444 réponses à ce sujet

[Sheogorath555]

I am all for a little level scaling, as long as it is not like oblivion's. No scaling can cause problems like on gothic 3, where you had to be the right level at the right time for the game to be fun.

[F-C]

you are still arguing days later because you want a lvl 20 thug to look a little different and have a name like 'elite thug' just so you feel a little better about level scaling.



im sure you will take this as an insult, but it is meant sincerely... get a life.

[Sidney]

F-C wrote...

you are still arguing days later because you want a lvl 20 thug to look a little different and have a name like 'elite thug' just so you feel a little better about level scaling.

im sure you will take this as an insult, but it is meant sincerely... get a life.

Days later and you, and a few others, still can't understand the nature of the argument. You make up bad arguments and then present really poor counters to even those lame arguments.

I'm sure you will take this as an insult, but it is meant sincerely... get better reading comprehension..

[ladydesire]

Sidney wrote...

F-C wrote...

you are still arguing days later because you want a lvl 20 thug to look a little different and have a name like 'elite thug' just so you feel a little better about level scaling.

im sure you will take this as an insult, but it is meant sincerely... get a life.

Days later and you, and a few others, still can't understand the nature of the argument. You make up bad arguments and then present really poor counters to even those lame arguments.

I'm sure you will take this as an insult, but it is meant sincerely... get better reading comprehension..

I do recall someone asking if anyone has encountered this since the 1.02 patch (meaning the thugs) but I don't recall seeing a response on that yet, so maybe Bioware already fixed the complaint.

[Khumak]

I think they got the level scaling mostly right in Dragon Age. I tend to like it when there are a mix of scaled encounters as well as "gated" encounters that are either hard or impossible if you're not high enough. I'd prefer it if there were some in game warnings about which areas should be too hard rather than having to rely on trial and error and just reload if you can't pass one of the "gate" encounters.



One of the things I think they got wrong in Dragon Age is the loot system. Most encounters give completely worthless loot and most of the best items are all store bought. I don't mind some powerful storebought items but NONE of the best items should be storebought. By the same token, a lot of the freebie promo items are WAY overpowered. None of them should be remotely close to endgame caliber unless it's something that's added to the loot table of an end game encounter rather than just added to your inventory upon character creation.

[Taleroth]

lorderon99999 wrote...


Look at the BG series....we had MUCH MORE freedom than DA:O and it had NO LEVEL SCALLING

Yes, it did.  Virtually the same scaling you see in DA:O, in fact.

Modifié par Taleroth, 31 décembre 2009 - 01:03 .

[Dieover]

Khumak wrote...

I think they got the level scaling mostly right in Dragon Age. I tend to like it when there are a mix of scaled encounters as well as "gated" encounters that are either hard or impossible if you're not high enough. I'd prefer it if there were some in game warnings about which areas should be too hard rather than having to rely on trial and error and just reload if you can't pass one of the "gate" encounters.

One of the things I think they got wrong in Dragon Age is the loot system. Most encounters give completely worthless loot and most of the best items are all store bought. I don't mind some powerful storebought items but NONE of the best items should be storebought. By the same token, a lot of the freebie promo items are WAY overpowered. None of them should be remotely close to endgame caliber unless it's something that's added to the loot table of an end game encounter rather than just added to your inventory upon character creation.

YES! very good point.

The first toughest encounter i ever face was the Alley one. I able to clear all of it but non of the loot was rewarding for all the struggle and hard work i has to go through. It would be nice to have a nice big reward at the end, but ah nothing beat a good mod that help you fix that problem tehe.

[Sidney]

Khumak wrote...
One of the things I think they got wrong in Dragon Age is the loot system. Most encounters give completely worthless loot and most of the best items are all store bought. I don't mind some powerful storebought items but NONE of the best items should be storebought. By the same token, a lot of the freebie promo items are WAY overpowered. None of them should be remotely close to endgame caliber unless it's something that's added to the loot table of an end game encounter rather than just added to your inventory upon character creation.

There are a few uber-items (a belt, dagger, an axe and ring specifically) but the best weapons are all found in the wild - or at least the building materials , the best armor - short of the blood dragon - is found in the wild. REally merchants don't have a ton of top-end stuff for most characters.

The average grunt doesn't drop great stuff but for stuff like Diligence, Effort, Juggernaut, Legion, Ancient Elven are all found outside vendors. The Drakescale is made by a vendor but you must find the materials in a non-easy way. Starfang is cheap and easy but does require you to complete a quest to build, the Green Blade, the Summer Sword, Topsiders, Ysarism, ForgeMasters Hammer, Faith's Edge are similarly found outside of merchants.

[Paromlin]

I agree with you, topic starter. I hope they'll somehow realise, for the next expansion/game, how bad level scaling is and get rid of it.

[specter7237]

I don't think the 10 thugs being stronger than a dragon is the problem.  I mean your poorly designed 4man group of sh*t could bring it down so why can't they when they have over twice your numbers.  The problem is the dragon was simply not hard enough; none of the game's bosses are.  In my last playthrough, basically everything that wasn't a dragon was dead in seconds and the dragons themselves posed little threat.  I agree the game lacks a certain feeling of danger but our reasonings are at odds.  For me, scaling or no, every encounter feels too weak.  I personally like to fantasize about them being much larger.  If the game had a few more fights with 20, even 30 high level enemies with more mages, it would add some much needed challenge after having completed the game twice.

[Tin Soldier]

Paromlin wrote...

I agree with you, topic starter. I hope they'll somehow realise, for the next expansion/game, how bad level scaling is and get rid of it.

Please explain why you think location scaling is superior.

[fchopin]

ladydesire wrote...

Sidney wrote...

F-C wrote...

you are still arguing days later because you want a lvl 20 thug to look a little different and have a name like 'elite thug' just so you feel a little better about level scaling.

im sure you will take this as an insult, but it is meant sincerely... get a life.

Days later and you, and a few others, still can't understand the nature of the argument. You make up bad arguments and then present really poor counters to even those lame arguments.

I'm sure you will take this as an insult, but it is meant sincerely... get better reading comprehension..

I do recall someone asking if anyone has encountered this since the 1.02 patch (meaning the thugs) but I don't recall seeing a response on that yet, so maybe Bioware already fixed the complaint.

With 1.02 the balance of the game is better, not perfect as it still needs a little more touching up in my opinion.
I don’t think the problem is with level scaling but with balance, from level 7 or 8 there was a big jump in difficulty depending on where you go first.
 
The first 7 levels were very balanced if not a little easy and then there was a big jump in difficulty which if not prepared could cause problems so with version 1.02 the game is better balanced.

[Sidney]

fchopin wrote...

With 1.02 the balance of the game is better, not perfect as it still needs a little more touching up in my opinion.
I don’t think the problem is with level scaling but with balance, from level 7 or 8 there was a big jump in difficulty depending on where you go first.
 
The first 7 levels were very balanced if not a little easy and then there was a big jump in difficulty which if not prepared could cause problems so with version 1.02 the game is better balanced.

...and keep in mind the console players aren't on 1.02, or any patch although I understand we were sort of pre-patched on some things , so I don't know if the scaling is done differently on the PC and XBOX and/or PS3 versions.

[Pugnate]

I just don't get these complaints about the game's difficulty. I am finding the game too easy at higher levels.

[lorderon99999]

reepneep wrote...

God, does no one have any reading comprehension skills? The OP is complaining about the logical problem of a few random street thugs being as great a threat to the party as a four story tall firebreathing lizard. The only thing you can say to this is 'Its a game, of course it's supposed to get harder as you go along'. That just metagaming logic, and the OP wishes this weren't the case. He's asking if it really make sense that our group of battle-hardened PCs is seriously challenged by a a group of glorified cutpurses. It doesn't unless you're subscribing to the theory that because it's a game, every opponent should be formidable. It makes just as much sense as every bandit in Tamriel suddenly finding sets of Daedric armor because the PC has reached the proper level.

Its like expecting a squad of commandos who spent the last ten years fighting in guerilla warfare in various third world hellholes to be seriously challenged by a group of gangbangers with glocks in south LA.

OP doesn't dislike level scaling because it makes the game too hard (he said he plays on nightmare without a healing mage for chrissake), he dislikes it because of the logical problems it creates.

These inconsistancies do damage the believability of the world. I happen to think it's worth it to make every fight entertainingly difficult, but its still a problem.

Seems at least someone understands me

[lorderon99999]

Tirigon wrote...

The one thing I dont understand is why you keep complaining about DAO while, at the same time, repeating that´s a great game and very funny and of course there is no problem with the difficulty, and in short its great, but it sucks...
Seems a little confused, doesnt it?

If I dislike levl scalling really bad...it don't make me hate the good story and characters

[lorderon99999]

Sylixe wrote...

You lost me at the point you thought the game was hard. Maybe learn some tactics or at the very least setup your party tactics so they can show you how to win. It's not like you can't set them and watch the game like it's a movie and win everytime.

I lost you at something I never said?

Not because I say 10 bandits using scattershot is stupide I find it hard...

I know a good tactic actually for that one....I use my tank PC to lure all of them in a doorway where Morrigan is waiting with Cone of Cold...that it

Now stop saying I complain about diff plz

[lorderon99999]

NotMyName13 wrote...

Jesus, with the exception of 2 or 3 people, most of you miss the OP's point completed(I'm looking at you especially Rage).

THE OP DOES NOT THINK DIFFICULTY IS THE PROBLEM.

THE LEVEL SCALING IMPLEMENTATION WITH REGARDS TO REGULAR MOB IS.

AT A CERTAIN LEVEL, AN ENCOUNTER WITH NORMAL WHITE MOBS(THUGS/GENLOCKS) SHOULD NOT BE AS DIFFICULT AS A LEGENDARY HIGH DRAGON.

--->PROBLEM: YOU ARE LEVEL 18 AND A GROUP OF NORMAL THUG/GENLOCK ETC. POSES THE SAME CHALLENGE AS A LEGENDARY HIGH DRAGON.

--->POSSIBLE SOLUTION: AT CERTAIN UPPER LEVELS(5-10, 10-15...) CHANGE THE MOBS (THUG/GENLOCK ETC) TO MORE ELITE MOBS(ELITE ASSASSINS/SUPER MUTANT GENLOCKS ETC) THAT WAY YOU STILL GET THE CHALLENGE BUT KNOW THAT YOUR STRUGGLE WAS DUE TO THE EPICNESS OF THE MOB, NOT SOME RABBLE THAT YOU COULD HAVE FACED AT LEVEL 8.

NOT EASIER, BUT COULD BE AS EASY AS RENAMING THE MOBS AT HIGHER LEVELS. UNDERSTAND?

Does this shed any light? Or you all just going to persist to "lol at OP its easy enough as it is", "OP learn 2 play" BS.

Wondrful!

But I said earlier....the best solution is ScaleEncounter ..... and make us fight a lot of genlock in bginning and Hurlock at the end..

[lorderon99999]

RageGT wrote...

Farrrongoth wrote...

This is RageGT last post
Lol the battle I posted earlier was my first attempt at Nightmare I'd played normal before then

wat?

NotMyName13 wrote...

Jesus, with the exception of 2 or 3 people, most of you miss the OP's point completed(I'm looking at you especially Rage).

THE OP DOES NOT THINK DIFFICULTY IS THE PROBLEM.

THE LEVEL SCALING IMPLEMENTATION WITH REGARDS TO REGULAR MOB IS.

AT A CERTAIN LEVEL, AN ENCOUNTER WITH NORMAL WHITE MOBS(THUGS/GENLOCKS) SHOULD NOT BE AS DIFFICULT AS A LEGENDARY HIGH DRAGON.

--->PROBLEM: YOU ARE LEVEL 18 AND A GROUP OF NORMAL THUG/GENLOCK ETC. POSES THE SAME CHALLENGE AS A LEGENDARY HIGH DRAGON.

--->POSSIBLE SOLUTION: AT CERTAIN UPPER LEVELS(5-10, 10-15...) CHANGE THE MOBS (THUG/GENLOCK ETC) TO MORE ELITE MOBS(ELITE ASSASSINS/SUPER MUTANT GENLOCKS ETC) THAT WAY YOU STILL GET THE CHALLENGE BUT KNOW THAT YOUR STRUGGLE WAS DUE TO THE EPICNESS OF THE MOB, NOT SOME RABBLE THAT YOU COULD HAVE FACED AT LEVEL 8.

NOT EASIER, BUT COULD BE AS EASY AS RENAMING THE MOBS AT HIGHER LEVELS. UNDERSTAND?

Does this shed any light? Or you all just going to persist to "lol at OP its easy enough as it is", "OP learn 2 play" BS.

LOL... I love this...  "The op does not think the difficulty is the problem"...  "but an encounter with "white" mobs should not be AS DIFFICULT AS a legendary High Dragon".... do you realize the contradiction or is it just me?

In any case, no encounter with no mobs are as difficult as a major boss battle... if someone thinks so it is clearly to me that one doesn't know how to play... want some visual on that? here... it is all Nightmare... watch them both and see it they are at the same difficulty... Note that they were both done at the same level!

Dragon Battle


A few randon encounters with lots of mobs...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zngzB5sAtU

There are more both uploaded and some I haven't uploaded... I have the bandits in Denerim with that lvl 20 party... not sure if uploaded or not... but believe me... there are no encounter, be it with bandits, wolves, darkspawn, mercenaries, whatever, that comes even close to the challenge of a major boss...   unless you are displicent and take it for granted that you should win easily... it is a matter of L2P indeed... sorry.

I don't care what video you show...I know (playing on Nightmare) that a one mod boss is SUPER EASY compard to lots of white mods..

WHen I say something is more DIFFICULT it does not man by any sens that I find it hard...it is more challenging but not more diff....you have no rading skills indeed

[lorderon99999]

RageGT wrote...

@Farrrongoth - Thanks! I really didn't understand a thing from that post. 'Tis not my language! =)

@NotMyName13 - Whatever man. All I'm saying is no matter what level, no matter what we face, after we acquired some skill with the game, nothing can kill us. Sure, I have some reloads on major battles but other than that no. And after my first char who finished with 20 injuries... all my runs are Zero Injuries, all in Nightmare... so yeah, I'm Kind of a Big Deal!

@Sidney - After I learned how to set tactics efficiently, I don't have to micromanage that much anymore. It works very well for me now. And no, I'm no Ubber player... just a regular one who has lots of time to play... entering 500 hrs into it soon.

You're irght on one point...nothing can kill me....still...why should every whit in the game have the same abilities as my lvl 20 PC...give them more hitpoints and dmg at the very last but not the same abilities god damit

[lorderon99999]

Deception_2112 wrote...

Lol why are you guys calling the OP a pirate? If he really did pirate the game then why the hell should he complain, he didn't pay a cent for the game...

Anyway if you think level scaling is bad in this game, why don't you go try Oblivion OP, i don't see anything wrong with it, and i've soloed mobs/dragons and etc as an Arcane Warior

I buyed my game thank you...as for you're question go trough the posts

[lorderon99999]

Maviarab wrote...

Constant challenge is plain stupide!

That sums it up. Go back to WoW kid!

I nevr played WoW...if you 2 took the time to read the posts....and go play BG and you will see that non-constant challenge...it freaking great!

It not praised as the best RPG for nothing! (except Planescape)

[lorderon99999]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Spitz6860 wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Spitz6860 wrote...

well, i think it's pretty obvious why they used level scaling in this game. after a certain point of the game you are advised to go to many different places on your world map so level scaling allows you to go to any of them in any order. from a game design point of view you don't want any of those areas or chapters, which ever you prefer to call them, to be too easy or too hard, especially for a tactical RPG. for example you don't want the mobs in dwarf city to be locked at lvl20ish, so if you choose to go there first, there is no way you can complete your objective there. so either they put in level scaling or make you go to those places in a linear order.

All of which we know, the question is 'can the developers manage the process in a way that doesn’t lay the game mechanics bare quite so noticeably'?

you mean to take out level scaling and allow some degree of freedom at the same time? i don't know, that's pretty much saying your character progression needs to be meaningless. the most common method is to reskin&rename creatures, like spider<poisonous spider<black widow etc, but then i don't think that works on thugs that the OP was talking about lol

Thanks for responding Spitz6860, much appreciated. I'll admit that the debate here (excellent thread BTW) has persuaded me that a degree of level scaling is a necessary evil if the gamer is to be granted a certain level of freedom, so I’ll continue to make the case for a smarter, more aesthetically sensible approach to the ‘problems’ outlined by the OP. I'm sure the good people at Bioware could tighten things up in this regard and give fusspots like me less ammunition to vent if they were so inclined, so I’ll invite people on both sides of the debate to offer up their thoughts with regards to possible scaling improvements for future releases.

I get you're point....but how can you explain that I had a great sens of freedom (more than DA:O actually) in BG2 when it had almost no scalling at all?

Renaming the mods seems like a fair idea.....but I like more encounter scalling...

What I think would be a good Idea is lets say that th Brasillian Forest are meant to be do first....you do them (if you have the courage you can go in harder places first)...with no scalling...and if they absolutely need scalling everywhere put at leat fixed abilities scale...that means no thug using scattershot...

but the last encounter is meant to be diff....so they scale that but not the reward because you worked for the challenge!...and lets say there are some places in the forest you can't do because of the diff (encountr scale) and you can't get this particular set of armor and you would have to come back when you are level 15...but if you would to be succesfull at a low level then a good reward for you!

This would give a very cool feeling of progression to the game and the sens of danger would be there...and items would'nt ned to be scalled

What do you think?

[lorderon99999]

Fandango9641 wrote...

This thread has become less a discussion surrounding the relative merits of implementing level scaling than it has a thread about navigating difficult enemy encounters. Could we please remove 'difficulty' from the equation and move the discussion back to the more salient topic of breaking immersion for the sake of simplifying game design?

I am trying to do that for lik 12 pages lol....but it seems people ar so used to diff topic here on the forums that they think it another one

lol...you cant' blame them actually