226 réponses à ce sujet

[StElmo]

daaaav wrote...

StElmo wrote...

I feel like I'm being pandered to as if I am the biggest basement dwelling, socially challenged, internet fiend piece of crap whenever I see a game that puts skimpy characters into the cast.

This is even worse when the game makes an effort to put voyueristic shots of these characters into the game. Like Miranda's absurd bum shots - seriously what the hell?

DA2, at least, had some very practical armor sets for people like Femhawke and Aveline, if this extends to all of the characters in the next game I will be VERY pleased.

Here's my solution:

If the game manages to NOT embarass the player whenever a non-gamer sees them playing around those characters, then you probably have done a decent enough job.

Obviously sex scenes and other contextually appropriate moments could have nudity or underwear or whatever, but those are easily explained, rather then pandering towards notions of player pervesity.

P.S. you all might say "but miranda and isabella's design suited their character! so its okay" - oh yeah? then bite me, there is no reason the character design couldn't reflect their characters without being skimpy and impractical.

In closing, I think my point is that we have all grown up since the old days and we'd like to see that reflected in DA3.

Clearly we have not grown up enough...

Look, your most egregious example of oversexualisation being Isabella's or Miranda's outfit or camera treatment is hardly unique to dragon age... Compared to other media, it is actually pretty tame. So I think your worries concerning gamer embarassment are more a problem with gaming in general than oversexualisation.

Anyway, please explain to us how your modesty crusade differs to the brave efforts of the Iranian cultural police who enforce strict dress codes on their women citizens?

1) I don't like sexualization taking precedent over true character development and believable practicality. It's exploitive of base traits rather then constructive development of a character.
2) If the characters want to walk around in their own homes naked, that is fine by me (provuided it is justified through character traits etc.) - but I hate the idea they would fight in zero armor and put sexual appearence above safety. Thats silly.
3) How dare you trivialize the plight of opressed women by comparing it to a video game discussion about designed characters - nothing of which has any relevance to individual women's rights. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[daaaav]

StElmo wrote...

1) I don't like sexualization taking precedent over true character development and believable practicality. It's exploitive of base traits rather then constructive development of a character.
2) If the characters want to walk around in their own homes naked, that is fine by me (provuided it is justified through character traits etc.) - but I hate the idea they would fight in zero armor and put sexual appearence above safety. Thats silly.
3) How dare you trivialize the plight of opressed women by comparing it to a video game discussion about designed characters - nothing of which has any relevance to individual women's rights. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yeah yeah faux outrage and all that. It was an extreme example, I know, but it's the same damn principle. Your sensibilities are offended and therefore everyone else should confirm to whatever you think is appropriate. Characters are but a mirror of people, and should be able to wear whatever they like.

[Wifflebottom]

StElmo wrote...

daaaav wrote...

StElmo wrote...

I feel like I'm being pandered to as if I am the biggest basement dwelling, socially challenged, internet fiend piece of crap whenever I see a game that puts skimpy characters into the cast.

This is even worse when the game makes an effort to put voyueristic shots of these characters into the game. Like Miranda's absurd bum shots - seriously what the hell?

DA2, at least, had some very practical armor sets for people like Femhawke and Aveline, if this extends to all of the characters in the next game I will be VERY pleased.

Here's my solution:

If the game manages to NOT embarass the player whenever a non-gamer sees them playing around those characters, then you probably have done a decent enough job.

Obviously sex scenes and other contextually appropriate moments could have nudity or underwear or whatever, but those are easily explained, rather then pandering towards notions of player pervesity.

P.S. you all might say "but miranda and isabella's design suited their character! so its okay" - oh yeah? then bite me, there is no reason the character design couldn't reflect their characters without being skimpy and impractical.

In closing, I think my point is that we have all grown up since the old days and we'd like to see that reflected in DA3.

Clearly we have not grown up enough...

Look, your most egregious example of oversexualisation being Isabella's or Miranda's outfit or camera treatment is hardly unique to dragon age... Compared to other media, it is actually pretty tame. So I think your worries concerning gamer embarassment are more a problem with gaming in general than oversexualisation.

Anyway, please explain to us how your modesty crusade differs to the brave efforts of the Iranian cultural police who enforce strict dress codes on their women citizens?

1) I don't like sexualization taking precedent over true character development and believable practicality. It's exploitive of base traits rather then constructive development of a character.
2) If the characters want to walk around in their own homes naked, that is fine by me (provuided it is justified through character traits etc.) - but I hate the idea they would fight in zero armor and put sexual appearence above safety. Thats silly.
3) How dare you trivialize the plight of opressed women by comparing it to a video game discussion about designed characters - nothing of which has any relevance to individual women's rights. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Nice cop out

[Lazengan]

it doesn't matter

the modders will release all sorts of skimpy outfits, and there will be people, myself included, that will download them. I really loved their work over at dragon age nexus

It's good at least to have the choice and variety in what type of clothes you want. Of course everyone's tastes are different, what's most important is that we can personally choose the flavor of our RPG

Bioware should let us have a choice in these matters, meaning full armor customization

[mrs_anomaly]

I'm agreeing with Lazengan- I think there should be a choice. If one prefers their armor to be more "realistic" or cover more cleavage then that should be there I suppose. Personally I have zero issue with how skimpy some of the outfits were- it just didn't bother me. I guess I can chalk it up to "its fantasy". Just like blood magic doesn't exist- I can just pretend that there is a special uh skin spell LOL. And anyway I don't believe in **** shaming either. I'm tired of hearing how Isabella is a ****. If that is the case my damned femHawke is a ****, and I'M a **** and so are all women that just like sex. Which yeah guess you men can't have it both ways!
The one thing I did not like however was the "hollywood" upgrade Isabella got. While I actually really enjoy her character, and I love her new face I hate how her breasts are porno huge. Its just ugly to me- but it isn't a deal breaker.

[StElmo]

mrs_anomaly wrote...
And anyway I don't believe in **** shaming either. I'm tired of hearing how Isabella is a ****. If that is the case my damned femHawke is a ****, and I'M a **** and so are all women that just like sex. Which yeah guess you men can't have it both ways!
The one thing I did not like however was the "hollywood" upgrade Isabella got. While I actually really enjoy her character, and I love her new face I hate how her breasts are porno huge. Its just ugly to me- but it isn't a deal breaker.

For christs sake, why does everyone think this relates to sl** shaming at all? It's completely irrelevant.

It's more of a concern that a team of a mostly male industry are designing female characters centered completely around sex appeal.

I don't like seeing that, it makes me feel uncomfortable that characters are being designed to appeal to xploitive base attraction over something like character depth.

That said, I do agree, the choice might be the best option for everyone.

Modifié par StElmo, 08 octobre 2012 - 03:35 .

[StElmo]

Wifflebottom wrote...

StElmo wrote...


3) How dare you trivialize the plight of opressed women by comparing it to a video game discussion about designed characters - nothing of which has any relevance to individual women's rights. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Nice cop out

It's not a cop out, his relation to a social issue in iran is a cop out.

[Dhiro]

I wouldn't want BioWare to dress female characters in "sexy" outfits just for the sexy part and nothing more. I think it's beneath them, and I had enough of that with Samara and Miranda. That said, if it fits the character, like it does with Isabela, I have no problem with it.

[daaaav]

StElmo wrote...

Wifflebottom wrote...

StElmo wrote...


3) How dare you trivialize the plight of opressed women by comparing it to a video game discussion about designed characters - nothing of which has any relevance to individual women's rights. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Nice cop out

It's not a cop out, his relation to a social issue in iran is a cop out.

Look, I really didn't mean for this to get so animous...but as long as your just going to sit there and assert things like "it's completely irrelevant" and "It's not a cop out" without elaborating, there's no point arguing any more.

[Joy Divison]

StElmo wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

StElmo wrote...

If isabella was dressed the way she does in non-combat and in private, I would have no problem. But contextually, her outfit in combat, even for a rogue, is absolutely absurd.

Please don't try to twist my argument of context, it's quite clear if you put common sense into it.

I for one am curious to what your common sense tells you how seafaring adventurers/pirates/rogues should be dressed for combat.

Put some pants on, wear some arm guards and bracers and don't have their boobs hanging out.

Impractical and clearly a design catered towards base sexual attraction, rather then characterization.

Pants are overrated. The Romans didn't wear them.  I don't either if I'm a pirate and have to climb rigging or, ehm, swim.  They don't protect you in combat.

As for her boobs hanging out, well, sticking them more fully in a bra has more to do with the issues you are bringing to the game that prevent you recognizing the character made by the creators of the game

[StElmo]

daaaav wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Wifflebottom wrote...

StElmo wrote...


3) How dare you trivialize the plight of opressed women by comparing it to a video game discussion about designed characters - nothing of which has any relevance to individual women's rights. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Nice cop out

It's not a cop out, his relation to a social issue in iran is a cop out.

Look, I really didn't mean for this to get so animous...but as long as your just going to sit there and assert things like "it's completely irrelevant" and "It's not a cop out" without elaborating, there's no point arguing any more.

It's not, because women in real life are not designed by a team of mostly men. Their personalities also arise naturally from their lives.

So me wanting character design to be toned down so it is at least realistic and natural, ratyher then characturistic. Shows I am in fact not doing anything like the opression of IRL women. I don't like them being used as objects in games, same with men too!

[unbentbuzzkill]

you don't wear pants? i'm sure you mean your character right?

[daaaav]

StElmo wrote...


It's not, because women in real life are not designed by a team of mostly men. Their personalities also arise naturally from their lives.

So me wanting character design to be toned down so it is at least realistic and natural, ratyher then characturistic. Shows I am in fact not doing anything like the opression of IRL women. I don't like them being used as objects in games, same with men too!

That... is entirely reasonable. And I dare say the very path that the developers (some of which are women) will go down. It was your demand that ALL SKIMPY CHARACTERS COVER UP OR ELSE that fogged your point...

Modifié par daaaav, 08 octobre 2012 - 04:03 .

[brushyourteeth]

StElmo wrote...

P.S. you all might say "but miranda and isabella's design suited their character! so its okay" - oh yeah? then bite me, there is no reason the character design couldn't reflect their characters without being skimpy and impractical.

I do think that Isabela and Miranda's outfits suited their character, but you're right that that doesn't mean we needed the camera to linger on Miranda's behind the way it did.

However, we are talking about Dragon Age here. Not Mass Effect.

The only time I can recall that the camera lingered on Isabela's chest was in her introductory bar scene, where she was basically using it to distract Lucky from the fact that he was about to get pwned. So that was contextually appropriate. The only time I can remember her butt being focused on is.... never. In fact I didn't notice she didn't even have shorts on until my second playthrough.

I'm fine with promiscuous female characters in skimpy clothes as long as they're balanced by the Wynne's and the Aveline's and the Merrill's - because femininity is relative to the woman that's representing it. You can't pigeonhole what a woman is or isn't, and thankfully I've never felt like the DA team has tried to do that. They represent all types, and I like that. I've never felt like they inserted awkward camera angles into the game, but I suppose I agree with you that they shouldn't start.

So keep up the good work, team.  

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 08 octobre 2012 - 04:05 .

[StElmo]

daaaav wrote...

StElmo wrote...


It's not, because women in real life are not designed by a team of mostly men. Their personalities also arise naturally from their lives.

So me wanting character design to be toned down so it is at least realistic and natural, ratyher then characturistic. Shows I am in fact not doing anything like the opression of IRL women. I don't like them being used as objects in games, same with men too!

That... is entirely reasonable. And I dare say the very path that the developers (some of which are women) will go down. It was your demand that ALL SKIMPY CHARACTERS COVER UP OR ELSE that fogged your point...

lol fair enough. Sorry for not being clearer.

[Hey]

Personally I'm alright with Isabela not wearing pants but I'd really like to see them add the ability to change up the companion gear a bit. Maybe just a few templates would do it. Make your own sense out of their battle attire. Be as absurd or practical as you wish with out having to mod it would be nice.

[MontySnake]

Personally I think there should be a Slider switch in the preferences of the game to set the content for those who are more modest, to see less revealing clothing and scenes, to a setting that allows us non prude types to enjoy full on adult interactions in the game and that the love scenes be a repeatable option to gratify those of us who are really looking for a capital "F" in a fantasy RPG. I really personally do enjoy seeing sex scenes in my games, it makes my gaming experiance fully complete along with gory scenes of killing cave trolls and dragons!(And I am not saying this to be Sarcaustic, This is what I want in a Game! Bioware you're on the right path). One more thing, Get rid of the silly DRM requirement of always having to be connected to the internet to play, there are times when I am on my Mac Laptop, i'd love to play the game, but I am not near a hotspot nor do I want to be "Online" all the time!

Modifié par MontySnake, 08 octobre 2012 - 04:32 .

[mrs_anomaly]

StElmo wrote...

mrs_anomaly wrote...
And anyway I don't believe in **** shaming either. I'm tired of hearing how Isabella is a ****. If that is the case my damned femHawke is a ****, and I'M a **** and so are all women that just like sex. Which yeah guess you men can't have it both ways!
The one thing I did not like however was the "hollywood" upgrade Isabella got. While I actually really enjoy her character, and I love her new face I hate how her breasts are porno huge. Its just ugly to me- but it isn't a deal breaker.

For christs sake, why does everyone think this relates to sl** shaming at all? It's completely irrelevant.

It's more of a concern that a team of a mostly male industry are designing female characters centered completely around sex appeal.

I don't like seeing that, it makes me feel uncomfortable that characters are being designed to appeal to xploitive base attraction over something like character depth.

That said, I do agree, the choice might be the best option for everyone.

No, sorry OP, I'm not saying you are the one S-lut shaming. I've just read posts in this thread and elsewhere that scream about what a S lut Isabella is. 

Now besides that- I think that while my tendency to say this is an M rated game and nudity/clothing briefness shouldn't be a huge issue. I understand completely that you are uncomfortable with, tired of and aggravated with the pandering to a mostly male mindset with character design. I'm a female player also, and I'm a feminist. It just doesn't bother me much- but I see your point and understand the reasons you object. This is why personally I feel that it would be simple enough to have choices in outfit/armor. They did it for the Mass Effect franchise- you can change outfits on squad members if you gain their loyalty in ME2 and you can do it in ME3. I only bring this up- because Bioware could easily just make this debate disappear instantly with that simple option "conservative" vs "fantasy skimpy" options would be smart on their part. 

Modifié par mrs_anomaly, 08 octobre 2012 - 04:38 .

[brushyourteeth]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

No fat chicks huh? How about no beards? Beards are gross.

(If men with beards are offended, now you know how "fat chicks" feel.)

Awww, how adorable! A knight in shining armor for the fat chicks. Gonna need a strong back and one hell of a strong horse to sweep them off their feet, though.

The only difference between a bearded man and a fat chick is, of course, a five minute bathroom trip can make the beard dissapear.

But, unfortunately, it can't get a person a new face...

Or an acceptable sense of morality. 

[CuriousArtemis]

mrs_anomaly wrote...

This is why personally I feel that it would be simple enough to have choices in outfit/armor. They did it for the Mass Effect franchise- you can change outfits on squad members if you gain their loyalty in ME2 and you can do it in ME3. I only bring this up- because Bioware could easily just make this debate disappear instantly with that simple option "conservative" vs "fantasy skimpy" options would be smart on their part. 

Well except in ME3 your choices for the girls was "sexy and clingy armor" or... "more sexy and clingy armor."  For the guys: "bulky and war appropriate armor" or... "more bulky and war appropriate armor."

[Quicksilver26]

simfamSP wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

mrs_anomaly wrote...

This is why personally I feel that it would be simple enough to have choices in outfit/armor. They did it for the Mass Effect franchise- you can change outfits on squad members if you gain their loyalty in ME2 and you can do it in ME3. I only bring this up- because Bioware could easily just make this debate disappear instantly with that simple option "conservative" vs "fantasy skimpy" options would be smart on their part. 

Well except in ME3 your choices for the girls was "sexy and clingy armor" or... "more sexy and clingy armor."  For the guys: "bulky and war appropriate armor" or... "more bulky and war appropriate armor."

I'm sorry, but that's crud. Liara and Tali's armour have always been appropiate, they were 'sexy' but that's because I would find Liara sexy covered in horse ****. But they were never 'clingy.' That's just taking it too far now.



Yes, there is a certain emphasis on the breasts, but it's still armour. The way some people talk about female armours in BioWare games, you'd think they were wearing this:

it's cause the breast are still emphasizes she should be wearing light armor like shep is wareing not something that is all look i have boobies could it be better yes could it have been a lot worse hell yeah it could've(i think she looks so hot in that:whistle:)