29 réponses à ce sujet

[Leoroc]

 So sprint review day makes it seem as though level design is talk of the town over at BW right about now and I'd like to get this off my chest.

As much as I love the games story; the level design is often nonsensical. I will keep it a bit short but give a few examples of what I dislike and like.

Dislike:

The orphanage in DA:O in the alienage. By orphanage I mean the random collection of rooms strung about haphazardly. When buildings are designed like this: http://guides.gamepr...ide.asp?ID=8662 it kills immersion. An orphanage looks more like this http://www.gcanet.or...age drawing.jpg, although a more medieval cheap-o one would probably have a common room as opposed to several smaller rooms. I think this is a symptom of buildings being instanced/zoned rather than being part of the exterior.

Gamlen's house in DA2. What the hell was with that balcony/loft thing that you couldn't even reach? Also it looked nothing like a home, as in many BW games all rooms are huge and have all the furniture pushed against the wall. This may have been for ease of movement but I'd like to see the technical limitations overcome with the new engine hopefully.

Every interior in SWTOR. The ceilings are all thirty feet high, and small bunkers are actually gigantic warehouse sized things. Everyone on Hoth complains how cold it is, and they leave the hangar doors wide open...

The mansions in DA2, they seem jumbled, like the crazy layouts of the office building instances in CoH (which were randomly generated). A lot of odd rooms with no purpose and too few bedrooms.


Likes: This was a bit tougher to come up with to be honest. Level design is kind of a weak point. You should go and look at where D&D/Pathfinder have gone to in dungeon design (the Shattered Star adventure path is a nice example). The levels here in Dragon Age are a bit too gamey when they don't need to be.

The exteriors, Denerim and the Citadel, despite being limited in where you can actually go, still give off a pretty expansive feeling.

The chantries in DA:O, very believable, and had enough seating for an entire mass!

Deep Roads/Orzammar look as though to be crafted in natural caverns, though dwarven manors could probably have dwarven doors (unless they need their golems in their bedchambers)

I like the dalish camps, though the land-ships should probably a bit more bigger.http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--y_xu4e41AY/T141XlLmg_I/AAAAAAAADpw/sWa9n4hugS8/s1600/GypsyWagon+A.jpg

[Leoroc]

My threads always get overwhelmed by whiners posting threads about protagonist voice

[Sable Rhapsody]

Leoroc wrote...
As much as I love the games story; the level design is often nonsensical. I will keep it a bit short but give a few examples of what I dislike and like.

I think the problems in level design stem from a larger problem in BioWare's games which is that gameplay and story don't always see eye to eye.  Blood magic is an excellent example--I can run around puppeteering templars left and right, then tell Meredith I'm a good little mage.  I think the level design is often compromised by ease of gameplay--an orphanage as a series of nondescript boxy rooms in a straight line is easier to navigate than a more realistic model.  Same with the Deep Roads--they're probably a labyrinth of dead ends and traps, but no one wants to wander through ten hours of that.

[Leoroc]

In DAO I remember a few instances of being a blood mage mentioned. Notably I gave the spec to Anders and he was talking about his past he said something like "they were chasing me like I was some sort of blood mage! And I wasnt, at the time anyway."

[Guilebrush]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I think the problems in level design stem from a larger problem in BioWare's games which is that gameplay and story don't always see eye to eye.  Blood magic is an excellent example--I can run around puppeteering templars left and right, then tell Meredith I'm a good little mage.  I think the level design is often compromised by ease of gameplay--an orphanage as a series of nondescript boxy rooms in a straight line is easier to navigate than a more realistic model.  Same with the Deep Roads--they're probably a labyrinth of dead ends and traps, but no one wants to wander through ten hours of that.

That's certainly true to an extent, but level design really has been a weak point in any and every Bioware game that I've had the fortune to play. The ME series, the DA series (so far), NWN,  KOTOR, TOR, none of these games have what I would memorable, interesting nor dynamic level designs. The games hardly make use of elevations, inclines, alternate routes or the like to add spice or a grand sense of exploration to the levels (even the larger maps in TOR feel kind of "souless and empty"). While I agree that I wouldn't want to spend real hours trudging my way through a labyrinthian Deep Roads the previous implementation fails to at least give the illusion of such scale and foreboding.

I think more than lack of talented level designers (and in one particularly glaring case, budgeted time) this might have to do more with engine limitations and the choice for party based RPGs more than anything. It is hard to visual for instance companion characters keeping up with players given the same freedom of movement afforded in Arkham City or Assassin's Creed 2 for instance. Even a game like Skyrim, how often do companions get stuck in terrian due to weird pathing or other quirks.

I will say, using what for all accounts is a powerful engine for DA3 gives me a lot of hope that the same level of creativity that gets poured into (most) other aspects of Bioware games make it into the level design sphere. But, if we end up with nothing more than repetative, boxy, flat corridors again and again in DA3 well then I'd without hesitation start to question the crafters rather than the tools.

[Wulfram]

The Alienage orphanage was probably not a purpose built institution. Who's going to build a fancy building for knife-ear brats?

What I'd really like to see with level design is making the environment more part of the gameplay. From basic stuff like taking advantages of choke points, to there being ways to use cover or barricades, to more extravagant stuff like making chandeliers fall on top of your foes.

[Leoroc]

No one builds anything that looks like that orphanage, regardless of original intent.

[TsaiMeLemoni]

Hm, I guess this issue, particularly given those two examples, is insanely far down the line on any complaint list I have. They are buildings with rooms, and that's good enough for me.

[Leoroc]

They are going to obviously be making new levels for the new game, no reason they can not improve on them as they do it.

[deuce985]

Level design is one of Bioware's weakest design in their recent games. I think they recognize this and that's why DA3 is apparently getting a lot of care in this area. I don't know if it was engine bottlenecks or they just didn't focus many resources in this area but I think the last game Bioware did good level design was BG2.

Level design and the ambiance in your world plays into gameplay/story/atmosphere too. I think Bioware is starting to realize this. One reason they moved to a far more advanced engine. If you want people to believe in the DA universe, you need to bring it alive past their writing. Most things are just left up to the imagination, you can't see it visually.

Could you imagine walking around and seeing beautiful vistas similar to Skyrim(not that open though)? Seeing lost ruins, the trees flowing, birds chirping, Templars doing patrols around the city, people living their daily lives, day/night cycles? Maybe that's all unrealistic, I don't know. But if Bioware can ever bring their worlds to life with their great writing - masterpiece.

I always see Bioware's level design as "funnel you down a tunnel" because that's how it feels. Constrained, linear, and direct. Not necessarily a bad thing for people who want to purely focus on story. Some of us would like to get more immersed in their world though...and it seems they know this. I'm not sure how "open" the game will be. I have my doubts if the game makes a 2013 release. They're either going to come with some compromise or have a big budget+big development team. Something tells me EA isn't going to drop a huge budget on this game. The last time Bioware tried an open level design, it didn't end well in Mass Effect.

But they're just going to have to bite the bullet. Proof is in the sales. Look at all the games currently hitting big numbers on the market. They're open games. People like to get lost in worlds...

Bioware just needs to do what they're good at and open their games up more. They don't need to be a massive sandbox game but their world design does need some work. And they need to drop us in with plenty of choice in how we want to play.

Modifié par deuce985, 06 octobre 2012 - 07:17 .

[slimgrin]

Replaying DA:O reminds me of not only how linear the environments are, but also how little thought was given to creating strategically designed areas that would compliment the combat.

Modifié par slimgrin, 06 octobre 2012 - 07:18 .

[Das Tentakel]

It's a pretty common complaint. Regardless of whether they liked the game or not, Dutch and German reviewers frequently do complain about 'gangetje, gangetje'  (passages and passages...) and ' ewige schlauchlevel' (eternal pipelike levels) when it comes to BioWare games.
The tone was actually becoming rather dismissive in this respect regarding the latest games .

I did watch some let's plays of ME (I have I and II, but for some reason I don't like Mass Effect, despite being a SF and space opera buff) and the linear tunnels really started getting annoying.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 06 octobre 2012 - 07:45 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

BioWare level design:



Those guys got it easy.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 06 octobre 2012 - 07:59 .

[MichaelStuart]

I feel the levels design in Dragon Age are very liner. I feel I'm just being led to the next combat.

[Das Tentakel]

I think we agree about the linearity, but isn't this a general problem? I've run into similar complaints about current shooters as well.

Edit: Let me rephrase that. The complaints I've read refer to linearity, not tunnel-like level design. They often go together, but are not the same.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 06 octobre 2012 - 08:27 .

[Massakkolia]

Guilebrush wrote...

I think more than lack of talented level designers (and in one particularly glaring case, budgeted time) this might have to do more with engine limitations and the choice for party based RPGs more than anything. It is hard to visual for instance companion characters keeping up with players given the same freedom of movement afforded in Arkham City or Assassin's Creed 2 for instance. Even a game like Skyrim, how often do companions get stuck in terrian due to weird pathing or other quirks.

To be brutally honest Bioware's level design team could use some serious shake up. I don't doubt their professional skill but I do believe there's something of a slump going on. Usually when a business develops bad habits they need to hire some fresh management level people to bring in new ideas. Bad level design is epidemic across latest Bioware games so they need new ideas, which come with new blood.

You're right about the party based design though. It's no doubt trickier to design a level for up to four player controlled characters instead of just one. However, party based RPGs are what Bioware does. That's their speciality and instead of getting better at it, they're getting worse. It might have something to do with technological leaps, which create pressure to make environments and player's interaction with different levels match the realism seen in cutscenes.

Regardless, level design is very important for a great game play experience. For me DA2 was the first Bioware game in which good storytelling and characterization couldn't distract me enough to make me ignore failed design choices.

Modifié par Ria, 06 octobre 2012 - 08:49 .

[Guilebrush]

Das Tentakel wrote...

I think we agree about the linearity, but isn't this a general problem? I've run into similar complaints about current shooters as well.

Edit: Let me rephrase that. The complaints I've read refer to linearity, not tunnel-like level design. They often go together, but are not the same.

It is for sure, but one of the big issues with how Bioware does it is that the linearity is so blatant and constant that it can really drag on the game. A lot of linear games do an excellent job of at least "masking" the linearity through all sorts of techniques: set pieces, minor branching, backtracking, elevations, inclines, other breaks in pacing and so on. Think about a game like Batman Arkham Asylum, while it has a very strong "open vibe" to it, it is actually quite linear. Most players don't really feel like they're being aggressively funneled in one direction though. There's still a strong sense of freedom, options, exploration and diversity in action going on while you move from one room to the next.

Mass Effect 3 greatly improved on this relative to the Bioware games before it, but compared to its contemporaries still feels quite restrictive. I still think that it's mostly due to engine limitations and the squad based, pause friendly design. They probably had to make a lot of compromises to get everything to work in such a way that moving around with the companions feels good.

I mean just compare Bioware companions to Skyrim companions. Those things hardly ever keep up, and when they do just love getting in the way, some can argue doing way more harm than good in a lot of situations. It's not like Tali, Allistair and co are perfect but navigating maps with them for dozens of hours isn't half as aggravating as trying to do a dungeon with Meeko and Lydia.

I'm cautiously optimistic that the new engine will finally allow their level designers to "flex" their creativity, but I'm going to keep my hopes tempered since well, we know how their levels ended up historically.

[Wulfram]

If you don't do linear level designs, then people will tend to just end up going down all the paths to avoid missing out on XP and items. Which ends up being basically the same as a linear level, but more tedious.

Of course you could design a system that didn't encourage that sort of thing, and I'd love it if they did, but it would require going up against some pretty major RPG sacred cows. And in the name of spending resources on something that portions of your audience will skip, thus creating a shorter game.

[slimgrin]

Wulfram wrote...

If you don't do linear level designs, then people will tend to just end up going down all the paths to avoid missing out on XP and items. Which ends up being basically the same as a linear level, but more tedious.

Of course you could design a system that didn't encourage that sort of thing, and I'd love it if they did, but it would require going up against some pretty major RPG sacred cows. And in the name of spending resources on something that portions of your audience will skip, thus creating a shorter game.

Wow. Really? 

All I can say is if you like unimaginative levels, more power to you. But this is a weak argument. Other games do it just fine.

Modifié par slimgrin, 06 octobre 2012 - 09:07 .

[Wulfram]

slimgrin wrote...

Wow. Really? 

All I can say is if you like unimaginative levels, more power to you. But this is a weak argument. Other games do it just fine.

My preferred answer would be to remove the perverse incentives to explore everything, and then have non-linear levels.

I just don't think it's going to happen.

[Massakkolia]

Wulfram wrote...

If you don't do linear level designs, then people will tend to just end up going down all the paths to avoid missing out on XP and items. Which ends up being basically the same as a linear level, but more tedious.

Linearity isn't always a problem, dull or nonsensical (like op's orphanage example) level design is. There are many ways to make a space interesting. It's partly about the visual experience and partly about the interaction. Even if a game uses very small or narrow spaces it doesn't mean that level design is automatically bad.

In fact, when a level size is small it should be even more cleverly designed for strategic combat or exploration. Unfortunately, this rarely happens in Bioware games and level design is mainly used as a tube the player uses to slide from one cutscene to another.

[eroeru]

slimgrin wrote...

Replaying DA:O reminds me of not only how linear the environments are, but also how little thought was given to creating strategically designed areas that would compliment the combat.

Why should the areas compiment the combat? What is such an area like?
If the combat's well-done then a diverse set of areas will compliment it, I don't really see how specifically designed areas would feel natural or good in terms of immersion.

Though maybe I'm not getting your drift here exactly.
But I do feel this should not be a big issue.

[Leoroc]

I think slim meant that the level design is a good way to make combat more tactically interesting, which is certainly true but I would rather not see building interiors all designed with intentional chokepoints. Buildings shoukd be designed as actual buildings.

[deuce985]

Das Tentakel wrote...

I think we agree about the linearity, but isn't this a general problem? I've run into similar complaints about current shooters as well.

Edit: Let me rephrase that. The complaints I've read refer to linearity, not tunnel-like level design. They often go together, but are not the same.

I honestly think it's both, personally. At least for me.

Linear makes more sense to me in their level design. They primarily focused on story, so that's acceptable. However, making everything feel like going down a tunnel is not acceptable in this day and age of gaming(for me, obviously). I can't think of many games that have level design like this anymore. Maybe somebody could refresh my memory of a recent game with "funnel down a tunnel" level design?

I really wish they expanded off ME1's level design for ME2/ME3 instead of scrapping it. But they didn't. They enclosed it and went with something they're more familiar with. It worked ok in the game but ME3 felt like everything was built on an arena. I didn't really like that. I mean, playing Mark of the Assassin DLC, I was getting quite annoyed how I couldn't at least walk off the road paths. If you didn't see it on the map, you couldn't walk there. Everything just funneled you down the road.

They can still make their level design "linear" but also "open" it up more. I'm pretty sure this is what they're going to aim for in DA3. Anybody expecting something like Skyrim with be very angry. I'd like to see them make more continuous worlds too. Now, I can understand going to a world map for DA3 to travel to new countries/areas. But I'd like to see some areas with multiple connecting regions. Like, say - Dark Souls or Borderlands 2 design? Those games both have one large world that connects itself. I could see them going the Borderlands 2 route. Explore an area but you have two intersections. One leads to old ruins and the other a small village? Then when you need to travel to a different country, you use the world map and party camp. I could see that. A world that is continuous and persistent in certain areas.

Modifié par deuce985, 07 octobre 2012 - 12:26 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

deuce985 wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

I think we agree about the linearity, but isn't this a general problem? I've run into similar complaints about current shooters as well.

Edit: Let me rephrase that. The complaints I've read refer to linearity, not tunnel-like level design. They often go together, but are not the same.

I honestly think it's both, personally. At least for me.

Linear makes more sense to me in their level design. They primarily focused on story, so that's acceptable. However, making everything feel like a tunnel is not acceptable in this day and age of gaming. I can't think of many games that have level design like this anymore. Maybe somebody could refresh my memory of a recent game with "funnel down a tunnel" level design?

I really wish they built off ME1's level design for ME2/ME3. But they didn't. They enclosed it and went with something they're more familiar with. It worked ok in the game but ME3 felt like everything was built on an arena. I didn't really like that. I mean, playing Mark of the Assassin DLC, I was getting quite annoyed how I couldn't at least walk off the road paths. If you didn't see it on the map, you couldn't walk there. Everything just funneled you down the road.

They can still make their level design "linear" but also "open" it up more. I'm pretty sure this is what they're going to aim for in DA3. Anybody expecting something like Skyrim with be very angry. I'd like to see them make more continuous worlds too. Now, I can understand going to a world map for DA3 to travel to new countries/areas. But I'd like to see some areas with multiple connecting regions. Like, say - Dark Souls or Borderlands 2 design? Those games both have one large world that connects itself. I could see them going the Borderlands 2 route. Explore an area but you have two intersections. One leads to old ruins and the other a small village? Then when you need to travel to a different country, you use the world map and party camp. I could see that. A world that is continuous and persistent in certain areas.

But they don't.