895 réponses à ce sujet

[archangel1996]

Morrowind---Oblivion---Skyrim

[Bleachrude]

1. Eve and the data
I would say Eve's death is VERY important. The only way you can talk Mordin down is if Eve is dead and Wreav is present, otherwise you will have to shoot him....(mordin will tell you eve is dead or alive just before he goes up to the top of the shroud).

It becomes a crap shoot though if Wreav is present and Eve is alive..."Do you believe that Eve is strong enough to keep Wreav in line with her plans?"

2. Wrex and Wreav
Throughout the entire arc, Wreav straight up tells you what he is going to do (the ending slide with Wreav and genophage cured shows this with the krogans on the warpath...) as does Wrex. (wrex alive and genophage cured is the one with the slides where the krogans are focused on rebuilding)

3. Geth herectics.
I'm not talking the EMS aspect...the golden path of peace between geth and quarians is harder to do with the heretics alive.

You HAVE to have both Tali and Legion there and you have to have both loyal with Tali not being exiled to even have a chance. While rewriting the heretics isn't an automatic failure like Tali being dead, the point loss from that can be what pushes many playthroughs to having to pick either the geth or the quarian.

Modifié par Bleachrude, 23 avril 2013 - 12:59 .

[LTD]

No.

[Seboist]

Bleachrude wrote...

1. Eve and the data
I would say Eve's death is VERY important. The only way you can talk Mordin down is if Eve is dead and Wreav is present, otherwise you will have to shoot him....(mordin will tell you eve is dead or alive just before he goes up to the top of the shroud).

It becomes a crap shoot though if Wreav is present and Eve is alive..."Do you believe that Eve is strong enough to keep Wreav in line with her plans?"

2. Wrex and Wreav
Throughout the entire arc, Wreav straight up tells you what he is going to do (the ending slide with Wreav and genophage cured shows this with the krogans on the warpath...) as does Wrex. (wrex alive and genophage cured is the one with the slides where the krogans are focused on rebuilding)

3. Geth herectics.
I'm not talking the EMS aspect...the golden path of peace between geth and quarians is harder to do with the heretics alive.

You HAVE to have both Tali and Legion there and you have to have both loyal with Tali not being exiled to even have a chance. While rewriting the heretics isn't an automatic failure like Tali being dead, the point loss from that can be what pushes many playthroughs to having to pick either the geth or the quarian.

All that is a bunch of fluff that has zero impact on gameplay and merely provides interchangable cutscenes that have no serious impact on the story. The rest of the game plays the same no matter what one did on Rannoch or Tuchanka.

There isn't a single game whose handling of import choices is equal to or better than a stand-alone game's choices(Ex. New Vegas, Witcher 2, etc).

[Allan Schumacher]

All that is a bunch of fluff that has zero impact on gameplay and merely provides interchangable cutscenes that have no serious impact on the story. The rest of the game plays the same no matter what one did on Rannoch or Tuchanka.

Just to be clear, are you then stating that the difference with Eve is effectively uninteresting and of no significant value?

[mp91]

alistair, the low birds population talk (if you had shale in dao), the (very small) scene that result in siding with the werewolf or not.... are all very nice, and i would enjoy it keeped on in daI, it feels more personal but i'd prefer we had more choices in the game we play at the moment:
------ in dao each of the mains quests can be done by choosing a different side (werewolf/dalish, mage/templar.....) it didn't change the game but you could roleplay it better
-------not much of that in da2 : you can't change the outcome of your mother's quest..... it's with the sibling you have the most choice (taking them in the dwarf mine has impact)
-----the same could be said about ME1 (wrex, rachni (thx me3 for ruining my choice), kaidan, ashley.... and ME2 ( i don't call suicide mission survival "choices", you pretty much gain theirs loyauty and that's it


import are nice but i would prefer the games to stay away from one an other, so we don't get recon,
------- i didn't kill leliana but i feel for those who did (even if it is supposed to be explained in da3)
i would hate to have my "big choices" reconed in the coming game

da2 was very good in that regard : hawk escape from a place you visited (did quests.....) because of the darkspaws in dao that was enought to link the 2 games, the cameos gave a feeling of continuite but didn't reconed what you did in dao, i hope daI goes that way

[archangel1996]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

All that is a bunch of fluff that has zero impact on gameplay and merely provides interchangable cutscenes that have no serious impact on the story. The rest of the game plays the same no matter what one did on Rannoch or Tuchanka.

Just to be clear, are you then stating that the difference with Eve is effectively uninteresting and of no significant value?

It is interesting the first time one plays the game, after that one realizes that nothing changes simply because all that matters in that game are War Assets
Krogan no krogan, geth no geth, i still get the same 3 endings and the same 3 ending images
By the way, can i hope in an answer for the question i made in the DA twitter thread reguarding the quite important bug(s) still present in the console version of DA:O and DA:A?

Modifié par archangel1996, 23 avril 2013 - 02:15 .

[Fast Jimmy]

To put the discussion in the proper context, having Eve affects nothing in game, other than the speculation of what some characters think might happen. The only demonstrable difference is the EMS. And, to put that further into perspective, I'll say it this way - Eve's EMS boost is worth less than 15 minutes of MP.

You can headcanon more importance to such decisions and inferences, but such headcanoning is no more valid or substantial than Indoctrination Theory.

[hoorayforicecream]

archangel1996 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

All that is a bunch of fluff that has zero impact on gameplay and merely provides interchangable cutscenes that have no serious impact on the story. The rest of the game plays the same no matter what one did on Rannoch or Tuchanka.

Just to be clear, are you then stating that the difference with Eve is effectively uninteresting and of no significant value?

It is interesting the first time one plays the game, after that one realizes that nothing changes simply because all that matters in that game are War Assets
Krogan no krogan, geth no geth, i still get the same 3 endings and the same 3 ending images
By the way, can i hope in an answer for the question i made in the DA twitter thread reguarding the quite important bug(s) still present in the console version of DA:O and DA:A?

Using this logic, wouldn't the "ending epilogue" text placards in DAO for each character be equally uninteresting and of no significant value?

[Fast Jimmy]

^

On the contrary, I say it does the exact opposite. The slides show the ramifications and outcomes of your choices.

ME3 slides, by comparison, don't tell us anything. If Eve and Wrex live and you cure the genophage, you see a picture of a Krogan baby. That doesn't tell us squat. Of course the Krogan had babies - they breed more rapidly than flies. Did they choose a peaceful path? A warlike one? Did they antagonize the rest of the galaxy? Or leave it in peace?

We don't know. Because the slide gave us absolutely zero information.

All slides are not created equal. DA:O's slides are infinitely better at demonstrating choice and consequence than ME3's.

[hoorayforicecream]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

On the contrary, I say it does the exact opposite. The slides show the ramifications and outcomes of your choices.

ME3 slides, by comparison, don't tell us anything. If Eve and Wrex live and you cure the genophage, you see a picture of a Krogan baby. That doesn't tell us squat. Of course the Krogan had babies - they breed more rapidly than flies. Did they choose a peaceful path? A warlike one? Did they antagonize the rest of the galaxy? Or leave it in peace?

We don't know. Because the slide gave us absolutely zero information.

All slides are not created equal. DA:O's slides are infinitely better at demonstrating choice and consequence than ME3's.

To put the discussion in the proper context, having the DAO ending placards affects nothing in game, other than the speculation of what some characters think might happen. The only demonstrable difference is the text. And, to put that further into perspective, I'll say it this way - the placards are mostly ignored by the next game anyway.

[Fast Jimmy]

It's not what "some character thinks." It is what the narrator states happens. There is a world of difference between the two.

In DA:O you have dwarves who call Bhelen a monster and say Harrowmont is a good man. That is what some in-game characters think. Yet we find out that if you name Harrowmont, the "good man," as king and give him the Anvil, he eventually uses that power to kill every casteless in Dust Town. Not exactly the actions of a "good man," but the writing is on the wall when you go back and look at the hints in the game.

And the fact that future games don't elaborate on these consequences (or any consequences) of these choices is an indictment of the Import system, not of providing consequences in your endings.

[hoorayforicecream]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

It's not what "some character thinks." It is what the narrator states happens. There is a world of difference between the two.

In DA:O you have dwarves who call Bhelen a monster and say Harrowmont is a good man. That is what some in-game characters think. Yet we find out that if you name Harrowmont, the "good man," as king and give him the Anvil, he eventually uses that power to kill every casteless in Dust Town. Not exactly the actions of a "good man," but the writing is on the wall when you go back and look at the hints in the game.

And the fact that future games don't elaborate on these consequences (or any consequences) of these choices is an indictment of the Import system, not of providing consequences in your endings.

If they have no effect other than just headcanon text that's mostly ignored by the next game, what makes this headcanon text different from the headcanon speculation of the ME3 ending? The fact that it's text that may or may not be recognized later, rather than narration that may or may not be recognized later?

ME3 was more open-ended about it than DAO's. But they're still both only for show with no real gameplay effect. Bakara has a greater gameplay effect than DAO's ending text.

[fchopin]

I would be very happy if Bioware stop with save imports for all their games and start making stand alone games with good stories. I do not think i would want more than 3 DA games as i am getting bored with the DA2 story already and want something different.

The biggest sin in gaming is making players bored so please make sure there is some excitement in DA3.

[Fast Jimmy]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

If they have no effect other than just headcanon text that's mostly ignored by the next game, what makes this headcanon text different from the headcanon speculation of the ME3 ending? The fact that it's text that may or may not be recognized later, rather than narration that may or may not be recognized later?

ME3 was more open-ended about it than DAO's. But they're still both only for show with no real gameplay effect. Bakara has a greater gameplay effect than DAO's ending text.

 

I am thinking you are using the term head canon completely incorrectly.

Head canon is something you imagine happening that is never shown. An epilogue slide is events that the game stated happened as a result of your choices.

If DA:O had no epilogue slides, you could head canon that what dwarves said about Harrowmont being a good man true and he was able to use the power of the Anvil wisely and lead a new era of happiness and prosperity for the dwarves, pushing back the Darkspawn and regaining their post empire. But the DA:O Epilogue Slides state things happened (much) differently.

Similarly, you can headcanon that because Mordin/Wikks state in game that having Wrex and Eve alive to lead the Krogan could lead them to a new era of peace and prosperity that this happened... and, with ME3, you have no content to refute that claim. But you don't have any content to refute the idea that Eve and Wrex eventually had a monster divorce over what type of petunias to plant on Tuchanka which culminated in the destruction of the Krogan race and ten nearby systems.

That's why the choices have no impact - because if you can imagine anything happening, then it negates all sense of choice. I can headcanon that Control Shepherd, in his new state of enlightenment, uses Reaper science to make a clone of himself, with all relevant memories and thoughts, to go back and shack up with his LI and have 2.3 babies and a robot dog. If such a thing were possible, then it would destroy the consequence of the choice. 

[fchopin]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

If they have no effect other than just headcanon text that's mostly ignored by the next game, what makes this headcanon text different from the headcanon speculation of the ME3 ending? The fact that it's text that may or may not be recognized later, rather than narration that may or may not be recognized later?

ME3 was more open-ended about it than DAO's. But they're still both only for show with no real gameplay effect. Bakara has a greater gameplay effect than DAO's ending text.

 

I am thinking you are using the term head canon completely incorrectly.

Head canon is something you imagine happening that is never shown. An epilogue slide is events that the game stated happened as a result of your choices.

If DA:O had no epilogue slides, you could head canon that what dwarves said about Harrowmont being a good man true and he was able to use the power of the Anvil wisely and lead a new era of happiness and prosperity for the dwarves, pushing back the Darkspawn and regaining their post empire. But the DA:O Epilogue Slides state things happened (much) differently.

Similarly, you can headcanon that because Mordin/Wikks state in game that having Wrex and Eve alive to lead the Krogan could lead them to a new era of peace and prosperity that this happened... and, with ME3, you have no content to refute that claim. But you don't have any content to refute the idea that Eve and Wrex eventually had a monster divorce over what type of petunias to plant on Tuchanka which culminated in the destruction of the Krogan race and ten nearby systems.

That's why the choices have no impact - because if you can imagine anything happening, then it negates all sense of choice. I can headcanon that Control Shepherd, in his new state of enlightenment, uses Reaper science to make a clone of himself, with all relevant memories and thoughts, to go back and shack up with his LI and have 2.3 babies and a robot dog. If such a thing were possible, then it would destroy the consequence of the choice. 

Or make a new clone shepard if you like using his\\hers DNA.

[fchopin]

EntropicAngel wrote...

fchopin wrote...

The biggest sin in gaming is making players bored

This makes gamers sound like children.

...

Rather apt, I guess.

Try reading a boring book.

[Volus Warlord]

EntropicAngel wrote...

fchopin wrote...

The biggest sin in gaming is making players bored

This makes gamers sound like children.

...

Rather apt, I guess.

You know the entire gaming industry is based on who can shorten people's attention span the fastest, right?

[fchopin]

EntropicAngel wrote...

But what about more? What about a discussion on life? What about a deeper look at the difference between humanity and AI? What about an examination of the power of one man in a rapidly escalating world?

This is going to sound weird and slightly lame, but I don't play games just to be entertained. I play games to learn--about the world, about other people, about myself.

Not so say I don't buy games purely for enjoyment. I do. But most of the time I want...purpose.

Something more than hedonism--pleasure purely for the sake of pleasure.

I agree with you and i am very interested with the differences with AI intelligence and human intelligence but i don’t see anything like this in DA, in DA2 we got a magical stone and i dont see anything to interest my mind in the game.

I would love another space game with interesting discoveries and robot intelligences.
The way i look at it is give me a game to stimulate my mind or give me something pleasurable to enjoy.

Modifié par fchopin, 23 avril 2013 - 03:38 .

[robertthebard]

So let me see if I have this right:

We want more choices, and we want these choices to matter, until the next game, where we don't want you to carry any of them over. Am I doing it right?

This is why it's so hard to write games, because even if two people want the same sort of thing, if it's not done "this" way, one of them will be unhappy. No matter what a game developer does, somebody is going to be mad. In the "don't delete important scenes" thread, a short scene with Merrell being sorry about your sibling dying is considered an important cut scene, but in order to get it as one poster suggested, you have to deliberately kill your sibling. Now some might see that as a good thing, I know I didn't much care for Carver when I tried a mage run, but really, you have to just about sabotage yourself in the Deep Roads arc to get the scene, and then, what's the point? How important is that really? But to some, it was very important. Bring on the imports. I have a couple of saves I want to run in the next product.

[Fast Jimmy]

We want more choices, and we want these choices to matter, until the next game, where we don't want you to carry any of them over. Am I doing it right?

I would say no, you do not have it "right."

I would like ALL choices to matter. But that's not feasible. They would have to make entirely different games based on one choice alone.

So our options are, in future games, to do extremely shallow acknowledgement of all choices (the Import system as we see it today) or to choose the choices the writing team thinks would help them tell a stronger story and go deeper with those decisions.

It's a question of either valuing the ability for further development of story lines, or valuing the illusion that your previous choices resulted in a truly different world, even though it doesn't.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 23 avril 2013 - 05:21 .

[robertthebard]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

We want more choices, and we want these choices to matter, until the next game, where we don't want you to carry any of them over. Am I doing it right?

I would say no, you do not have it "right."

I would like ALL choices to matter. But that's not feasible. They would have to make entirely different games based on one choice alone.

So our options are, in future games, to do extremely shallow acknowledgement of all choices (the Import system as we see it today) or to choose the choices the writing team thinks would help them tell a stronger story and go deeper with those decisions.

It's a question of either valuing the ability for further development of story lines, or valuing the illusion that your previous choices resulted in a truly different world, even though it doesn't.

Reads this post, re-reads topic title.  Yeah, sarcasm doesn't carry over well, sometimes.  The rest of my previous post serves to spell that out though.