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[Fast Jimmy]

cindercatz wrote...

1. The conflict is between Morrigan and Flemeth. If Morrigan has the OGB with her, she stands a better chance of stopping Flemeth ultimately, but that's not the only variable. What about the Warden? What about Merrill and Hawke potentially? etc. They've slow boiled this mostly in the background, and until it's cooked, there's no reason they can't continue that. When it is, I imagine we'll get two or four very different versions of the resolution, but there's nothing that says it has to take up hours and hours and hours of gametime or involve whole armies or whatever else. It's very doable, and I hope and believe they can do it well. I'm looking forward to it, and to seeing it play out in different ways.

This won't happen. It can't happen. Bioware has stated they are not in the business of making entirely custom content. One or two dialogue options, maybe even a side quest. That's all we're ever going to see. This has been the case in DA:A, DA2, ME2 and ME3... they aren't going to make a different game or story based on one choice. As they shouldn't - they can't put the resources in to make ten different games and sell it for the same price as one.

. Not every variable plays into every game. You could have variables from DA:O that don't come in until DA5 or DA6. And as they come, there's no reason you can't resolve them piecemeal. Just because the status quo will need to roughly be the same for plot point 27 two games down the road doesn't mean we won't see entirely different, and not overly resource intensive, ways of seeing that plot take shape along the way. You can basically resolve plots as they come across the series, so there's always a manageable number of variables at play at any one time.

This is an insane logic of thinking. The only way this would ever be the case is if no other choices are added in future games. If there were 10 choices from DA:O that could affect the story (a VERY conservative estimate), then there are more added in DA2, and more added in DA3, 4, 5, etc. If the list of imported choices becomes over 100 over the course of the series, do you really think they will do anything (of any significant value) with a choice from two, three, four or more iterations ago? If you're sitting there, in 2020, holding onto the hope that you're choice of the Urn of Sacred Ashes will play into the plot in a huge way, then I'd say you are delusional.

And there's no reason you couldn't have Orzammar play a major part again, as a for instance. Just because you're in the city doesn't mean you spend tons of time with its king (or the warden and his potential kid). If you're going to be there anyway, most of your assets will be used for both versions of the events in that area. What's left would be the typical either/or cameo cast, maybe an extra scene for the warden. The environment would exist either way, all of the other main characters, all the art assets aside from the three or four characters (one of which would be player edited and another potentially procedurally generated), the basic animation sets, etc. It's a relatively minor extra expense to feed dwarf wardens or one of the two potential kings in there. You're talking about a few cutscene moments worth of animation, two or three models, the DA2 family generator system tweaked a little, and some short VA work. The court of Denerim is the same way, any mage circle or Dalish clan or Redcliff or Kirkwall, whatever pre-existing locations we might visit. Let's not make it sound so impossible.

This could be done... but its trivial. Its nonsense. If your choice is limited to a cookie cutter, copy pasta option of who is in the throne room, then why have the choice at all? The games make you feel that these choices have serious impacts on the future of the world... but to have essentially the same world with just one feature different is hollow... why would you cling to such a model so tightly? I'd rather Harrowmont be king (even though that's not my chosen playthrough choice) and have the entire Dwarven kingdom affected by his method of isolationist rule, with resources dwindling, trade cut off and infighitng happening, then have Orzammar be exactly the same after a decade except who is wearing the crown. 

With the timescale, you can even retire characters, so that dead/alive resolves itself. Some characters that survive one game might not survive the next or the one after, etc. We also don't need cameos except where they make sense and add to the overall plot, but I do like them and they do add to my game and they are important. I do want to see both my PCs and companion characters pop up where they should, but just because one version of the warden or Hawke would show up at a particular place doesn't mean all versions would. Get the first PC extended main plot tied cameos into this game and then only include whatever versions would naturally appear in future, or kill them if it makes sense, but not off screen. I've already posted at length in the related thread about how that could be done very well. I would also like to see more codex entries for the various companions over the course of the series if we don't see them, just so we have a running plot going on in the background that follows on our companion related choices and appearances. If it wouldn't normally show up on camera, there's no reason to ham-fist it in there.

 

Again, you're arguing hollow points. You'd rather have a flimsier story, with only short references to characters you love, rather than have them integrated into the main story in a fun, unique, interesting way (that might just happen to not 100% match your playthrough experience)? That's both selfish and nonsensical. 

3. There's a reason I only play Fallout games once through, and don't necessarily pre-order.. The solution for DA is simply not to give apocalyptic style choices that you don't intend to fully respect. BioWare games are character first, heavily relationship oriented, writerly things. They don't lend well to kill 'em all gameplay, which is why I'm not thrilled about getting to completely wipe out both Dalish tribes we've seen much of so far, for instance. They need to avoid things like that and companion killing, anything they don't fully expect to respect in future. Then you don't have to worry about blatant ret-cons anymore, or getting boxed in by unforseen choice problems.

Something tells me you never played the original Fallouts, which were infinitely better. Those games had tons of choices in how you handled everything. It wasn't a "sandbox" experience... the genre hadn't even been invented back when those games came out. It was a turn-based RPG where you had deep story, intense lore, cool characters and companions and endings so varied and detailed, they still leave current games in the dust. 

THAT'S what people are talking about when they talk about the Fallout games... not The Elder Scrolls With Guns that Bethesda has put out.

4. I agree that they should *all* factor into the story. We might visit some of those places or characters might come to us or whatever, but I hope we see it in some way.

Again, it won't. Bioware has stated they are not in the business of making radically different custom content. There won't be a "Dark Ritual" story line and an "Ultimate Sacrifice" story line. There will be THE story line, with maybe a cameo or few dialogue lines different. Bioware has stated its not economical for them to do much more than that. 

5. It's really not.   I can see how to do it, so I'm sure they can. What we'll actually see I imagine will have more to do with what fits the story best than any limitations around imports.

It IS impossible, if you live in reality. They can't spend six years working on every game, making imports affect the game so that only 5% of the people who play the game with a certain set of import choice will see content. Sure, they COULD make wildly different games... if making games didn't cost money, they weren't limited by things like disc space and they felt like it was okay to lock new players out of tons of content because they didn't play previous games. They could make radically different stories that are nearly custom-tailored to your Warden and Hawke's exploits, where the characters all have slight nods to the actions and choices made in the past... they COULD do all of this stuff. And we could give them dozens, if not hundreds, of examples on how these choices and ramifications could play out.

But BIOWARE ISN'T DOING IT. They can't spend 30% of their budget to make content that less than 75% of their audience won't see. They can't extend their project timelines to account for every romance option, or the dozens flags that could import from DA:O to DA2. 

So what do they do instead? They made DA2 incredibly railroaded in terms of choices that affect the game's story and in terms of how everything plays out. And why was this? Because they spent resources making content for prior game choices and they didn't want to add to the list of growing resource sink for the next game. THAT'S what the imports give you - weak acknowledgement of previous choices and an innate desire to limit all choices going forward.

Congratulations. Your devotion to a broken mechanics will result in a world that is LESS custom and tailored to your choices. 

[Mr Fixit]

cindercatz wrote...

How does doing the things I suggested change their canon status quo in any way? You still get the mage war. You still get Hawke going off to wherever or staying.. then disappearing along with the Warden. And again, it's a canon ending you're complaining about, yet your solution is to have an entirely canon status quo every game. Baffles me.

Let's put it this way. No/limited import game allows players to do A, B, C, D, or E in the course of the game. Then, for the next game in the series, BioWare comes in and says 'C is canon' and shapes the game around that.

Full import game with a bunch of import flags, like DA2, allows you to do only C, or maybe C and D, where differences between them are minimal and irrelevant in the long run, in order to have an endgame that can be smoothly followed up in the next game without having to take into account wildly differing outcomes.

So yeah, The Next Game has C as a sort of 'canon' in both cases, but there are two huge advantages to limited import option:

1) The Current Game can have more branching content and much more significant and plot-relevant choice & consequences because the devs need not be concerned with how to properly import all those dozens and hundreds of variables. Yes, that means that some of those choices may be invalidated in The Next Game, but I view each game as a whole in and of itself. If I enjoyed playing it and had a good time, I won't be bothered if some decisions aren't carried over (Fallout 1/2)

Look at DAO, for example. Ferelden you leave behind can be a very different place in the future based on your choices. Circle annuled or saved, who's the ruler in Denerim, the whole Andraste's ashes thing, whether Orzammar starts to shed its caste system and slowly embraces the times or it continues to sink ever futher into the possible extinction of the dwarven race. The world changes in dramatic ways at the end of DAO, all because BioWare let us make a bunch of far-reaching decisions that should reverberate with increasing intensity.

2) The Next Game isn't beholden to status quo. If imports are limited, devs can choose the most interesting and/or narratively appealing end-state of The Current Game as a launching pad for the story of The Next Game. As an example, choosing Harrowmont as 'canon', devs can continue that storyline in future games to its logical conclusion, giving them a large playing field with lots of room to manoeuvre. Same goes if Bhelen is chosen as canon or in case of any other important DAO choice you can think of.
 
With full imports, however, those divergent choices simply CAN'T be followed up in any sort of deep and plot-relevant way, because BioWare has to account for the possibility of both Bhelen and Harrowmont, both Anvil of the Void or no, etc...

So, what you can realistically expect (having limited time and resources in mind), is:
 
a) you'll never hear of Orzammar (or any other place or person imported) in a meaningful way again or
devs will do some kind of half-measure that steers Orzammar (or whatever) 'on the right track' no matter who rules, which invalidates the whole point of meaningful choice importing in the first place.

Imports don't restrict in-game choices. The conscious design decision to restrict in-game choices does that.

That's a sophist argument, in the same way that people don't kill people, guns do. The question then has to be why there is a conscious decision to restrict in-game choices. I contend that's at least in part because of the existence of import function and the inability to account for all the variables in future games.

...that would indeed go outside the bounds of the status quo they were setting up. (...) The status quo the writers are working toward restricts branching. Imports have nothing to do with that.

Here I am just confused.

You point out yourself that devs are setting up status quo. Then you correctly follow it up noting that the status quo (set up by writers) restricts branching. And yet you fail to take that train of thought to its logical conclusion that they do it precisely because of the imports.

What I really see as your arguement at the end is that you can't have Alistair back as a companion.

Arishok is too large a role to be following the PC around, no matter who it is.

I don't know where you got the idea that I want Alistar or Sten as companions again. It has nothing to do with it.

Modifié par Mr Fixit, 07 octobre 2012 - 03:33 .

[cindercatz]

@Fast Jimmy
Uh, no. Not at all.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

This won't happen. It can't happen. Bioware has stated they are not in the business of making entirely custom content. One or two dialogue options, maybe even a side quest. That's all we're ever going to see. This has been the case in DA:A, DA2, ME2 and ME3... they aren't going to make a different game or story based on one choice. As they shouldn't - they can't put the resources in to make ten different games and sell it for the same price as one.

Since when is this custom content? It's an ongoing subplot throughout the series, in bits. Everybody's played the major beats whether they know it or not, excluding potentially confronting Flemeth for Morrigan in DA:O. Whether you've helped Morrigan out there or not was up to you, but the story's ongoing. What you would eventually have is a main quest type event (say the equivalent in content of a ME3 major sidequest) that would take whatever variables you've got into account. Morrigan v. Flemeth happens no matter what. How it happens and potentially the outcome would be determined by what you've done in the series up to that point (and right now that's like 3 or 4 variables through two games, not too much, and I'm not going to get into them; you figure it out ). I hope they stick with it, like I mentioned. It's not a huge giant OGB plotline. It's Morrigan v. Flemeth with the OGB as a factor. It's an ongoing subplot that's eventually going to come to a head in some way. These are powerful characters on the periphery that are important to Dragon Age, but I don't see why you think they'd require a whole game or more to conclude. It's really not that hard. You're making the smallest things sound impossible, though.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

This is an insane logic of thinking. The only way this would ever be the case is if no other choices are added in future games. If there were 10 choices from DA:O that could affect the story (a VERY conservative estimate), then there are more added in DA2, and more added in DA3, 4, 5, etc. If the list of imported choices becomes over 100 over the course of the series, do you really think they will do anything (of any significant value) with a choice from two, three, four or more iterations ago? If you're sitting there, in 2020, holding onto the hope that you're choice of the Urn of Sacred Ashes will play into the plot in a huge way, then I'd say you are delusional.

Insane logic how? I don't know what you think you're arguing here, but it's not my point. Piecemeal means as they come. Not every decision leads to more decisions. Sometimes it's just a resolution. Meaning this: Say your story requires heavy use of the Dalish elves and changes their status quo (part of a main plot somewhere along the line). Whether the two main tribes from DA:O and DA2 survived or not might factor in and resolve there. The Dalish warden might resolve there. Maybe Merrill has a major role there and her story resolves. Those aren't ongoing variables anymore at that point. They come to a certain head, a single true/false, or even a canon status quo for future games. But how you got there would change. The details of that storyline would take your variables into account. Say that story has nothing much to do with the circle tower situation after the mage war, nothing much to do with Fereldan royalty. So those variables don't factor in; they're static. So maybe the next game is back to Fereldan royalty, so you throw a tangential sidequest in there to reflect your status to that point. The next game comes along and you resolve a lot of your royalty issues, so they're no longer variables, but you also create a new one here and there.

The result is a consistently manageable number of variables and an evolving story that still moves along a tight central plot just like BioWare's games always have. I don't know why you think this is so difficult. Beyond that, I don't know what you define "significant value" as. If I can have a couple variables at play and a few more self contained branching plotlines (origins are very important, hope they are really made a staple), then I'm getting just as much content as any canon you're arguing for, just as tight a story as BioWare ever does, and all of my relevant imports are still factoring in like they should, which maintains an illusion of a persistent, reactive world. There's no sense blowing it out of proportion, as if I was somehow suggesting exponential complexity. There are a number of different things that play into any given playthrough of course, if we allow for imports, not nearly as much as you're exasperating about, and those things just change up the details of the experience, give a different perspective or a couple different scenes or a different conversation here and there. I'm not asking for more import content. I'm just saying they can improve on it, integrate it better.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

This could be done... but its trivial. Its nonsense. If your choice is limited to a cookie cutter, copy pasta option of who is in the throne room, then why have the choice at all? The games make you feel that these choices have serious impacts on the future of the world... but to have essentially the same world with just one feature different is hollow... why would you cling to such a model so tightly? I'd rather Harrowmont be king (even though that's not my chosen playthrough choice) and have the entire Dwarven kingdom affected by his method of isolationist rule, with resources dwindling, trade cut off and infighitng happening, then have Orzammar be exactly the same after a decade except who is wearing the crown. 

Just how much time do you want to spend staring at the king, anyway? lol Seriously, though, things like the dwarves getting close to extinction (hope they don't do that, running yourself into a corner there) you can't do as a legitimate ongoing variable. This is (hopefully) an ongoing series, not a one off. You can reflect different policies in conversation, have different sidequests, represent the composition of their armies differently, things like that. You can't do seismic shifts, but you can reflect the policies and personality of who's in charge. That's not trivial. It changes the whole context of the environment, even using the same art assets and the same level designs, etc. Not to mention, there are a few different ways the epilogue slides can go on both the golems and the Chantry, so there's a few unique sidequests in there. That's not trivial, and it is doable within reasonable budget. It also doesn't change the big beats of the main story that require their involvement in the first place, whatever that story would be. It'd still be a typical BioWare style narrative framework. If there was to be a real major change, that would have to be required by the main plot, and you'd get there, but the details along the way are different. So beyond that, my question is what more you'd want?

It can't be major shift Bhelen against major shift Harrowmont. That really would be two different games, or in your neverending canon version, whichever decision you'd make would be irrelevent and decided for the next game for us. I greatly prefer the import details to turning this into a series of never ending one offs that bear similar titles and assets, but otherwise have no continuity.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Again, you're arguing hollow points. You'd rather have a flimsier story, with only short references to characters you love, rather than have them integrated into the main story in a fun, unique, interesting way (that might just happen to not 100% match your playthrough experience)? That's both selfish and nonsensical. 

How is it fun to have everything I'd do in the game ignored? What's wrong with having characters move on to different stages in life and meeting new characters, and sure, getting the occasional companion back as well when they make sense, if they make sense? You're mischaracterizing everything I've said. I don't want anything flimsy. I want tightly integrated stories with some variables taken into account in exactly the same way the internally branching plotlines take the variables from the same game into account, which is more interesting, more unique, and more fun, not less. I'm neither selfish nor nonsensical. You are being obstinate with your insistance that I must be asking for the thing you've demonized in your head when I'm not. I'm explaining to you how imports don't objectively have any of the negative repercussions you're insisting they do, and then you're saying I support those negative alternatives when I don't. That's not to mention some of those unique benefits of the import system, such as getting to see some characters and places changing over time in a consistent narrative. How is something pretty revolutionary like that hollow? I honestly don't know what you think you're arguing, but again, it's not my point.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Something tells me you never played the original Fallouts, which were infinitely better. Those games had tons of choices in how you handled everything. It wasn't a "sandbox" experience... the genre hadn't even been invented back when those games came out. It was a turn-based RPG where you had deep story, intense lore, cool characters and companions and endings so varied and detailed, they still leave current games in the dust. 

THAT'S what people are talking about when they talk about the Fallout games... not The Elder Scrolls With Guns that Bethesda has put out.

You'd be right (seeing as I didn't know they existed until after Fallout 3 came out), but honestly from what I have seen and heard, they seem like fun games and all, but I still have no use for the option to wipe out an organization or not, then have that ignored, then wipe out a town, then have that ignored.. etc. This is not Fallout, and I don't want it to be. I have wanted to play the first two Fallouts for a while and I'll probably get around to it at some point, but your description doesn't sound anything like what I want out of Dragon Age.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Again, it won't. Bioware has stated they are not in the business of making radically different custom content. There won't be a "Dark Ritual" story line and an "Ultimate Sacrifice" story line. There will be THE story line, with maybe a cameo or few dialogue lines different. Bioware has stated its not economical for them to do much more than that. 

How in the world does four or five simple variables equal "radically different custom content"? Considering they do a lot more than what you're boiling it down to already, I'd expect at least similar variation for these. And again, there is no "Dark Ritual" storyline v. "Ultimate Sacrifice" storyline. There's only the Morrigan v. Flemeth subplot, of which that is one variable. And I have no idea if they'll ever complete that storyline. I hope they do, lookin' forward to it.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

It IS impossible, if you live in reality. They can't spend six years working on every game, making imports affect the game so that only 5% of the people who play the game with a certain set of import choice will see content. Sure, they COULD make wildly different games... if making games didn't cost money, they weren't limited by things like disc space and they felt like it was okay to lock new players out of tons of content because they didn't play previous games. They could make radically different stories that are nearly custom-tailored to your Warden and Hawke's exploits, where the characters all have slight nods to the actions and choices made in the past... they COULD do all of this stuff. And we could give them dozens, if not hundreds, of examples on how these choices and ramifications could play out.

But BIOWARE ISN'T DOING IT. They can't spend 30% of their budget to make content that less than 75% of their audience won't see. They can't extend their project timelines to account for every romance option, or the dozens flags that could import from DA:O to DA2. 

So what do they do instead? They made DA2 incredibly railroaded in terms of choices that affect the game's story and in terms of how everything plays out. And why was this? Because they spent resources making content for prior game choices and they didn't want to add to the list of growing resource sink for the next game. THAT'S what the imports give you - weak acknowledgement of previous choices and an innate desire to limit all choices going forward.

Congratulations. Your devotion to a broken mechanics will result in a world that is LESS custom and tailored to your choices. 

Again, there's a huge gulf between what I actually said I support (which is what they're actually doing already, plus more branching like they've done in the past, including origins, and finally allowing us to integrate our PCs where they should be or for whatever plotline they disappeared off to) and what you're saying I support. How any of that is less I don't know. How it's just so hard as to be impossible (or even unfeasible) I don't know. You're arguing against a phantom here. Imports are not so detrimental. They didn't cause what we got with DA2's main plotline. They can be handled better, yes. If you do away with them, however, you're fundamentally changing what Dragon Age is, you're doing away with the whole idea of a persistent world, and you're voiding multiple playthroughs I've already completed. So yes, I'm going to make my points against that.

Modifié par cindercatz, 07 octobre 2012 - 04:13 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Import was a big mistake to begin with.
It can't be done properly and it won't be.
Remove it completley.

People who complain are just self-absorbed ego-maniacs anyway. :devil:

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 07 octobre 2012 - 04:43 .

[Fallstar]

David Gaider wrote...
They don't necessarily want to be told a story so much as they want to be part of it. Isn't that the ideal, here?

This is basically why I play RPGs.

[Darth Death]

Pre-planning or a crystal ball is all that's needed. Controlling plot points so it complements the next game, creating solid diverse, but within reason choices. Of course this means BioWare has to anticipate a sequel way before its production, hence I said crystal ball.

[Genshie]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Import was a big mistake to begin with.
It can't be done properly and it won't be.
Remove it completley.

People who complain are just self-absorbed ego-maniacs anyway. :devil:

And you are asking Bioware to change the one thing they are basically famous for and makes them them.. Congrats. Lets just make all things the same and never try be inventive at all.  

You people who are behind the getting rid importing do realize that it is a little too late to get rid of it at this point right? If they were to get rid of importing they should have done it by DA2, no scratch that DAO:Awakening since you can have a completely new Warden at the time. I say this due to the fact that not everyone has a major character such Alistair as king or even as a Grey Warden anymore or even in Awakening have the Architect alive or dead. If anything if people want them to get rid of this process of importing it would have to be on an entirely new IP at this point.

Sidenote: They are making a new IP while working on a new ME title now though so bug them on that. I do believe that there will be no importing or to the same degree of making importing important in the new ME title since it will most likely be a prequel, a spin-off, or take place so far in the future that the endings of ME3 will have no effect on it. I would be rather bugged if it was a direct sequel though.

[Waydester]

I really hope you do well! I have high hopes because some big choices were made in DA2. Can't wait for 3 (I think).

[cindercatz]

Mr Fixit wrote...

cindercatz wrote...

How does doing the things I suggested change their canon status quo in any way? You still get the mage war. You still get Hawke going off to wherever or staying.. then disappearing along with the Warden. And again, it's a canon ending you're complaining about, yet your solution is to have an entirely canon status quo every game. Baffles me.

Let's put it this way. No/limited import game allows players to do A, B, C, D, or E in the course of the game. Then, for the next game in the series, BioWare comes in and says 'C is canon' and shapes the game around that.

Full import game with a bunch of import flags, like DA2, allows you to do only C, or maybe C and D, where differences between them are minimal and irrelevant in the long run, in order to have an endgame that can be smoothly followed up in the next game without having to take into account wildly differing outcomes.

So yeah, The Next Game has C as a sort of 'canon' in both cases, but there are two huge advantages to limited import option:

1) The Current Game can have more branching content and much more significant and plot-relevant choice & consequences because the devs need not be concerned with how to properly import all those dozens and hundreds of variables. Yes, that means that some of those choices may be invalidated in The Next Game, but I view each game as a whole in and of itself. If I enjoyed playing it and had a good time, I won't be bothered if some decisions aren't carried over (Fallout 1/2)

Look at DAO, for example. Ferelden you leave behind can be a very different place in the future based on your choices. Circle annuled or saved, who's the ruler in Denerim, the whole Andraste's ashes thing, whether Orzammar starts to shed its caste system and slowly embraces the times or it continues to sink ever futher into the possible extinction of the dwarven race. The world changes in dramatic ways at the end of DAO, all because BioWare let us make a bunch of far-reaching decisions that should reverberate with increasing intensity.

2) The Next Game isn't beholden to status quo. If imports are limited, devs can choose the most interesting and/or narratively appealing end-state of The Current Game as a launching pad for the story of The Next Game. As an example, choosing Harrowmont as 'canon', devs can continue that storyline in future games to its logical conclusion, giving them a large playing field with lots of room to manoeuvre. Same goes if Bhelen is chosen as canon or in case of any other important DAO choice you can think of.
 
With full imports, however, those divergent choices simply CAN'T be followed up in any sort of deep and plot-relevant way, because BioWare has to account for the possibility of both Bhelen and Harrowmont, both Anvil of the Void or no, etc...

So, what you can realistically expect (having limited time and resources in mind), is:
 
a) you'll never hear of Orzammar (or any other place or person imported) in a meaningful way again or
devs will do some kind of half-measure that steers Orzammar (or whatever) 'on the right track' no matter who rules, which invalidates the whole point of meaningful choice importing in the first place.

Imports don't restrict in-game choices. The conscious design decision to restrict in-game choices does that.

That's a sophist argument, in the same way that people don't kill people, guns do. The question then has to be why there is a conscious decision to restrict in-game choices. I contend that's at least in part because of the existence of import function and the inability to account for all the variables in future games.

...that would indeed go outside the bounds of the status quo they were setting up. (...) The status quo the writers are working toward restricts branching. Imports have nothing to do with that.

Here I am just confused.

You point out yourself that devs are setting up status quo. Then you correctly follow it up noting that the status quo (set up by writers) restricts branching. And yet you fail to take that train of thought to its logical conclusion that they do it precisely because of the imports.

edit: Oh yeah, I was referring to branching at the end, not for epilogues or carry over import material, and not during the middle of the game.

... freakin' thing died on me and I lost my post, sorry..
Anyway, thanks for the clear post.
We both want branching. The difference is in where and whether there should be continuity. I highly value continuity in fiction, and this is the first real attempt at it that I know of in cRPGs. I can't get this anywhere else.

Ok, for these, I = required plot, no major variable, II = single branching choice, I I = two branches, III = triple branching choice, etc.

In a typical cRPG like you're promoting, the broad plot tree looks something like this (say like KoTOR), with no continuity from the endings:

   I I 
    I -Malak
    II -Light Dark
    I -Revan/Bastila
II II II II
    I
    I

In DA:O, there is signficant branching, or rooting, in the origins, and then the plot tapers, expands back to five paths with two or three branches each, and then tapers again, leaving you with multiple individual variables that carry over beyond the epilogues, so something like this, with a number of other minor variables uncharted:

I I I I I II I I I I I
         I -Archdemon
         II
         II
   III II III II III
         I -Ostagar
     I I I I I I

My point was that they could have done roughly the same thing with DA2, that importing doesn't prevent them from both having a roughly equivalent amount of branching and from reaching their status quo, but instead we got something very linear with a lot of tied up loose ends that could just as well have been left for later games or forgotten if they weren't going to come back up. We didn't need to see Sofia Dryden or the Werewolves, etc., and we could have had significant branching, and origins, in the new plot, and roughly ended up exactly where we did for the status quo. The choice chart would have looked very nearly the same. That they chose not to does not come down to the import feature, which in this case at least of half of which was used for unnecessary variables that were unnecessarily resolved. There were very few necessary imports (like Leliana, the variable dialogue to explain Anders, mostly a few lines here and there, and then in MoTA, a dlc). BioWare just made the choice to streamline attempting to broaden the audience. Accounting for most everything I'd ever expect to see again, LI and everything, DA2 would broadly look something like this:

I I I I  IIII  I I I I
         I -ending
         II
         II
         I -Arishok
   I  I  II  I  I
         II
         II - not a plot choice, but class choice

Think about it much, and you'll notice the number of major variables (live/dead, LIs, major sidequests) resulting are actually pretty similar (before DA:A and all dlc) if BioWare ever wants to follow up on them. And we'd still have those variables carry over, but they only mean something if you actually plan to do something with them. A lot of them are extraneous, including from DA:O. Origins and a real choice about which side to go with during the end game would've left us with an entirely different overall experience with DA2. Less sidequests would've easily allowed for origins. Highly fleshed out sidequests that didn't really go anywhere seemed endless in DA2.

I love KoTOR, but I prefer the DA:O way. You start with major rooting in the origins, you get branching again in the meat of the game, a lot of internal complexity, and then you've got a pollenade of potential story threads to pick up if you want to in future games, not out of necessity, but if and where they fit. If you're never going to follow up on one, you just forget about it, because it won't factor into your stories. It doesn't sit there and demand an extra answer on its own (That's pretty much just the warden/Hawke disappearance.. heh). Keep in mind these are cinematic games. You can't have unlimited big change choices that actually play out in the same game. I'd rather get my endings, and have those variables present if they become relevant for a new game. Most are minor, anyway, unless and until you decide to do something with them, but they're there, and they add to the experience even when used off-handedly. You have a few major choices that may or may not pop up again, but most of it is ambient spice.

If a story would call for intimately exploring a certain large change (or making that your setting), it's not overly difficult to taper the necessary threads to get there, and then you've got your canon starting point. Imports do not prevent that, they just give it variable context.

Modifié par cindercatz, 07 octobre 2012 - 06:37 .

[PsychoBlonde]

David Gaider wrote...
Yes, perhaps we'll never be able to take this to the ultimate point everyone imagines this to be-- where all those decisions branch out until they create a player's own personal storyline, completely divergent from everyone's else's and where every decision has complete relevance between games... but is that really necessary? Even if there are only select points of influence, that's really no different than in a single game itself. It's a question of maintaining the illusion.

I'd be happy with only keeping a very few things from earlier games if it actually MATTERED somehow.  Getting or not getting 1 tiny basically irrelevant side quest that has no bearing on the new story doesn't matter, so why bother?  Just rename the 2 principle actors in that side quest, give it to everybody, and move on.

What I'd like to see done, if you do decide to keep the save import, is for each MAIN quest line have an integral sideline to it that devolves off something you decided in a previous game.  So, as an example, if you teamed up with the mages in Origins (you know, where you get that epilogue where Cullen goes crazy, murders some apprentices, and flees), then there should be a side quest in Dragon Age 2 as part of the whole Enemies Among Us chain up where you uncover that information or Cullen does something whack and you have to deal with it or SOMETHING.  Instead, we got characters potentially returning from the dead (Leliana), a pointless mention of the Amaranthine Conspirators (who cares), maybe 2 minutes spent escorting a dwarf across the docks (WHY?!?!?), and totally random elves unconnected to anything else murdering former werewolves.  Shouldn't you at least have gotten in trouble with the other Dalish if you killed those elves?!?!  Not to mention that you've retroactively rendered the entire Dark Ritual choice totally pointless because it hasn't apparently had ANY consequences.  Why should you agonize over whether somebody lives or dies when it doesn't matter either way?

Of course, part of the problem with this was that the main quest chains in DA2 weren't any bigger or more involved than the side quests.  (Heck, the Bone Pit sideline was longer and more involved than the whole deal with the Arishok.)  It's hard to bring in sidelines when doing so would totally overwhelm what ought to be the main thrust of events.

I don't care whether the import preserves "all" my choices.  I want it to actually preserve and carry forward choices that OUGHT to have some kind of significant impact.  If you're not going to do that, yes, better to scrap it instead of handing us yet another pointless Alistair cameo.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Genshie wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Import was a big mistake to begin with.
It can't be done properly and it won't be.
Remove it completley.

People who complain are just self-absorbed ego-maniacs anyway. :devil:

And you are asking Bioware to change the one thing they are basically famous for and makes them them.. Congrats. Lets just make all things the same and never try be inventive at all.

I don't think - even for a second - that importing saves is what makes BioWare famous or great.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Import was a big mistake to begin with.
It can't be done properly and it won't be.
Remove it completley.

People who complain are just self-absorbed ego-maniacs anyway. :devil:

I don't think the import system has been done properly, either. The developers don't account for important story factors (like the mage protagonist becoming a national hero and obtaining political power and control over an entire army), so it feels like an important element to the story is simply being ignored. If the writers aren't going to take into account these story elements, there doesn't seem to be much of a point to the import system.

There are also the rectons that have taken place, such as the Dalish boon and the Magi boon, where the consequences of both boons were completely ignored and changed for future stories. Basically, The Warden's boons for those choices became pointless. Again, if our prior decisions don't matter, what's the point in importing our saves?

[Il Divo]

Genshie wrote...

And you are asking Bioware to change the one thing they are basically famous for and makes them them.. Congrats. Lets just make all things the same and never try be inventive at all.  

Hey, if you want to be inventive, great. But if being inventive requires extensive costs, minimal payoff, and prevents other great stories from being told, I'll take a canon storyline any day.

Between Awakening, ME2, ME3, and DA2, Bioware has had alot of time to mess with the import feature, but it's not working. I'd rather have Bioware write a great story surrounding the OGB (or something else entirely) than attempt to resolve the storyline via a five minute side-quest.  

[SeismicGravy]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Genshie wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Import was a big mistake to begin with.
It can't be done properly and it won't be.
Remove it completley.

People who complain are just self-absorbed ego-maniacs anyway. :devil:

And you are asking Bioware to change the one thing they are basically famous for and makes them them.. Congrats. Lets just make all things the same and never try be inventive at all.

I don't think - even for a second - that importing saves is what makes BioWare famous or great.

They were the first games I ever played that had that feature, and I've been gaming for 20 years.

Modifié par SeismicGravy, 07 octobre 2012 - 09:59 .

[Vicious]

There are also the rectons that have taken place, such as the Dalish boon and the Magi boon, where the consequences of both boons were completely ignored and changed for future stories. Basically, The Warden's boons for those choices became pointless. Again, if our prior decisions don't matter, what's the point in importing our saves?

Ego-mania. The 'feature' did more to hurt than help the games. Now we get smaller, weaker main plots because development time [which isn't unlimited like some think] was wasted putting in so called 'reactions' to your 'choices' which ended up being nothing but FAN SERVICE.


It mattered because Mass Effect is a space fantasy centered around ONE PROTAGONIST. Dragon Age isn't.

Hawke doesn't know who the hell Zevran is, or why the hell he's mentioning his 'love' that he's on his way back to. T
he world is supposed to be HUGE. Everyone goes everywhere on foot. Why the hell am i running into all of these people from previous games?

Why is their appearance here feel so forced? Why is she back to life? Why are there never any damn consequences!

it needs to stop.

Modifié par Vicious, 07 octobre 2012 - 10:24 .

[Genshie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Import was a big mistake to begin with.
It can't be done properly and it won't be.
Remove it completley.

People who complain are just self-absorbed ego-maniacs anyway. :devil:

There are also the rectons that have taken place, such as the Dalish boon and the Magi boon, where the consequences of both boons were completely ignored and changed for future stories. Basically, The Warden's boons for those choices became pointless. Again, if our prior decisions don't matter, what's the point in importing our saves?

When you say Magi boon what do you mean? Do you mean people who chose the Mage Origin in DAO? If you did then I would have to disagree since there were multiple occassions where in DA2 that origins of my mage were brought up, being a mage and an elf, by characters such as Anders, Alistair, and a few other characters.

[Squeeze the Fish]

Genshie wrote...
When you say Magi boon what do you mean? Do you mean people who chose the Mage Origin in DAO? If you did then I would have to disagree since there were multiple occassions where in DA2 that origins of my mage were brought up, being a mage and an elf, by characters such as Anders, Alistair, and a few other characters.

I think the boons being talked about are at the end of the game when you can ask the current king/queen for a boon/reward. If you're a mage, you can ask for more freedom or something for the Circle and something similar for the elves.

Modifié par Squeeze the Fish, 07 octobre 2012 - 10:37 .

[Genshie]

Il Divo wrote...

Genshie wrote...

And you are asking Bioware to change the one thing they are basically famous for and makes them them.. Congrats. Lets just make all things the same and never try be inventive at all.  

Between Awakening, ME2, ME3, and DA2, Bioware has had alot of time to mess with the import feature, but it's not working. I'd rather have Bioware write a great story surrounding the OGB (or something else entirely) than attempt to resolve the storyline via a five minute side-quest.  

You just retconed yourself there. You would need the import feature in this case or there is a possibility that the OGB wouldn't even exist since one of the options is to sacrifice you and or Alistair if you didn't choose to do the DR. I personally think that OGB was a situation where Bioware has written themselves into a wall. (Not saying I don't like the OGB idea)

Modifié par Genshie, 07 octobre 2012 - 10:39 .

[Genshie]

Squeeze the Fish wrote...

Genshie wrote...
When you say Magi boon what do you mean? Do you mean people who chose the Mage Origin in DAO? If you did then I would have to disagree since there were multiple occassions where in DA2 that origins of my mage were brought up, being a mage and an elf, by characters such as Anders, Alistair, and a few other characters.

I think the boons being talked about are at the end of the game when you can ask the current king/queen for a boon/reward. If you're a mage, you can ask for more freedom or something for the Circle and something similar for the elves.

Oh in that case in DA2 for me anyway with Alistair talking/arguing with Meredith it does bring up that the mages have way more freedom.

[Vicious]

I personally think that OGB was a situation where Bioware has written themselves into a wall. (Not saying I don't like the OGB idea)

The worst part being it seemed like a huge choice. Cue Witch Hunt where Morrigan states she didn't need it at all. Her plans continue apace. Bah!

[Il Divo]

Genshie wrote...

You just retconed yourself there. You would need the import feature in this case or there is a possibility that the OGB wouldn't even exist since one of the options is to sacrifice you and or Alistair if you didn't choose to do the DR. I personally think that OGB was a situation where Bioware has written themselves into a wall. (Not saying I don't like the OGB idea)

Not at all. I'm suggesting that Bioware should simply choose a canon storyline. I have nothing against future Dragon Age games relying on the narrative from previous Dragon Age games. But if Bioware really wants to get the most out of their plot hooks, importing is simply a pain. The outrage at Leliana's survival, for example.

Making the existence of the OGB canon (or making the Ultimate Sacrifice canon) instantly frees up what Bioware is capable of doing in each successive story. Based on the last four Bioware games to feature imports, I'm not confident that the OGB will get the attention it deserves if Bioware also has to content with imagining scenarios where a Warden died instead.

[Genshie]

Il Divo wrote...

Genshie wrote...

You just retconed yourself there. You would need the import feature in this case or there is a possibility that the OGB wouldn't even exist since one of the options is to sacrifice you and or Alistair if you didn't choose to do the DR. I personally think that OGB was a situation where Bioware has written themselves into a wall. (Not saying I don't like the OGB idea)

Not at all. I'm suggesting that Bioware should simply choose a canon storyline. I have nothing against future Dragon Age games relying on the narrative from previous Dragon Age games. But if Bioware really wants to get the most out of their plot hooks, importing is simply a pain. The outrage at Leliana's survival, for example.

Making the existence of the OGB canon (or making the Ultimate Sacrifice canon) instantly frees up what Bioware is capable of doing in each successive story. Based on the last four Bioware games to feature imports, I'm not confident that the OGB will get the attention it deserves if Bioware also has to content with imagining scenarios where a Warden died instead.

They just said and even mentioned in this exact thread that they are working on improving it. I am just more personally bugged that I ended up getting a dlc that causes a corrupt save so in short I won't being seeing a certain character come DA3 due to it if she is in it. (PS3 user may just end up replaying the whole series on Xbox though once I get the money)

[NedPepper]

Genshie wrote...

MillKill wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Raging Nug wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
So basically they're going to retcon with reckless abandon. 

Only insofar as they believe they ought to. The Leliana example is probably just a matter of a lack of foresight when they were storyboarding DA:O. I don't foresee them drastically altering many other decisions, especially after what we saw in ME3 - your decisions won't be changed, but the impact of those decisions might not be what you expect.

This is why the save imports are a headache.  They WANT TO USE LELIANA.  Why not let them?  Only some people killed her on certain playthroughs.  And now they have to retcon her death.  Because she's obviously a part of things going forward.  They wanted to use Nathanial Howe, realized he could be dead, and replaced him with Sebastian...a prime example of how horrifying and limiting the save import can be.   And Mike Laidlaw has already said he wants Alistar back.  Now if Alistar did the ultimate sacrifice...how!?!

But, seriously, it's a nightmare for time and resources.  And the truth is, if they don't retcon or just make things canon, how do you tell a solid story about Ferelden?  From just a ruling standpoint, it's Anora, it's Alistar, it's both, or it's a female Warden AND Alistar.   So, with limited time and resources, how do you avoid having to deal with these decisions?  You don't feature the characters.  You give little cameos, where they wink and smile and they can have nothing of import to do with the plot.  And that sucks, because Alistar is a great character.

We have Orzamaar, with two different rulers.  A little easier to handle.

And we have companion deaths.  Theoretically, you can kill them all except for Aveline, Varic, Isabela, and Morrigan.  (And you can still stab her.)

So, in writing Dragon Age 3, you have ellimanated any strong plot device that could have used Zevran, Sten, Ohgren, Shale, Wynne, Anders, Howe, Loghain, Fenris, Sigrun, Merrill, Alistar, the mean Dalish elf from Awakenings and more I'm probably missing.  Half of these characters have become synonomous with this franchise.  Do you really never want to see any of them again in a significant light because one guy wanted to kill every companion?  And from a subjective, personal aside...I feel like Merrill's story wasn't even finished.  I want to see her again.

Another subjective opinion: the character who died in the novel Asunder from that list up there?  Her death felt so much more emotionally impactful from a pure storytelling device compared to how you can kill her in Origins.  I'll go with strong writing over a pointless choice any day.  Especially if those choices are expected to carry on in every single game.

Another issue:  Changing the engine means you're never going to see the Warden again.  Ever.  And now, probably not Hawke either.  So who cares who Hawke sided with.?  With no Hawke, there's no personal connection. It's a footnote.  You look at Hawke's story as the story of one game.  So was the Warden's.

The decisions they make don't need to continue to be reflected over and over. 

It's a nightmare for writing a strong, focused plot and I'm not convinced Bioware even does it well.  What decision in Origins really made any difference in DA 2?  NOTHING.

The gimmick is played.  And as far as the illusion goes...how long can they keep illusion before it topples on itself?  Or just plain stops working.  If it ever did.

It was fine for Mass Effect.  It was one long story with one main character.   Dragon Age isn't that.  So, again, I ask, "What's the point?"

This pretty much sums up my position far more eloquently than I could. As long as importing remains, your choices won't matter. If you remove it, characters and plots could be continued far better. It worked for Fallout. It will work for DA.

You are saying my choices don't matter but there are several references with the Wardens depending on what you did in Awakening that can play a major role such as letting the Architect live or die. And I really don't want to hear about your Warden or your Hawke just because you are too lazy to play through it. Alot of people are forgetting that there is a few big mentions from Awakening in DA2. This also includes alot of dlc from both Origins and Awakening that keep popping up throughtout DA2. Your choices actually affected the gameplay not just the story as well an example being if Zeveran lived in Origins he makes his little cameo where you can help him and thus by helping him he helps you fight the last boss. It may not affect the story in a major way but it certainly does affect gameplay.

What I believe is that depending on if you played Awakening and what you chose will affect a good chuck of what may happen in DA3 mainly when dealing with the Grey Wardens which then you can also throw in if you played DA2's Legacy dlc. I love how you guys are just solely focusing on what happened in Origins when there is also a good big expansion being Awakening that also played some major tunes.

What part did the Architect play in Dragon Age 2 besides a very vague name check and Anders and Howe saying hello?  Nothing. 

What's worse is that for peope who didn't play Awakenings, they don't get even get Howe's appearance?  Do they?  I played Dragon Age 2 with a save import that just had Origins on it in one playthrough, and Howe never even showed up.  So...we're also TAKING OUT CONTENT by using imports. 

And did anything, ANYTHING, from Origins affect the plot whatsoever?  No.  Hey, look, a Dalish Elf is trying to kill that dude who used to be a werewolf.  Hey, it's a dead Warden with a note from Anvernus that has nothing to do with Dragon Age 2, but I get a level up.  (Or Sophia Dryden shows and appparently you kill her.)

Alistar makes a joke about swooping and Zevran is on the run from the Crows in a side mission, but BECAUSE he could be dead, we will never get to play a game that really features Zevran running the Crows as a prominent plot thread?  Why?  Because he's dead for some people.  

So, you're saying you like the little nods.  And that's all they are.  Nods at the other game.  And I'm fine with that.  They don't add or detract anything.  They give a smile for a minute,  and then you go back to the main plot that has nothing to do with the events of the other games.

Look at Dragon Age 2.  Hawke's choices that could be reflected on....there's not many...he either sides with the Templars or the Mages...but WITHOUT HAWKE....who cares?  The result is exactly the same.  War.  The other decision is Feynrial.  Lot of interesting stuff there...but what if he's tranquil?  Or in Tevinter?  He's basically the OGB.  Great potential for a story, but how do you tell it if only some people have access to it?

I'm getting a headache just trying to explain this.....

The point:  Nothing from Origins had any real effect on 2.  If they could change it and make it work, great.  But I'm not quite sure how you do it with limited resources.  And no access to the Warden or Hawke.  Isn't that what we really wanted the save import for?  To see them again?  I remember seeing all the import decisions and thinking, "YAY, Shale will show up!"  What was that import for? A pigeon joke repeated over and over by the bland bartender at the Hangman.  Not really worth the import, was it?

And I guess I'll be happy in Dragon Age 3 if Merrill or Anders show up for five minutes, give me that nostalgia, and then disappear from the game because you can't put resources into a character that could be dead.  Unless you go the Wrex/Wreav route.   If they do that...maybe it would actually work.  Just to end this post on a postive note.

[Allan Schumacher]

What's worse is that for peope who didn't play Awakenings, they don't get even get Howe's appearance? Do they? I played Dragon Age 2 with a save import that just had Origins on it in one playthrough, and Howe never even showed up. So...we're also TAKING OUT CONTENT by using imports.

Imports done perfectly would require content to be removed, so I don't think this is a very strong argument, since imports would just be akin to choices and choices done well within a single game should still in some way remove/alter content.

[wright1978]

Quicksilver26 wrote...

esper wrote...

I cannot express how much I enjoy the save import. I would not be able to play da2 if it in retrorespect made the canon warden a male who romanced Morrigan. And it would ruin da:o for me too, since I would feel that every choice I made is never the one that gets carried over in canon and I would stop enjoying the game.

But then again, I was happy with the flavor, it added to da2. It was no more than flavor, yes, but it made me feel like my warden existed in the world, and quite frankly I never expected more.

I would like some save game editor for da3 for all the consoles. And also think that as years passes the save import should be less and less important. Say we are in da9 and we are near yar dragon 99 or something. The only think that the world should largely remeber there is if the warden died fighting archdemon or not. Some king the installed in Orzommar has for example likely had his line been assassinated at least three times by then (Of course da9 should remember da8 very well).

hear hear couldn't have said it better myself. I like the flavor it adds dosn't need much more then that.

Agree completely.