895 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Stella-Arc wrote...

So, if I am reading this correctly, people want the Save Import removed because they don't see the consequences to their actions and instead have a "set canon"?

Isn't that the same thing? Instead of seeing subtle references to YOUR choices, regardless if it's minor, you instead get nothing unless you're one the lucky ones who did play in the way that is similar to the "set canon".

*scratches head*

What?

That's not what I'm saying, at least.

I'm saying that save imports in the long run are not sustainable.  That in the end the variables will become too much.  Dragon Age will end up having some kind of Crisis on the Infinite Thedases" event to reset everything, or something eequally drastic.

I'm also saying that rather than imports, we should have a set list of past choices that would apply to the current Dragon Age story, and be able to manually set the flags as we choose.  Something more comprehensive than a Genesis comic, more like a  Dragon Age version of a save editor.  This is simply a convenience issue.  Both for players and (I'm assuming) the developers.

[jillabender]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

It not a matter of "seeing references if you are the lucky one." That is not what I am advocating.

Maybe it would be best if I gave an example.

In nearly every playthrough I did in DA:O, I saved the Anvil. I saw it as a way to defeat the Darkspawn eventually, to offer a true way to stop the Blight and a way to prevent the Dwarven nation from becoming extinct by the slow erosion of Darkspawn forces.

But, most people did not choose that, since it is not a "good" option. So the writers decide not to make it canon. Cool, that's fine.

Instead, they tell the story of how, with the Anvil destroyed and the surface armies occupied with fighting each other, the Darkspawn have broken through. Orzammar faces true extinction, true annihilation. They must now face either certain death or forgoe the old ways and all become surfacers, losing all their heritage.

That would be a deep, gut wrenching elaboration of the choice. How an entire people had to deal with the loss of their world, the loss of their identity. How the world was changed by one decision.

Now... tell me, does that sound better than a cameo? I'd say it does, for what my opinion is worth. But it could never be told with the Save Import, because the game must accommodate both choices in their follow-ups. A cameo is easy... an entire culture disappearing for a certain group of players is not.

I completely agree that having the game investigate the consequences of a past choice is better than accommodating many past choices, when those choices were made by a different character in a different game - a character with no relationship to the character in this game.

Within the game, those choices are important, but once the game is over I'd rather they focus on making the next game better, rather than continuing to accommdate all possible past choices from the earlier game.

Very well put - that's how I feel about it as well.

I also agree with Allan, though, that not every choice needs to have far-reaching consequences - in some cases, the focus can be on the motivations for the choice and what it says about a character, and the consequences don't really need to be touched on again.

Modifié par jillabender, 24 avril 2013 - 12:56 .

[EdwinLi]

EntropicAngel wrote...

iakus wrote...

Heh, to this day, even knowing what it means for Orzammar, I have a harad time choosing Bhelen.  The guy is total slime 

Interesting--I can't choose Harrowmont. Bhelen has a casteless mistress that he's planning to lift to royal status, Bhelen wants to increase trade with the rest of the world...while Harrowmont wants to rot in a darkspawn-infested pit and hold onto his individuality while lying to/bribing people to vote for him.

I fail to see how anyone but a dwarven traditionalist or...I can't even think of a reason why an elf or human would choose Harrowmont.

While Bhelen does start out good in his rule but as it progressed he locked up orzammar like Harrowmont would but this time he rules with a Iron fist while treating everyone under his rule like casteless. Anyone who defies him will "dissappear" suddenly.

not to mention in Dwarf noble intro you see his true colors when he not only trick you but frames the murder on you.

Modifié par EdwinLi, 24 avril 2013 - 01:03 .

[Nightdragon8]

Not every choice needs far reaching effects now I suspect that in reality that the mage templar war end up getting put on hold because of events in DA3 so there can be allot of writable things after DA3

Major eevents like OGC and wither morigan lives can change how they act I think coner should get a mention if you did the accept the deal

So I dont see why they need to get rid of it

[EdwinLi]

EntropicAngel wrote...

EdwinLi wrote...

While Bhelen does start out good in his rule but as it progressed he locked up orzammar like Harrowmont would but this time he rules with a Iron fist while treating everyone under his rule like casteless. Anyone who defies him will "dissappear" suddenly.

not to mention in Dwarf noble intro you see his true colors when he not only trick you but frames the murder on you.

What you're talking about happens in an epilogue slide--it has no bearing on the choice.

Though, I've yet to play the dwarven noble origin so I didn't know about that. Say no more, please--best left unspoiled.

Well you should of encountered a Dwarf named Harrowmont (not the same harrowmont from DA:O) in DA2 then if you imported data that with Bhelen as king of Orzammar in Act 1 of DA2. The side quest will explain how bad Bhelen's rule has been.

Modifié par EdwinLi, 24 avril 2013 - 01:10 .

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So Bioware won't likely ever use it again. It is too difficult; too narratively charged. It will be tucked into a dark corner and hopefully forgotten. Or, if they do use it, it will either be magically repaired somehow (negating the choice of you destroying it) or it will be magically broken somehow (negating your decision to preserve it).

I disagree with this, Jimmy. A choice is a choice--it doesn't matter if the world accepts that choice.

 

 

Choice can have importance without consequence, yes. But without any knowledge at all, it becomes vapor. You can struggle against something and come out the other side with the same outcome despite different outcomes. TWD did this often, to good effect.

But to have no idea on the outcomes at all, like in ME3, it makes not only the choice presents in game, but the choices made in previous games, as unsubstantial. Over a half a dozen choices could set things up for how the genophage is built up in ME3. It involved hard choices and even sacrifice, such as Mordin... all forgone in lack of clarity. We can act like our choices resulted in things as dark, light, grim or comical as we wish in all of the lack of information... which means that it is just as likely that the galaxy is destroyed by an intergalactic marital dispute between Eve and Wrex as it is if Wreav muscled his way into Krogan power without going to war with the Council.

However, let's look at another example.

In ME2, you were able to express the choice of saying "I am pro-human and pro-Cerebeurs" when talking to TIM. But this choice is not carried over into ME3, for us to act like we did anything but fight against Cereberus. In a case like that, is that a situation where the choice was more important than the consequence that came about from it?

[Homebound]

i think they need to start fresh after this. everythings all convoluted now.

[MKDAWUSS]

I think they can continue this, but they can phase flags out. If they're tangential or unrelated to the current story (or upcoming story), they can be dropped from recognition. If no DA2 companions appear in DA3, what's the point of recognizing the romance flag? If we're not going to see Orzammar, what's the point of remembering who's king or what happened to the AOTV?

[Ravensword]

It's looking more and more like save imports should be taken out. What's the point of having a save import if the PC is gonna be a different character and the choices have no consequences? Makes sense.

[Fast Jimmy]

EdwinLi wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

EdwinLi wrote...

While Bhelen does start out good in his rule but as it progressed he locked up orzammar like Harrowmont would but this time he rules with a Iron fist while treating everyone under his rule like casteless. Anyone who defies him will "dissappear" suddenly.

not to mention in Dwarf noble intro you see his true colors when he not only trick you but frames the murder on you.

What you're talking about happens in an epilogue slide--it has no bearing on the choice.

Though, I've yet to play the dwarven noble origin so I didn't know about that. Say no more, please--best left unspoiled.

Well you should of encountered a Dwarf named Harrowmont (not the same harrowmont from DA:O) in DA2 then if you imported data that with Bhelen as king of Orzammar in Act 1 of DA2. The side quest will explain how bad Bhelen's rule has been.

Not really, from my recollection. There is just mention that he and his family are being hunted down... which is not great, but removal of those who have claims to the throne is standard practice, especially in cut throat nobility like what we see with the Dwarves. 

Unless I am totally misremembering things. 

[robertthebard]

Lathrim wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

EdwinLi wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

EdwinLi wrote...

While Bhelen does start out good in his rule but as it progressed he locked up orzammar like Harrowmont would but this time he rules with a Iron fist while treating everyone under his rule like casteless. Anyone who defies him will "dissappear" suddenly.

not to mention in Dwarf noble intro you see his true colors when he not only trick you but frames the murder on you.

What you're talking about happens in an epilogue slide--it has no bearing on the choice.

Though, I've yet to play the dwarven noble origin so I didn't know about that. Say no more, please--best left unspoiled.

Well you should of encountered a Dwarf named Harrowmont (not the same harrowmont from DA:O) in DA2 then if you imported data that with Bhelen as king of Orzammar in Act 1 of DA2. The side quest will explain how bad Bhelen's rule has been.

Not really, from my recollection. There is just mention that he and his family are being hunted down... which is not great, but removal of those who have claims to the throne is standard practice, especially in cut throat nobility like what we see with the Dwarves. 

Unless I am totally misremembering things. 

That is what I remember as well.

That's how I remember it.  It seems to me that the end slides actually show that Bhelen was the better choice anyway, despite how much I despised him in my DN playthrough.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

For roleplaying reasons, consequences don't matter. But for narrative reasons, they are intrinsically important. The two are not inherently the same.

[Heimdall]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Not really, from my recollection. There is just mention that he and his family are being hunted down... which is not great, but removal of those who have claims to the throne is standard practice, especially in cut throat nobility like what we see with the Dwarves. 

Unless I am totally misremembering things. 

Well, he does say that Bhelen is killing the entirety of House Harrowmont merely for being related to Lord Harrowmont.  They have no claims to the throne, especially after a Paragon settling the issue, so its a bit cruel and unusual.

[Heimdall]

EntropicAngel wrote...
I don't really agree about the Urn--it lends tremendous credence to the validity of Andrasteism.

It's kind of like the Dead Sea Scrolls. That's probably a horrid analogy, but it's the best I can think of offhand.

So I would agree with Jimmy that outcomes on these can't--truly can't--be shown like they deserve.

I, however, would argue that these are choices that the player should not be making. No grunt makes these kinds of decisions in real life--it's unrealistic that they should in these games. It feels patronizing.

I think I've said this before.

It validates Andraste's existence, but her existence is not in question in Thedas.  Most of the population faithfully follows the Chantry in one form or another.  I don't see it changing a great deal.  It might spark some academic discussion but in terms of Thedosion society, culture, and politics, it doesn't actually bring anything new to the table or prove anything most people didn't already believe.

I sort of agree about it being patronizing though.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 24 avril 2013 - 03:52 .