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Remove the Save Import


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#651
keioken

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I'm in favor of 86ing the save import feature altogether. All it does is constrain the writing team from developing a great story. There is nothing wrong with using a canon narrative to develop a sequel, as it makes for a stronger base to write the sequel. That's not to say that there shouldn't be choices made during the course of each individual game, but to say without a save import that "my choices are meaningless" is asinine. You shouldn't play games with the hope that your save will carry over to the sequel, you should play games because you enjoy them. Unfetter the writing team and let them do their jobs without concern for stroking players egos for having played through a previous entry in a series. Just to reiterate a point, do not confuse "Save Import" with "No Player Choice", take DA:O for example...no Save Import obviously, but it was chock full of "Player Choice". DA:2 "Save Import" that didn't do much but give cameos to characters from previous games, (some of whom were killed off in DA:O) and a few bits of dialogue from a bartender.

I'm also tired of seeing "The Walking Dead" and "Branching Story" used in the same sentence. TWD was an amazing game, but it was without a doubt offering the player the illusion of choice, rather than any meaningful changes to the story. Nothing the player did could change the outcome of canon moments through the episodes.

SPOILERS FOR TWD PLOT POINTS FOLLOW, IF YOU AREN'T INTERESTED IN READING THEM, MOVE ON.




Spoiler
Even with that, it's easily the BEST WRITTEN GAME OF 2012, AND ITS CHOCK FULL OF CANON MOMENTS.

Modifié par keioken, 19 janvier 2013 - 04:17 .


#652
Nonoru

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No. Leave it alone. I don't want ME direction story telling in DA.

#653
Celene II

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They really should not have a feature from game 1 to game 2 then abandon it for game 3. They have other games. They can have those games have canon stories that make the sequels less important.

This game series has had import saves and it worked better then any one so far that does it. Some of the best funniest scenes of DA2 was import save material

#654
dduane o

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Keep the save import. It keeps the world's consistency. Less explanations for future games, who killed the blight, who's the king, which side is winning, what change is coming. this also increases the tension for the next game.

Just like ME, but with more freedom, has a DIY story, based on past choices.

#655
dduane o

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Keep the save import. It keeps the world's consistency. Less explanations for future games, who killed the blight, who's the king, which side is winning, what change is coming. this also increases the tension for the next game.

Just like ME, but with more freedom, has a DIY story, based on past choices.

#656
xsamplexample

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OMG i cant believe some of these ppl! why are we listenng to these fans? these fans will ruin the dam franchise if we listen to this dribble!
 

Bioware's main 'thing' is the save imports.  Been that way since bauldurs gate...
whoever thinks removing this feature will make the franchise stronger can just get out; nobody wants your opinion to be on the internet.  sorry.  go play outside or something. 

#657
Fast Jimmy

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xsamplexample wrote...

OMG i cant believe some of these ppl! why are we listenng to these fans? these fans will ruin the dam franchise if we listen to this dribble!
 

Bioware's main 'thing' is the save imports.  Been that way since bauldurs gate...
whoever thinks removing this feature will make the franchise stronger can just get out; nobody wants your opinion to be on the internet.  sorry.  go play outside or something. 


I think you should drop the "x" at the front of your name. Samplexample would be a cool play on word structure, but the x in front kind of draws the attention away, making it less effective. Just a suggestion. 

Do you have any examples of where a Save Import made a huge difference to you as a player? An instance where you thought "Yes! My choice really mattered here; I'm so glad Bioware did this!"

#658
Andraste_Reborn

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While I hesitate to respond to this blatant necromancy, I feel that someone should point out that there's no real save importing in the Baldur's Gate franchise. You can import your character and have the stats and some of your equipment, but the story never changes.

Anyway, I like the save imports and hope they stay. Carry on.

#659
Heimdall

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I like save imports as a way of keeping the world personalized between games. That being said, I don't think many specific plot points should cross over between games. Let them be fairly self contained.

#660
ManiacG

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id like to see ive made a difference no matter how small, keep them in i say...

#661
Bleachrude

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

xsamplexample wrote...

OMG i cant believe some of these ppl! why are we listenng to these fans? these fans will ruin the dam franchise if we listen to this dribble!
 

Bioware's main 'thing' is the save imports.  Been that way since bauldurs gate...
whoever thinks removing this feature will make the franchise stronger can just get out; nobody wants your opinion to be on the internet.  sorry.  go play outside or something. 


I think you should drop the "x" at the front of your name. Samplexample would be a cool play on word structure, but the x in front kind of draws the attention away, making it less effective. Just a suggestion. 

Do you have any examples of where a Save Import made a huge difference to you as a player? An instance where you thought "Yes! My choice really mattered here; I'm so glad Bioware did this!"


Rannoch, Grissom Academy, Tuchanka

For me though...I also like the *small touches* such as kasumi and Zaeed cameo, the effect of loyalty on Grunt.

Hell, I appreciate the fact that a non-Garrus playthrough simply has less banter among the crew...I don't really require BIG things to be happy when doing imports so I was easily pleased with even ME2's relative small lack of import details in the narrative and blown away by what we got in ME3.

As for the general concept of "canon", I kind of prefer the TES approach versus Bethseda's other RPG, Fallout approach.

The general conceit of the TES games is that they take place VERY far apart, either by time or distance and sometimes both. Thus, I have no problem going back and playing the earlier TES games

Conversely, I find myself with no wish to play Kotor1 given what I know about Kotor2. I don't have a problem doing this though for non RPGs or RPGs that effectively are connected....

Of course, one could argue that RPG companies shouldn't be forced to consider future games when making a game

#662
Fast Jimmy

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Rannoch, Grissom Academy, Tuchanka

For me though...I also like the *small touches* such as kasumi and Zaeed cameo, the effect of loyalty on Grunt.

Hell, I appreciate the fact that a non-Garrus playthrough simply has less banter among the crew...I don't really require BIG things to be happy when doing imports so I was easily pleased with even ME2's relative small lack of import details in the narrative and blown away by what we got in ME3.


But didn't it bother you that the genophage cure was complete, regardless of if you saved of restored its data? That if you killed Wrex, he was simply replaced with Wreav, or Mordin by Wiks? That the Geth still joined up with the Reapers, even if you rewrote their code to realize that was a bad idea? That if Jack was dead, she was replaced by just another random NPC?

The "clone factory" syndrome with ME3 really jaded me. Sure, there were little touches like Eve dying without the cure data, or Wreav being more headstrong. But, for all the information we are given by the game, none of that matters. What if Wreav was better able to control the Krogan population? What if having Eve dead makes Wrex a better commander only if the genophage wasn't cured?

Since we received no details about how our choices played out (and never will, given the ideas being kicked around about ME4 occurring neither "before, during or after ME3" ...?), then the only difference that can be seen is what the game shows us, which is very small, incremental changes.

As I've said in this thread (and others), with ME3 they stated their goal was to create truly unique outcomes, truly divergent stories, since they knew that this was the end of the trilogy and the climax to Shepherd's story. With no future content/games to worry about, they said they wanted to go all out. And ME3 was the end result. Some nods to previous choices, but entire choices ignored in most of the game.

For example... the Rachni. Thought you were making a huge choice in ME1? Thought you were making the galaxy safer if you exterminated them, or being merciful if you spared them? Nope; they'll be Frankensteined no matter what, so you might as well flip a coin during that scene at Feros.

With the DA series, things are much different. There is not the same main character from game to game. We've only seen two returning companions (Oghren and Anders) out of over two dozen characters. The locations are moved significantly from game to game. So the little camels can be even less satisfying, since we aren't giving Garrus a bro-hug or wincing when the Virmire Survivor says they don't know they can trust us. Instead, we hear "Hi, my name is Zevran... we've clearly never met before, but I'm going to act like we are old chums!"

I'd rather see less references to past choices and more developments of these story lines. Choices like who you put on the throne should tell a larger story than "hey, I'm the leader of Ferelden, just popping in here so you can see that... not sure how I heard about one lone mercernary in a whole city and knew they were trustworthy (especially when you can easily make a Hawke that is VERY untrustworthy), but don't worry about that!"

I'd rather here a continuation of the story, about how things are going after ten years. Because apparently nothing is different if Anora rules the throne alone while an unhardened Allistair soaks up ale in Kirkwall like a sponge or if a hardened Allistair and female Warden are ruling the country together. Which is quite depressing. Ditto for Harrowmont and Bhelen, who the epilogue slides in DA:O painted as being as different as night and day in terms of impact.

Does the world need to be dramatically different? Personally, I would say yes. And with giving tons of choice in games, but then defining what a canon going into the next game, the subsequent games could address the "what comes next" aspect to these storylines. We could see the Chantry on the verge of invading Orzammar because the Shaperate outlawed the Dwarven Chantry (a choice many people would not have made). They could address things like the OGB in truly deep and (in my mind) appropriate ways.

Instead, all choices are made shallow. No continuation of the story is shown... instead we are given the canon that no matter what choice you made, the world is the exact same, regardless. Who you put in the throne affects nothing. Who you killed or saved means nothing. What sides you took or what morals you expressed mean nothing... because in order to respect and accommodate everyone's choice, they have to make the resulting game have the least impact and nearly identical outcomes.

Which is the weakest canon there is.

#663
Jewlie Ghoulie

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Simply put, I will be sorely disappointed if there is no import feature. I have been tweaking all these details and am doing play throughs for all out come in Origins, Pro-Templar, and Pro-Mage in DA-II [And doing them all with all romance options], for it only to be drafted completely?! It will make me sooo sad.

But, to be honest I'm such a tool I'll sitll be DA: I because I love the entire Dragon Age series too much no to.

#664
Fast Jimmy

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Jewlie Ghoulie wrote...

Simply put, I will be sorely disappointed if there is no import feature. I have been tweaking all these details and am doing play throughs for all out come in Origins, Pro-Templar, and Pro-Mage in DA-II [And doing them all with all romance options], for it only to be drafted completely?! It will make me sooo sad.

But, to be honest I'm such a tool I'll sitll be DA: I because I love the entire Dragon Age series too much no to.


Personally, I would love it if doing the different combinations of choices resulted in vastly different outcomes in the game itself. I'd like to see things play out differently if I have Anora on the throne while Bhelen is king and the Circle was annulled. That, to me, would be more than enough reason to replay a game over and over... much moreso than having those three flags carried over to the next game just to appear in a Codex entry. 

#665
Iakus

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Jewlie Ghoulie wrote...

Simply put, I will be sorely disappointed if there is no import feature. I have been tweaking all these details and am doing play throughs for all out come in Origins, Pro-Templar, and Pro-Mage in DA-II [And doing them all with all romance options], for it only to be drafted completely?! It will make me sooo sad.

But, to be honest I'm such a tool I'll sitll be DA: I because I love the entire Dragon Age series too much no to.


I've enjoyed Dragon Age as well (both games) but playing through them just to get specific combinations of choices for the third game (and beyond) would jsut get cumbersome.

Which is why I'd likely favor a checklist.  You recall how at the start of DA2 when you import a game and it runs through a list of flags?  How about a system where you can manually check that stuff off.  plus a few others, like "What was the Warden's origin?"  "Who did Hawke romance?" stuff like that.  Basically let us set our own flags.

#666
slimgrin

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Couldn't agree more. I can't possibly see the benefit of imports when all they do is restrict the writers and limit reactivity within each iteration. All so we can have our decisions carried over...whooptydoo. All that ever amounts to is cameos and minor fanservice. A complete waste of effort.

Modifié par slimgrin, 22 avril 2013 - 06:17 .


#667
The Teyrn of Whatever

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slimgrin wrote...

Couldn't agree more. I can't possibly see the benefit of imports when all they do is restrict the writers and limit reactivity within each iteration. All so we can have our decisions carried over...whooptydoo. All that ever amounts to is cameos and minor fanservice. A complete waste of effort.


I think a lot of people overplay how much save imports restrict the writers. Personally I don't need the save import data to have a huge impacy anyway. The story of any individual Dragon Age game should be able to stand on its own merits, with the majority of save import flags relating to background info. Who is King of Orzammar should, IMHO, create more of a "Hey I remember helping him out." moment rather than having some huge impact on the main plot and gaming world. There's no reason Kirkwall or even most of Fereldan should be much affected by Orzammar.

I'm opposed to scrapping the save import, not because I believe it is a pivotal feature of the series but because I like that it allows me to create my own canon. When I'm roleplaying as the Warden in DA:O and I decide that I wish to respect my friend Alistair's opinion that he would not be well-suited to the throne and that that I happen to agree with him that he would make a lousy king, then why should DA3 make Alistair into King of Fereldan become hard canon? David Gaider obviously likes the idea of King Alistair and so he wrote some books and comics about just that. But Mr. Gaider himself has said that some aspects of his stories aren't canon with a capital 'C'.

Yes the save import flags can run the risk of having the writers write themselves into a corner, especially in the case of Morrigan's role at the end of DA:O and the continuation of that storyline in Witch Hunt. So far it seems they've simply chosen to ignore what happened to Morrigan and the Warden. I'd like them to resolve the question of what lies beyond the mirror and what it means for the world if the OGB was conceived and born, but I'd like them to do it artfully and in such a way that accounts for all possible player choices.

I hope with DA3 that the writers have an idea of what they're going to do with the next game or major expansion so that anything of consequence that ends up being transferred over to future games actually feels like it belongs.

#668
The Teyrn of Whatever

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Jewlie Ghoulie wrote...

Simply put, I will be sorely disappointed if there is no import feature. I have been tweaking all these details and am doing play throughs for all out come in Origins, Pro-Templar, and Pro-Mage in DA-II [And doing them all with all romance options], for it only to be drafted completely?! It will make me sooo sad.

But, to be honest I'm such a tool I'll sitll be DA: I because I love the entire Dragon Age series too much no to.


If they scrap the save import feature it practically negates the need to carefully construct different canons through different playthroughs and connecting different Wardens to different Hawkes and then eventually to future protagonists through file transfers.

I don't want the only reason that I play through a Dragon Age game multiple times be the simple lure of replayability. We've moved past that as a selling point. It was fine for KOTOR because they didn't have an import feature developed which could account for choices made and such things as Revan's gender, class, or alignment. It would have been nice to see that happen between KOTOR and KOTOR II (even if it was dev'd by a different company, Obsidian used the same basic engine).

I'm in favour of keeping save file imports but I hope that BioWare is devoting some time and effort to refining them and coming up with interesting ways for them to affect the story or game world (albeit in subtle ways, to be realistic).

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 22 avril 2013 - 07:29 .


#669
Fast Jimmy

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I don't want the only reason that I play through a Dragon Age game multiple times be the simple lure of replayability. We've moved past that as a selling point. It was fine for KOTOR because they didn't have an import feature developed which could account for choices made and such things as Revan's gender, class, or alignment. It would have been nice to see that happen between KOTOR and KOTOR II (even if it was dev'd by a different company, Obsidian used the same basic engine). 


See, I (strongly) disagree. Games have barely even scratched the surface of offering branching narratives and divergent stories that offer very different experiences depending on your choices within one game. Games like The Witcher 2 and The Walking Dead have shown that divergence can hit all new levels if the developers really want to push the envelope on such a feature.

Offering wildly different experiences (in terms of in-game content as well as endings) is something that can very much continue to grow and is still a very untapped area for video game design. To abandon that pursuit or to limit choice/variability in favor of a system like imports (which has existed since the Ultima games and before in various forms) that doesn't give vastly different experiences even into the games they are imported in is muting said feelings of variability, not increasing them.

I think it comes down to two schools of thought. On one side, there are those who want to have their story remembered, with a feeling of "their playthrough" being respected, even if it means the story they are being told not changing or being affected that much by their choices. On the other side, there are people who want to be offered choices and made to feel like those choices result in real, concrete differences, even if that means later games have to say the story happened differently than the individual player may have experienced.

Neither is wrong, but I can see Bioware having a heck of a time trying to create a game that meets the expectations of both mindsets.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 22 avril 2013 - 08:04 .


#670
Arppis

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"Toss it out of the airlock, Commander."

#671
The Teyrn of Whatever

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Neither is wrong, but I can see Bioware having a heck of a time trying to create a game that meets the expectations of both mindsets.


I'm sure BioWare is used to it by now. This isn't the first issue that fans have been extremely divided on and it won't be the last.

#672
Fast Jimmy

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The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Neither is wrong, but I can see Bioware having a heck of a time trying to create a game that meets the expectations of both mindsets.


I'm sure BioWare is used to it by now. This isn't the first issue that fans have been extremely divided on and it won't be the last.


True... but given how polarizing their last couple games have been, can people say they have been an doing this particularly well?

#673
archangel1996

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They already did that with ME
But the concept is great, i must say, an RPG where choices don't matter at all, just great!!!
No, seriously, u mad? u love CoD? u both?

Modifié par archangel1996, 23 avril 2013 - 01:39 .


#674
Fast Jimmy

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archangel1996 wrote...

They already did that with ME
But the concept is great, i must say, an RPG where choices don't matter at all, just great!!!
No, seriously, u mad? u love CoD? u both?


Just because a game doesn't carry every choice over from game to game doesn't mean that there was no choice.

I'm guessing you've never played... well, pretty much any game at all in recent history aside from a Bioware game or The Witcher? Because 99% of games out there with choices don't carry them over from game to game in a series. 

Your ignorance and stupidity is just oozing through your typing and word choice, by the way.

#675
Malanek

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archangel1996 wrote...

They already did that with ME
But the concept is great, i must say, an RPG where choices don't matter at all, just great!!!
No, seriously, u mad? u love CoD? u both?


Quite the opposite. Without the import feature it is actually able to show one side of every choice properly. You get to see what the old god baby does. You get to see the difference the anvil of the void makes etc etc

With the import feature there are simply not enough resources to represent these changes properly so will never see any of these have a significant effect on the world unless it cheats and also behaves the same way inspite of the choice ie rachni destroyed in me1.