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Level Scalling is killing the game for me....


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#401
lorderon99999

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stillnotking wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

This thread has become less a discussion surrounding the relative merits of implementing level scaling than it has a thread about navigating difficult enemy encounters. Could we please remove 'difficulty' from the equation and move the discussion back to the more salient topic of breaking immersion for the sake of simplifying game design?


I don't see the problem here.  I guess they could have put in some kind of ad hoc explanation for the scaling, but I certainly can't think of one that would really be satisfying.  To me it's just part of suspension of disbelief, like... oh, say, the fact that it's supposedly INCREDIBLY URGENT to stop the Blight as soon as possible, and yet you have unlimited time to wander all over the country as many times as you feel like.  Or pausing the game to issue orders in a fight.  Or the fact that only one retarded kid in the entire game is capable of inserting a rune into a weapon socket.

Edit: I'd also add that what really breaks immersion for me is the opposite of scaling.  Let's say you're a warrior.  Is it really realistic that a group of bandits would pose absolutely no threat to you at level 20?  I actually don't like games where my character eventually becomes Superman, totally immune to all but the strongest mobs.  That really makes me feel like I am playing a game rather than experiencing a story.  Like I said before, I think this is a familiarity issue.  The "worthless-peon-to-invincible-juggernaut" leveling continuum that is standard for the genre is the legacy of technical limitations that don't necessarily apply any more.


You nd to play BG...hard to explain it...but most immersif game ever with no scalling...go play it and feel the sens of danger I am talking about

#402
lorderon99999

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RageGT wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

RageGT wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

TL;DR version: Make sure you have a Mage as thats the only "tactical" decision you need to make in this game.

I agree with the OP and i have beat the whole game on nightmare. the scaling is retarded, common thugs should not be epic fighters/archers/mages otherwise they would own the city in a few days.

Also you make the last battles of the game so easy that you one shot mobs but Thugs are elite ownage machines? :lol:



Try not having a Mage at all in NM and those bandits are still easy pray for a well build and developed lvl18+ party, as long as you know what and how to do it.




By all means, tell us how you did it.




I don't tell... I show... if you take the time to watch... and don't go doubting me again it is NM because it is fraking NM! Not my fault I am a regular powerbuilder, a powergamer and I love RP powerful characters!


Dragon Battle (this one you've seen already, Skellie)


A few randon encounters with lots of mobs, some unique encounters and bosses! SPOILER ALERT)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zngzB5sAtU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSfuu1rrZBw  (I'd say the song here fits this whole thread!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D55kiwUZB0A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtFVzy827WQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc7uu7FMbys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5XhEV8nG0Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cYbZV9OgYE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrJVdNOYzIc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C9ZHBCcags

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-XqkPUPfQQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuedcCfsjsc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTs7cvP0SY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoLTXluDNGg


Lol are you blind you can't even see that he his using the rigged DLC stuffe? And he must have all of the high prices stuffe in the store....and he must also be a no life to get all that stuffe...bcause my first run through was 48H (yes I am finish since I started Topic) explored 89% of the map, opened every freaking chest and barrels and I still did not have th money to buy more than 4 uber pricd items ....because I was always buying skills tome, plans and ingrediant for herb and poison

#403
lorderon99999

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RageGT wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

This thread has become less a discussion surrounding the relative merits of implementing level scaling than it has a thread about navigating difficult enemy encounters. Could we please remove 'difficulty' from the equation and move the discussion back to the more salient topic of breaking immersion for the sake of simplifying game design?


Well, not entirely true. This is how the thread started:

lorderon99999 wrote...
...stuff
Genlock using scattr shot..... and simple hurlock using last warrior abilities....
...stuff
The migthy Grey Warden who took down a dragon gets killed by 5 thugs!!!! WOW
Constant challenge is plain stupide!
...more stuff
WE DON'T WANT LEVEL SCALLING!


We? Who's we? Most players have no problem with enemies abilities and don't usually complain if they get killed by 5 thugs. They try and do not die to 5 thugs! Not complaining about difficulty? Really???

EDIT:

here's something about "Immersion" in this very thread!

http://social.biowar...510510/9#511383






What you can't seem to understand RAGE is that, and you would understand if you read every posts, that when I say that I am saying that does 5 thugs, at least for me, and even if I don't find it hard...pose the same amount of challenge as a High Dragon....why? Because they all use last level abilities like scattershot...again I am not complaining about diff...just finished the game on nightmare...first run ever BTW...and got wiped 5 times...still think I find the game hard?

#404
lorderon99999

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Sylixe wrote...

So it's gone to 15 pages and nobody yet understands why the scaling is the way it is? The answer lies in the younger generation of gamers that REQUIRE their cheat codes and everything handed to them without any effort. The MMO genre is the best example of what happened to challenging gaming. Unless the game is easy to win with a drooling monkey it will not sell the units the corporate guys have it targeted for.

However the developers have provided the community with the tools to make the game more challenging if they want. This to me is a total scam but at least it's possible to make the game a lot harder than it is with enough time.

The difficulty scaling in games has been slipping for many years now and doesn't appear to have any takers in changing that philosophy. I have been setting newly released games on the hardest setting for the past few years. The end result is utter disappointment at what a developer calls "Nightmare" or "Hard".

If you want to correct the scaling issue you are going to have to break the game up into chapters so that anything you previously met can be replaced with something new and more powerful. It keeps the integrity of the game while at the same time making it believable. However many players don't really like that option as it makes it appear you have less freedom in game. The alternative is making areas inaccesible until you reach a certain level or complete a certain part of the storyline. Again though people see less freedom in that option and reject it.


I have to agree on on point with you even if this was not really the debate...

Imagine if Bioware came out with a new game exactly like BG...what do you think would happen?

The new generation (does 20 makes me in them?) would reject it...because they are used to games like ME (which is pretty good...except guess what?...yup the scalling :)...and the sides qusts)....or incredibly stupide easy games like Assasin creed 1 and 2....does games (even if graphics are top and gameplay is good) are a total joke!

I will always remeber Jade (lead in the design of the first assasin creed) saying 'the game is hard...you can't actually take more than 1-2 guards at a time and more than 4 hits! Such lies!....an assasin game turned into a action game because of the market

Modifié par lorderon99999, 31 décembre 2009 - 07:30 .


#405
Viglin

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lorderon99999 wrote...

Sylixe wrote...

So it's gone to 15 pages and nobody yet understands why the scaling is the way it is? The answer lies in the younger generation of gamers that REQUIRE their cheat codes and everything handed to them without any effort. The MMO genre is the best example of what happened to challenging gaming. Unless the game is easy to win with a drooling monkey it will not sell the units the corporate guys have it targeted for.

However the developers have provided the community with the tools to make the game more challenging if they want. This to me is a total scam but at least it's possible to make the game a lot harder than it is with enough time.

The difficulty scaling in games has been slipping for many years now and doesn't appear to have any takers in changing that philosophy. I have been setting newly released games on the hardest setting for the past few years. The end result is utter disappointment at what a developer calls "Nightmare" or "Hard".

If you want to correct the scaling issue you are going to have to break the game up into chapters so that anything you previously met can be replaced with something new and more powerful. It keeps the integrity of the game while at the same time making it believable. However many players don't really like that option as it makes it appear you have less freedom in game. The alternative is making areas inaccesible until you reach a certain level or complete a certain part of the storyline. Again though people see less freedom in that option and reject it.


I could've said better!

Imagine if Bioware came out with a new game exactly like BG...what do you think would happen?

The new generation (does 20 makes me in them?) would reject it...because they are used to games like ME (which is pretty good...except guess what?...yup the scalling :)...and the sides qusts)....or incredibly stupide easy games like Assasin creed 1 and 2....does games (even if graphics are top and gameplay is good) are a total joke!

I will always remeber Jade (lead in the design of the first assasin creed) saying 'the game is hard...you can't actually take more than 1-2 guards at a time and more than 4 hits! Such lies!....an assasin game turned into a action game because of the market


Yes, yes it does.

Asassins Creed 2 is "incredibly stupid easy"???...

You want a real hard rpg game....go back to Pools of Radiance...or stop living in the past people.

#406
lorderon99999

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Eisberg1977 wrote...

Tin Soldier wrote...


The anti level scaling folks believe that having a level 6 thug in Lowbieville and having a level 20 thug in High City is immersion destroying.
They believe that having a level6 thug that only exists in Lowbieville and having a level 20 elite thug that only exists in High City is immersive.
I don't agree.


You forgot one.  They don't like having constant challege either.  They want to have easy mode fights through out the game, mixed in with challenging fights, to feel like they are getting powerful, not more resourceful.


You know what...I just give up...there is two possibilities...or you really did not get what we are saying all these posts or you are plain stupide....

I know level scalling is bad...and I think that the reasons the most popular mods in games like Oblivion (OOO, Freancesco and more) are anti-level scalling mods is not just a random THING

I am out of here....and I will wait for a mods than changes this somehow...

#407
VanDraegon

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lorderon99999 wrote...

Lol are you blind you can't even see that he his using the rigged DLC stuffe? And he must have all of the high prices stuffe in the store....and he must also be a no life to get all that stuffe...bcause my first run through was 48H (yes I am finish since I started Topic) explored 89% of the map, opened every freaking chest and barrels and I still did not have th money to buy more than 4 uber pricd items ....because I was always buying skills tome, plans and ingrediant for herb and poison



If you finished it in 48 hours you obviously skipped a lot of content. No wonder you didnt have any money. Only have yourself to blame for that.

The DLC items are not rigged, they are there to be used. You not liking them doesnt mean they are a cheat.

Now you resort to telling people they have no life and are stupid. Seems like someone lost his argument.

Modifié par VanDraegon, 31 décembre 2009 - 07:40 .


#408
lorderon99999

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Viglin wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

Sylixe wrote...

So it's gone to 15 pages and nobody yet understands why the scaling is the way it is? The answer lies in the younger generation of gamers that REQUIRE their cheat codes and everything handed to them without any effort. The MMO genre is the best example of what happened to challenging gaming. Unless the game is easy to win with a drooling monkey it will not sell the units the corporate guys have it targeted for.

However the developers have provided the community with the tools to make the game more challenging if they want. This to me is a total scam but at least it's possible to make the game a lot harder than it is with enough time.

The difficulty scaling in games has been slipping for many years now and doesn't appear to have any takers in changing that philosophy. I have been setting newly released games on the hardest setting for the past few years. The end result is utter disappointment at what a developer calls "Nightmare" or "Hard".

If you want to correct the scaling issue you are going to have to break the game up into chapters so that anything you previously met can be replaced with something new and more powerful. It keeps the integrity of the game while at the same time making it believable. However many players don't really like that option as it makes it appear you have less freedom in game. The alternative is making areas inaccesible until you reach a certain level or complete a certain part of the storyline. Again though people see less freedom in that option and reject it.


I could've said better!

Imagine if Bioware came out with a new game exactly like BG...what do you think would happen?

The new generation (does 20 makes me in them?) would reject it...because they are used to games like ME (which is pretty good...except guess what?...yup the scalling :)...and the sides qusts)....or incredibly stupide easy games like Assasin creed 1 and 2....does games (even if graphics are top and gameplay is good) are a total joke!

I will always remeber Jade (lead in the design of the first assasin creed) saying 'the game is hard...you can't actually take more than 1-2 guards at a time and more than 4 hits! Such lies!....an assasin game turned into a action game because of the market


Yes, yes it does.

Asassins Creed 2 is "incredibly stupid easy"???...

You want a real hard rpg game....go back to Pools of Radiance...or stop living in the past people.




Go I am in them but I am not like them....I playd all old scholl RPG at the age of like 17...so I talk with a good idea of does RPG

I did not play Pools of Radiance though is it worth my time?

#409
lorderon99999

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VanDraegon wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

Lol are you blind you can't even see that he his using the rigged DLC stuffe? And he must have all of the high prices stuffe in the store....and he must also be a no life to get all that stuffe...bcause my first run through was 48H (yes I am finish since I started Topic) explored 89% of the map, opened every freaking chest and barrels and I still did not have th money to buy more than 4 uber pricd items ....because I was always buying skills tome, plans and ingrediant for herb and poison



If you finished it in 48 hours you obviously skipped a lot of content. No wonder you didnt have any money. Only have yourself to blame for that.

The DLC items are not rigged, they are there to be used. You not liking them doesnt mean they are a cheat.

Now you resort to telling people they have no life and are stupid. Seems like someone lost his argument.


I did 89% of the world....did every chantry quest....readed all the codx entry....did side quest of almost each companions and did all of their dialogues....opend every single chest or barrels....I think I did almost everything in fact

And I have a good reason to say some people are stupide here when after 18 pages of posts they still think there is a diff issue somewhere

Modifié par lorderon99999, 31 décembre 2009 - 07:55 .


#410
Viglin

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lorderon99999 wrote...

Viglin wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

Sylixe wrote...

So it's gone to 15 pages and nobody yet understands why the scaling is the way it is? The answer lies in the younger generation of gamers that REQUIRE their cheat codes and everything handed to them without any effort. The MMO genre is the best example of what happened to challenging gaming. Unless the game is easy to win with a drooling monkey it will not sell the units the corporate guys have it targeted for.

However the developers have provided the community with the tools to make the game more challenging if they want. This to me is a total scam but at least it's possible to make the game a lot harder than it is with enough time.

The difficulty scaling in games has been slipping for many years now and doesn't appear to have any takers in changing that philosophy. I have been setting newly released games on the hardest setting for the past few years. The end result is utter disappointment at what a developer calls "Nightmare" or "Hard".

If you want to correct the scaling issue you are going to have to break the game up into chapters so that anything you previously met can be replaced with something new and more powerful. It keeps the integrity of the game while at the same time making it believable. However many players don't really like that option as it makes it appear you have less freedom in game. The alternative is making areas inaccesible until you reach a certain level or complete a certain part of the storyline. Again though people see less freedom in that option and reject it.


I could've said better!

Imagine if Bioware came out with a new game exactly like BG...what do you think would happen?

The new generation (does 20 makes me in them?) would reject it...because they are used to games like ME (which is pretty good...except guess what?...yup the scalling :)...and the sides qusts)....or incredibly stupide easy games like Assasin creed 1 and 2....does games (even if graphics are top and gameplay is good) are a total joke!

I will always remeber Jade (lead in the design of the first assasin creed) saying 'the game is hard...you can't actually take more than 1-2 guards at a time and more than 4 hits! Such lies!....an assasin game turned into a action game because of the market


Yes, yes it does.

Asassins Creed 2 is "incredibly stupid easy"???...

You want a real hard rpg game....go back to Pools of Radiance...or stop living in the past people.




Go I am in them but I am not like them....I playd all old scholl RPG at the age of like 17...so I talk with a good idea of does RPG

I did not play Pools of Radiance though is it worth my time?


Unlikely, it was the first d@d pc game and unlikely you can find it anymore[go back like 10-20 years]....nothing like fighting your first troll...and watching it get back up after you thought it was dead....or a single fireball taking out a room full of orcs.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pool_of_Radiance

But since grapthics is what most care about today, it wouldnt stand up.

Modifié par Viglin, 31 décembre 2009 - 08:00 .


#411
SheffSteel

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Level scaling is a pretty silly idea... but it's one of the cheaper solutions to how to implement game areas that are meant to be challenging to parties whose level might be anywhere from 8 to 20.



It's a silly idea because, while a wolf might be challenging and dangerous to a starting character, it is not going to be much of a threat to an experienced warrior, rogue, or mage. Wolves travel in packs because it increases their chances of making a kill. They do not upgrade their fur or claws, or learn to resist spells better.



The designers had the option of adjusting encounter difficulty by altering the type of enemies, their numbers, or their levels. They went for the cheap and cheerful option. Insults and arguments based on player skill (or lack of it) serve only to distract from that truth.

#412
XOGHunter246

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Blight wolfs should be challenge in numbers I would think as they not even normal.

#413
Sylixe

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Eisberg1977 wrote...

Tin Soldier wrote...

Eisberg1977 wrote...

Tin Soldier wrote...


The anti level scaling folks believe that having a level 6 thug in Lowbieville and having a level 20 thug in High City is immersion destroying.
They believe that having a level6 thug that only exists in Lowbieville and having a level 20 elite thug that only exists in High City is immersive.
I don't agree.


You forgot one.  They don't like having constant challege either.  They want to have easy mode fights through out the game, mixed in with challenging fights, to feel like they are getting powerful, not more resourceful.

Is there something about level scaling that precludes that type of combat?


I suppose not.  But that is one of the complaints in this thread with Dragon Age, there is a constant Challenge, and they don't like that either.



I want to meet these people that call this game a challenge.  I have gone back and put the game on NORMAL mode and setup the scripting and watched the PC win almost EVERY fight in the game that is above a normal thug encounter.  Those normal encounters don't count since it's a 100% win ration.  There are 3 specific fights i couldn't get a good script in to win but both were easy with some readjusting through pausing.  If you can do that in a game than the game has ZERO challenge. 

How was i being a jerk by saying this game is hard if you can setup the computer AI to beat itself?  Everyone has those tools at their disposal!  So i stand by my comment about checkers because the game is THAT easy.

#414
Tin Soldier

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lorderon99999 wrote...

I did not play Pools of Radiance though is it worth my time?

If you want to try it there is a download here: www.oldgames.sk/en/game/pool-of-radiance/download/2738/
If you have NeverWinter Nights there is a module here: nwvault.ign.com/View.php
If you have NeverWinter Nights 2 there is a module here:  nwvault.ign.com/View.php
Note I do not know the legality of downloading the original game.  Research the copyright laws in your area.

#415
VanDraegon

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lorderon99999 wrote...

I did 89% of the world....did every chantry quest....readed all the codx entry....did side quest of almost each companions and did all of their dialogues....opend every single chest or barrels....I think I did almost everything in fact

And I have a good reason to say some people are stupide here when after 18 pages of posts they still think there is a diff issue somewhere


My first play through took over 95 hours and i did not open every chest or do every quest. You missed a lot of content.

Some people have reason to say your stupid as well for wanting to be able to walk through some of the content like a player on god mode because of your anti-scaling position. Doesnt mean it is right. The length of the thread doesnt really matter, yours is an opinion. One that a lot of players, myself included, disagree with. Doesnt make em stupid.

#416
Yrkoon

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lorderon99999 wrote...

Prosthetics511 wrote...

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are playing the game on nightmare. If you hate how they can use the same abilities as you, how about you turn the difficulty down instead of **** at the game?


What you're point? Level scalling is still a problem...not because of the diff....but because of what it is

No, the Nightmare difficulty adds an entirely new element to the level scaling.    And that's the point.    If you're on *nightmare* then all bets are off  regarding any discussion about increased difficulty  (scaling).     That's why it's called *nightmare*.  A game's Hardest setting *should* kick your ass and get progressivly tougher as you level... in order to keep kicking your ass..

And stop whining about your own  inability to handle  enemies at their absolute best.  Unlike you, some of us know how to deal with  multiple scattershots.

#417
ladydesire

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lorderon99999 wrote...

What I think would be a good Idea is lets say that th Brasillian Forest are meant to be do first....you do them (if you have the courage you can go in harder places first)...with no scalling...and if they absolutely need scalling everywhere put at leat fixed abilities scale...that means no thug using scattershot...


I'm not sure I get what you're meaning? Are you saying that the game difficulty shouldn't impact the abilities that foes use, which is what others are saying is happening (even if you choose to disagree with them).

#418
DragonRageGT

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Oh Maker, and he insists! Madning! by Morrigan

lorderon99999 wrote...

RageGT wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

This thread has become less a discussion surrounding the relative merits of implementing level scaling than it has a thread about navigating difficult enemy encounters. Could we please remove 'difficulty' from the equation and move the discussion back to the more salient topic of breaking immersion for the sake of simplifying game design?


Well, not entirely true. This is how the thread started:

lorderon99999 wrote...
...stuff
Genlock using scattr shot..... and simple hurlock using last warrior abilities....
...stuff
The migthy Grey Warden who took down a dragon gets killed by 5 thugs!!!! WOW
Constant challenge is plain stupide!
...more stuff
WE DON'T WANT LEVEL SCALLING!


We? Who's we? Most players have no problem with enemies abilities and don't usually complain if they get killed by 5 thugs. They try and do not die to 5 thugs! Not complaining about difficulty? Really???

EDIT:

here's something about "Immersion" in this very thread!

http://social.biowar...510510/9#511383






What you can't seem to understand RAGE is that, and you would understand if you read every posts, that when I say that I am saying that does 5 thugs, at least for me, and even if I don't find it hard...pose the same amount of challenge as a High Dragon....why? Because they all use last level abilities like scattershot...again I am not complaining about diff...just finished the game on nightmare...first run ever BTW...and got wiped 5 times...still think I find the game hard?


You said that 5 thugs killed your mighty Dragonslayer, not I.

lorderon99999 wrote...

RageGT wrote...

@Farrrongoth - Thanks! I really didn't understand a thing from that post. 'Tis not my language! =)

@NotMyName13 - Whatever man. All I'm saying is no matter what level, no matter what we face, after we acquired some skill with the game, nothing can kill us. Sure, I have some reloads on major battles but other than that no. And after my first char who finished with 20 injuries... all my runs are Zero Injuries, all in Nightmare... so yeah, I'm Kind of a Big Deal!

@Sidney - After I learned how to set tactics efficiently, I don't have to micromanage that much anymore. It works very well for me now. And no, I'm no Ubber player... just a regular one who has lots of time to play... entering 500 hrs into it soon.


You're irght on one point...nothing can kill me....still...why should every whit in the game have the same abilities as my lvl 20 PC...give them more hitpoints and dmg at the very last but not the same abilities god damit


Stop metagaming and overcome. You still said 5 thugs killed your mighty Dragonslayer and they shoudn't have!

Sheogorath555 wrote...

I am all for a little level scaling, as long as it is not like oblivion's. No scaling can cause problems like on gothic 3, where you had to be the right level at the right time for the game to be fun.


It is not a problem in Gothic 3. It is a trademark of Piranha Bytes Games! You don't need the right level anywhere in the game. You need the right skills! (in character skills, training, spending your learning points and specializing in something)

SheffSteel wrote...

Level scaling is a pretty silly idea... but it's one of the cheaper solutions to how to implement game areas that are meant to be challenging to parties whose level might be anywhere from 8 to 20.

It's a silly idea because, while a wolf might be challenging and dangerous to a starting character, it is not going to be much of a threat to an experienced warrior, rogue, or mage. Wolves travel in packs because it increases their chances of making a kill. They do not upgrade their fur or claws, or learn to resist spells better.

The designers had the option of adjusting encounter difficulty by altering the type of enemies, their numbers, or their levels. They went for the cheap and cheerful option. Insults and arguments based on player skill (or lack of it) serve only to distract from that truth.


Sorry Sheff. It would only be true if they didn't have a fixed max and min levels. Wolves... I always get them at level 7, leaving Lothering... and never die. I only play NM after my first run and I still don't see what's the problem here. Don't make your truth an universal absolute one... if your read some previous posts, there is only one undeniable truth that none can question.

You sounded like if we indeed increase our Hit Points in real life... and like there is really healing potions for people to drink when they get shot and instantly heal... So train a lot in whatever you like, master of whatever combat art or weapon and go face a pack of wolves expecting not to be destroyed! this is a fraking fantasy game. No one would ever beat a Dragon with swords and arrows if they existed. No one will ever beat a gang of 15-20 thieves ever, with a 4 members party with swords and arrows. I'm leaving magic out of this first because they don't exist anymore than a Dragon does and second because I played with a non-mage party and hell, we pwned!.

sythsillis wrote...

The bandit fights throughout the game (including the bandit ambush in Denerim) are among the easiest fights in the game. What creates the problem is that some players take things for granted and let their brains go to sleep unless they see an orange title over something's head. Just as in life, anything in Fereldon can kill you if you are not paying attention. Take the ambush in Denerim for instance, drop a couple of traps in the door way, pull the melee guys into the kill zone, throw sleep, grease, and fireball. Then send in Morrigan to mop up the archers while the rest of the party sips martinees and discuss the latest rerun of Sex in the City.
- Help! I've fallen and I can't get up! ... the old lady of the wood.


True, so true! I'll just add that you absolutely don't need mages to whatever you face. Just some knowledge of how to do it and if that fails, expand your knowledge through learning from your mistakes!

Modifié par RageGT, 31 décembre 2009 - 09:51 .


#419
Auzner

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I need to vent from this game and take a break. Several pages of ranting in a multiple paged thread seems a good place to hide it.

Level scaling sucks, it's actually killing all CRPGs. But it's what everyone expects now to be in their video games. When you post about it a game's forums mostly everyone will be biased towards the game and not defend any creativity or reasonability. I've excused it until now, but due to a quest event this scaling won't let me proceed as I'm fighting a scaled full party encounter with no option for having all four members. Reloading the save over and traveling again and again would not avoid the random encounter. I found a non-roleplaying work around by traveling to my camp instead of the destination the story pressed. Yes, I found a way to weasel around it, but I hate having to break roleplay elements every time the game has some flaw.

Leveled encounters with no plot element completely defy what a roleplaying game should be to me. You kill the quest boss in a challenging and rewarding battle. Next is a random encounter that turns out more difficult than that boss battle. Too many games do this thing where the story goes “oh there are no NPC warriors that can match the doom we face, we need the protagonist to save us.” Yet whenever you have to fight the rogue guardsmen or the random bandits they always end up being overpowering and annoyingly catch you at a point where you weren't ready and don't have a convenient load point. Sure, just say “oh you suck at video games, quit whining” but if there are ample challenging opponents like this how is that convincing me about the plot where I'm the saviour protagonist warlord?

In Dragon Age when I analyze the numbers the game gives you such as 'damage' and 'hitpoints' then look at the opponents it makes me wonder why it was even designed this way. If Morrigan dies in a couple hits, why do enemy mages take at least a dozen? The numbers pop up saying how much damage they take. So those enemy mages just get to have nearly a thousand hitpoints just because I'm a particular level in the game? Opponents aren't created as "characters" using the same restrictions and rules that yours faces, something DnD games did. A boss warrior will still be a warrior, but probably have thousands upon thousands of hitpoints to simply be "oh, a challenge."

The DnD ruleset of the Baldur's Gate games made a bit more sense. Rather than "diablo-ize" all the stats and items where they just increase to no end, it had chance to hit and hit points as the reward for higher levels. Its quantizing of abilities like strength and dexterity as fixed values let you compare characters to each other in a more "realistic" way. An obvious example of how Dragon Age has followed all the other “CRPGs” would be when I first got Shale my dwarven warrior had much higher strength and constitution at around the same level. In BG it would be just like 18/91 vs 23 or something. The golem should clearly always be stronger by its nature. In Dragon Age to me it feels like none of the statistics really define your character, they're all just numbers to show off your combat prowess. If my warrior's strength is higher than Shale does that mean I could beat it in a wrestling match? Or why do swords of certain materials only need 18 strength, but another will need well over 30? So you have to become twice as strong to use it? It sounds more like you just need to be skilled enough to handle that sword and not tire from it. The superior materials are supposed to lessen its weight anyhow. It's sounds like strength (like all the others) is just a stat for “we don't want you wearing that armor or using that weapon yet because it would be over powered and rather than having you not discover it yet or a having creative story we're simply going diablo on you because it makes game design easy and appeases the casual gamers with abundant new goodies.” I remember when it was like “a +2 longsword!? Kick ass!” and then you either got tons of gold selling it or used it. Alas, even DnD now has strayed from a fixed ability system with later editions. I guess the more you can boost various numbers around the more a general audience can find appeal. +1 to dexterity in BG meant quite a lot.

“It's just a game. It's just a game. It's just a game. It's just a game.” That's telling me “what is so should remain so simply because it is so already.” I know that's some form of fallacy but can't say which. “Fallacies? It's a game.” Yes, I heard that already, I guess you don't have the intelligence to consider game design or even be willing to ponder it a moment but will speak on it anyhow. Having pride over how easy the game is for you no-matter-what won't excuse the point I'm making about the roleplaying portions.

Dragon Age has rough design for a wider appeal (like all games co-released on PC and console now) but is still a solid well polished game worth playing. I blame all of Dragon Age's faults on what the times today have done to all video games. Remember when they were involving enough that you cared about memorizing people and places that there didn't need to be big glowing markers floating around? Oh you can turn it off, but the game was designed around those, it would be going out of spec with it and make it more frustrating. I'm criticizing it because I thought about it, not that I'm lazy. It's still a game and has to be played the way it was designed. Chests don't have to sparkle, but there's no “search room” button that has you proceed to open every possible container in the room and display animations for all of it so you're actually doing it. Even if there was the game still has no time constraints for doing that. You could spend days glancing at all the book bindings in the mage tower if you wanted to role play that as a thorough search. Books were done well though, you have to “look around” with your mouse cursor as if you're actually browsing the covers and pages since they don't sparkle.

I'm hoping this shows some of us actually do have a great deal to discuss when we say “leveled encounters suck.” Even though I'm intelligent enough to scratch the surface by expressing myself about it, I still know I'm being foolish thinking everyone else would care or have the attention span to even bother with my details as well as agreeing with me. That is why from the start I admitted I am venting and not really engaging into back and forth conversation about this. I'm aware most people will not care to agree, understand, or even read my over analytical opinions probably because they don't want video games to require them to think anymore. If I can't change the path “rpg” labeled video games have taken I can still **** about it at least. Point whoring with spells, swords and story is what they really are.

I feel like I should be mentioning again I do like this game Dragon Age, but the experiences in it that have brought me the most enjoyment are all possible within the infinity engine.

Modifié par Auzner, 31 décembre 2009 - 10:00 .


#420
knownastherat

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Auzner wrote...


.. I blame all of Dragon Age's faults on what the times today have done to all video games..


Actually have read all your venting ;) but this stands out to me. It's like old/er people saying: "These kids today! In my times, when I was young .. " which maybe "true" from their point of view, but does have a little chance of stopping the world from rolling.

Mind, I would like to have Bioware as developer of my personal games, but it is not going to happen. So that is what we have venting for I guess.

#421
DragonRageGT

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knownastherat wrote...

Auzner wrote...


.. I blame all of Dragon Age's faults on what the times today have done to all video games..


Actually have read all your venting ;) but this stands out to me. It's like old/er people saying: "These kids today! In my times, when I was young .. " which maybe "true" from their point of view, but does have a little chance of stopping the world from rolling.

Mind, I would like to have Bioware as developer of my personal games, but it is not going to happen. So that is what we have venting for I guess.


I did too and it is simply crazy!

If a game has level requirement for items, people complain. If it requires atributes people complain. If it doesn't require anything people complain. If the game has scaling, people complain. If it does not, people complain and say it is a problem like one just did about Gothic 3. If game is open world copy/paste dungeons people complain. If one is fully 3D open world but madeby Germans, people complain. If it is not sandbox and made by polish, people complain. If it's not sandbox and has too much cutscenes and dialogues, people complain!

Get the frak real! Learn to love them all. They are all fraking great games and focus on what they do best. They provide great enterteinment for a cheap price and THANKS GOD they are so different of each other!

I love Risen
I love Gothic
I love BG
I love NWN
I love Diablo
I love Oblivion
I love Morrowind
I love Diablo 2
I love Ultima IX
I love Fable
I love Dungeon Siege
I love The Witcher
I love Dragon Age

And prolly a few others I forgot or are of different style.

Now, I don't want anyone to be as easy as I am to see good things in most everything. (there are lots of serious bad things out there) but if you don't love any of those. Just DON"T play it! Why torture us with stupidity?

They do have one thing in common. All their forums had exaclty the same thing as here. I never saw this in a Movie website or in a Music group website. "I hate your movie and it should been have done like this or like that"! "I hate your songs and it should have been like this or like that". Usually people just go watch another movie or listen to another band.

Why in the name of the Maker should all those developers HAVE to please everyone? Does anyone really expects different versions of the same game? Because that's what it would take. If a game has a clear majority of people loving it, do you really expect them to change it?

I can agree if someone claims a DEMO might work to prevent you from getting a game based only on favorable reviews or gameplay movies or viral ad campaign. But then, if no demo is available, get a fraking T copy and test it first!

#422
Fluffykeith

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Can I ask, when do enemy casters in this game "ever" take fifteen hits to kill? I never noticed them ever take more than three or four.



I also find the argument that mobs shouldn't have access to the same skills as the player to be very weird. Why shouldn't they? If the skill exists within the world then the mobs should have the ability to have learned it too, yes? Since they never have access to the full range of skills that you do (you have access to say about "10-20" per party member. Each mob maybe has 3 skills to use. J don't see why that's such snug deal

#423
Guest_Maviarab_*

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Brilliant post Rage :)

#424
Darpaek

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They didn't want to make a world where you went Lothering > Redcliffe > Mage Tower > Forest > Orzammar, so they included level scaling to give you the illusion of freedom while attempting to pose a challenge to the player regardless of level wherever they went.



Personally, I think level-scaling takes away from the gameworld and the story. If you decide to check out the forest before Redcliff, you should get your ass kicked by monsters and limp away in defeat until the day comes when you can single-handedly end whatever problem has plagued this forest for the last 500 years...



Level-scaling results in a ridiculous gameworld - especially if you leave Denerim to last (as you should... no spoilers, but you're kinda outlaws). I think the devs played too much Ultima Online back in the day. Imagine 20 dudes with Scattershot and Arrow of Slaying. Now what did you have to do to get those skills for yourself? Now, all 20 of these dudes did the same thing AND they're just hanging out in an alley waiting to gank some passerby's? That's only realistic in Despise! LOL



Some of my favorite parts of DA:O are near the end - where they set you up against zerg mobs and you rain death down upon all who draw near. Sorry - maybe I'm compensating for my own failures in life, but it's fantasy for a reason, right? But then the real flaws in the combat engine become apparent as dozens of dumb AI dudes run past you to some artificially programmed waypoint that only they know about and there's no AoO-style mechanic and they don't stop to fight and you get the stupid animation issues of you swinging (or failing to swing and the dude just waltzes straight thru your threat zone and ignores you LOL) and the dude falling down dead 10 ft away, etc...



So maybe high-level encounters compensate better for the lameness in the combat engine.

#425
Realmjumper

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Who chose to play on Nightmare? You did. Now you're whining the game is too hard. It's called Nightmare for a reason.