444 réponses à ce sujet

[DragonRageGT]

lorderon99999 wrote...

Look....a groupe of thug should not be able to put me down when I killed a dragon 5min earlier...

C'mon... I can read! The groupe of thug put him down... Clearly he's not the elite player he thought he was! And then, instead of improving his gaming he claims "game broken"... I was there, felt the same thing but never ever came to this forum and cryed "game broken cuz I'm elite and thugs kill me"...

Instead, I went thru a whole bunch of tactics threads, best built threads, combat tips threads and played the game till I got it. I'm no elite but I surely don't die to mobs, whatever level they may have, with whatever char I may play. To Dragons or some other particular boss I solo'ed for the sake of it, oh yeah.. quite a few reloads indeed.

But saying that whatever random encounter is "as difficult as" a major boss battle, it is simply not true!

[DragonRageGT]

NotMyName13 wrote...

RageGT wrote...

LOL... I love this...  "The op does not think the difficulty is the problem"...  "but an encounter with "white" mobs should not be AS DIFFICULT AS a legendary High Dragon".... do you realize the contradiction or is it just me?

Learn to comprend the whole post in context not just what you choose to single out. NOTHING IN THIS GAME IS DIFFICULT, EVEN ON NIGHTMARE. No contradiction there. Next.

Hey, it was you who said it: "--->PROBLEM: YOU ARE LEVEL 18 AND A GROUP OF NORMAL THUG/GENLOCK ETC. POSES THE SAME CHALLENGE AS A LEGENDARY HIGH DRAGON."

My answer: It is not true. They only pose the same challenge, if any challenge at all, if you don't know how to play! So you "solution" is just as false as the problem. My solution... Learn to Play!

[Farrrongoth]

LOL! This is my first time ever replying on a forum I usually read then leave.



I find this particularly interesting because I would usually be on the otherside of this argument, but this game really makes it work, just as oblivion did



I can see where your coming from with the item leveling as there description can quite often make them seem epic but I have a few examples to put forward the first being the

Aegis of Havard: you get it as Yew Wood but is easily more powerful than Red Steel and Ironbark and only slightly weaker than Silverite and Sylvanwood

Meteor Sword you can forge as longsword or Greatsword (well there the option I got) and easily the most powerful of it type either and has absolutely no restrictions

Aodh is always Silverite and has bonus stats

Juggernaut is also always Silverite, if the Revenants weren't scaled you'd have to wait to get it

And there others such as these

[DragonRageGT]

NotMyName13 wrote...

reepneep wrote...

RageGT wrote...

reepneep wrote...

God, does no one have any reading comprehension skills? The OP is complaining about the logical problem of a few random street thugs being as great a threat to the party as a four story tall firebreathing lizard. The only thing you can say to this is 'Its a game, of course it's supposed to get harder as you go along'. That just metagaming logic, and the OP wishes this weren't the case. He's asking if it really make sense that our group of battle-hardened PCs is seriously challenged by a a group of glorified cutpurses. It doesn't unless you're subscribing to the theory that because it's a game, every opponent should be formidable. It makes just as much sense as every bandit in Tamriel suddenly finding sets of Daedric armor because the PC has reached the proper level.

Its like expecting a squad of commandos who spent the last ten years fighting in guerilla warfare in various third world hellholes to be seriously challenged by a group of gangbangers with glocks in south LA.

OP doesn't dislike level scaling because it makes the game too hard (he said he plays on nightmare without a healing mage for chrissake), he dislikes it because of the logical problems it creates.

These inconsistancies do damage the believability of the world. I happen to think it's worth it to make every fight entertainingly difficult, but its still a problem.

The only instance when what you say happens is when the player is new to the game and doesn't know how to build a char or a party. Seriously now, anyone having problems with anything in this game after a full run, has some serious learning deficit thing. My Nightmare run was so easy compared to my first in Hard mode that I actually came to the forums and asked it that was normal!

Old but true: Created about 1 month ago

http://social.biowar.../9/index/313167

WTF?

Reading comprehention:  u no haz it

+1 QFT. Seems like a selecitve reader that Rage.

Really? It is not I who am starting from a false premise and then negating what the whole bunch of people who posted here said:

Again... from his post.... "He's asking if it really make sense that our group of battle-hardened PCs is seriously challenged by a a group of glorified cutpurses. It doesn't unless you're subscribing to the theory that because it's a game, every opponent should be formidable."

Premise is FALSE. The only group of battle-hardened PCs that is seriously challenged by  a group of glorified cutpurses is that which has a NOOB behind the keyboard!

Modifié par RageGT, 29 décembre 2009 - 05:25 .

[NotMyName13]

RageGT wrote...

Hey, it was you who said it: "--->PROBLEM: YOU ARE LEVEL 18 AND A GROUP OF NORMAL THUG/GENLOCK ETC. POSES THE SAME CHALLENGE AS A LEGENDARY HIGH DRAGON."

My answer: It is not true. They only pose the same challenge, if any challenge at all, if you don't know how to play! So you "solution" is just as false as the problem. My solution... Learn to Play!

At level 18+ yes the thugs are easier, but, as this is a non-linear RPG it is entirely possible to encounter said white trash mobs at around level 10, same as the  high dragon. At those early levels effort to defeat both encounters is "easy enough", but is basically a wash.  That's what's being contested. Check the toolset and the "overlap" of level scaling of the "thug" vs "high dragon" at those levels.

Now if those so called thugs were rebranded "elite assassins"....

[Sidney]

RageGT wrote...

Premise is FALSE. The only group of battle-hardened PCs that is seriously challenged by  a group of glorified cutpurses is that which has a NOOB behind the keyboard!

Silly, period. I know the uber-gamers solo this on Double Plus Nightmare Catastrophe while wearing a blindfold and having their hearing suppressed with Nickleback songs done by Alvin and the Chipmunks but for us mere mortals the game offers up plenty of difficult fights - not unwinnable but still fights where people die and health gets really low on a couple of others. I've played 2 full runs and am mid-go on my 3rd so i know what I'm doing. Thing is if you aren't 100% micromanaging everything things are tougher - and please don't tell me how you must micromanage everything to be a REAL gamer - but then again that is sort of the point. If I have to niggle eey edge out of my characters to beat Bandits then they're a pretty tough fight.

[DragonRageGT]

@Farrrongoth - Thanks! I really didn't understand a thing from that post. 'Tis not my language! =)

@NotMyName13 - Whatever man. All I'm saying is no matter what level, no matter what we face, after we acquired some skill with the game, nothing can kill us. Sure, I have some reloads on major battles but other than that no. And after my first char who finished with 20 injuries... all my runs are Zero Injuries, all in Nightmare... so yeah, I'm Kind of a Big Deal!

@Sidney - After I learned how to set tactics efficiently, I don't have to micromanage that much anymore. It works very well for me now. And no, I'm no Ubber player... just a regular one who has lots of time to play... entering 500 hrs into it soon.

Modifié par RageGT, 29 décembre 2009 - 05:47 .

[Inarai]

lorderon99999 wrote...

Inarai wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

WE DON'T WANT LEVEL SCALLING!

CORRECTION:  You don't.  There's a lot of people who like it just fine.

And frankly, a well placed slash or lucky stab will kill you, period.

This is a fantasy game my friend....if it were not almost anything would kill us 1 shot that why we have hit points and all

And it follows it's own rules - thus tossing any notion about whether or not something SHOULD kill you out the window.  It matters merely whether or not it can.

[Farrrongoth]

Wicked retort Inarai

You been waiting for that reply?

[Deception_2112]

Lol why are you guys calling the OP a pirate? If he really did pirate the game then why the hell should he complain, he didn't pay a cent for the game...



Anyway if you think level scaling is bad in this game, why don't you go try Oblivion OP, i don't see anything wrong with it, and i've soloed mobs/dragons and etc as an Arcane Warior

[Farrrongoth]

Deception_2112 wrote...

Lol why are you guys calling the OP a pirate? If he really did pirate the game then why the hell should he complain, he didn't pay a cent for the game...

Anyway if you think level scaling is bad in this game, why don't you go try Oblivion OP, i don't see anything wrong with it, and i've soloed mobs/dragons and etc as an Arcane Warior

They not referring to him as a pirate in that way

[Deception_2112]

Torias wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...
The fight in Denerim with some thugs would still be as hard as a dragon fight.

Yes, that's intentional.

This game is meant to be difficult.

It provides a good challenge for your party design to be tested against.

It was intentional to make a bunch of bandits in Denerim at the same level of difficulty as the Archdemon/High Dragon. Under that concept why don't we just go grab a bunch of these guys and send them to kill the Archdemon, it seems very likely they'd manage it

[Deception_2112]

Farrrongoth wrote...

Deception_2112 wrote...

Lol why are you guys calling the OP a pirate? If he really did pirate the game then why the hell should he complain, he didn't pay a cent for the game...

Anyway if you think level scaling is bad in this game, why don't you go try Oblivion OP, i don't see anything wrong with it, and i've soloed mobs/dragons and etc as an Arcane Warior

They not referring to him as a pirate in that way

But the OP does have a point, not so much level scaling but the fact that mere humans were would as difficult as the Archdemon/High Dragon. Ser Cautherien was one, i mean seriously why can't we just make her a Warden and send her against the Archdemon, she'd win for sure

[Farrrongoth]

Deception_2112 wrote...

Farrrongoth wrote...

Deception_2112 wrote...

Lol why are you guys calling the OP a pirate? If he really did pirate the game then why the hell should he complain, he didn't pay a cent for the game...

Anyway if you think level scaling is bad in this game, why don't you go try Oblivion OP, i don't see anything wrong with it, and i've soloed mobs/dragons and etc as an Arcane Warior

They not referring to him as a pirate in that way

But the OP does have a point, not so much level scaling but the fact that mere humans were would as difficult as the Archdemon/High Dragon. Ser Cautherien was one, i mean seriously why can't we just make her a Warden and send her against the Archdemon, she'd win for sure

A human is not as powerful as a dragon, but a group of human can present a similar challenge as they are capable of working to together I gaurantee if you make a mod and put and elite boss bandit against a an elite boss dragon that the dragon will win every time, but you put enough lieutenant (approx NPC equivalent to PC) bandit against elite boss dragon you'll find they will eventually be able to win.

Modifié par Farrrongoth, 29 décembre 2009 - 06:29 .

[Rainen89]

Unless of course that elite boss bandit has a bow and is familir with the "dragons can't walk issue" then that bandit is gonna kick some dragon tail.

[Rainen89]

Ruddy double post.

Modifié par Rainen89, 29 décembre 2009 - 06:24 .

[whtnyte-raernst]

Also, if you pay attention to what your told in the "Back alley" quest, it wasn't just a roving band of thugs. More like a mafia type organization.

[Farrrongoth]

Rainen89 wrote...

Unless of course that elite boss bandit has a bow and is familir with the "dragons can't walk issue" then that bandit is gonna kick some dragon tail.

Erm.. the dragon can still reach with fire ball and would still win

[Rainen89]

Fireball does such pitiful damage though, compared to melee attacks it's not even in the same class.

[Deception_2112]

Still i dont like the fact that the High Dragon was easier than them, i didn't have trouble with either given my mage was broken. They're bandits damnit, they're supposed to be hard yes, but they're not supposed to be harder to kill than a Dragon who's awakening causes devastation in the land, or the Archdemon who topples kingdoms. I mean seriously, those bandits were harder to beat than the main villian, why can't we just send them to do our job for us

[Danimal66]

Farrrongoth wrote...

LOL! This is my first time ever replying on a forum I usually read then leave.

I find this particularly interesting because I would usually be on the otherside of this argument, but this game really makes it work, just as oblivion did

I hate encounter scaling, or level scaling WTF it is being called. To be honest i didn't notice it in this game, I guess because i was having fun. But it killed Oblivion for me, I remember coming out of the sewers, seeing a tower and entering. Crawling down each level wondering if I should procede. Only to have that illusion shattered when I found out I was only going to encounter things at my level.

There is omsething to be said for a game that kicks your arse if you go somewhere you're not ready for. That's not what todays players want IMO, they want games they can beat. It's all about beating the game, making it possible to get through, it's not about the experience.

Demon Souls is a tough game but it's a a hell of a ride because you do get your arse handed to you when you take on things you're not ready for.  It makes the game more intense and a much better experience, again IMO.

[DragonRageGT]

Deception_2112 wrote...

But the OP does have a point, not so much level scaling but the fact that mere humans were would as difficult as the Archdemon/High Dragon. Ser Cautherien was one, i mean seriously why can't we just make her a Warden and send her against the Archdemon, she'd win for sure

No bunch of anything is as hard as the biatch Dragon or JaxFang (names have been changed to protect the.. spoiler). Torias may have said that but it doesn't make it true either, not in that proportion he may have suggested. Yes, Denerim thieves quest require attention during the fights but not nearly all the management a major boss may require and honestly... compare the amount of reloads there with that you may need vs a Dragon... if you do have to reload to the bandits and perhaps to the Dragon too.

Now, Ser Cauthrien is the hardest single NPC in the game ONLY at the first meeting with her and only because she's supposed to win the fight. Still, we can beat her good and I didn't even needed a reload in my last two runs. At the second meeting with her, assuming you let them take you after beating her or just surrendered, she's a wuss. A regular fighter that Branka could tear down in a split second!

Lots of people just kill them all right there at the first meeting and lose one of the funniest acts in the whole game! Since it might take us around 20 replays to watch them all, I mounted a collection with them and they're in the Epilogue and in the Prison Break E.E., movies of my Best Party (Banter) series which lots of people enjoyed and only then decided they had to try that in a future run. It is hilarious and if you always kill that overpowered b**** in the first meeting, give it a try!

Clearly, the complaint about scaling here is mostly from people who had bad experience with Oblivion scaling, like dying to a wolf or rat or montain lion at level 15, for instance. But even there a good built char can overcome that and past level 20 game gets rather boring since nothing is really challenging... with 2 chars at 54 and over 60 oblivion gates closed with each one, I'm damn sure of what I'm talking about. Scaling in Oblivion was never a problem to me anyway, I didn't mind all bandits having top gear as it only meant top money for my char!

If a particular fight seems too hard in DA:O, change your approach to it, as many times as it takes until you find an optimum solution. It's not healthy to keep banging the head against the wall hoping you can break the wall. It's far more likely you'll just crack your skull and it's called... insanity! Humans know nothing at birth... but humans are the only ones who can learn from their mistakes. (perhaps elves and dwarves too, why not!)

[stillnotking]

It's actually pretty unusual for the last boss fight in a game to be absolutely THE HARDEST fight in that game.



Anyway, here's how I think about it: just as "hit points" are supposed to represent not only your character's literal physical health but also an implied ability to avoid attacks, roll with blows, etc., so encounter difficulties are tuned to represent unique circumstances. So, it might very well be the case that taking on the Archdemon with an army at your back is actually easier than surviving a back alley mugging when you've been drinking all night. Some of history's greatest conquerors died in ignominious ways.



I think this is an issue of familiarity more than anything else: players are used to games where their characters can, at a certain level, literally mow down hordes of weaker enemies without taking a scratch. If you think about it, though, that isn't actually very realistic. I'm glad to see games moving in a direction where any encounter is potentially lethal.

[Inarai]

Farrrongoth wrote...

Wicked retort Inarai
You been waiting for that reply?

No, just, you know, not here.