444 réponses à ce sujet

[Cybercat999]

Torias wrote...
Challenging tactical combat does not include "my character is high level so the game is now easier".

And in this kind of game it would be totally pointless too, not to say it would kill the fun for 99% of us and leave about 1 person happy

[lorderon99999]

XOGHunter246 wrote...

Where there a will there way nothing impossible in games there always some way to get the job done. It all about using correct tactics if you find yourself being killed by scatter shot a lot then try another tactic. I got killed by them thugs few times on my first time playing DAO till I found a tactic that works effectively. I'm the type to not let few deaths make me think why did they do this make them scale with me.
You say difficulty isn't a issue but your saying level scaling is isn't that part of the difficulty? If you can still beat them then why complain about level scaling?

The only part level scalling plays in diff is that the challenges is constent...every single fight...which is not my cup of tee whn playing RPG...I want some progression...not bcome UBER but feel more powerful not only more  resourceful

[lorderon99999]

outlaworacle wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

...becasue if you read some articls on level scalling you will see that most player don't like it

Most people voted Bush for President twice, consecutively. Most people a fuggin' morons. Squeaky wheel always gets the grease. Most people hear "level scaling" and think "Oblivion", so they say it is bad. It works fine in plenty of other games.

I must give you crdit on that one....but for my part...I don't think oblivion when I hear level scalling

[Whailor]

Level scaling in Oblivion wasn't an issue for me as I said (or in any other game so far). What did such in Oblivion was the way the char leveling itself was done. I was the one who spent many hours to level the char "correctly". Was boring but end result was good. I think that if they'd done that part differently, the "optimum char leveling", then it would have been quite OK for all (which, by the way, is not an issue now anyway with the custom mods which allow to do it differently).



As for DAO, the leveling here is quite a bit different and much more "forgiving". Mobs do level but the level range is determined for mobs per area, while you can level all the way to max and then go and beat them later. Maybe, in some ways, the autoleveling is a sort of "lazy man's way out" because it means that the developer doesn't have to manually set up mobs into each and every area, all with different levels and stats and gear and so on. So the autoleveling sort of works around that. But, again, the autoleveling done in DAO is not as "ruthless" as it was in say, Oblivion. And since you're obviously familiar with Oblivion autoleveling system, I am pretty sure you would agree then that DAO does it differently and in a better way.



Things change and I think that the autoleveling is here to stay. I mean, back in time people made everything manually and each item was pretty much a unique item on it's own. Now we have mass production of items and everything is the same. Progress they call it. Some may not like it but they still buy those clothes because they don't want to walk around with bare backside. Or with empty belly just because that bread wasn't made in stone oven over fire made from oak wood. So is it in the games, autoleveling is sort of mass production and in some titles it's not done too well, but in some it's OK. I'm sure that an experienced gamer like you can determine easily when some area may be, for time being, too high level and thus go get some levels in other areas and later come back, also with knowledge that in DAO, the opponents don't autolevel indefinitely, instead they have certain ranges. Which means that in the end, you'll be the tougher fella on the field anyway

[ChangoLoco69]

lorderon99999 wrote...

You also repeat the same thing....I repeat the same thing because people keep saying to me over and over again that I have a prop with diff when I am almost finish with the game with 1 rogue and 3 warrior on Nightmare with not so much diff......as for the people approving on this topic that scalling is a good idea I have to giv you right...which is pretty odd...becasue if you read some articls on level scalling you will see that most player don't like it

What have i repeated? My statements are specifically to the questions and opinions you have said back to me and what you have posted. Like you said "some articles on level scalling" have more people not favoring level scaling, but last time i checked some isnt the Majority. So seems like more people like level scalling according to what you have just said.

So the arguement of people not liking level scaling more than people who to enjoy it is out of the picture.

And i cant wait to see how you try to argue this since what everything you say is "logical"

[bobtheworm]

Lorderon,

Correct me if I am wrong. You can not beat the game on Nightmare (The hardest level of the game) so there must be something wrong with the game. I will tell you right now that the biggest problem with your party is 3 warriors and a rogue. You need a mage. Not just any mage but one that does a lot of damage. Fireball is archerbane. My typical Party is Tank, Support DPS, Locksmith, and Healer.



Making Nightmare easier so you can beat it seems to defeat the purpose of having a Nightmare settings. Shall we make Nightmare now Extremely Easy so you can come back to the forums and brag about how you beat it in 30 hours with an all warrior party and no heals. You really must stand back and rethink your stance.

[ChangoLoco69]

[quote]lorderon99999 wrote...
that part of the difficulty? If you can still beat them then why complain about level scaling?[/quote]

The only part level scalling plays in diff is that the challenges is constent...every single fight...which is not my cup of tee whn playing RPG...I want some progression...not bcome UBER but feel more powerful not only more  resourceful

[/quote]
 so why still post on this thread when dragon age is not your type of game? go play something else if it isnt your "cup of tea"

[XOGHunter246]

Well it is his trend to post I think if they made npc level as well in oblivion the scaling would not of been so bad. I was annoyed i could not complete certain quest cause the npc died to a high level bear.

[craze9]

Yeah, for a sandbox game.  For Linear games like BG, KOTOR, NWN level scaling is nothing new.  Yes, BG basically had level scaling, because you had to be a certian level before you could attempt the next area of linear progression.

Notice how level scaling never became an issue till Oblivion had it.  That is because for Sand Box games Level scaling was new, and it didn't fit.  But for games like this, level scaling is a very very old mechanic, and has been around long before BG was in development, the only difference is that it wasn't called level scaling, the term didn't even exist, even though the mechanic existed.

You know what level scaling was called before Oblivion?  It was called Linear.

Overall I get your point and agree w/ it, but I think you're gloriously incorrect in saying BG has level scaling. The opponents' level/difficulty is fixed in that game... it does not scale. Sarevok has x hit points regardless of your level when you fight him, and that goes for everything in the game as far as I know. So there is zero level scaling. And it isn't really that linear a game either. You 100% do not have to be a certain LEVEL to "attempt the next area of linear progression," you just have to be able to defeat the opponents there. For players like me who want to seek out the hard fights early on (e.g. kill Drizzt asap) this is a great format, and I miss it. And personally I think it's one reason why BG is so great.

Modifié par craze9, 29 décembre 2009 - 01:30 .

[lorderon99999]

[quote]ChangoLoco69 wrote...

[quote]lorderon99999 wrote...
that part of the difficulty? If you can still beat them then why complain about level scaling?[/quote]

The only part level scalling plays in diff is that the challenges is constent...every single fight...which is not my cup of tee whn playing RPG...I want some progression...not bcome UBER but feel more powerful not only more  resourceful

[/quote]
 so why still post on this thread when dragon age is not your type of game? go play something else if it isnt your "cup of tea"[/quote]

Only one element I dislike don't me make dislike  the whole game...like I said earlier

[lorderon99999]

craze9 wrote...

Yeah, for a sandbox game.  For Linear games like BG, KOTOR, NWN level scaling is nothing new.  Yes, BG basically had level scaling, because you had to be a certian level before you could attempt the next area of linear progression.

Notice how level scaling never became an issue till Oblivion had it.  That is because for Sand Box games Level scaling was new, and it didn't fit.  But for games like this, level scaling is a very very old mechanic, and has been around long before BG was in development, the only difference is that it wasn't called level scaling, the term didn't even exist, even though the mechanic existed.

You know what level scaling was called before Oblivion?  It was called Linear.

Overall I get your point and agree w/ it, but I think you're gloriously incorrect in saying BG has level scaling. The opponents' level/difficulty is fixed in that game... it does not scale. Sarevok has x hit points regardless of your level when you fight him, and that goes for everything in the game as far as I know. So there is zero level scaling. And it isn't really that linear a game either. You 100% do not have to be a certain LEVEL to "attempt the next area of linear progression," you just have to be able to defeat the opponents there. For players like me who want to seek out the hard fights early on (e.g. kill Drizzt asap) this is a great format, and I miss it. And personally I think it's one reason why BG is so great.

It not one of the reason...it the main reason...story being second

[ChangoLoco69]

lorderon99999 wrote...

Only one element I dislike don't me make dislike  the whole game...like I said earlier

then why keep posting saying that it is ruining your game experience? leave the game as it is and just play how it was supposed to be played. Tactically.

[lorderon99999]

ChangoLoco69 wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

Only one element I dislike don't me make dislike  the whole game...like I said earlier

then why keep posting saying that it is ruining your game experience? leave the game as it is and just play how it was supposed to be played. Tactically.

Maybe you guys are right and I should ignore it

But I will nevr admit level scalling is good for RPG....it actually my only concern with this game....I know eventually there will be a mod for me....and when it comes out I will be rly happy

[Ulicus]

I'd only have a problem with DA's level scaling if the combat system was meant to accurately portray the "reality" of what was going on. Since my warrior can make people fall over just by shouting really hard, however, it's pretty clear that it isn't. *Shrug*

[Bullets McDeath]

You've never seen people do that in real life, Ulicus? Some people are sheltered, I guess...

[Eisberg1977]

craze9 wrote...

Yeah, for a sandbox game.  For Linear games like BG, KOTOR, NWN level scaling is nothing new.  Yes, BG basically had level scaling, because you had to be a certian level before you could attempt the next area of linear progression.

Notice how level scaling never became an issue till Oblivion had it.  That is because for Sand Box games Level scaling was new, and it didn't fit.  But for games like this, level scaling is a very very old mechanic, and has been around long before BG was in development, the only difference is that it wasn't called level scaling, the term didn't even exist, even though the mechanic existed.

You know what level scaling was called before Oblivion?  It was called Linear.

Overall I get your point and agree w/ it, but I think you're gloriously incorrect in saying BG has level scaling. The opponents' level/difficulty is fixed in that game... it does not scale. Sarevok has x hit points regardless of your level when you fight him, and that goes for everything in the game as far as I know. So there is zero level scaling. And it isn't really that linear a game either. You 100% do not have to be a certain LEVEL to "attempt the next area of linear progression," you just have to be able to defeat the opponents there. For players like me who want to seek out the hard fights early on (e.g. kill Drizzt asap) this is a great format, and I miss it. And personally I think it's one reason why BG is so great.

You couldn't be level 1 and defeat Drizzt, you needed to be at a higher level to fight him.  You are right, the levels were fixed, which is why I was saying that you had to be a certian level to be able to go there, meaning you had to be a certian level to actually be able to win the fights.

There was another name for level scaling, and it was done in a different way,  It was called Linear.  Problem with BG, it was possible to out level stuff, and it made the game extremely boring.  The new Level scaling mechanic for these types of game actually was a remedy for long strings of boredom due to lack of challenge.  You had to seek out the hard fights in BG when that happened, but with DAO every fight is a hard fight, and that makes the game exciting and a challenge all of the time.

[Ulicus]

Outlaworacle:
I've never seen a guy throw ten dudes to the ground with a bellow, no. Though I do glow and sparkle with all sorts of fancy colours when I get into a fight, myself. 

Joking aside, I suppose I can admit to having a slight problem with the way the equipment scales in this game. I don't care in the slightest if the random lackey I'm facing off against is level infinity +1... but if he's obviously decked out in silverite, or drakeskin, or whatever when he's meant to be as poor as dirt, I cannot help but tsk.

Dust Town thugs dropping huge piles of silver is silly, too.

Modifié par Ulicus, 29 décembre 2009 - 01:55 .

[Eisberg1977]

http://social.biowar...t/1004/#details Try this though.

[reepneep]

God, does no one have any reading comprehension skills? The OP is complaining about the logical problem of a few random street thugs being as great a threat to the party as a four story tall firebreathing lizard. The only thing you can say to this is 'Its a game, of course it's supposed to get harder as you go along'. That just metagaming logic, and the OP wishes this weren't the case. He's asking if it really make sense that our group of battle-hardened PCs is seriously challenged by a a group of glorified cutpurses. It doesn't unless you're subscribing to the theory that because it's a game, every opponent should be formidable. It makes just as much sense as every bandit in Tamriel suddenly finding sets of Daedric armor because the PC has reached the proper level.

Its like expecting a squad of commandos who spent the last ten years fighting in guerilla warfare in various third world hellholes to be seriously challenged by a group of gangbangers with glocks in south LA.

OP doesn't dislike level scaling because it makes the game too hard (he said he plays on nightmare without a healing mage for chrissake), he dislikes it because of the logical problems it creates.

These inconsistancies do damage the believability of the world. I happen to think it's worth it to make every fight entertainingly difficult, but its still a problem.

Modifié par reepneep, 29 décembre 2009 - 02:00 .

[Panurge Pantagruel]

Well, I think I get what you're saying there. It is a little bit frustrating to find a street thug wearing a Protection ring +3 or a gnoll wearing armor +4 (Baldur's Gate flashbacks). That makes the game feel like it is all depending on you and your party and not a world that would go on after you are dead like pincushion of arrows on some forgotten road near Beregost. Something like: "hey, if they have this power now, how could I survive similar foes when I was at level 2, right?" "where did they get those weapons and "stuffes", and why didn't they have them before?".
But, I don't think that this "break the immersion" though.

Just bear with me for a moment: imagine yourself battling small groups of level 1 darkspawn when you and your party are at level 20... yep, it will be a carnage, and you will have fun dispatching the first groups but, after the 4th or 5th perhaps you would stop managing your party cause it is not really necessary - I mean, its not like they can kill you... its like a pack of wolfs fighting with house cats - and you could just watch. Soon you would be bored to death and itching to fight some major character, and if you happened to get your ass kicked while at it, it would be just a matter of waiting - leveling up somewhere else - and coming back latter to exterminate the now-low-level foe.

So, the game designers and developers are hard pressed to balance the challenge, the fun and the "logic" (story-wise, or immersion-wise if you must) on each confrontation.  Well, sometimes I think it could be done better... but I don't really know how.

Perhaps making the "baddies" level up allong with you but droping very little high level equipment, like in Dragon Age, or droping a lot of infuriating ebony and glass things, like in Oblivion (which is also a great game nevertheless).

Anyway, unless you have a better idea to suggest the Bioware team, I think theres not much to be done but to "endure" and forgive that logical problem for now. Level scaling just kills the game for you if you let it.

Dragon Age is not a perfect game, but its the very best RPG I have ever played.

Modifié par Panurge Pantagruel, 29 décembre 2009 - 02:09 .

[DragonRageGT]

Thanatos45 wrote...

Disagreed. Most of the powerful stuff I get doesn't come from stores but was scraped off my enemies' corpses after rather hard fights (Aodh/Bloodline/Vanguard/Juggernaut plate set etc. etc.). Yes, there is some really good stuff for sale but often I find it too expensive to even consider (a weapon for 150 sovereigns... that's more than I spent in my entire first playthrough).

When you play a Rogue, that weapon will become your Desire Demon! I spent 1900g in one recent run... Rogues steal/bluff/cheat/assassinate so they can afford the awesome Rogue items around... hehe... I don't think I bought one single item for my 2hander except one 80+g amulet. I spent some 350g on 3 pieces of Rogue's gear and they're awesome!


And back to OP, [We're now talking about "Immersion"!]
The english language - A Bit of Fry and Laurie


As defined by Merriam-Webster, it is "absorbing involvement" in the entry that applies to a CRPG, imho.

Now, if you can't feel that in DA:O, search for a thread with topic "Who cried at the end?" and tell that whole bunch of people, and it is a big bunch, that they are all wrong because the game has no immersion, how could they have such absorbing involvement with their chars, their companions, the story, the adventure, the combat, the epic feeling it gives (when you Learned how to Play!), the romances and the actual feelings they may arise, the hawt parties at the Pearl.

Sorry to say but again, my chars never die or have any problems whatsoever with a bunch of lousy thugs, no matter what they wear, their skill, nothing... I, or rather, We Overcome! (and kick some serious azz in the process). And I'm no better player than the next guy who made the minimum effort and L2P too. Actually there are quite better players than myself and their movies are inspiration for my own.

So if you're having problems with that and claim you're not complaining about difficulty... you really suck at the game and built a wimpy char... I wonder how you managed to kill a Dragron... Which Dragon was it? There are 3 Dragons... Major, High and regular one... I'd love to check your character stats but you haven't registered... feel free to check mine, if you can.

You'd be better off searching for immersion in a MMO, while shouting "LFG"!

[Sidney]

Panurge Pantagruel wrote...

So, the game designers and developers are hard pressed to balance the challenge, the fun and the "logic" (story-wise, or immersion-wise if you must) on each confrontation.  Well, sometimes I think it could be done better... but I don't really know how.

Anyway, unless you have a better idea to suggest the Bioware team, I think theres not much to be done but to "endure" and forgive that logical problem for now. Level scaling just kills the game for you if you let it.

I think you can solve some of this by a few methods:

1. Toss in some non-scaling fights. When I'm in Arl Howe's basement some of those guys should be spares. I do feel a bit more "heroic" when I can whip up on guards, thugs and bandits. Just a handful of those will let you feel the massive power your characters have rightfully earned.

2. Ratchet down the superpowers for "normal" foes.  It is hard to feel special when then average Grenlock can "Scattershot". Reserve those powers for the Yellow and Orange foes.

3. Increase the # of special people. This works in several places but you can force multiply your foes by tossing a mage in amonst all those "guards". Have 10 guards but instead of 10 super-guards get 6 regular guards, 3 sergeants and one mage. I feel powerful whipping up on the normals and I get the challenge from the yellows and oranges.

In the end wading though waves of worthless foes stinks but you've earned the right to also feel like your "hero" os the only one who can save the world for a reason.

[DragonRageGT]

lorderon99999 wrote...

Whailor wrote...

I didn't mind leveled opponents in Oblivion. Neither in Fallout 3. Especially not in DAO. I still kill them all, no matter whether I am the "Hero of Kvatch", the "Vault Dweller" or the "Grey Warden". Doesn't break immersion in any way. They attack, I kill them, I get the XP and the loot and walk away richer and more powerful. No problem.

You are one of the rare my friend! Because Betshada themself said they did a mistake with level scalling

I was a regular in Bethesda's forums and I never saw any comment like that from the devs. Also, it that was true, surely that would be an official patch dealing with that, not player made mods.

You did say something about a bunch of thugs killing your hero (?) and how ridiculous it was since he had killed a Dragon... he killed a Dragon thus nothing can kill him... that, my friend, as it has been pointed out in this Forum already by someone like me replying to someone like you, is a known Fallacy... The Straw Man

[Farrrongoth]

RageGT wrote...

Thanatos45 wrote...

Disagreed. Most of the powerful stuff I get doesn't come from stores but was scraped off my enemies' corpses after rather hard fights (Aodh/Bloodline/Vanguard/Juggernaut plate set etc. etc.). Yes, there is some really good stuff for sale but often I find it too expensive to even consider (a weapon for 150 sovereigns... that's more than I spent in my entire first playthrough).

When you play a Rogue, that weapon will become your Desire Demon! I spent 1900g in one recent run... Rogues steal/bluff/cheat/assassinate so they can afford the awesome Rogue items around... hehe... I don't think I bought one single item for my 2hander except one 80+g amulet. I spent some 350g on 3 pieces of Rogue's gear and they're awesome!


And back to OP, [We're now talking about "Immersion"!]
The english language - A Bit of Fry and Laurie


As defined by Merriam-Webster, it is "absorbing involvement" in the entry that applies to a CRPG, imho.

Now, if you can't feel that in DA:O, search for a thread with topic "Who cried at the end?" and tell that whole bunch of people, and it is a big bunch, that they are all wrong because the game has no immersion, how could they have such absorbing involvement with their chars, their companions, the story, the adventure, the combat, the epic feeling it gives (when you Learned how to Play!), the romances and the actual feelings they may arise, the hawt parties at the Pearl.

Sorry to say but again, my chars never die or have any problems whatsoever with a bunch of lousy thugs, no matter what they wear, their skill, nothing... I, or rather, We Overcome! (and kick some serious azz in the process). And I'm no better player than the next guy who made the minimum effort and L2P too. Actually there are quite better players than myself and their movies are inspiration for my own.

So if you're having problems with that and claim you're not complaining about difficulty... you really suck at the game and built a wimpy char... I wonder how you managed to kill a Dragron... Which Dragon was it? There are 3 Dragons... Major, High and regular one... I'd love to check your character stats but you haven't registered... feel free to check mine, if you can.

You'd be better off searching for immersion in a MMO, while shouting "LFG"!

Nothing much to say I just totally agree with RageGT

I'd like to add I defeated the Whatever demon it was in the mage tower the one that tranforms five times on nightmare mode without using potions with my brothers character build because he couldn't only time I used that char.

I loved it was a awesome I might add all but morrigan died on the last leg and she finished the bugger

Yea me

[VeeVito]

Sidney wrote...

Panurge Pantagruel wrote...

So, the game designers and developers are hard pressed to balance the challenge, the fun and the "logic" (story-wise, or immersion-wise if you must) on each confrontation.  Well, sometimes I think it could be done better... but I don't really know how.

Anyway, unless you have a better idea to suggest the Bioware team, I think theres not much to be done but to "endure" and forgive that logical problem for now. Level scaling just kills the game for you if you let it.

I think you can solve some of this by a few methods:

1. Toss in some non-scaling fights. When I'm in Arl Howe's basement some of those guys should be spares. I do feel a bit more "heroic" when I can whip up on guards, thugs and bandits. Just a handful of those will let you feel the massive power your characters have rightfully earned.

2. Ratchet down the superpowers for "normal" foes.  It is hard to feel special when then average Grenlock can "Scattershot". Reserve those powers for the Yellow and Orange foes.

3. Increase the # of special people. This works in several places but you can force multiply your foes by tossing a mage in amonst all those "guards". Have 10 guards but instead of 10 super-guards get 6 regular guards, 3 sergeants and one mage. I feel powerful whipping up on the normals and I get the challenge from the yellows and oranges.

In the end wading though waves of worthless foes stinks but you've earned the right to also feel like your "hero" os the only one who can save the world for a reason.

That's just it though, I never got the impression that your character is a hero of any sort, at least not in what his combat capabilities are... Only what he's trying to do. He's just a kid who got recruited into a group of soldiers.(at least in the human origin). I was never under the impression that the story set up the PC as some kind of super fighter sent to save the world. Just someone who was asked to help defend against the blight as best he could.

So, from my point of view anyway, I don't see the let down of not feeling like a hero since the story never really sets it up that way, at least so far in the parts i've played.

Why shouldn't the thugs be a formidable foe, when really the PC could just as soon have become one of them instead of joining the wardens? Aside from the ritual that lets him sense the enemy, the PC is just like any common thug in terms of combat capability.