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Remove the Save Import


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#101
Fast Jimmy

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Mila-banilla wrote...

 NO. 
<_<
The save imports is what makes the game more replayable.

If you don't like it, don't use it :P

Simple.


Its NOT that simple. Bioware keeping the imports means they can never tell the story of Zevran as head of the Crows, since he coudl be killed in DA:O. Or, if they do, he will just be replaced by a elven clone (a la ME3). They could never have the Anvil of the Void be used to make an army for the Dwarves, or have the Dwarves face near extinction because they aren't properly defended because the Anvil was destroyed.They could never show Connor grown up (outside of a cameo). They could never have the Architect be involved in some master, villainous plot, or Feynrael be a factor, despite being one of the most powerful mages in all of Thedas.

The imports close the doors on every choice you make. They don't empower the character's ability to affect the world or the story - they CRIPPLE it. Everything the character touches that isn't nailed down, story-wise (and, hence, wouldn't be importable as a flag anyway) is something that can't be brought back as important or relevant, not without some type of retcon. To me, that's a HORRIBLE way to run a series.

#102
Philosophaster

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slimgrin wrote...

Mila-banilla wrote...

 NO. 
<_<
The save imports is what makes the game more replayable.

If you don't like it, don't use it :P

Simple.


In Mass Effect it added nothing meaningfull. Unless you count 2-3 minute cameos as something special. Camoes don't affect replayability at all. Story depth and combat complexity does.


Saving Maelon's Genophage data, how you interact with Legion, and sparing Wrex in ME1 all had considerable impact on how the Tuchanka and Rannoch storylines play out. however i do agree that some cameos were hollow such as Zaeed and Kasumi (then again they are DLC characters that not everyone will have in their game).

#103
MillKill

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inconsiderate rick wrote...

MillKill wrote...

I hope that if they do decide to ditch the save import, they make the OGB canon. It just has so much plot potential.

Actually, even if they keep the import, I'd be fine if they still made the OGB canon. Just say that Morrigan went to Riordan with the DR.


While I agree that the OGB has great potential as a plot device, they will have to find another way to account for its existence than just Riordan accepting the DR. If they are to keep the import system and make OGB canon, they will need to explain why the Warden or Alistair remained dead after slaying the Archdemon. Then again, with Awakening you can have a inexplicably resurrected Warden appear so a ret-con is always a possibility when it comes to the nuances of the DR.


This just shows why an import feature is a bad idea. We have a great story hook that can't be used to it's fullest poetential because some people didn't make the choice for it. If we keep the import feature, but make the OGB canon anyway, like with Leliana living, what is the point of the import feature?

Cutting off great plots so that we don't hurt someone's feelings when they find out their 'choices' in a videogame don't actually matter does not seem like the right solution.

Modifié par MillKill, 06 octobre 2012 - 01:04 .


#104
Philosophaster

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krul2k wrote...

inconsiderate rick wrote...

MillKill wrote...

I hope that if they do decide to ditch the save import, they make the OGB canon. It just has so much plot potential.

Actually, even if they keep the import, I'd be fine if they still made the OGB canon. Just say that Morrigan went to Riordan with the DR.


While I agree that the OGB has great potential as a plot device, they will have to find another way to account for its existence than just Riordan accepting the DR. If they are to keep the import system and make OGB canon, they will need to explain why the Warden or Alistair remained dead after slaying the Archdemon. Then again, with Awakening you can have a inexplicably resurrected Warden appear so a ret-con is always a possibility when it comes to the nuances of the DR.


According to the default history alister is king an the wardens alive with the dr done so why they would need to explain any of them dead is beyond me


In that default world state, I believe the Warden performed the DR, hence he slays the Archdemon and both he and Alistair live. What I was responding to was the idea that the OGB be canon if the warden chose not to do the ritual and subsequently died in the ultimate sacrifice or Alistair in his stead.

Modifié par inconsiderate rick, 06 octobre 2012 - 01:07 .


#105
daaaav

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I'll just add that it is unrealistic for players to expect that their choices between games will have meaningful consequences, or that characters killed off will be returned as equally fleshed out replacements whilst demanding a game of the same scope as dragon age origins, and expect to pay $60.

You know not what you ask in terms of design, voice acting and development requirements.

#106
fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb

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fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

The only reason I like the save import in DA is to keep the universe consistant. I mean I don't want to hear about some other Warden Origin and how he stopped the blight instead of me.

It's not even you, you won't even get to see them. I agree it's pretty much pointless. Even in its most ambitious form in ME3 most things were like a palette swap. I think the main draw is getting to continue your character, but since dragon age doesn't do this...

In the end they just won't justify spending much resources on something only some people will see, so you can bet it will be half-assed. I mean they won't even do much for "decisions that matter" or "branching storylines" and that's a bit more accessible than import decisions.

I think we'd all like our decisions to have a meaningful impact but the reality is it's just not happening. Perhaps in the future there could be a business model where you have to buy expansion packs or dlcs or even a whole separate game depending on what major choices you took. The concept sounds absolutely absurd but it's the only way I can think of where it'll work. Or maybe you download it through origin and you only get the content you need and you have to pay each time you import with a difference. They don't want to work for free, and you don't want something you'll never see wasting space anyway.

Modifié par fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb, 06 octobre 2012 - 01:08 .


#107
Philosophaster

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MillKill wrote...

inconsiderate rick wrote...

MillKill wrote...

I hope that if they do decide to ditch the save import, they make the OGB canon. It just has so much plot potential.

Actually, even if they keep the import, I'd be fine if they still made the OGB canon. Just say that Morrigan went to Riordan with the DR.


While I agree that the OGB has great potential as a plot device, they will have to find another way to account for its existence than just Riordan accepting the DR. If they are to keep the import system and make OGB canon, they will need to explain why the Warden or Alistair remained dead after slaying the Archdemon. Then again, with Awakening you can have a inexplicably resurrected Warden appear so a ret-con is always a possibility when it comes to the nuances of the DR.


This just shows why an import feature is a bad idea. We have a great story hook that can't be used to it's fullest poetential because some people didn't make the choice for it. If we keep the import feature, but make the OGB canon anyway, like with Leliana living, what is the point of the import feature?

Cutting off great plots so that we don't hurt someone's feelings when they find out their 'choices' in a videogame don't actually matter does not seem like the right solution.


Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, I only took issue somewhat with your explanation for bypassing player choice with the Riordan scenario, not so much the bypassing in and of itself. I hope that they can come up with something that doesn't outright contradict what was stated in Origins concerning the DR, that there was some other unstated loophole that would allow for the OGB's existence, that was all.

Modifié par inconsiderate rick, 06 octobre 2012 - 01:14 .


#108
Mr Fixit

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Mila-banilla wrote...

 NO. 
<_<
The save imports is what makes the game more replayable.

If you don't like it, don't use it :P

Simple.


Its NOT that simple. Bioware keeping the imports means they can never tell the story of Zevran as head of the Crows, since he coudl be killed in DA:O. Or, if they do, he will just be replaced by a elven clone (a la ME3). They could never have the Anvil of the Void be used to make an army for the Dwarves, or have the Dwarves face near extinction because they aren't properly defended because the Anvil was destroyed.They could never show Connor grown up (outside of a cameo). They could never have the Architect be involved in some master, villainous plot, or Feynrael be a factor, despite being one of the most powerful mages in all of Thedas.

The imports close the doors on every choice you make. They don't empower the character's ability to affect the world or the story - they CRIPPLE it. Everything the character touches that isn't nailed down, story-wise (and, hence, wouldn't be importable as a flag anyway) is something that can't be brought back as important or relevant, not without some type of retcon. To me, that's a HORRIBLE way to run a series.


Quoted for truth. And for great quotability also.

#109
AsheraII

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What's up with this canon garbage on these forums? Seriously, stop it!
Save imports don't have to impact the next game to the extreme like with the Mass Effect end-decisions. I'd actually preferred it if they had NOT included such galaxy-wide decision making there.

DA:O actually did it just right: some cameo here, a footnote there. Maybe something slightly more with characters (Including group/squad members!) that may or may not return depending on your earlier decisions (you can always get an alternative place holder if the character plays a crucial role within the story). Some of these decisions might even lead to perks: unique characters and options *only* available to people who have played through the previous games and imported their savegames.

It's easy to say for me since I played Mass Effect since part 1, but I would've been completely okay if Kaiden or Ashley had *only* been available in ME3 to those players who had actually played ME1, and made that tough decision, and that new players wouldn't have even gotten a placeholder for them, except maybe on the Mars mission.
No, that's not a slap in the face to the new players. It's a way to say "thank you" to your faithful old fans.

One of the things that make Bioware games such great games is precisely the save imports. The previous game was never a pointless excercise. The previous games MATTER. Sometimes just a little bit, sometimes a lot, but they're not like "I have HALO 3 now, so why should I even bother with an old game like HALO2?".

#110
Fast Jimmy

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fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

The only reason I like the save import in DA is to keep the universe consistant. I mean I don't want to hear about some other Warden Origin and how he stopped the blight instead of me.

It's not even you, you won't even get to see them. I agree it's pretty much pointless. Even in its most ambitious form in ME3 most things were like a palette swap. I think the main draw is getting to continue your character, but since dragon age doesn't do this...

In the end they just won't justify spending much resources on something only some people will see, so you can bet it will be half-assed. I mean they won't even do much for "decisions that matter" or "branching storylines" and that's a bit more accessible than import decisions.

I think we'd all like our decisions to have a meaningful impact but the reality is it's just not happening. Perhaps in the future there could be a business model where you have to buy expansion packs or dlcs or even a whole separate game depending on what major choices you took. The concept sounds absolutely absurd but it's the only way I can think of where it'll work. Or maybe you download it through origin and you only get the content you need and you have to pay each time you import with a difference. They don't want to work for free, and you don't want something you'll never see wasting space anyway.


If people on the ME boards are clamoring for a DLC where they get to see a krogan riding a dinosaur, then I think there might be a market for, say, an OGB DLC. I could be totlaly off base on that.

#111
Mr Fixit

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AsheraII wrote...


One of the things that make Bioware games such great games is precisely the save imports. The previous game was never a pointless excercise. The previous games MATTER. Sometimes just a little bit, sometimes a lot, but they're not like "I have HALO 3 now, so why should I even bother with an old game like HALO2?".


I really don't understand this argument. Not having save imports means the previous game might well be a pointless exercise?

#112
MillKill

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AsheraII wrote...

What's up with this canon garbage on these forums? Seriously, stop it!
Save imports don't have to impact the next game to the extreme like with the Mass Effect end-decisions. I'd actually preferred it if they had NOT included such galaxy-wide decision making there.

DA:O actually did it just right: some cameo here, a footnote there. Maybe something slightly more with characters (Including group/squad members!) that may or may not return depending on your earlier decisions (you can always get an alternative place holder if the character plays a crucial role within the story). Some of these decisions might even lead to perks: unique characters and options *only* available to people who have played through the previous games and imported their savegames.

It's easy to say for me since I played Mass Effect since part 1, but I would've been completely okay if Kaiden or Ashley had *only* been available in ME3 to those players who had actually played ME1, and made that tough decision, and that new players wouldn't have even gotten a placeholder for them, except maybe on the Mars mission.
No, that's not a slap in the face to the new players. It's a way to say "thank you" to your faithful old fans.

One of the things that make Bioware games such great games is precisely the save imports. The previous game was never a pointless excercise. The previous games MATTER. Sometimes just a little bit, sometimes a lot, but they're not like "I have HALO 3 now, so why should I even bother with an old game like HALO2?".


For the record: I also enjoy the idea of an import system and I think that it worked as well as it ever will in Mass Effect.

But there is an enormous opportunity cost associated with it that I think far outweighs the advantages.

Sure, when Alistair was king and Anora was Queen, it was nice to meet him in DA2 and have him refer to her as "the old ball and chain." It was a nice moment and felt like the game reacted to my choices. But it came with the understanding that neither of them will ever play a major role in the series again without retcons, defeating the entire purpose of the feature.

Yes, there are benefits to an import system. But ignoring the costs, both absolute and opportunity, is a recipe for bad decision-making.

Modifié par MillKill, 06 octobre 2012 - 01:27 .


#113
Barbantious

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Yes lets make everything you do pointless to prevent railroading.

makes sense.

The better solution would simply be to put more effort into the import mechanic.

The Tuchanka mission in ME3 was a good example of this, there was about four or five different ways you could have started this mission based on what happened in the previous two games, yet the end result was what many consider to be the best part of the game, because they put a lot of effort into it.

#114
PsychoBlonde

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King Cousland wrote...

I believe it's been stated an alternative to importing is indeed on the cards which would allow for choice recognition without those pesky bugs.


Thank goodness.  If we get a Kotor2 style "wait, what happened?" prologue I will cry tears of joy.  The more I get to see the underlying systems of that save import stuff the more I hate it.

#115
EpicBoot2daFace

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Barbantious wrote...

Yes lets make everything you do pointless to prevent railroading.

makes sense.

The better solution would simply be to put more effort into the import mechanic.

The Tuchanka mission in ME3 was a good example of this, there was about four or five different ways you could have started this mission based on what happened in the previous two games, yet the end result was what many consider to be the best part of the game, because they put a lot of effort into it.

If we weren't talking about BioWare, I would agree.

#116
Barbantious

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EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Barbantious wrote...

Yes lets make everything you do pointless to prevent railroading.

makes sense.

The better solution would simply be to put more effort into the import mechanic.

The Tuchanka mission in ME3 was a good example of this, there was about four or five different ways you could have started this mission based on what happened in the previous two games, yet the end result was what many consider to be the best part of the game, because they put a lot of effort into it.

If we weren't talking about BioWare, I would agree.


Well yeah of course, this is the same company that thought tali's face reveal as it is was a good idea....and a collection of other things i won't bring up. 

#117
Darth333

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I find save imports restrictive. Why not simply give the option at the beginning to chose a detailed background story, or at least give it as an option in addition to save import? In Me3 it was really annoying to be stuck with a default story where to worst choice had been made, or one LI, one or more chars dead or alive, etc...and not being able to experience other options unless you replayed the whole damn thing or played on PC and bothered editing you save. I don't have any saves left from DA anyway.

Modifié par Darth333, 06 octobre 2012 - 02:48 .


#118
Guest_Burayan_Koga_*

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I'm not in favor of the import system being remove, but it does need to be fixed before Inquisition comes out if we want our decisions reflect in our games.

#119
David Gaider

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There are indeed certain things that would be made much easier, story-wise, by simply establishing canon and proceeding from there. No doubt about that. It's the reason the vast majority of games don't have such continuuity between games, and arrange matters so that such continuuity wouldn't even be relevant.

Thing is, you'd lose something too. Yes, perhaps we'll never be able to take this to the ultimate point everyone imagines this to be-- where all those decisions branch out until they create a player's own personal storyline, completely divergent from everyone's else's and where every decision has complete relevance between games... but is that really necessary? Even if there are only select points of influence, that's really no different than in a single game itself. It's a question of maintaining the illusion.

Maybe someone feels that illusion hasn't been kept, and can't be kept unless their every decision is kept sacrosanct. And they feel that, if we can't do it, we shouldn't even try. I get that, and there are certainly days when I feel exactly the same myself. But there are also those for whom the illusion makes the world and the story so much more theirs, and that's not something they're apt to get anywhere else. They don't necessarily want to be told a story so much as they want to be part of it. Isn't that the ideal, here?

Ultimately, regardless of the arguments, it's a trigger that Dragon Age has already pulled. I suppose one could argue we could un-pull it, as we've done with some other pretty fundamental points of design... but I'd say this goes beyond game mechanics and is more of a promise which would be pretty hard to unmake now.

There are plans for how we're going to do the import thing, which I'm not at liberty to discuss. All I'll say is that the goal is to do it better... not to scrap it.

Modifié par David Gaider, 06 octobre 2012 - 03:02 .


#120
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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I like meaningful reactivity.

I am willing to sacrifice non-meaningful reactivity from game to game if it means we can get more meaningful reactivity in each game themselves.

It's something BioWare hasn't been particularly strong at, but Origins looked like it was something they were actively working on. I was hoping for DA 2 to take the discrete choices and special casing based methods of Origins and compliment them with more interactivity driven choices that feel more natural and easier to implement consequences through mechanics.

i.e Law and Order systems for committing crimes like theft. Reputation systems that tracks your actions and adjusts the community's perception of you accordingly.

Alas, Dragon Age 2 completely regressed in this regard. Offering less interactive reactivity and less special casing reactivity (outside of the companions).

I don't want to pin that on the import system, because it's a mentality I see from BioWare in their other games too. But it certainly doesn't help. The cost outweighs the benefit.

Still, it's a feature that Dragon Age has hung it's hat on. So I don't see it changing. Might also be nice to see if they can improve it, instead of scrapping it wholesale: as is their default inclination to other concepts with imperfect implementation (particularly ones relating to RPG gameplay mechanics).

Modifié par CrustyBot, 06 octobre 2012 - 03:08 .


#121
FaWa

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Hopefully the import feature functions this time around

#122
Confused-Shepard

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Bioware simply lacks the cojones to have proper consequences based on choices made in your previous games. They lost or never had in the first place the expertise or desire to even do something like this. Better they remove the import nonsense and have a singular string narrative peppered with choices that give IMMEDIATE consequences as opposed to in the next game.

Since Mass Effect 2 I have been saying this.

#123
deuce985

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David Gaider wrote...

There are indeed certain things that would be made much easier, story-wise, by simply establishing canon and proceeding from there. No doubt about that. It's the reason the vast majority of games don't have such continuuity between games, and arrange matters so that such continuuity wouldn't even be relevant.

Thing is, you'd lose something too. Yes, perhaps we'll never be able to take this to the ultimate point everyone imagines this to be-- where all those decisions branch out until they create a player's own personal storyline, completely divergent from everyone's else's and where every decision has complete relevance between games... but is that really necessary? Even if there are only select points of influence, that's really no different than in a single game itself. It's a question of maintaining the illusion.

Maybe someone feels that illusion hasn't been kept, and can't be kept unless their every decision is kept sacrosanct. And they feel that, if we can't do it, we shouldn't even try. I get that, and there are certainly days when I feel exactly the same myself. But there are also those for whom the illusion makes the world and the story so much more theirs, and that's not something they're apt to get anywhere else. They don't necessarily want to be told a story so much as they want to be part of it. Isn't that the ideal, here?

Ultimately, regardless of the arguments, it's a trigger that Dragon Age has already pulled. I suppose one could argue we could un-pull it, as we've done with some other pretty fundamental points of design... but I'd say this goes beyond game mechanics and is more of a promise which would be pretty hard to unmake now.

There are plans for how we're going to do the import thing, which I'm not at liberty to discuss. All I'll say is that the goal is to do it better... not to scrap it.


That's exactly how I feel about it, thanks.

#124
Fast Jimmy

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David Gaider wrote...

There are indeed certain things that would be made much easier, story-wise, by simply establishing canon and proceeding from there. No doubt about that. It's the reason the vast majority of games don't have such continuuity between games, and arrange matters so that such continuuity wouldn't even be relevant.

Thing is, you'd lose something too. Yes, perhaps we'll never be able to take this to the ultimate point everyone imagines this to be-- where all those decisions branch out until they create a player's own personal storyline, completely divergent from everyone's else's and where every decision has complete relevance between games... but is that really necessary? Even if there are only select points of influence, that's really no different than in a single game itself. It's a question of maintaining the illusion.

Maybe someone feels that illusion hasn't been kept, and can't be kept unless their every decision is kept sacrosanct. And they feel that, if we can't do it, we shouldn't even try. I get that, and there are certainly days when I feel exactly the same myself. But there are also those for whom the illusion makes the world and the story so much more theirs, and that's not something they're apt to get anywhere else. They don't necessarily want to be told a story so much as they want to be part of it. Isn't that the ideal, here?

Ultimately, regardless of the arguments, it's a trigger that Dragon Age has already pulled. I suppose one could argue we could un-pull it, as we've done with some other pretty fundamental points of design... but I'd say this goes beyond game mechanics and is more of a promise which would be pretty hard to unmake now.

There are plans for how we're going to do the import thing, which I'm not at liberty to discuss. All I'll say is that the goal is to do it better... not to scrap it.


I would be very excited to see if this import feature is REDUCED, then. LIke, canon is set for 95% of prior game choices, and only a handful of big (or small) choices will be carried over. 

Likely, this is going to happen anyway, I would think. With future console generations, many people are going to not have their imports (even if backwards compatibility is possible and copying the save file will allow this, I can still see a LARGE segment of the population not bothering and starting from a pre-rendered background that closely mirrors their decisions). There's only so much you can choose in a pre-set background (likely there won't be every decision, from every game, expansion and DLC in your vanilla background option). And if it is an interactive comic, it will be even less data to transfer, since it would require an actual frame/scene for each decision, like if you found Asala, if you got Oghren back together with his girlfriend, if you completed the Red Jenny quests... hardly likely.

But, like I said... reducing all of the clutter, focusing on just a HANDFUL of choices, creating real, deep content to those choices and just ignoring all the rest could be something that is sustainable and doable. And could, hopefully, give the level of detail that many players set the bar for.

If your plan involves that, cool. If not, then cool as well. But I just feel like its a resource hog for litle payback for the players, as nothing will ever be as large-as-life as they wish it would be and its constraints to writing have to be sizeable.

#125
Fast Jimmy

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CrustyBot wrote...

I like meaningful reactivity.

I am willing to sacrifice non-meaningful reactivity from game to game if it means we can get more meaningful reactivity in each game themselves.

It's something BioWare hasn't been particularly strong at, but Origins looked like it was something they were actively working on. I was hoping for DA 2 to take the discrete choices and special casing based methods of Origins and compliment them with more interactivity driven choices that feel more natural and easier to implement consequences through mechanics.

i.e Law and Order systems for committing crimes like theft. Reputation systems that tracks your actions and adjusts the community's perception of you accordingly.

Alas, Dragon Age 2 completely regressed in this regard. Offering less interactive reactivity and less special casing reactivity (outside of the companions).

I don't want to pin that on the import system, because it's a mentality I see from BioWare in their other games too. But it certainly doesn't help. The cost outweighs the benefit.


Yeah! Crusty, right on! This guy gets i...

Still, it's a feature that Dragon Age has hung it's hat on. So I don't see it changing. Might also be nice to see if they can improve it, instead of scrapping it wholesale: as is their default inclination to other concepts with imperfect implementation (particularly ones relating to RPG gameplay mechanics).



Awww... awww.. awwww!

Crusty... you left me hanging, man.