444 réponses à ce sujet

[Torias]

Deception_2112 wrote...

Still i dont like the fact that the High Dragon was easier than them, i didn't have trouble with either given my mage was broken. They're bandits damnit, they're supposed to be hard yes, but they're not supposed to be harder to kill than a Dragon who's awakening causes devastation in the land, or the Archdemon who topples kingdoms. I mean seriously, those bandits were harder to beat than the main villian, why can't we just send them to do our job for us

So your problem is that the in game fiction didn't match up to the gameplay mechanics?

That's a valid point, for sure.

Would you have been happy if the "name" of the enemy was scaled as well?

So instead of being killed by a huge pack of bandits, you're instead getting killed by a huge pack of "elite awesome bandits"... would that be better?

[NotMyName13]

Torias wrote...

So instead of being killed by a huge pack of bandits, you're instead getting killed by a huge pack of "elite awesome bandits"... would that be better?

So after 11 pages a few people do actually begin to see what's being said, aside for the 3 or 4 who have from the beginning. You see, it may just be a case of optics, but perception along with atmosphere is part of immersion is it not?

And to the logic that Ser Cauthrien is the single toughest enemy, then by RP logic, she should indeed be conscripted(whether she survives or not), according to the game's own lore. AGAIN THIS GAME IS EASY EVEN ON NIGHTMARE(to placate anyone who will reply "lol learn 2 play").

[sp0lh4us]

Torias wrote...

Deception_2112 wrote...

Still i dont like the fact that the High Dragon was easier than them, i didn't have trouble with either given my mage was broken. They're bandits damnit, they're supposed to be hard yes, but they're not supposed to be harder to kill than a Dragon who's awakening causes devastation in the land, or the Archdemon who topples kingdoms. I mean seriously, those bandits were harder to beat than the main villian, why can't we just send them to do our job for us

So your problem is that the in game fiction didn't match up to the gameplay mechanics?

That's a valid point, for sure.

Would you have been happy if the "name" of the enemy was scaled as well?

So instead of being killed by a huge pack of bandits, you're instead getting killed by a huge pack of "elite awesome bandits"... would that be better?

Actually? Yes, that would. Let me refer to BG II again, where you found liches instead of skeletons if your level was high enough...
Reading thru the whole post was tiresome, but well worth it.
Gaming community has been changed thru the years and so does the expectations.
Today, level scaling is accepted, even in this poor form as DA:O represents it.
I'm with the OP in this paticular issue, DA:O's level scaling is messed up, but I won't blame Bioware for it. I'm quite sure that they left many things unfinished and raw to beat the release date. A pity it is (level scaling) something that may never be corrected/redesigned/reworked.
BG II was/is my favorite cRPG, and I really loved that I felt my party superior sometimes. There was a good balance in there. We've seen Oblivion fell to level scaling. (We=the old timer RP'ers). I doubt DA:O would ever
fell for it, 'cos it has a lot to offer story-wise amongst other things. I love DA:O, never felt that my money was spent in vain, but I would certainly change lots of things. One of them is the irrational level scaling. Do understand, I wouldn't REMOVE it, but in some areas it could use serious refinement. Just my two coppers...

[Grommash94]

DA level scaling is not messed up. It is FAR FAR better than scaling in Oblivion for one thing. Scaling was necessary, as this game isn't incredibly linear....lets say the Brecilian Forest was meant to be done first...but you did it last....it would be INCREDIBLY boring.

[Spitz6860]

well, i think it's pretty obvious why they used level scaling in this game. after a certain point of the game you are advised to go to many different places on your world map so level scaling allows you to go to any of them in any order. from a game design point of view you don't want any of those areas or chapters, which ever you prefer to call them, to be too easy or too hard, especially for a tactical RPG. for example you don't want the mobs in dwarf city to be locked at lvl20ish, so if you choose to go there first, there is no way you can complete your objective there. so either they put in level scaling or make you go to those places in a linear order.

[sp0lh4us]

I thought I should have been more polite. Let me correct that and say that the level scaling is somewhat flat and simple instead of 'messed up'.

As I pointed out, gamers changed and so does games, accordingly.

For us who loved and played BG I-II, Morrowind, Fallout and all the great titles of the past, today's level scaling is a little hard to digest. I can adapt thou: I won't remove level scaling from the game alltogether. But with a little work it could make the game better. Somewhere in the future I would love to remember this game as much love as I remember the BG series.

I took up the OP's banner siply because he is right when he says the scaling system need some rewamp and got hit hard by many without well explained reasoning.

[Spitz6860]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Spitz6860 wrote...

well, i think it's pretty obvious why they used level scaling in this game. after a certain point of the game you are advised to go to many different places on your world map so level scaling allows you to go to any of them in any order. from a game design point of view you don't want any of those areas or chapters, which ever you prefer to call them, to be too easy or too hard, especially for a tactical RPG. for example you don't want the mobs in dwarf city to be locked at lvl20ish, so if you choose to go there first, there is no way you can complete your objective there. so either they put in level scaling or make you go to those places in a linear order.

All of which we know, the question is 'can the developers manage the process in a way that doesn’t lay the game mechanics bare quite so noticeably'?

you mean to take out level scaling and allow some degree of freedom at the same time? i don't know, that's pretty much saying your character progression needs to be meaningless. the most common method is to reskin&rename creatures, like spider<poisonous spider<black widow etc, but then i don't think that works on thugs that the OP was talking about lol

[FordBash]

I love DAO and I dont see this game needs a change, maybe one or two more dlc's and an expansion to help fund and carry us over to DAO 2. Just to be real though, this game has been made and whats the point in waisting time and resources on a game that is already set with a growing community. We should be thankful for the time and money they invested so we can play this game. Heck, we already spent our money buying this game, so lets just be greatful for the massive work they put into the actual story. Its very rude to ask a game designer to change the bases of something they already worked months on.

I am glad to see that alot of people do voice their concerns because it will make the next DAO better but most of you show a lack of gratitude that is really unsetteling. Please just try to see the bigger picture and maybe make a topic that helps them improve on the next DAO, instead of bashing the game that is already out.

Games have evolved alot since pong, and so have we. This game is here not only to let us enjoy our time but expand the way we think. I mean shoot, I've never met a hard game for me and this is a first which is strange. Heck my 6 year old brother playes better then I do, and I'm greatful that some times it takes me hours to beat something because I feel like I actually did something and thought my way through things.

It would be nice to see a more expanded level scalling system. Like added mobs or upgraded mobs that are a noticable difference, this would bring a sense of change and make us feel like the game world is expanding infront of our eyes. Just this game is already massive and you got to think of everything they already added. To have a great game you need to first be able to make money off of it. Then you have to think of the casual pc gamer that doesnt know much about comptuers or doesnt have the money to upgrade their computers. Bioware did great in adding just enough to make money but still make the game playable for all.

Also, to me it seemed like they were testing alot of things out to try and expand and figure out what works and what doesnt. That way they can make an even better game later on. Over all I know its way to soon to say, but I cant wait to hear what they are planning next.

Modifié par FordBash, 29 décembre 2009 - 11:36 .

[Fluffykeith]

Just had a thought (dangerous, I know) about the comparisons between the dragon fights and the denerim bandit fights. I found both to be challenging, but not impossible...and they were challenging for very differant reasons.



The dragon is a single very powerful opponent, with lots of health and armour and seriously vicious attacks...while the bandits, as individuals, are kinda weak. It's the weight of numbers that gives them their edge. Even a super powered elite hero can fall if he comes up against overwhelming enemy numbers. Just like Duncan.



I did the high dragon and the denerim bandits at roughly the same level, 18-19 I think, and I noticed that I was dropping the bandits fairly quickly, it was just that I was outnumbered something like four to one, and the bandits were using a solid ambush tactic.

[Skellimancer]

Torias wrote...

Bioware disagrees.

This is a tactical combat RPG.

If your level 20 2h warrior is badly designed, or in a badly composed or badly equipped party, then yes, they are likely to die.

The constant challenge is there to provide something to stress test your decisions and your tactical capabilities.

The characters don't get more powerful because they level up.

They get more powerful if the player makes intelligent decisions about how to design them, how to equip them and how to compose the party, and if the player learns more about how to tactically use their party of characters in combat.

TL;DR version: Make sure you have a Mage as thats the only "tactical" decision you need to make in this game.

I agree with the OP and i have beat the whole game on nightmare. the scaling is retarded, common thugs should not be epic fighters/archers/mages otherwise they would own the city in a few days.

Also you make the last battles of the game so easy that you one shot mobs but Thugs are elite ownage machines?

[Inarai]

On the other hand, though, if you make the thugs weak those encounters suck.



Really, now, the best way to fix it would require a more robust system of character options - an excellent thing if it can be made to work, mind you.

[VeeVito]

Skellimancer wrote...

Torias wrote...

Bioware disagrees.

This is a tactical combat RPG.

If your level 20 2h warrior is badly designed, or in a badly composed or badly equipped party, then yes, they are likely to die.

The constant challenge is there to provide something to stress test your decisions and your tactical capabilities.

The characters don't get more powerful because they level up.

They get more powerful if the player makes intelligent decisions about how to design them, how to equip them and how to compose the party, and if the player learns more about how to tactically use their party of characters in combat.

TL;DR version: Make sure you have a Mage as thats the only "tactical" decision you need to make in this game.

I agree with the OP and i have beat the whole game on nightmare. the scaling is retarded, common thugs should not be epic fighters/archers/mages otherwise they would own the city in a few days.

Also you make the last battles of the game so easy that you one shot mobs but Thugs are elite ownage machines?

I think there is a disconnect of sorts here or at least a heck of a wide range of gaming experiences going on for some reason. Yes, bands of thiugs that scale to you can be a challenge due to numbers or the pre positioning they have in certain ambushes, but i've yet to come across a band (at first yes but not after i've gotten the feel of the game) that could be considered elite ownage machines or anywhere near the experience of a boss encounter.

Even when they scale, individually, they are pretty weak for your characters. Haven't played nightmare yet though, in which case they should be closer to elite ownage machines.

So whether you like the scaling or not, I understand the complaints with it, I still haven't encountered a group of thugs or common darkspawn that, due to scaling, become so hard that they make you long for the easy peasy days of dragon slaying or make you feel like you are a burlap sack wearing commoner.

[Skellimancer]

VeeVito wrote...


I think there is a disconnect of sorts here or at least a heck of a wide range of gaming experiences going on for some reason. Yes, bands of thiugs that scale to you can be a challenge due to numbers or the pre positioning they have in certain ambushes, but i've yet to come across a band (at first yes but not after i've gotten the feel of the game) that could be considered elite ownage machines or anywhere near the experience of a boss encounter.

Even when they scale, individually, they are pretty weak for your characters. Haven't played nightmare yet though, in which case they should be closer to elite ownage machines.

So whether you like the scaling or not, I understand the complaints with it, I still haven't encountered a group of thugs or common darkspawn that, due to scaling, become so hard that they make you long for the easy peasy days of dragon slaying or make you feel like you are a burlap sack wearing commoner.

On nightmare they chain scattershot you. its also a fight where you walk up to the leader to start a conversation before the fight, so all your party is exposed. without a mage in your group the fight is impossible.

Modifié par Skellimancer, 29 décembre 2009 - 01:56 .

[stillnotking]

On nightmare they chain scattershot you. its also a fight where you walk up to the leader to start a conversation before the fight, so all your party is exposed. without a mage in your group the fight is impossible.

You might want to be careful using words like "impossible".  People have soloed this game with just about every class and spec.

Indomitable prevents Scattershot stun, and with high enough armor and health values it won't kill you anyway.  They typically focus your highest-armor character.  This fight is simply not that bad.  A lot of posters here are dramatically overstating it.

[DragonRageGT]

Skellimancer wrote...

TL;DR version: Make sure you have a Mage as thats the only "tactical" decision you need to make in this game.

I agree with the OP and i have beat the whole game on nightmare. the scaling is retarded, common thugs should not be epic fighters/archers/mages otherwise they would own the city in a few days.

Also you make the last battles of the game so easy that you one shot mobs but Thugs are elite ownage machines?

Try not having a Mage at all in NM and those bandits are still easy pray for a well build and developed lvl18+ party, as long as you know what and how to do it.

Try invading any Slums in Rio de Janeiro and tell those mob guys there that their top-of-line weaponry, mostly Army-restricted machine-guns and other heavy weapons, does not correspond to reality. They are just lousy under-fed poor people after all. Which became part of MW2 campaign, iirc! Never played it, no idea if the game let the army wins there but I assure you that RL doesn't!

[Fluffykeith]

Thing is, the thugs aren't elite ownage machines. They outnumber you, but no matter what level you are when you encounter them, they can't beat you one on one. So what if they can shattershot you? If you spent any time at all planning your partys abilities and equipment, you'll be able to deal with it. I can think of quite a few ways to shrug off chain shattershot. Using indominitable and warcry is one. The AOE stun from holy smite Is another. I beat those thugs without losing any party members, without an AOE caster...my Mage was designed to heal and single target CC only, so my combat damage was melée. Still wasn't overwhelmed by the thugs.

[Skellimancer]

RageGT wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

TL;DR version: Make sure you have a Mage as thats the only "tactical" decision you need to make in this game.

I agree with the OP and i have beat the whole game on nightmare. the scaling is retarded, common thugs should not be epic fighters/archers/mages otherwise they would own the city in a few days.

Also you make the last battles of the game so easy that you one shot mobs but Thugs are elite ownage machines?

Try not having a Mage at all in NM and those bandits are still easy pray for a well build and developed lvl18+ party, as long as you know what and how to do it.

By all means, tell us how you did it.

[VeeVito]

Difficulty became part of the topic when it was cited as a reason why level scaling fails. For example when the whole premise of the thread is that bandits shouldn't be as difficult or "present a constant challenge" as a dragon.



The scaling is not that bad in this game. Other than nightmare, no bandit or generic darkspawn encounter makes you feel all that weak after awhile. One on one they are pretty weak even with scaling. The challenge is in the numbers and whether they get the drop on you.



Nightmare "should" be the exception that makes them unnaturally difficult with scaling.



But, you can't say that scaling is bad because it makes certain generic encounters difficult and then decide to remove difficulty from the discussion. I think "constant challenge" was what the OP mentioned as his problem with it.



And that's fine, all a matter of taste.

[stillnotking]

Fandango9641 wrote...

This thread has become less a discussion surrounding the relative merits of implementing level scaling than it has a thread about navigating difficult enemy encounters. Could we please remove 'difficulty' from the equation and move the discussion back to the more salient topic of breaking immersion for the sake of simplifying game design?

I don't see the problem here.  I guess they could have put in some kind of ad hoc explanation for the scaling, but I certainly can't think of one that would really be satisfying.  To me it's just part of suspension of disbelief, like... oh, say, the fact that it's supposedly INCREDIBLY URGENT to stop the Blight as soon as possible, and yet you have unlimited time to wander all over the country as many times as you feel like.  Or pausing the game to issue orders in a fight.  Or the fact that only one retarded kid in the entire game is capable of inserting a rune into a weapon socket.

Edit: I'd also add that what really breaks immersion for me is the opposite of scaling.  Let's say you're a warrior.  Is it really realistic that a group of bandits would pose absolutely no threat to you at level 20?  I actually don't like games where my character eventually becomes Superman, totally immune to all but the strongest mobs.  That really makes me feel like I am playing a game rather than experiencing a story.  Like I said before, I think this is a familiarity issue.  The "worthless-peon-to-invincible-juggernaut" leveling continuum that is standard for the genre is the legacy of technical limitations that don't necessarily apply any more.

Modifié par stillnotking, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:27 .

[DragonRageGT]

Skellimancer wrote...

RageGT wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

TL;DR version: Make sure you have a Mage as thats the only "tactical" decision you need to make in this game.

I agree with the OP and i have beat the whole game on nightmare. the scaling is retarded, common thugs should not be epic fighters/archers/mages otherwise they would own the city in a few days.

Also you make the last battles of the game so easy that you one shot mobs but Thugs are elite ownage machines?

Try not having a Mage at all in NM and those bandits are still easy pray for a well build and developed lvl18+ party, as long as you know what and how to do it.

By all means, tell us how you did it.

I don't tell... I show... if you take the time to watch... and don't go doubting me again it is NM because it is fraking NM! Not my fault I am a regular powerbuilder, a powergamer and I love RP powerful characters!


Dragon Battle (this one you've seen already, Skellie)


A few randon encounters with lots of mobs, some unique encounters and bosses! SPOILER ALERT)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zngzB5sAtU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSfuu1rrZBw  (I'd say the song here fits this whole thread!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D55kiwUZB0A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtFVzy827WQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc7uu7FMbys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5XhEV8nG0Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cYbZV9OgYE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrJVdNOYzIc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C9ZHBCcags

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-XqkPUPfQQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuedcCfsjsc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTs7cvP0SY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoLTXluDNGg

Modifié par RageGT, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:42 .

[DragonRageGT]

Fandango9641 wrote...

This thread has become less a discussion surrounding the relative merits of implementing level scaling than it has a thread about navigating difficult enemy encounters. Could we please remove 'difficulty' from the equation and move the discussion back to the more salient topic of breaking immersion for the sake of simplifying game design?

Well, not entirely true. This is how the thread started:

lorderon99999 wrote...
...stuff
Genlock using scattr shot..... and simple hurlock using last warrior abilities....
...stuff
The migthy Grey Warden who took down a dragon gets killed by 5 thugs!!!! WOW
Constant challenge is plain stupide!
...more stuff
WE DON'T WANT LEVEL SCALLING!

We? Who's we? Most players have no problem with enemies abilities and don't usually complain if they get killed by 5 thugs. They try and do not die to 5 thugs! Not complaining about difficulty? Really???

EDIT:

here's something about "Immersion" in this very thread!

http://social.biowar...510510/9#511383

Modifié par RageGT, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:48 .

[Rolenka]

Level scaling could be disabled in a mod. Fairly easily, I think.

No, I won't be doing it. Lots of other ideas I have first, for things I might actually use...

[Skellimancer]

@RageGT where is the video for the thug fight? i too went through nightmare with no mage except for that fight, its the only fight where luck>skill.

[XOGHunter246]

Yes it seem some people wish for a game to have easy enemies just so they look powerful.
If you die learn from mistakes and try....try again I myself found DAO too easy and no I don't play on easy mode. The level scaling is fine for this game and when you say WE don't want level scaling you are wrong it's you that does't want it.