444 réponses à ce sujet

[ChangoLoco69]

lorderon99999 wrote...

I am curious...what was you're groupe on Nightmare?

2 warriors 1 archer and a healing mage

worked pretty fine for me.

and by what i have read from you. with no mage to heal you then thats your own fault on why you were dieing.

[DragonRageGT]

It is also possible to solo the game with a Rogue, with a Two Hander, with many different classes and people have done it and showed it in the tubes. So mages are absolutely not a must-have in a party and AW is not the only class that can solo DA:O.

I understand what OP means but still, it is far from being a game breaking issue once you know how to deal best with every challenge the game will make you face.

Modifié par RageGT, 28 décembre 2009 - 11:31 .

[Torias]

Also, the game is not intended to be realistic. It is a game. If thugs have high training and are powerful, it is because the in game fiction and the gameplay mechanics need to be balanced against each other.



The game is intended to be difficult. In order to achieve that design goal, the fiction has to be stretched a little. In general, the player engages in "suspension of disbelief" in order to go along with the stretching, since they're having fun with the challenge.



If you are finding the game too difficult and are not having fun with the challenge, then I can see why in your frustration that you'll "cancel" your suspension of disbelief and lash out at the stretches in the fiction as an excuse for why you're having problems.



But, the gameplay mechanics are designed to be tactical combat challenge. There is the intention that the game will always be challenging, from low levels to high levels. At high levels, a well composed party of well designed characters will be a lot more powerful than a low level party, because of good design decisions the player has made.

[lorderon99999]

ChangoLoco69 wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

I am curious...what was you're groupe on Nightmare?

2 warriors 1 archer and a healing mage

worked pretty fine for me.

and by what i have read from you. with no mage to heal you then thats your own fault on why you were dieing.

Healing Mage! There you have it

[CJohnJones]

lorderon99999 wrote...

CJohnJones wrote...

deathwing200 wrote...

CJohnJones wrote...

Say, you do realize that, in real life, wolves are powerful creatures who can kill people. A pack of wolves is actually tougher than a skilled human warrior.

I disagree with the OP in regards to scaling, but arguments like this are plain stupid. Like someone before me said, this is a game, not a real life simulator. A game where my cloth wearing mage can take a hit from a greatsword and lose X amount of hitpoints doesn't readily lend itself to realism already, so a hero who can beat a dragon and then is challenged by thugs can annoy some people. After all, why even bother gathering allies? Just grab a dozen or two Denerim thugs and go kill all darkspawn, archdemon included.

Calm down, man. Pirate OP just complained that his warrior couldn't kill a pack of wolves. I say that it is reasonable for wolves to be as tough as men (since in rl they are tougher). It is a judgement call by the devs where on the "toughness" scale wolves fall. Some games have wolves as the starter level 0 mobs. This game makes them higher, more in line with the real threat that they pose to humans. If you have a complaint maybe the complaint should be that "humans should never be able to defeat dragons." I'd buy that sooner than i would buy "wolves should present no challenge to human warriors."


Personally I am fine with both, since it's just a game and all.

I want you to read back and Quote when i said this ''Calm down, man. Pirate OP just complained that his warrior couldn't kill a pack of wolves''

Uh...."A band of wolf is harder than a GOD DAM Elite warrior or hero" close enough for you?  The calm down, man part was me. Heh. Doubt you would bring up your own piracy and all.

[ChangoLoco69]

lorderon99999 wrote...

ChangoLoco69 wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

I am curious...what was you're groupe on Nightmare?

2 warriors 1 archer and a healing mage

worked pretty fine for me.

and by what i have read from you. with no mage to heal you then thats your own fault on why you were dieing.

Healing Mage! There you have it

Exactly!
why dont you get yourself one and stop complaining about level scalling and dieing by a group of thugs!!!!

[Eisberg1977]

lorderon99999 wrote...

Eisberg1977 wrote...

I don't remember in BG 1/2, KOTOR, NWN where the enemies were ever not near my level. This game is no different. Only in Sandbox game is level scaling is bad, other then that story progression games like BG 1/2, KOTOR, NWN had level scaling in a sense, but that was only because they were linear and by the time you reached the level 10 mobs, you were naturally level 9-11. This game needed to have level scaling so that you could go in any order you want, otherwise they might as well make it completely linear and give you no choice, and make you go in a certain order, to keep the challenge constant.

Also, this game was designed to be party game, just like BG 1/2, KOTOR, and NWN were designed to be party games, and the party were needed to complete.  At least this game gives some options to go at it solo with certian builds.

I did BG and BG2 solo with a Kensei/Mage on Hardcore diff so stop saying false claims...BG had no level scalling at all....and BG2 at encounter scalling at a very little degree (No item/Creatures/Special Mod level scalling)

BG had much more freedom (even without level scalling) than DA:O

I disagree, BG was a lot more linear then DAO is.  BG didn't need level scaling, because it was extremely linear, by the time you enter Area X with mobs being level 10-12, your character was already level 10 naturally.  You could try skipping alot of side quests, but eventually you would hit a wall and you had to do side quests to continue.  But with DAO you can skip every side quest and still complete the story, now that is choice and freedom, more freedom then BG really.

Also, yeah I forgot that certian builds can solo BG, hmm just like certian builds can solo DAO as well.

[lorderon99999]

CJohnJones wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

CJohnJones wrote...

deathwing200 wrote...

CJohnJones wrote...

Say, you do realize that, in real life, wolves are powerful creatures who can kill people. A pack of wolves is actually tougher than a skilled human warrior.

I disagree with the OP in regards to scaling, but arguments like this are plain stupid. Like someone before me said, this is a game, not a real life simulator. A game where my cloth wearing mage can take a hit from a greatsword and lose X amount of hitpoints doesn't readily lend itself to realism already, so a hero who can beat a dragon and then is challenged by thugs can annoy some people. After all, why even bother gathering allies? Just grab a dozen or two Denerim thugs and go kill all darkspawn, archdemon included.

Calm down, man. Pirate OP just complained that his warrior couldn't kill a pack of wolves. I say that it is reasonable for wolves to be as tough as men (since in rl they are tougher). It is a judgement call by the devs where on the "toughness" scale wolves fall. Some games have wolves as the starter level 0 mobs. This game makes them higher, more in line with the real threat that they pose to humans. If you have a complaint maybe the complaint should be that "humans should never be able to defeat dragons." I'd buy that sooner than i would buy "wolves should present no challenge to human warriors."


Personally I am fine with both, since it's just a game and all.

I want you to read back and Quote when i said this ''Calm down, man. Pirate OP just complained that his warrior couldn't kill a pack of wolves''

Uh...."A band of wolf is harder than a GOD DAM Elite warrior or hero" close enough for you?  The calm down, man part was me. Heh. Doubt you would bring up your own piracy and all.

I was not comparing the pack of wolves to my Warrior...but some boss Warrior mod in the game

But it my fault I understand why you did not undertsand what I meant

[lorderon99999]

ChangoLoco69 wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

ChangoLoco69 wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

I am curious...what was you're groupe on Nightmare?

2 warriors 1 archer and a healing mage

worked pretty fine for me.

and by what i have read from you. with no mage to heal you then thats your own fault on why you were dieing.

Healing Mage! There you have it

Exactly!
why dont you get yourself one and stop complaining about level scalling and dieing by a group of thugs!!!!

So If I don't like Level Scalling I have to force myself and take Wynne in my party even if I hate her? Then the designer of DA:O talks about freedom?

[Sidney]

lorderon99999 wrote...
Was Baldur's Gate boring and pointless?

It had no level scalling and is still paised even today....mmmmmmmmmmm I wonder why?

BG1 had no scaling but then again there were certain things you could not do at level 1 w/o dying for sure...try the Nashkell Mines or even Firewine Bridge at level 1. No chance. Fallout had no level scaling either but then you could go to places that'd get you killed as well.

That is the trade off, no scaling = de facto linearity because of the difficulty of foes. Scaling = super bandits and uber-guards. Neither is a perfect answer to the problem.

[lorderon99999]

Eisberg1977 wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

Eisberg1977 wrote...

I don't remember in BG 1/2, KOTOR, NWN where the enemies were ever not near my level. This game is no different. Only in Sandbox game is level scaling is bad, other then that story progression games like BG 1/2, KOTOR, NWN had level scaling in a sense, but that was only because they were linear and by the time you reached the level 10 mobs, you were naturally level 9-11. This game needed to have level scaling so that you could go in any order you want, otherwise they might as well make it completely linear and give you no choice, and make you go in a certain order, to keep the challenge constant.

Also, this game was designed to be party game, just like BG 1/2, KOTOR, and NWN were designed to be party games, and the party were needed to complete.  At least this game gives some options to go at it solo with certian builds.

I did BG and BG2 solo with a Kensei/Mage on Hardcore diff so stop saying false claims...BG had no level scalling at all....and BG2 at encounter scalling at a very little degree (No item/Creatures/Special Mod level scalling)

BG had much more freedom (even without level scalling) than DA:O

I disagree, BG was a lot more linear then DAO is.  BG didn't need level scaling, because it was extremely linear, by the time you enter Area X with mobs being level 10-12, your character was already level 10 naturally.  You could try skipping alot of side quests, but eventually you would hit a wall and you had to do side quests to continue.  But with DAO you can skip every side quest and still complete the story, now that is choice and freedom, more freedom then BG really.

Also, yeah I forgot that certian builds can solo BG, hmm just like certian builds can solo DAO as well.

Yes certain build in DA:O can solo...like Arcane Mage...but we must all approve that in DA:O...if you want to play on higher diff you have to comply to the Tank, Mage, Rogue, X groupe...or else it not impossible but it a pain in the ass...

I made it to level 15 without using 1 mage on nightmare...i died about 30 times....but I just don't enjoy this whole environnement that surrouds me that levels up with me....where the progression? wher is the immersion?....I mean come on guys! Why do a simpl groupe of Genlock use top abilities! it juste stupide....

Also....constant challenge is bad....no progression....it good to know that you can kill a mod in 5sec because you played freaking 35 hours to get mroe powerful!....but again...they should scale only special encounter...like a big boss....or a battle you need to do in order to get a powerful artifact...sens of progression...I will never say it too much

Modifié par lorderon99999, 28 décembre 2009 - 11:42 .

[Eisberg1977]

lorderon99999 wrote...

ChangoLoco69 wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

ChangoLoco69 wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

I am curious...what was you're groupe on Nightmare?

2 warriors 1 archer and a healing mage

worked pretty fine for me.

and by what i have read from you. with no mage to heal you then thats your own fault on why you were dieing.

Healing Mage! There you have it

Exactly!
why dont you get yourself one and stop complaining about level scalling and dieing by a group of thugs!!!!

So If I don't like Level Scalling I have to force myself and take Wynne in my party even if I hate her? Then the designer of DA:O talks about freedom?

Freedom is such a broad term.  It could mean anything from freedom to choose any skill you want for your class, all the way to having freedom to go and do anything you want.

Mind showing some interviews, quotes, videos, box description that talks about freedom?

[ChangoLoco69]

lorderon99999 wrote...

So If I don't like Level Scalling I have to force myself and take Wynne in my party even if I hate her? Then the designer of DA:O talks about freedom?

 then have whatever party you want. no one if forcing you to have a mage in your party but it helps with survivabiltity. The reason why you are dieing is from your own decisions. Not the level scaling, or the skills the enemies do. Its your own fault.

[Torias]

lorderon99999 wrote...

So If I don't like Level Scalling I have to force myself and take Wynne in my party even if I hate her? Then the designer of DA:O talks about freedom?

No, a healing mage is not required.

Healing of some sort IS required, so if you don't have a mage that can cast healing spells (ie, Morrigan can learn healing spells), then you need to have lots of healing potions and use them a lot.

You should have a collection of the 4 different strength healing potions, since each strength is on a different 5 second cool down timer.

[lorderon99999]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Torias wrote...

The game is intended to be difficult.

If you are having trouble, then you need to re-examine your approach to the game and what tools you are using.

If you want the game to be easy, put the difficulty on easy and then you should be able to play without critical thinking, tactical decision making and strategic party / character design.

Mages are indeed very powerful and useful at disabling /damaging groups of enemies.

However, there are other ways of dealing with archers, such as stealth, or a two handed weapon using warrior with the Indomitable talent active (immune to stun).

I'm not a fan of level scaling but not for reasons relating to difficulty\\\\gaming competency. Again, poorly implemented scaling can serve to take one out of the (otherwise outstanding) experience. A simple hierarchy for the scaling our gaming adversaries would do much to remedy the situation - how are things handled currently?

Thank you! SOmeone seems to understand that I am not complaning about diff but the level scalling system that breaks immersion and sense of proression

[JackFuzz]

Can a level 8 rat kill a level 3 dragon?

Think mcfly!

[lorderon99999]

Sidney wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...
Was Baldur's Gate boring and pointless?

It had no level scalling and is still paised even today....mmmmmmmmmmm I wonder why?

BG1 had no scaling but then again there were certain things you could not do at level 1 w/o dying for sure...try the Nashkell Mines or even Firewine Bridge at level 1. No chance. Fallout had no level scaling either but then you could go to places that'd get you killed as well.

That is the trade off, no scaling = de facto linearity because of the difficulty of foes. Scaling = super bandits and uber-guards. Neither is a perfect answer to the problem.

I take option #1 any time....feel of danger! another importent element of a good RPG

[F-C]

i like being challenged and i dislike games that become easy mode as you progress.



it seems to me the original poster just wants to be able to 'power up' like some anime character and be super powerful using abilities that noone else ever has access to and becomes so strong the game just becomes stupidly easy unless hes fighting some super boss.



i really dont find that type of game very enjoyable personally. im more of a chess player type of person and i like being challenged to where my opponent is on the same level as me and it comes down to my intelligence to win the match.



i dont want to just press my 'i win' button and turn into 'uber powered up super-force man' and slaughter hundreds of enemies and be like 'zomg i pwn face so hard'.

[Torias]

lorderon99999 wrote...

Also....constant challenge is bad....no progression....it good to know that you can kill a mod in 5sec because you played freaking 35 hours to get mroe powerful!....but again...they should scale only special encounter...like a big boss....or a battle you need to do in order to get a powerful artifact...sens of progression...I will never say it too much

See, that's your problem.

Progression in Dragon Age is NOT "all the monsters are easier to kill".

Progressions in Dragon Age is:
1) More of the story
2) More specialisation for each character (stacking points in a particular stat)
3) More tactical choices for each character (unlocking new talents / spells, having enough stamina / mana to use more talents / spells)
4) Party synergy, building each character in the party so that the party itself ends up stronger.

The enemy level is scaled to match your party level so that you can see the impact of the choices you made.

If you make bad choices, the game can actually get harder as you level up.

If you make terrible choices, the game could be impossible.

So, you have two options:
a) Make better choices
 Lower the difficulty

Modifié par Torias, 28 décembre 2009 - 11:50 .

[lorderon99999]

I am starting to wonder if you guys just defend level scalling because you like DA:O





I like DA:O....very good game...but I can be critic....and for now...it really game breaking for me



I mean....what the catégorie of mod the most used for Oblivion?



Yup it anti-level scalling mod like OOO.....So in majority....people don't like level scalling...



And I used Anti-Level scalling mod in Olibivion...and I had a LOT of freedom...while playing in a world of great immersion...progression and sens of danger

[lorderon99999]

F-C wrote...

i like being challenged and i dislike games that become easy mode as you progress.

it seems to me the original poster just wants to be able to 'power up' like some anime character and be super powerful using abilities that noone else ever has access to and becomes so strong the game just becomes stupidly easy unless hes fighting some super boss.

i really dont find that type of game very enjoyable personally. im more of a chess player type of person and i like being challenged to where my opponent is on the same level as me and it comes down to my intelligence to win the match.

i dont want to just press my 'i win' button and turn into 'uber powered up super-force man' and slaughter hundreds of enemies and be like 'zomg i pwn face so hard'.

Nope you got me all wrong....A pack of thug should not be able to take down my master 2H warrior level 20...it just not RPG

[F-C]

lorderon99999 wrote...

Nope you got me all wrong....A pack of thug should not be able to take down my master 2H warrior level 20...it just not RPG

actually i seem to have you about right.

i want a pack of thugs to be a challenge to my level 20. i want it to take a little thought and intelligence to win without getting beat. i want that challenge.

you on the other hand want to be super-man at level 20 and just pwn their face.

i dont agree with that at all, thats just boring.

[MGeezer]

As far as i am concerned the problem is not level-scaling, it is not even learning to play. it is simple fact that on two paythroughs the hardest thing in the entire game has been a bandit ambush and thugs in Denerim--Dragons--beat'em;  Revenants--yep; a gazillion bosses--clobered 'em.

something is hopelessly off when the i can win the final battle with no reloads, beat every boss in the game, and remember the most difficult fights in the game as thugs and bandits. Tthis is just all wrong, from every viewpoint. I am not even objecting to the difficulty, I am saying labels these toughest fights in the game differently--say Loghain's elite assassins, or the elite dark spawn or something other than bandits and thugs!!!!!!

I really, really, really hate remembering my toughest fights in every game as not bosses and final battles but frigging thugs and bandits!!!!!

Modifié par MGeezer, 28 décembre 2009 - 11:55 .

[Torias]

lorderon99999 wrote...

Nope you got me all wrong....A pack of thug should not be able to take down my master 2H warrior level 20...it just not RPG

Bioware disagrees.

This is a tactical combat RPG.

If your level 20 2h warrior is badly designed, or in a badly composed or badly equipped party, then yes, they are likely to die.

The constant challenge is there to provide something to stress test your decisions and your tactical capabilities.

The characters don't get more powerful because they level up.

They get more powerful if the player makes intelligent decisions about how to design them, how to equip them and how to compose the party, and if the player learns more about how to tactically use their party of characters in combat.

[lorderon99999]

Torias wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

Also....constant challenge is bad....no progression....it good to know that you can kill a mod in 5sec because you played freaking 35 hours to get mroe powerful!....but again...they should scale only special encounter...like a big boss....or a battle you need to do in order to get a powerful artifact...sens of progression...I will never say it too much

See, that's your problem.

Progression in Dragon Age is NOT "all the monsters are easier to kill".

Progressions in Dragon Age is:
1) More of the story
2) More specialisation for each character (stacking points in a particular stat)
3) More tactical choices for each character (unlocking new talents / spells, having enough stamina / mana to use more talents / spells)
4) Party synergy, building each character in the party so that the party itself ends up stronger.

The enemy level is scaled to match your party level so that you can see the impact of the choices you made.

If you make bad choices, the game can actually get harder as you level up.

If you make terrible choices, the game could be impossible.

So, you have two options:
a) Make better choices
 Lower the difficulty

1) Which RPG don't have story progression....

2) Which RPG do not have leveling up options...

3) Which RPG don't gives you new abilities to fight with....

4) This point get totally annalitd by the fact that the nemy mods use the same abilities as you do

So what makes DA:O pregression special?

As for you'Re point b....if you raded me just a little...I would'nt have to reapt for the 1000 time that I am not complaining about diff...but the lack of immersion...and power progression DA:O has