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[Wulfram]

robertthebard wrote...

Would it matter why Hawke supported the mages?  Will the mages know "Oh, Hawke just did that to get in bed with Anders"?  Won't they just see the reality of "Hawke supported the mages"?  Motivations don't matter when the end result is "Hawke supported the mages".

I agree.  But the game needs to be careful not to extrapolate things to Hawke necessarily continuing to support the mages after the end of DA2.

[Little Princess Peach]

robertthebard wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

What choices, specifically, from DA2 would you like to see carried over? And what would be a satisfying way to have them carried over for you, personally?

I hope I don't get yelled at but this is how I feel about things.

I would like the ackowlagement that my Hawke was pro mage, all the way from start to finish (mainly because she was a mage) for example, when we see mages fighting maybe some of them can use Hawkes name as a Battle cry or somthing.

The side quests helping the wardens, I want to see if  Stopping those Nobles that escaped Amaranthine were punished, maybe the new pc can find a note if she went to Denerim, saying We managed to sort out the situation the nobles will be charged so on and so forth.

the Battle with the Arashock, I would like that to be ackowlaged, if he said we will return have a small group of Quanari invade a town, if he said we will not  come back have someone sign a peace form.

also this is origins related but If my warden was nice to the mages and helped the Tower I would want someone somehwere to go hey, the warden helped the mages in ferelden.

Romances, If I romanced Anders I would like a reference a diary or a codex or somthing, I want that feeling that my old pc was in the Dragon age universe, even if we can't pla Hawke and the warden again I personally would love to have them intergrated in the world, not just brushed aside like yesterdays news.

so I don't care how small the quest if it was related to the wardens and we have a warden in the new group of nutjobs then please let them say somthing about it, for example my warden met the dalish my warden killed a giant dragon, my hawke was a mage who helped the wardens, she went into the deep roads and caused all sort of hell.

the list just goes on but this is what I would like to see.

not juyst some random oh yeah he/she exited the end, most of the gamers spent alot of hours with Hawke and the warden, and all those side quests and main quests are just going to waste.

I see. 

In regards to your first suggestion, about how you would like the game to reference how you played a Pro-Mage Hawke... is it not possible that Hawke may have supported the Mages throughout DA2 and not been pro-Mage? For instance, what if Hawke was trying to protect his sister? Or impress LI Anders? Or just really tick off Fenris? Couldn't there be multiple instances where you can imagine a Hawke who made a decision, but who may have not been, in fact Pro-Mage/Pro-Templar, etc.? 

i realize such a recognition by you would sound great... but by someone else who made the same decision for different reasons, having Hawke as a Battle Cry for the Mages might be cringe-inducing. While your Universe gets supported, their's becomes diminished. Can you see where things like that might be tricky to deal with?

Would it matter why Hawke supported the mages?  Will the mages know "Oh, Hawke just did that to get in bed with Anders"?  Won't they just see the reality of "Hawke supported the mages"?  Motivations don't matter when the end result is "Hawke supported the mages".

well put, most mages would not care why Hawke supports the mages they can have there "speculation", but at the end of the dark templar infested day Hawke supported the mages and I would like to see that akwaolaged somehow, have a flag A suppoted the mages, flag B is Templar friendly, it dose not have to be so hard if you just simplify things.

[Fast Jimmy]

robertthebard wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

iiReaperZz wrote...

That's a horrible decision, the community would be in an uproar.

They need to allow us to edit our imports to make sure everythings the way it should be, as I've not had a single completely successful import into DA2.

But even for those imports that did function correctly, did you find them satisfying or enjoyable? Did you have a particular Import outcome that really "sealed the deal" for you in DA2? Or, conversely, the ME series?

I actually did.  It was nice to have Wrex when I was supposed to have Wrex, and conversely, even though for me it didn't come up, Wreav when I was supposed to have Wreav.  It was nice, when it worked, to have Liara acknowledge that the one time I did romance her that it happened.  Note that I had to force that one to work with gibbed's editor, since the import function failed at that, but, once fixed, and working as intended it was nice to see.  It's nice to see the VS be who it's supposed to be.  You see, these are part of the import function.  Yes, the game has default settings for them, but when you play the previous titles, it's nice to see that what you chose is what happened.

So if they were to just canon a certain path, and disregard choices they offered initially, it comes down to why even bother to allow the choices.  Canon the path from the start and be done with it.  Wanting to kill it now makes less sense than running with it and trying to improve upon it.  I finished a run of Origins last night, and started Awakening this morning.  Howe is a Warden, if it doesn't carry over that way into DA 2, why bother with Awakening, I may as well have not purchased it.  Since the events transpire anyway, I could have spent that money elsewhere.  So no, removing the save import is bad, especially at this juncture.

But what about the further development of the story? You made the choice... wouldn't you like the game to carry the story forward, instead of just referencing it? 

Howe is a Warden if you made him one... okay, good. But does that take his story arc on any further? Does the develop him as a character? 

Or, for instance, let's take everyone's favorite choice to nitpick... the Dark Ritual. If you did it, your Warden is still among the living and there is the soul of a deity walking around in human form in the world. If you didn't do it, your Warden is dead and Morrigan has no soul-child. Would you like the game to just reference this choice, or continue the story? What does it mean to have an OGB in the world? Or where has the Warden gone to? 

But they are less likely to give these subjects much more than a small bit of content simply because there are many people who made different choices. The OGB can't be a huge impact on the world, simply because the world will need to still be the same (for resources sake) for those players who made a different choice. Having the Warden alive in DA3 can't be that big of a deal, simply because other people's Wardens are dead and gone.

The Import actively prevents continuation of story lines. The best it does is references. And I think that is a huge loss for such a little gain.

[Fast Jimmy]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

What choices, specifically, from DA2 would you like to see carried over? And what would be a satisfying way to have them carried over for you, personally?

I hope I don't get yelled at but this is how I feel about things.

I would like the ackowlagement that my Hawke was pro mage, all the way from start to finish (mainly because she was a mage) for example, when we see mages fighting maybe some of them can use Hawkes name as a Battle cry or somthing.

The side quests helping the wardens, I want to see if  Stopping those Nobles that escaped Amaranthine were punished, maybe the new pc can find a note if she went to Denerim, saying We managed to sort out the situation the nobles will be charged so on and so forth.

the Battle with the Arashock, I would like that to be ackowlaged, if he said we will return have a small group of Quanari invade a town, if he said we will not  come back have someone sign a peace form.

also this is origins related but If my warden was nice to the mages and helped the Tower I would want someone somehwere to go hey, the warden helped the mages in ferelden.

Romances, If I romanced Anders I would like a reference a diary or a codex or somthing, I want that feeling that my old pc was in the Dragon age universe, even if we can't pla Hawke and the warden again I personally would love to have them intergrated in the world, not just brushed aside like yesterdays news.

so I don't care how small the quest if it was related to the wardens and we have a warden in the new group of nutjobs then please let them say somthing about it, for example my warden met the dalish my warden killed a giant dragon, my hawke was a mage who helped the wardens, she went into the deep roads and caused all sort of hell.

the list just goes on but this is what I would like to see.

not juyst some random oh yeah he/she exited the end, most of the gamers spent alot of hours with Hawke and the warden, and all those side quests and main quests are just going to waste.

I see. 

In regards to your first suggestion, about how you would like the game to reference how you played a Pro-Mage Hawke... is it not possible that Hawke may have supported the Mages throughout DA2 and not been pro-Mage? For instance, what if Hawke was trying to protect his sister? Or impress LI Anders? Or just really tick off Fenris? Couldn't there be multiple instances where you can imagine a Hawke who made a decision, but who may have not been, in fact Pro-Mage/Pro-Templar, etc.? 

i realize such a recognition by you would sound great... but by someone else who made the same decision for different reasons, having Hawke as a Battle Cry for the Mages might be cringe-inducing. While your Universe gets supported, their's becomes diminished. Can you see where things like that might be tricky to deal with?

Would it matter why Hawke supported the mages?  Will the mages know "Oh, Hawke just did that to get in bed with Anders"?  Won't they just see the reality of "Hawke supported the mages"?  Motivations don't matter when the end result is "Hawke supported the mages".

well put, most mages would not care why Hawke supports the mages they can have there "speculation", but at the end of the dark templar infested day Hawke supported the mages and I would like to see that akwaolaged somehow, have a flag A suppoted the mages, flag B is Templar friendly, it dose not have to be so hard if you just simplify things.

The "acknowledged somehow" part is where most people have problems.

Many people would say "I supported the Mages in DA2 and all I got was a different Battle Cry?" Since that was one of the only real choices offered in the game that dealt directly with the game's plot, it may seem like way too small of a decision, especially with the Mage/Templar conflict looking to have a pretty large portion of the story for the game.

I realize that such a small thing may work for you, but could you understand people wanting (and expecting) a much higher level of divergence in their experience because of it?

[robertthebard]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But what about the further development of the story? You made the choice... wouldn't you like the game to carry the story forward, instead of just referencing it? 

Howe is a Warden if you made him one... okay, good. But does that take his story arc on any further? Does the develop him as a character? 

Or, for instance, let's take everyone's favorite choice to nitpick... the Dark Ritual. If you did it, your Warden is still among the living and there is the soul of a deity walking around in human form in the world. If you didn't do it, your Warden is dead and Morrigan has no soul-child. Would you like the game to just reference this choice, or continue the story? What does it mean to have an OGB in the world? Or where has the Warden gone to? 

But they are less likely to give these subjects much more than a small bit of content simply because there are many people who made different choices. The OGB can't be a huge impact on the world, simply because the world will need to still be the same (for resources sake) for those players who made a different choice. Having the Warden alive in DA3 can't be that big of a deal, simply because other people's Wardens are dead and gone.

The Import actively prevents continuation of story lines. The best it does is references. And I think that is a huge loss for such a little gain.

Ah, the DR, and it seems like we touched on this earlier in the thread, and my opinion hasn't varied, they wrote themselves into a corner with that one.  The problem isn't with the import though, it's with how the import is handled, such as good ol' Nate.  He gets what amounts to a cameo.  This isn't because it was imported, it's because that's what the writers did with it, in DA 2.  The import doesn't actively block anything, the writer's handling of it can.  However, since we have 2 chapters of a story, can we really say what's important and what's not?  I believe I have already touched on this too.  Somebody said it was two separate stories, and I pointed out that it was two separate games, but one story.  We don't know what's coming, so we can't say "that didn't matter".

[Fast Jimmy]

But Bioware won't create more than cameos. That's what we have basically found out through three games of imports. Cameos are the pinnacle of their wheelhouse when it comes to imports.

Wrex is probably the most involved character who could be dead in any Bioware game. There are multiple scenes with him (in ME2 and ME3), in multiple locations (Tuchanka in ME2, Sur'Kesh, Tuchanka again in ME3), but even then, that is at the cost of making the genophage cure canon and also deploying clone machines for Wrex (Wreav) and Mordin (Wiks). Having Eve alive or dead adds some extra dialouge about the struggles of the Krogan females in being fertile, but it doesn't change the outcome of the ending except who, of these characters, is alive or dead. And even then, this was done with only one character in ME3. If Liara is the canon LI in ME as some claim, then Wrex is the canon survivor. Bioware went to great lengths, lengths not seen with any other character in any other game, to make his character experience big if he survived. Which made quite a few players who killed him to (what they thought was) protecting the galaxy feel more than a little marginalized.

I have heard the thread that the Imports aren't bad, they just need to fix them... but it seems to me that after three games, we haven't seen much progress on that front. Yet we can see examples where stories that could have been continued, developed or done interesting things instead left the entire narrative on the wayside multiple times. How long should the negative price to the game be paid while the payout is still so small?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 02 mai 2013 - 02:01 .

[robertthebard]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The "acknowledged somehow" part is where most people have problems.

Many people would say "I supported the Mages in DA2 and all I got was a different Battle Cry?" Since that was one of the only real choices offered in the game that dealt directly with the game's plot, it may seem like way too small of a decision, especially with the Mage/Templar conflict looking to have a pretty large portion of the story for the game.

I realize that such a small thing may work for you, but could you understand people wanting (and expecting) a much higher level of divergence in their experience because of it?

So just how are they going to get that with no imports?  Canon choices?  So you support the Templars, load DA I and find out you supported the mages?

Here's the thing; supporting the mages or the Templars is one of the major choices.  Did you take your sibling to the deep roads?  Did they die or become a Warden.  Is this important within the context of this game?  No, probably not, and it's not important in the context of the story so far.  But that's the problem isn't it?  The story so far.  Again; these are not separate stories, but chapters in a story.  In the course of telling the story, choices are made.  Some of these choices are insignificant to the tale:  Did you sleep with Isabela in Origins.  Some, not so much; did the Warden die killing the Archdemon, or did Loghain die, or Alistair, or no one?  Did Alistair become King with Anora locked in the tower, or as his Queen?  Is the Warden the Queen?  All of these choices are significant in the ending of Origins, but some are only marginally significant in DA 2, but, may still play a role later.  If Anora is Alistair's Queen, is she going to get tired of Alistair's childish ways and off him?  She certainly can come off that way in Eamon's estate.  She can even go on about it during the celebration after, just saw it last night.  So wouldn't this be something that might matter to the story as a whole, as opposed to:  Well, that game is over, so I can forget about it, even though the next game takes place both parallel and after the events in the first.

We don't know.  We don't know how many different ways those choices can play out, and we don't know what those choices might change from one playthrough to the next.  Some things could be minor, like battle cries, or dialog choices that won't happen if you never had x scenario go down.  What does that do?  Replayability.  What happens if I do this in Origins, and that in DA 2?  Despite how the ending works out, there are a few variations on the theme in ME that would be impossible w/out save imports.

[robertthebard]

Wulfram wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Would it matter why Hawke supported the mages?  Will the mages know "Oh, Hawke just did that to get in bed with Anders"?  Won't they just see the reality of "Hawke supported the mages"?  Motivations don't matter when the end result is "Hawke supported the mages".

I agree.  But the game needs to be careful not to extrapolate things to Hawke necessarily continuing to support the mages after the end of DA2.

True.  We have no idea what becomes of Hawke after DA 2.  It could be written that Hawke does indeed continue to support the mages, but we have Varric and Cassandra's session to cast doubt on that.  This is, I think, the thing that's throwing most people off though, we're playing the same story over multiple games, but we're not playing the same protagonist.  So people start thinking it doesn't matter what happens in X situation, because at the end, that character is gone.  BioWare wrote themselves into a corner, for example, on the DR.  It may have started out as a plot device to prevent killing the Warden, or it may have been intended for bigger things, but the fan reaction was so varied, some dead set against, others just as adamantly for it, that it's now a time bomb waiting to blow up in their faces.

[Fast Jimmy]

robertthebard wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The "acknowledged somehow" part is where most people have problems.

Many people would say "I supported the Mages in DA2 and all I got was a different Battle Cry?" Since that was one of the only real choices offered in the game that dealt directly with the game's plot, it may seem like way too small of a decision, especially with the Mage/Templar conflict looking to have a pretty large portion of the story for the game.

I realize that such a small thing may work for you, but could you understand people wanting (and expecting) a much higher level of divergence in their experience because of it?

So just how are they going to get that with no imports?  Canon choices?  So you support the Templars, load DA I and find out you supported the mages?

Canon choices can allow TONS of levels of plot development. AND choice divergence.

Let's say DA2 offered you tons of choice. The types of choice people have been clamouring about since the game came out. Say you can team up with Anders right from the get go, helping protect Mages. Say this lead to lots of custom content, where you struggle against the Templars and many things play out different (like, say Act 2 of the Witcher 2). Or say you can choose to go after the the Viscount position, or you can support the Qunari, or you can convince Merril to go back to the Dalish... any number of things. Wildly divergent outcomes within the game. Endings that leave things in such radically different places as the developers can afford to place resources into.

And, then, DA3 starts and it is basically the canon is set where the ending we got at the end of DA2 today was how things played out. Maybe it even says Hawke took the (currently non-existent) neutral position, just to avoid deliberately stepping on any toes. It lets the game say if Merril is back with her clan, or if Anders was murder knifed or not, or if Feynriel has become a powerful sominari or he died back in Kirkwall.

It can let the players make real decisions and have real choices, instead of saying constantly throughout the game "You picked A... but you really meant to pick B. Let us fix that for you." Or, possibly worse... "Last game, you had the choice of picking A or B... but we're just going to pretend like you didn't pick anything and make the entire world a rather bland C."

I would rather be given tons of choices in the game, which leads to lots of different outcomes and endings, then have the path made out before hand just to avoid having the game end in a state of things too spread out to accomodate with future Imports. 

THAT'S what a canon system could do. It could give real choices AND real consequences in future games... just maybe not the exact choices you made. I'd rather see the story developed further for a choice I didn't make than a Codex entry (and nothing else) for a choice I did.

Here's the thing; supporting the mages or the Templars is one of the major choices.  Did you take your sibling to the deep roads?  Did they die or become a Warden.  Is this important within the context of this game?  No, probably not, and it's not important in the context of the story so far.  But that's the problem isn't it?  The story so far.  Again; these are not separate stories, but chapters in a story.  In the course of telling the story, choices are made.  Some of these choices are insignificant to the tale:  Did you sleep with Isabela in Origins.  Some, not so much; did the Warden die killing the Archdemon, or did Loghain die, or Alistair, or no one?  Did Alistair become King with Anora locked in the tower, or as his Queen?  Is the Warden the Queen?  All of these choices are significant in the ending of Origins, but some are only marginally significant in DA 2, but, may still play a role later.  If Anora is Alistair's Queen, is she going to get tired of Alistair's childish ways and off him?  She certainly can come off that way in Eamon's estate.  She can even go on about it during the celebration after, just saw it last night.  So wouldn't this be something that might matter to the story as a whole, as opposed to:  Well, that game is over, so I can forget about it, even though the next game takes place both parallel and after the events in the first.

We don't know.  We don't know how many different ways those choices can play out, and we don't know what those choices might change from one playthrough to the next.  Some things could be minor, like battle cries, or dialog choices that won't happen if you never had x scenario go down.  What does that do?  Replayability.  What happens if I do this in Origins, and that in DA 2?  Despite how the ending works out, there are a few variations on the theme in ME that would be impossible w/out save imports.

So you are holding out on the idea that saving the Anvil or who you appointed king in Orzammar may come back and play a bigger role in DA3? Or DA4? While I hope you are right, I wouldn't hold my breath.

ME3's devs and writers stated that they wanted to give us loads of custom content since it was the last game in the trilogy. It was their stated goal to create totally different worlds for the player, since they didn't have to worry about how different things could be at the end, since it was the completion of the journey. Yet ME3 had more forced retcons and choices than any other Bioware game to date. Sure, there were plenty of references, but the only stories that were continued or respected were the ones Bioware wanted. If they had just done a Paragon canon Shepherd, this wouldn't have been a problem, but instead they just made it seem like the actions of any Renegade Shepherd were totally ineffective. 

It is far better, in my opinion, to tell people their choices didn't happen rather than tell them their choices didn't matter.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 02 mai 2013 - 02:16 .

[wright1978]

Wulfram wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Would it matter why Hawke supported the mages?  Will the mages know "Oh, Hawke just did that to get in bed with Anders"?  Won't they just see the reality of "Hawke supported the mages"?  Motivations don't matter when the end result is "Hawke supported the mages".

I agree.  But the game needs to be careful not to extrapolate things to Hawke necessarily continuing to support the mages after the end of DA2.

The act of supporting the mages or the templars in that one moment should/could affect the state of play/mood at the start of DAI. I don't see the need for them to extrapolate Hawke's actions thereafter.

[Fast Jimmy]

wright1978 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Would it matter why Hawke supported the mages?  Will the mages know "Oh, Hawke just did that to get in bed with Anders"?  Won't they just see the reality of "Hawke supported the mages"?  Motivations don't matter when the end result is "Hawke supported the mages".

I agree.  But the game needs to be careful not to extrapolate things to Hawke necessarily continuing to support the mages after the end of DA2.

The act of supporting the mages or the templars in that one moment should/could affect the state of play/mood at the start of DAI. I don't see the need for them to extrapolate Hawke's actions thereafter.

Any suggestions on how?

[robertthebard]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So you are holding out on the idea that saving the Anvil or who you appointed king in Orzammar may come back and play a bigger role in DA3? Or DA4? While I hope you are right, I wouldn't hold my breath.

ME3's devs and writers stated that they wanted to give us loads of custom content since it was the last game in the trilogy. It was their stated goal to create totally different worlds for the player, since they didn't have to worry about how different things could be at the end, since it was the completion of the journey. Yet ME3 had more forced retcons and choices than any other Bioware game to date. Sure, there were plenty of references, but the only stories that were continued or respected were the ones Bioware wanted. If they had just done a Paragon canon Shepherd, this wouldn't have been a problem, but instead they just made it seem like the actions of any Renegade Shepherd were totally ineffective. 

It is far better, in my opinion, to tell people their choices didn't happen rather than tell them their choices didn't matter.

I submit that it would have been better to take your view if they had never been offered, than to try to change it up now.  Some of these choices may indeed play a role later, or, as you speculate, they may not.  I'm holding the line, as I have since my initial post in this thread, that we don't know.  We don't know that a choice that wasn't covered in DA 2 won't be covered in DA I, or later.  I could take the pessimistic view that they won't ever matter, and may be right on some of them, but some of them have already come up:  Zevran's cameo is different with Isabela if you slept with her than it is if you didn't, or don't bring Isabela.  Is it game breaking?  Nope.  Is it plot essential?  No, but it can add to replayability.  Can you even get the Howe cameo if you kill him?  I haven't done that yet, so I don't know.  However, it can be different.  These flavor choices, aka fluff, don't change the game much, but they change it enough that it's interesting to replay.  Actually, don't you get a dwarf mission if Howe doesn't become a warden in Awakening?  It doesn't do crap for reused areas, but the circumstances can change, which adds variety to the game.

I know it's not a big deal to people that won't finish it, and there are probably more of those than you or I may think, but, it matters to me.  I want to see the whole story before I start going on about "choices didn't matter".

[dsl08002]

That would be a bad idea because then again playing the other two games would be useless considering that nothing matters.

Its like stiring up a hornets nest.

But i have to admit that Bioware cannot handle "choices does matter" they simply cannot handle it

[wright1978]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Would it matter why Hawke supported the mages?  Will the mages know "Oh, Hawke just did that to get in bed with Anders"?  Won't they just see the reality of "Hawke supported the mages"?  Motivations don't matter when the end result is "Hawke supported the mages".

I agree.  But the game needs to be careful not to extrapolate things to Hawke necessarily continuing to support the mages after the end of DA2.

The act of supporting the mages or the templars in that one moment should/could affect the state of play/mood at the start of DAI. I don't see the need for them to extrapolate Hawke's actions thereafter.

Any suggestions on how?

At the simplest it could act in a similar way to if you saved the council or sacrificed them in ME1. In ME2 on the Citadel through the galactic news had a very different tone to it. You could have town criers performing a similar function of setting the ambience.

You could make a positive fate for the Mages/templars easier to achieve depending on which were sided with at the end of DA2 like Rannoch/Genophage resolutions were reliant on certain factors in ME3.

[garrusfan1]

please people let this evil thread die

[CaptainBlackGold]

Coming late into this discussion but have to agree with those who point out that Bioware, for all its great characters - does not seem to handle importing decisions very well - and that they write themselves into a corner where for all practical purposes, your choices cannot matter in future games.

However, one problem I have is that I have so many different play-throughs, that it is very hard for me to have a particular canon - and to be honest, I play to a certain point and decide not to finish the actual ending (how many times do I have to defeat Meredith and Orsinio - just slogging my way through there).

So when I am asked for an imported game, I have way too many choices - and really, do not care any more about many of the "choices."

Personally, rather than importing a specific play through, I think Bioware could offer an option at the start of the game listing the "important" choices that we want to have made - and they can integrate those "choices" somehow in the game. The rest of the "choices" could then be left up to them.

[Fast Jimmy]

garrusfan1 wrote...

please people let this evil thread die

For what it's worth, I have never brought this thread back from the grave, despite all my postings here. I simply reply to those who do.

[Fast Jimmy]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Coming late into this discussion but have to agree with those who point out that Bioware, for all its great characters - does not seem to handle importing decisions very well - and that they write themselves into a corner where for all practical purposes, your choices cannot matter in future games.

However, one problem I have is that I have so many different play-throughs, that it is very hard for me to have a particular canon - and to be honest, I play to a certain point and decide not to finish the actual ending (how many times do I have to defeat Meredith and Orsinio - just slogging my way through there).

So when I am asked for an imported game, I have way too many choices - and really, do not care any more about many of the "choices."

Personally, rather than importing a specific play through, I think Bioware could offer an option at the start of the game listing the "important" choices that we want to have made - and they can integrate those "choices" somehow in the game. The rest of the "choices" could then be left up to them.

I would not be totally against this, honestly. A (small-ish) list of things that will actually affect the game at hand. Not dozens upon dozens of things that will only result in a Codex entry (of which the majority of imported decisions did).

As long as the list is kept short. I'd rather see no impact at all then be given a Codex entry as acknowledgement. For two reasons, actually. First, I'd like the Codex to be a source of referenceable information. It becomes a little more difficult to do so when people's Codexes can reflect different information. Secondly, it seems like it is giving a penny for a tip to your waiter. Its more of an insult than just seen as a small amount of compensation.

Would you be fine with such a list if it did not include who you romanced? If it did not include which of your companions you were friends with, or which ones you rivaled? Or even which ones you murder knifed? 

How many choices could be on this list and still be recognized and dealt with in "better" ways?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 02 mai 2013 - 04:22 .

[garrusfan1]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

please people let this evil thread die

For what it's worth, I have never brought this thread back from the grave, despite all my postings here. I simply reply to those who do.

I was talking in general when people go back and get this thread from an old page

[Fast Jimmy]

garrusfan1 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

please people let this evil thread die

For what it's worth, I have never brought this thread back from the grave, despite all my postings here. I simply reply to those who do.

I was talking in general when people go back and get this thread from an old page

I know, I just wanted to absolve myself of any necromancy sins.

[garrusfan1]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

please people let this evil thread die

For what it's worth, I have never brought this thread back from the grave, despite all my postings here. I simply reply to those who do.

I was talking in general when people go back and get this thread from an old page

I know, I just wanted to absolve myself of any necromancy sins.

fair enough

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Wrex is probably the most involved character who could be dead in any Bioware game.

Wrex is a symptom of a larger problem, though.

Yes, he can die.  But the circumstances under which he can die really highlight the sort of railroading that the save import requires.

Wrex wants to cure the genophage.  Shepard can:

a) Kill him.
Talk him out of it.

The end result, aside from the possible death of Wrex, is the same.  Either way, the big question of whether you cure the genophage is decided for the player, not by the player.  Imagine if we'd been allowed to agree with Wrex, kill anyone else who disagreed (Mordin?  Ashley?), and then go get that cure.  That would have offered a much richer array of choices, and a wider range of outcomes (that still wouldn't have required much more game content aside from some dialogue and maybe some epilogue slides).

But because that wide array of choices would break future games, the existence of the save import means that we can't have that wide array of choices.

More choice makes for exponentially more work in future games, if we have a save import.  But without the save import, there's no cost in the future games at all.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 02 mai 2013 - 04:47 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Wrex is probably the most involved character who could be dead in any Bioware game.

Wrex is a symptom of a larger problem, though.

Yes, he can die.  But the circumstances under which he can die really highlight the sort of railroading that the save import requires.

Wrex wants to cure the genophage.  Shepard can:

a) Kill him.
Talk him out of it.

The end result, aside from the possible death of Wrex, is the same.  Either way, the big question of whether you cure the genophage is decided for the player, not by the player.  Imagine if we'd been allowed to agree with Wrex, kill anyone else who disagreed (Mordin?  Ashley?), and then go get that cure.  That would have offered a much richer array of choices, and a wider range of outcomes (that still wouldn't have required much more game content aside from some dialogue and maybe some epilogue slides).

But because that wide array of choices would break future games, the existence of the save import means that we can't have that wide array of choices.

More choice makes for exponentially more work in future games, if we have a save import.  But without the save import, there's no cost in the future games at all.

I agree with this whole-heartedly.

Why try to avoid "painting themselves in a corner" with a story line when they can just do anything they want and not worry about a Save Import? DA4 is a distant, distant concept right now... one that may or may not even ever happen. But the concept of whether a given storyline/event/choice is going to happen or not in DA3 is being shaped by the fact that a DA4 might exist and how difficult it would be to accomodate such a choice/storyline.

To me, that is a very high price to pay in terms of narrative constriction. All for the low pay off of the game just telling you what choices you made in previous games. I don't need the game to tell me what I chose... if anything, I'd like the world to BE truly different, instead of the ILLUSION it is different. But that is not an accomodatable request. So I'd rather forgoe the illusion to get the actual ability to offer huge choices rather than the other way around.

[robertthebard]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Wrex is probably the most involved character who could be dead in any Bioware game.

Wrex is a symptom of a larger problem, though.

Yes, he can die.  But the circumstances under which he can die really highlight the sort of railroading that the save import requires.

Wrex wants to cure the genophage.  Shepard can:

a) Kill him.
Talk him out of it.

The end result, aside from the possible death of Wrex, is the same.  Either way, the big question of whether you cure the genophage is decided for the player, not by the player.  Imagine if we'd been allowed to agree with Wrex, kill anyone else who disagreed (Mordin?  Ashley?), and then go get that cure.  That would have offered a much richer array of choices, and a wider range of outcomes (that still wouldn't have required much more game content aside from some dialogue and maybe some epilogue slides).

But because that wide array of choices would break future games, the existence of the save import means that we can't have that wide array of choices.

More choice makes for exponentially more work in future games, if we have a save import.  But without the save import, there's no cost in the future games at all.

I agree with this whole-heartedly.

Why try to avoid "painting themselves in a corner" with a story line when they can just do anything they want and not worry about a Save Import? DA4 is a distant, distant concept right now... one that may or may not even ever happen. But the concept of whether a given storyline/event/choice is going to happen or not in DA3 is being shaped by the fact that a DA4 might exist and how difficult it would be to accomodate such a choice/storyline.

To me, that is a very high price to pay in terms of narrative constriction. All for the low pay off of the game just telling you what choices you made in previous games. I don't need the game to tell me what I chose... if anything, I'd like the world to BE truly different, instead of the ILLUSION it is different. But that is not an accomodatable request. So I'd rather forgoe the illusion to get the actual ability to offer huge choices rather than the other way around.

Again, if they had started out that way, great.  They didn't.  Not so great.  So, w/out carrying these "huge choices" forward, what do they matter?  They have no relevance to the story, since the entire story is written, and they're just fluff, right?  You don't have any choices when you're reading a book, or watching a movie.  Adding "huge choices" to a story where they aren't going to matter means that you have no choices.