444 réponses à ce sujet

[Skellimancer]

XOGHunter246 wrote...

Yes it seem some people wish for a game to have easy enemies just so they look powerful.
If you die learn from mistakes and try....try again I myself found DAO too easy and no I don't play on easy mode. The level scaling is fine for this game and when you say WE don't want level scaling you are wrong it's you that does't want it.
 

it is not about making the game easy mode, a group of scrub bandits should not be the same challenge as a dragon.

[DragonRageGT]

Skellimancer wrote...

@RageGT where is the video for the thug fight? i too went through nightmare with no mage except for that fight, its the only fight where luck>skill.

I have plenty I didn't upload... I might have that... you mean the one the main PC gets locked behind a gate and separated from the party? Or the final one on the whole Chant board job for clearing the run-down, dirty back alley and the other one that I don't remember the name atm?

EDIT: And people saying that a group of scrub bandits ARE the same challenge as a dragon, clearly has some problem with proportions... it's all 8 or 80 for them, if that makes sense in English. I reloaded 10 times vs High Dragon... I reloaded what, perhaps 1 or 2 vs the most difficult scrub banddits encounter... if I reloaded at all... keep things in their real size people!

Modifié par RageGT, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:58 .

[Skellimancer]

RageGT wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

@RageGT where is the video for the thug fight? i too went through nightmare with no mage except for that fight, its the only fight where luck>skill.

I have plenty I didn't upload... I might have that... you mean the one the main PC gets locked behind a gate and separated from the party? Or the final one on the whole Chant board job for clearing the run-down, dirty back alley and the other one that I don't remember the name atm?

The area was called Dark Alley i think. You start in the middle of the area with a bandit boss who says a few lines and you are pretty much surrounded with archers everywhere.

[XOGHunter246]

I know but think the dragon is solo and thugs are grouped with all scattershot so your outnumbered. Number are sometimes more powerful then one big enemy as all enemies scale so like all of the thugs would of all scaled as too one scaled dragon. I bet a dragon with a few drakes would be harder.

[Loc'n'lol]

Dpn't know if you've tried it since 1.02 but it seems to have become a lot easier : every single thug is now critter-level, save for the leaders who are elite. They no longer appear to scattershot either.

[DragonRageGT]

Dark Alley is the second... I'm looking for it...even if I don't have it.. I'm sure it is tubed by someone...

If it is not, I'll make it for you... geez... you only believe in what you see right? And even then you doubt what you see...

It is Run Down Backstreet!

Modifié par RageGT, 29 décembre 2009 - 04:08 .

[Skellimancer]

RageGT wrote...

Dark Alley is the second... I'm looking for it...even if I don't have it.. I'm sure it is tubed by someone...

If it is not, I'll make it for you... geez... you only believe in what you see right? And even then you doubt what you see...

Stop being so serious.

Do i have to use a smiley in every post?

[VeeVito]

Fandango9641 wrote...

VeeVito wrote...

Difficulty became part of the topic when it was cited as a reason why level scaling fails. For example when the whole premise of the thread is that bandits shouldn't be as difficult or "present a constant challenge" as a dragon.

The scaling is not that bad in this game. Other than nightmare, no bandit or generic darkspawn encounter makes you feel all that weak after awhile. One on one they are pretty weak even with scaling. The challenge is in the numbers and whether they get the drop on you.

Nightmare "should" be the exception that makes them unnaturally difficult with scaling.

But, you can't say that scaling is bad because it makes certain generic encounters difficult and then decide to remove difficulty from the discussion. I think "constant challenge" was what the OP mentioned as his problem with it.

And that's fine, all a matter of taste.

Ok you make a good point when you say difficulty must be a factor when discussing level scaling, but I certainly wouldn’t site it as the reason why it "fails". It's my view that enemy (and indeed item) scaling has to be  convincing to work properly and I'm not alone in remaining unconvinced with what I consider to be clunky implementation. I have already conceded that level scaling of a sort is a necessary evil in games　that shares　DA:O's ambition, so I would love to move the conversation to a place where the community could offer Bioware their thoughts and suggestions with regards to areas of development\\\\\\\\improvement. Lets talk about what worked well (the treatment of Trolls for example was spot on) and those that clearly didn’t (many random bandit encounters were just not credible). Perhaps I’ll kick things off when I have a spare half hour.

Perhaps a scaling slider of sorts that allows the player to choose how normal mobs (non-boss/non-elite) scale. Such as +2/+1/0(on level)/-1/-2 etc. (+2 meaning all normals scale to 2 levels above you etc.). For the bosses and elites that tag along with the normals you will take them as Bioware sees fit. Maybe this is already inherent in the difficulty setting, don't know.
This could give everyone whatever they want in terms of that ol' favorite "immersion".
However, not being a game programmer or developer I have no idea how easy or hard this would be. Nor whether something like this would violate the design intentions of the game in Bioware's eyes.

[DragonRageGT]

Skellimancer wrote...

RageGT wrote...

Dark Alley is the second... I'm looking for it...even if I don't have it.. I'm sure it is tubed by someone...

If it is not, I'll make it for you... geez... you only believe in what you see right? And even then you doubt what you see...

Stop being so serious.

Do i have to use a smiley in every post?

Aw well, sorry for that! =)
(You did doubt my NM dragon fight was NM once... thus... I thought you hated me!)

Anyway, I can't find it... my 2handed char had that quest completed at a level 11 savegame so I prolly didn't make a movie of it... most of my movies are for higher level than that and I would not reload a low level for that fight since the scaling might make them wussies and therefore, no point in capturing it.

I'm running 3 different chars/races/classes at the same time now, all doing the same stuff. Funny how each has their own way to handle the same situation, both RP and gameplay-wise! Still low level (6) all of them but I'll make sure to save that quest for the late game and make a nice three-in-one movie with all of them!

[Skellimancer]

RageGT wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

RageGT wrote...

Dark Alley is the second... I'm looking for it...even if I don't have it.. I'm sure it is tubed by someone...

If it is not, I'll make it for you... geez... you only believe in what you see right? And even then you doubt what you see...

Stop being so serious.

Do i have to use a smiley in every post?

Aw well, sorry for that! =)
(You did doubt my NM dragon fight was NM once... thus... I thought you hated me!)

No.  i probably just worded what i meant wrongly, its a talent of mine. I actually enjoyed that video.

[Jax Sparrow]

 I like level scaling.  I like it when monsters are 'limited' by the same abilities/rules as I am... I had the thought that maybe: if someone actually 'paid' for the game they might like it more.  

[sp0lh4us]

Just made a poll about the topic. (I hope this is the first, I couldn't dig out any older.)
Feel free to vote, I would like to see the results, this post has a lot of different opinions.

social.bioware.com/720671/polls/1023/

Modifié par sp0lh4us, 29 décembre 2009 - 05:38 .

[NativityInBlack]

I didn't even noticed the level scaling as you get much more powerfull than the NPC's if you level right.

[XOGHunter246]

I guess the poll will help show how much really do have a problem with it.

[DragonRageGT]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Jax Sparrow wrote...

 I like level scaling.  I like it when monsters are 'limited' by the same abilities/rules as I am... I had the thought that maybe: if someone actually 'paid' for the game they might like it more.  

DA:O was my GOTY, which is not to say there are things that couldnt stand to be improved upon (we have already had a number of patches). Is the game perfect to you?

Definitely! It delivers what it promises with perfection!

You want fixed level'ed enemies? Try Risen and the Gothics. One of the Best Ever RPG's series and Risen just keep it up with perfection to what it proposes to be. A wild boar will kill you so fast that you'll regret starting the game in Hard diff, but after you trainned  and gained levels, STR, skills, magic... then they will be real easy.

I ain't saying that no-scaling games are bad. On the contraire, some are awesome and I just named a couple of them. But to claim that scaling in Dragon Age is "breaking immersion" is tripping!

Absorbing involvement, which is the best definition of "immersion" for a video game, has nothing to do with scaling. So, you believe your hero should be unbeatable at a certain point? No thugs should be able to gang bang you? That thought gets lots of real strong, black belt master jiu-jitsu fighters type, killed in the streets when they react to some lousy thugs robbing them.

It is real.. the brazilian guy who just got killed lived in the US and taught Mike Tyson some jiu-jitsu. Suspension of disbelief? Tell him about it when you meet him in the after-life!

And it is indeed weird that most threads like this one are usually started and then supported by people with unregistered copies, which is such a trivial thing for any BioWare usual legit player...

I do hope that BW will change nothing about it and use their time provide more content, xpack, addons, instead! Once you guys hating scaling have enough gameplay time to overcome those few "annoying" encounters very easily in NM difficulty, I really doubt they will be such big issue, unless of course you still think that no thugh will kill you because you're a black belt master jiu-jitsu fighter!

EDIT: You might try to advertise the poll in its own thread, sp0lh4us , as lots of people don't enter one this long and rarely read what's posted before their own post.

Modifié par RageGT, 29 décembre 2009 - 06:23 .

[Deception_2112]

RageGT wrote...
No bunch of anything is as hard as the biatch Dragon or JaxFang (names have been changed to protect the.. spoiler). Torias may have said that but it doesn't make it true either, not in that proportion he may have suggested. Yes, Denerim thieves quest require attention during the fights but not nearly all the management a major boss may require and honestly... compare the amount of reloads there with that you may need vs a Dragon... if you do have to reload to the bandits and perhaps to the Dragon too.

Well JaxFang didn't resist my mana clash and took 2k damage, so that really was kind of amusing but damn it felt good. The Dragon fight was easier to solo as an Arcane Warrior than a bunch of bandits who kept stunning you tbh. On my first playthrough though i'll admit i had to reload a fair bit more against the Dragon and the Revenants in the Forest.

RageGT wrote..Now, Ser Cauthrien is the hardest single NPC in the game ONLY at the first meeting with her and only because she's supposed to win the fight. Still, we can beat her good and I didn't even needed a reload in my last two runs. At the second meeting with her, assuming you let them take you after beating her or just surrendered, she's a wuss. A regular fighter that Branka could tear down in a split second!

Well it's still amusing to me tbh...I didn't even need to reload against the Archdemon on my first playthrough, he really was a poor boss IMO, it doesn't do BioWare much credit that their final boss was easier than an optional boss who's also a human..

RageGT wrote..Lots of people just kill them all right there at the first meeting and lose one of the funniest acts in the whole game! Since it might take us around 20 replays to watch them all, I mounted a collection with them and they're in the Epilogue and in the Prison Break E.E., movies of my Best Party (Banter) series which lots of people enjoyed and only then decided they had to try that in a future run. It is hilarious and if you always kill that overpowered b**** in the first meeting, give it a try!

Caurtherien? I kill her everytime simply because i cannot stand surrending to an arrogrant b!tch like her . 

RageGT wrote..Clearly, the complaint about scaling here is mostly from people who had bad experience with Oblivion scaling, like dying to a wolf or rat or montain lion at level 15, for instance. But even there a good built char can overcome that and past level 20 game gets rather boring since nothing is really challenging... with 2 chars at 54 and over 60 oblivion gates closed with each one, I'm damn sure of what I'm talking about. Scaling in Oblivion was never a problem to me anyway, I didn't mind all bandits having top gear as it only meant top money for my char!

My problem with Oblivion scaling really wasn't me dying to anything, rather it was me spending ages to get that Daedric Armor and all of a sudden your common bandit would have an armor that was usually never seen in Cyrodiil. Now that really is immersion breaking.

RageGT wrote..If a particular fight seems too hard in DA:O, change your approach to it, as many times as it takes until you find an optimum solution. It's not healthy to keep banging the head against the wall hoping you can break the wall. It's far more likely you'll just crack your skull and it's called... insanity! Humans know nothing at birth... but humans are the only ones who can learn from their mistakes. (perhaps elves and dwarves too, why not!)

Which is why the OP is rather, well ignorant, there are many ways to break this game. Arcane Warrior is proof of this, i dont think the game was ever made to be soloed on Nightmare.

[Deception_2112]

Torias wrote...
So your problem is that the in game fiction didn't match up to the gameplay mechanics?

That's a valid point, for sure.

Would you have been happy if the "name" of the enemy was scaled as well?

So instead of being killed by a huge pack of bandits, you're instead getting killed by a huge pack of "elite awesome bandits"... would that be better?

Tbh it was a minor qualm, but if those bandits were more in the boss type mob it'd be a bit more believable, ie named or atleast at the elite boss rank. No fight should be as easy as the OP wants, but it probably would've felt better that killing the High Dragon was a fair bit harder than a bunch of high level bandits

Level scaling is neccesary, and i agree with it atleast for DAO, otherwise by the time i'm level 25 i'll be a walking god (This happened in Morrowind). 

[Jean Lazarus Guyzai]

The concept of tales and deed for your character wise in being the chosen one, able to be defeated by a group of thugs who has been as great as how you've been trying to save the world just does not fit in well when you are able to defeat a mighty dragon which raises armies, raze lands and beyond. The role you're playing as the savior of the world who is facing a group of thugs as powerful as the savior (slightly less awesome than the evil and bad dragon lulz) just seem a bit funny like how superman soils underwear because of shiny green crystals that glows :|



However in the context of game play amidst the game story, a dynamic environment/system/thought of play must be constantly of challenge to keep the gaming atmosphere alive. Yes while you are the hero of Ferelden shouldn't mean you could just left click a thug to death and then to the other thugs who happen to tag along or just click harder if they refuse to beg for their death since you're the hero D: You cant get an extra Queen or star with two turns just because you won the World Chess Championship . Kasporov or Dude A, you still have 16 pieces. Yes! your tactics is your build. Play combination of pieces or be a legend by using only a pawn and queen (and still beat the current world chess champion)



That's right! No surprises here. Like all tactical stuff, the dynamics of the gameplay in DAO should remain as it is , just like how its meant to be percieved and played as part of the total experience of DAO. A great story with dynamic gameplay in one package. Not to be played for the story only , not to be played for the battles only.



That is how DAO captures the hearts of the audience. So like really , if chess/DAO is not your type of pie, do not take it as intended by the chefs of Bioware as it is meant to be , then play God or something or have kimchi.

[Sturroc]

The level scaling is why I stopped playing, and why I won't buy any extra content.

[Jean Lazarus Guyzai]

That is uh noted. You forgot your backpack adventurer?

[sp0lh4us]

RageGT wrote...

Once you guys hating scaling have enough gameplay time to overcome those few "annoying" encounters very easily in NM difficulty, I really doubt they will be such big issue, unless of course you still think that no thugh will kill you because you're a black belt master jiu-jitsu fighter!

For some reason I think you really don't get the point here...
I'm playing NM and I NEVER had any problems defeating any enemies. Had to press F9 here and there.
I have no problem with the scaling combat-wise. It's just the immersion, and it seems you completely
misunderstood the meaning of that word in RPGs. Being a very-old-timer RP'er I think thugs in the woods
or on a road waiting to rob some easy prey are certainly not some 20th century organized crime members with
top-of-the-line prototype weaponry. They are just as they are: thugs in cheap leather armor, rusty swords,
bad teeth and short temper.
And after killing a few otherwordly abominations and demons, I'd like to cut thru these thugs like a knife cuts
thru butter. I told this before: I don't want to remove scaling. I don't need easy mode made to be more easy.
I'm playing on NM anyway. All I want is a more fashioned scaling where a random encounter with thugs end up
me being a f****g great hero butchering them in seconds and hammmering the pieces into something slimy.
That doesn't mean EVERY random encounter should be 'yet another thug hammering'. But if the game rolled the dice and it happens to be thugs, then let me have my fun.

Modifié par sp0lh4us, 29 décembre 2009 - 07:05 .

[DJ0000]

Personally, I think scaling is good so the game doesn't get too easy e.g. i loved Oblivion but it did get really easy after level 20, but it doesn't make sense that sometimes a pack of wolves is really hard to kill but the a boss demon takes almost no effort.



P.s we aren't all pirates, some of us just too lazy to walk the 10 feet to where the game box is to register it. LOL

[DragonRageGT]

Hats off to you, Jean Lazarus, from a "pegged gushing fanboy"!

[Kimberly Shaw]

So, you believe your hero should be unbeatable at a certain point? No thugs should be able to gang bang you?

I don't think the OP is saying this at all, nor are any of us "anti-scaling" people. Everyone wants the game to be challenging, but it IS immersion breaking when the poor thugs are suddenly supermen. The thugs, if randomly there, shouldn't level up so massively; they should be a walk in the park because yes, I can take down a dragon and a tower full of demons. If the scaling is to be there, replace the thugs with blood mages or abominations or dark spawn elites. Not super-thugs, because it doesn't really make any sense that they would be so good and still be thugs. To me.



If you do have thugs, then okay, I will mow them down and teach them to pick a fight with the Grey Warden who can solo the Arch Demon.

[Jean Lazarus Guyzai]

That is quite scary Lady Kimberly Shaw



Its time to propose Thugs or even Mabari breed encounters to scale accordingly. Like level one thugs to be like Level 1 Thugs and Level seventeen Thugs to be Level 17 Thugs so its not gonna be immersion breaking since its a Level 17 Thug. Hey , could have stolen stuff since 6. Crepe happens in backalleys.



Anyways a Happy Mabari would be level one , a Not so happy mabari level 2 , a