing decision, only give them one and then set the next game close enough to the last that the effects of that decision can be noticed, even if they're only flavour.

However, if you want a game where you get the opportunity to make wildly divergent personal choices between playthroughs, and the opportunity to make several world-changing decisions, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the cameos, codex footnotes, handwaving and retconning you'll get in reality.

Pick one.

Modifié par Wozearly, 18 janvier 2013 - 10:42 .