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Kingdoms Of Amalur style combat?


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#201
PaulSX

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The Hierophant wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

DA:O would have been better as a turn based game. It never made the compromise a strategic pause and play game should. Mass Effect did; tactical and real time was combined quite well. Pausing in DA doesn't offer the same advantage it does in Mass Effect because it takes an eternity for team AI to play out. It's caught in an ugly middle ground. DA3 should be turn-based imo.

Sounds like Final Fantasy 12.:)


DAO actually plays quite similiar to FF12 on console and I do not mind they go straight to that direction.

Modifié par suntzuxi, 07 octobre 2012 - 09:19 .


#202
Bfler

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I gave up on The Witcher after 10 minutes because the combat was too twitchy.  


How is the combat in Witcher 1 twitchy? You have to click the attack button in the right moment and you don't have to hammer it like in an H&S game.

Modifié par Bfler, 07 octobre 2012 - 09:20 .


#203
ValiD_TargeT

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I think combat style of DA2 is good. this game is more serious than KoA. KoA looks like an anime

#204
Firky

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Not really into Amalur overall, but I did enjoy combat immensely.

Having said that, how would you control the party with an Amalurian system?

Party combat is 60% of the enjoyment in DA for me, 30% being story and 10% being roleplaying. (I love RP, but it's not really how Dragon Age works for me now.)

I think the party system is really unique and special. Be a shame to lose it, IMO. I have a sinking feeling they might be going that way, with engine and MP, though.

#205
Swagger7

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Teddie Sage wrote...

This is actually a good idea for the gameplay which was too boring for me in Origins, yet a little better in Dragon Age 2. Using a similar fight system in Dragon Age 3 would be cherry on top. Would make my gameplay experience refreshing and less tedious.

Excuse me? Failure of a game? That's not the critics are saying. The sales weren't good, but this doesn't mean it wasn't a good game. Kingdoms of Amalur was a masterpiece underneath its bugs.


Since a game is a product which is intended to turn a profit, poor sales equate to failure.

#206
Sidney

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The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

It would definitely be better than "Button Awesome" was in DA II...

I thought the combat was fine in DA:O, honestly, but I'm not against BioWare trying something new or trying to please both fast-paced combat junkies and those who are looking for a more tactical experience by finding a balance between the two.

So long as they don't remove the ability to switch between party members in combat or program your party members' combat behavior, I should be happy with whatever BioWare cooks up.


Everyone gets hung up on that term but DA2 was the same as DAO. Select a target. sleect a skill, attack happens/ There was no awesome button. Heck, DAO actually had those awful anhimated finishing moves that took up time I wanted my character to be doing something, anything else.

DAO's combat was a mess for a lot of reasons. The pacing was terrible because people took forever to settle on a target and god help you if that target was moving because targeting went to #$%^ in that process.  The way they handled aggro was terrible and created silly results - your mages/archers always drew aggro first because they struck at range and enemeies ran right by your front wall of warriors. Thanks to the awful targeting they could run by with imunity because your defenders would never even swing at them and they was no concept of a zone of control or something that forced an engagement (short of doing some aggro drawing power).

People talk about "tactical" but there was about nothing about DAO because movement and positioning meant about nothing.  DA2 kept on that same line and added the combos to create something interest although not tactical and undermined the whole thing with paratroopers.

#207
Psearo

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ValliD_TargeT wrote...

I think combat style of DA2 is good. this game is more serious than KoA. KoA looks like an anime


The art style of KoA has nothing to do with the combat system.
Nor does it have anything to do with the tone of the story.

Bfler wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I gave up on The Witcher after 10 minutes because the combat was too twitchy.


How is the combat in Witcher 1 twitchy? You have to click the attack button in the right moment and you don't have to hammer it like in an H&S game.


Aye, I thought TW2's combat was a bit of a step-down from TW1, but I wouldn't classify either as twitch-based, though TW2 is closer.
From Morrowind to Skyrim (haven't played Arena or Daggerfall) the TES games have been twitch, with stat support, though less stat in Skyrim compared to Oblivion or Morrowind.


Ultimately though, the game style should determine the combat style.
DA/DA2 -non twitch- for a party-based game.
Individual only or with AI controlled follower(s) for a twitch style combat system.

Lastly, there's no reason that a stat-based combat system can't have a more "action-y" feel to it. It's just about how well the combat can be made flow, the pacing and animations.
Whilst not stat-based, Fable3's combat had good pacing and animations to it i.e. aiming the rifle over the shoulder to hit a target about to attack from behind. Control wise the combat was a bit clumsy for my liking.
Basically, it's more about how the combat looks than what style of combat system that really determines if combat is good in an RPG. As fun a game as Jade Empire was, combat was too limited and should really have focused it's combat to be more like a beat-em up than a semi-typical RPG - punch button & kick button, instead of indiviual styles focusing on fists or feet or flashy effects for spirit attacks, so the combat was repetitive and boring, and won most of the time with Leaping Tiger style.

#208
marshalleck

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Swagger7 wrote...

Teddie Sage wrote...

This is actually a good idea for the gameplay which was too boring for me in Origins, yet a little better in Dragon Age 2. Using a similar fight system in Dragon Age 3 would be cherry on top. Would make my gameplay experience refreshing and less tedious.

Excuse me? Failure of a game? That's not the critics are saying. The sales weren't good, but this doesn't mean it wasn't a good game. Kingdoms of Amalur was a masterpiece underneath its bugs.


Since a game is a product which is intended to turn a profit, poor sales equate to failure.

That's an extremely myopic point of view to take.

#209
nightcobra

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Firky wrote...

Not really into Amalur overall, but I did enjoy combat immensely.

Having said that, how would you control the party with an Amalurian system?

Party combat is 60% of the enjoyment in DA for me, 30% being story and 10% being roleplaying. (I love RP, but it's not really how Dragon Age works for me now.)

I think the party system is really unique and special. Be a shame to lose it, IMO. I have a sinking feeling they might be going that way, with engine and MP, though.


believe me (played a modded version by my cousin, he basically cloned the player character 3 times then we re-spec them into different archetypes and then he outfitted the clones with ally npc AI like Alyn Shir then he managed to input the switch character control function ), amalur is sooo much more fun with a party system, buggy as hell but those were damn good times.

#210
Archagony the Beomir the Great

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Not KoA but should stay tactical but should also require player skill to play a character make fights less like im trying to figure out a strat in a mmo dungeon more like im giving orders on a battlefield

#211
Realmzmaster

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marshalleck wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

Teddie Sage wrote...

This is actually a good idea for the gameplay which was too boring for me in Origins, yet a little better in Dragon Age 2. Using a similar fight system in Dragon Age 3 would be cherry on top. Would make my gameplay experience refreshing and less tedious.

Excuse me? Failure of a game? That's not the critics are saying. The sales weren't good, but this doesn't mean it wasn't a good game. Kingdoms of Amalur was a masterpiece underneath its bugs.


Since a game is a product which is intended to turn a profit, poor sales equate to failure.

That's an extremely myopic point of view to take.


Unfortunately is it the point of view many on this forum take to make a point. Good or great sales must be a great game. Poor or so-so sales must mean a bad game.

I look at it this way the game could be critically acclaimed but a finanicial failure or vice versa.  I use Planescape Torment as an example. The game was critically acclaimed but  even Chris Avellone pointed out it barely broke even.

One has to define what is meant by failure. PST was a financial disappointment as was KOA.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 07 octobre 2012 - 09:03 .


#212
Firky

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nightcobra8928 wrote...

Firky wrote...

Not really into Amalur overall, but I did enjoy combat immensely.

Having said that, how would you control the party with an Amalurian system?

Party combat is 60% of the enjoyment in DA for me, 30% being story and 10% being roleplaying. (I love RP, but it's not really how Dragon Age works for me now.)

I think the party system is really unique and special. Be a shame to lose it, IMO. I have a sinking feeling they might be going that way, with engine and MP, though.


believe me (played a modded version by my cousin, he basically cloned the player character 3 times then we re-spec them into different archetypes and then he outfitted the clones with ally npc AI like Alyn Shir then he managed to input the switch character control function ), amalur is sooo much more fun with a party system, buggy as hell but those were damn good times.


:blink: Wow.

So, the others were controlled by AI?

I'm kind of a micromanager. Like. In DA2, I turned everything off and controlled everything everyone did. Like Baldur's Gate.

I dunno. It's that one thing DA does special. Like, Skyrim does open world, Witcher does meaningfully branching choice/consequence, DA does party.

#213
nightcobra

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Firky wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Firky wrote...

Not really into Amalur overall, but I did enjoy combat immensely.

Having said that, how would you control the party with an Amalurian system?

Party combat is 60% of the enjoyment in DA for me, 30% being story and 10% being roleplaying. (I love RP, but it's not really how Dragon Age works for me now.)

I think the party system is really unique and special. Be a shame to lose it, IMO. I have a sinking feeling they might be going that way, with engine and MP, though.


believe me (played a modded version by my cousin, he basically cloned the player character 3 times then we re-spec them into different archetypes and then he outfitted the clones with ally npc AI like Alyn Shir then he managed to input the switch character control function ), amalur is sooo much more fun with a party system, buggy as hell but those were damn good times.


:blink: Wow.

So, the others were controlled by AI?

I'm kind of a micromanager. Like. In DA2, I turned everything off and controlled everything everyone did. Like Baldur's Gate.

I dunno. It's that one thing DA does special. Like, Skyrim does open world, Witcher does meaningfully branching choice/consequence, DA does party.


yeah they were controlled by AI (a bit wonky but certainly serviceable), though you could switch between characters like in DA (without the pausing though) 

#214
Firky

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That sounds both cool and bonkers! ;)

#215
Sylvius the Mad

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Bfler wrote...

How is the combat in Witcher 1 twitchy? You have to click the attack button in the right moment and you don't have to hammer it like in an H&S game.

You have to click it for every attack, and it's timing-based.

#216
Sylvius the Mad

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Not to detract from your point but.... how would a quadriplegic be able to play an RPG? Wouldn't they be unable to due to not having any control over their arms? Wouldn't the correct term be paraplegic?

A paraplegic has no disability in his arms.  A paraplegic could play any game that didn't have pedals.

Quadriplegics often have some limited control over their hands or arms (or one of them), or can issue commands using breathing tubes or head/eye movement.

I'm saying that any timing requirements at all are too steep a barrier.  If Stephen Hawking can't play the game (with the single button controls on his wheelchair computer, then the game is too heavily dependent upon player skill.

#217
The Hierophant

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suntzuxi wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

DA:O would have been better as a turn based game. It never made the compromise a strategic pause and play game should. Mass Effect did; tactical and real time was combined quite well. Pausing in DA doesn't offer the same advantage it does in Mass Effect because it takes an eternity for team AI to play out. It's caught in an ugly middle ground. DA3 should be turn-based imo.

Sounds like Final Fantasy 12.:)


DAO actually plays quite similiar to FF12 on console and I do not mind they go straight to that direction.

Same here.

#218
Sylvius the Mad

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I want tactical movement control, something DAO lacked on consoles.

KotOR also lacked that. It was perhaps KotOR's greatest failing.

#219
Firky

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I'm saying that any timing requirements at all are too steep a barrier.  If Stephen Hawking can't play the game (with the single button controls on his wheelchair computer, then the game is too heavily dependent upon player skill.


I was chatting with a guy one time who had played The Witcher, but couldn't play The Witcher 2 because they'd removed click to move. (He used some kind of mouth operated controller.)

I'd never really thought of "click to move" as a feature for accessibility but it is, obviously.

That example worried me in particular, because it happened mid-series. Like, if they removed click to move from DA3, it might alienate people who are already invested.

Just a thought.

#220
Lethys1

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There's reasons Amalur was a complete bust.  One reason is financial negligence.  The other was the awful movement, which felt like ice-skating.  But the third was that the allegedly fantastic combat system was mediocre.  I'm sure if the movement was better that the combat would've been as well, but it certainly wasn't some type of revolutionary system.  Didn't keep me playing.

The Dragon Age: Origins combat system was great, except for some balancing issues and lack of variety.  A little bit more visual flare and a little bit more flexibility added to the DA:O combat system is what this game needs.  And it needs DA:O's ability to plan ahead for attacks, instead of DA2's constantly-spawning bad guys (which throw tactics out the window entirely).

Modifié par Lethys1, 08 octobre 2012 - 05:10 .


#221
Aleya

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Impractical in a game where you also have to control 3 companions. I agree it was awesome for a true SP, but just imagine having to coordinate blocks, dodges, two weapon sets, and special attacks for 4 characters at once.

#222
TheShadowWolf911

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no, don't give EA any more ideas.

#223
deatharmonic

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Aleya wrote...

Impractical in a game where you also have to control 3 companions. I agree it was awesome for a true SP, but just imagine having to coordinate blocks, dodges, two weapon sets, and special attacks for 4 characters at once.


That's true. If they did impliment combat like that they would have to take away the ability to switch between characters for it to not be a complete mind ****. So I accept it would not be practical to encorporate any block, parry, dodge elements. Though if that's the case I would like to see combat at least look more like combat. So rather than two guys standing there and swinging, perhaps they could develop what was in DAO more in which a high dexterity meant your character would dodge/parry attacks more, higher strength means they would block more. If combat isn't going to feel more like combat at least make it look like combat.

#224
Swagger7

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marshalleck wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

Teddie Sage wrote...

This is actually a good idea for the gameplay which was too boring for me in Origins, yet a little better in Dragon Age 2. Using a similar fight system in Dragon Age 3 would be cherry on top. Would make my gameplay experience refreshing and less tedious.

Excuse me? Failure of a game? That's not the critics are saying. The sales weren't good, but this doesn't mean it wasn't a good game. Kingdoms of Amalur was a masterpiece underneath its bugs.


Since a game is a product which is intended to turn a profit, poor sales equate to failure.

That's an extremely myopic point of view to take.


I wasn't saying that a game with poor sales can't be fun.  It's just that the devs (and EA) would view it as a failure, since at the end of the day their main task is to turn a profit.  This is their job after all, so I don't see them taking any cues from a game that did poorly, "masterpiece" or not.

#225
milena87

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No, that would imply losing the party-based combat of Dragon Age and linking the chance of success to the player's skill.
We already have games like that.