444 réponses à ce sujet

[IDarko]

lorderon99999 wrote...

Look....a groupe of thug should not be able to put me down when I killed a dragon 5min earlier...

why not? maybe those thugs practiced for years. maybe they also have super powers, but they didn't become a hero like you. or maybe ur  r just tired coz u just fought a dragon =D

But serious.. I hate lvl scaling. I'm one of those people who likes to lvl hard and then one shot stuff. like all those kids right? no likes alot! ^^

[Zethell]

Nothing wrong with level scaling..

I like a challenge, that's why i play games..



I play all games on the hardest difficulty, and even on hardcore if i can (1 death, and that's it.)

[Sidney]

VeeVito wrote...

So, from my point of view anyway, I don't see the let down of not feeling like a hero since the story never really sets it up that way, at least so far in the parts i've played.

Why shouldn't the thugs be a formidable foe, when really the PC could just as soon have become one of them instead of joining the wardens? Aside from the ritual that lets him sense the enemy, the PC is just like any common thug in terms of combat capability.

Your combat capabilities have clearly evolved since the start of the game. Call it a hero, a veteran soldier,  a special forces operator or whatever. You've reached a state that has extended beyond your initial ability. That change can't be masked so either you were the equivilent of a newborn child at the start of the game (and why duncan chose you is beyond anyone's belief) or you were an above average "normal" dude that is getting better,

At some point in the game you kill dragons. Now, if your claim is that your average band of thugs and bandits should/could be slaying dragons in this world then you are right otherwise you are something "special" and you'd like to at least feel a taste of that specialness at some point.

[DragonRageGT]

reepneep wrote...

God, does no one have any reading comprehension skills? The OP is complaining about the logical problem of a few random street thugs being as great a threat to the party as a four story tall firebreathing lizard. The only thing you can say to this is 'Its a game, of course it's supposed to get harder as you go along'. That just metagaming logic, and the OP wishes this weren't the case. He's asking if it really make sense that our group of battle-hardened PCs is seriously challenged by a a group of glorified cutpurses. It doesn't unless you're subscribing to the theory that because it's a game, every opponent should be formidable. It makes just as much sense as every bandit in Tamriel suddenly finding sets of Daedric armor because the PC has reached the proper level.

Its like expecting a squad of commandos who spent the last ten years fighting in guerilla warfare in various third world hellholes to be seriously challenged by a group of gangbangers with glocks in south LA.

OP doesn't dislike level scaling because it makes the game too hard (he said he plays on nightmare without a healing mage for chrissake), he dislikes it because of the logical problems it creates.

These inconsistancies do damage the believability of the world. I happen to think it's worth it to make every fight entertainingly difficult, but its still a problem.

The only instance when what you say happens is when the player is new to the game and doesn't know how to build a char or a party. Seriously now, anyone having problems with anything in this game after a full run, has some serious learning deficit thing. My Nightmare run was so easy compared to my first in Hard mode that I actually came to the forums and asked it that was normal!

Old but true: Created about 1 month ago

http://social.biowar.../9/index/313167

[VeeVito]

Sidney wrote...

VeeVito wrote...

So, from my point of view anyway, I don't see the let down of not feeling like a hero since the story never really sets it up that way, at least so far in the parts i've played.

Why shouldn't the thugs be a formidable foe, when really the PC could just as soon have become one of them instead of joining the wardens? Aside from the ritual that lets him sense the enemy, the PC is just like any common thug in terms of combat capability.

Your combat capabilities have clearly evolved since the start of the game. Call it a hero, a veteran soldier,  a special forces operator or whatever. You've reached a state that has extended beyond your initial ability. That change can't be masked so either you were the equivilent of a newborn child at the start of the game (and why duncan chose you is beyond anyone's belief) or you were an above average "normal" dude that is getting better,

At some point in the game you kill dragons. Now, if your claim is that your average band of thugs and bandits should/could be slaying dragons in this world then you are right otherwise you are something "special" and you'd like to at least feel a taste of that specialness at some point.

I understand what you are saying. I just don't think that just because your party can kill a dragon automatically means that a band of 8-10 thugs waiting in ambush should be a pushover or a trivial "side bar" game encounter.The fact that your PC evolves to the point where he can take on that many enemies and win does give a taste of more power, or more precisely, a sense of better leadership he/she's learned. Should that thug victory come easier? That's all personal opinion.

Generally speaking the thugs are only a problem when they are in large numbers, as it would be even for a seasoned dragon killer.

After you get a feel for the game, then the taste of heroic-ness comes. Which kind of correlates with the in game PC's power. By the time you are in the part of the game where you feel like your PC should be whipping butt, you also have gotten a feel for how to play the game and that translates to in game power as well. So it's like as you, the player, get better, so does your in game persona. If that makes sense..

[Tirigon]

The one thing I dont understand is why you keep complaining about DAO while, at the same time, repeating that´s a great game and very funny and of course there is no problem with the difficulty, and in short its great, but it sucks...

Seems a little confused, doesnt it?

[Sidney]

VeeVito wrote...

I understand what you are saying. I just don't think that just because your party can kill a dragon automatically means that a band of 8-10 thugs waiting in ambush should be a pushover or a trivial "side bar" game encounter.The fact that your PC evolves to the point where he can take on that many enemies and win does give a taste of more power, or more precisely, a sense of better leadership he/she's learned. Should that thug victory come easier? That's all personal opinion.

We're not that far apart. You are right, there should be lethal danger in almost every fight. Thugs can kill people even heros.

I don't want the encounter with the thugs to be easy but I want some of the thugs to be easier. Thugs, bandits whatever like the Wardens will have their Duncans and their Allistairs. That is the feel I want from fights - there are some "normal" people out there surrounding some extraordinary people. My problem is when you have a uniform rush of "white" guards and bandits and they are all murder on wheels to off I lose the feel of being special. It is about altering the mix of the strengths of the foes that would most serve my ends.

[Sylixe]

You lost me at the point you thought the game was hard. Maybe learn some tactics or at the very least setup your party tactics so they can show you how to win. It's not like you can't set them and watch the game like it's a movie and win everytime.

[Celuwen]

CJohnJones wrote...

lorderon99999 wrote...

CJohnJones wrote...

Say, you do realize that, in real life, wolves are powerful creatures who can kill people. A pack of wolves is actually tougher than a skilled human warrior.

So how come we can kill dragons and giant beasts....even if dragons don't exsist I think it pretty easy to say that if it would it would be able to kill 100000000 wolves.....so why in hell can we take down a dragon and also have problems with a 10 pack wolf!

This is a fantasy game...and an RPG...we need progression

Dude, that's like a gigawolf of claws and teeth. I defy even a dragon to handle a whole gigawolf.

You owe me a new monitor, or at least a cloth to clean the water I just spat out at mine laughing at your comment. Cheers for the chuckles!

[NotMyName13]

Jesus, with the exception of 2 or 3 people, most of you miss the OP's point completed(I'm looking at you especially Rage).

THE OP DOES NOT THINK DIFFICULTY IS THE PROBLEM.

THE LEVEL SCALING IMPLEMENTATION WITH REGARDS TO REGULAR MOB IS.

AT A CERTAIN LEVEL, AN ENCOUNTER WITH NORMAL WHITE MOBS(THUGS/GENLOCKS) SHOULD NOT BE AS DIFFICULT AS A LEGENDARY HIGH DRAGON.

--->PROBLEM: YOU ARE LEVEL 18 AND A GROUP OF NORMAL THUG/GENLOCK ETC. POSES THE SAME CHALLENGE AS A LEGENDARY HIGH DRAGON.

--->POSSIBLE SOLUTION: AT CERTAIN UPPER LEVELS(5-10, 10-15...) CHANGE THE MOBS (THUG/GENLOCK ETC) TO MORE ELITE MOBS(ELITE ASSASSINS/SUPER MUTANT GENLOCKS ETC) THAT WAY YOU STILL GET THE CHALLENGE BUT KNOW THAT YOUR STRUGGLE WAS DUE TO THE EPICNESS OF THE MOB, NOT SOME RABBLE THAT YOU COULD HAVE FACED AT LEVEL 8.

NOT EASIER, BUT COULD BE AS EASY AS RENAMING THE MOBS AT HIGHER LEVELS. UNDERSTAND?

Does this shed any light? Or you all just going to persist to "lol at OP its easy enough as it is", "OP learn 2 play" BS.

Modifié par NotMyName13, 29 décembre 2009 - 04:04 .

[vicariouscheese]

RageGT wrote...

reepneep wrote...

God, does no one have any reading comprehension skills? The OP is complaining about the logical problem of a few random street thugs being as great a threat to the party as a four story tall firebreathing lizard. The only thing you can say to this is 'Its a game, of course it's supposed to get harder as you go along'. That just metagaming logic, and the OP wishes this weren't the case. He's asking if it really make sense that our group of battle-hardened PCs is seriously challenged by a a group of glorified cutpurses. It doesn't unless you're subscribing to the theory that because it's a game, every opponent should be formidable. It makes just as much sense as every bandit in Tamriel suddenly finding sets of Daedric armor because the PC has reached the proper level.

Its like expecting a squad of commandos who spent the last ten years fighting in guerilla warfare in various third world hellholes to be seriously challenged by a group of gangbangers with glocks in south LA.

OP doesn't dislike level scaling because it makes the game too hard (he said he plays on nightmare without a healing mage for chrissake), he dislikes it because of the logical problems it creates.

These inconsistancies do damage the believability of the world. I happen to think it's worth it to make every fight entertainingly difficult, but its still a problem.

The only instance when what you say happens is when the player is new to the game and doesn't know how to build a char or a party. Seriously now, anyone having problems with anything in this game after a full run, has some serious learning deficit thing. My Nightmare run was so easy compared to my first in Hard mode that I actually came to the forums and asked it that was normal!

Old but true: Created about 1 month ago

http://social.biowar.../9/index/313167

the only problem with your argument is that nightmare is barely any different than hard.  id link you to the difficulty chart, but the missing manual seems broken right now.  the difference between normal -> nightmare is like enemies to 5% more dmg, you do 5% less, similar small numbers.  the jump from easy to normal, however, is *massive*.  its like easy you heal for 3 times as much, do double damage, no friendly fire, enemies have no resists, etc.  making up exaggerated numbers, but seriously the jump from easy to normal is huge while normal to nightmare is maybe a quarter of the jump.

[Celuwen]

I very much disliked the scaling in Oblivion, but I haven't actually noticed it much in this game apart from a couple of instances. The first was those pesky wolves who ripped my party apart the first time I met them (where as now I can finish them off without thinking about it, as I've learned more about tactics and the combat overall). The other was those bandits we've been mentioning.



I don't usually like scaling, but I think overall it's been done well in this game. Perhaps it needs a bit more tweaking, but I don't think it's broken or ruins the game in any way.

[MGeezer]

lorderon99999 wrote...

MGeezer wrote...

As far as i am concerned the problem is not level-scaling, it is not even learning to play. it is simple fact that on two paythroughs the hardest thing in the entire game has been a bandit ambush and thugs in Denerim--Dragons--beat'em;  Revenants--yep; a gazillion bosses--clobered 'em.

something is hopelessly off when the i can win the final battle with no reloads, beat every boss in the game, and remember the most difficult fights in the game as thugs and bandits. Tthis is just all wrong, from every viewpoint. I am not even objecting to the difficulty, I am saying labels these toughest fights in the game differently--say Loghain's elite assassins, or the elite dark spawn or something other than bandits and thugs!!!!!!

I really, really, really hate remembering my toughest fights in every game as not bosses and final battles but frigging thugs and bandits!!!!!

You say th problem is not level scalling...but you are actually talking about a problem that is related at 90% to level scalling

Actually--no.  i think you are just wrong here.

I think the level scaling works very, very well.  No matter what order i take them in, the major boss battles are fun and challenging.

Throughout the game, there  are easy opponents to remind me that I have come a long way since I started, so I can see I have improved.  For example. in the final battle (no spoilers) some previously tough foes go down like ten pins in a bowling alley--hey we have come a long way from when these were tough. On the whole, i think the level scaling works.

My problem is not level scaling but that the toughest battles in the game are against foes who are utterly unimportant in the larger scheme of things, and not against foes who are either important to the plot or epic foes (like revenants or dragons).  I think this is probably the  worst mistake in what I think is the game of the decade.

Modifié par MGeezer, 29 décembre 2009 - 04:30 .

[Farrrongoth]

Well it seems the origin arguments of this forum is perception you want to look like hero you slayed a dragon thats four against one you overcame the challlenge thanks to numbers and tactics and power and luck the only bandits I've ever had a problem with in this game was a set of bandits in denerim and that was cos there were fourty of them give or take a few, the fact it takes fourty of them to beat does not belittle the fact you slaughtered a dragon. This might not be the one your talking about but there is a difference in power between a single bandit and a single dragon but when you scale up number of bandits it just as much a challenge as a single dragon, the method of victory is just different (That's not to say there is only one method).

Modifié par Farrrongoth, 29 décembre 2009 - 04:49 .

[Farrrongoth]

This is RageGT last post

Lol the battle I posted earlier was my first attempt at Nightmare I'd played normal before then

[Celuwen]

lorderon99999 wrote...

XOGHunter246 wrote...

Where there a will there way nothing impossible in games there always some way to get the job done. It all about using correct tactics if you find yourself being killed by scatter shot a lot then try another tactic. I got killed by them thugs few times on my first time playing DAO till I found a tactic that works effectively. I'm the type to not let few deaths make me think why did they do this make them scale with me.
You say difficulty isn't a issue but your saying level scaling is isn't that part of the difficulty? If you can still beat them then why complain about level scaling?

The only part level scalling plays in diff is that the challenges is constent...every single fight...which is not my cup of tee whn playing RPG...I want some progression...not bcome UBER but feel more powerful not only more  resourceful

I think what people are saying - correct me if I'm wrong - is that you do become more powerful and resourceful as you play, but that it's you the player, rather than your PC who grows the most. You learn new tactics, new solutions. The progression is there in game with story and items and skills, but also the challenge is still there, as you are forced to think about new ways of doing things. 

When I first started playing, I died, a lot. I still do at times if I become slightly blasé about the whole affair and I like that. I like the challenge. 

I do agree with you that sometimes scaling can be horrible, and I understand your point that a Dragon Killer should be able to wipe the floor with bandits. But it makes sense in this game. Your power is over the darkspawn, you are a Grey Warden. Defeating a dragon is probably easier for you than for the random heroic Knight from Redcliffe, but it doesn't mean that every other 'bad guy' you meet should be easy by comparison. 

Scaling can be truly dire if done badly, but scaling in itself is not wrong. I believe it works for DA:O

[Farrrongoth]

Oh, by the end... Spoiler

You one hit kill the majority of the darkspawn not powerful my %^&#

Oh another point if they are bandit there majority class or they are likely to have rogues allow to flank you your buggered basically

Modifié par Farrrongoth, 29 décembre 2009 - 04:59 .

[reepneep]

RageGT wrote...

reepneep wrote...

God, does no one have any reading comprehension skills? The OP is complaining about the logical problem of a few random street thugs being as great a threat to the party as a four story tall firebreathing lizard. The only thing you can say to this is 'Its a game, of course it's supposed to get harder as you go along'. That just metagaming logic, and the OP wishes this weren't the case. He's asking if it really make sense that our group of battle-hardened PCs is seriously challenged by a a group of glorified cutpurses. It doesn't unless you're subscribing to the theory that because it's a game, every opponent should be formidable. It makes just as much sense as every bandit in Tamriel suddenly finding sets of Daedric armor because the PC has reached the proper level.

Its like expecting a squad of commandos who spent the last ten years fighting in guerilla warfare in various third world hellholes to be seriously challenged by a group of gangbangers with glocks in south LA.

OP doesn't dislike level scaling because it makes the game too hard (he said he plays on nightmare without a healing mage for chrissake), he dislikes it because of the logical problems it creates.

These inconsistancies do damage the believability of the world. I happen to think it's worth it to make every fight entertainingly difficult, but its still a problem.

The only instance when what you say happens is when the player is new to the game and doesn't know how to build a char or a party. Seriously now, anyone having problems with anything in this game after a full run, has some serious learning deficit thing. My Nightmare run was so easy compared to my first in Hard mode that I actually came to the forums and asked it that was normal!

Old but true: Created about 1 month ago

http://social.biowar.../9/index/313167

WTF?

Reading comprehention:  u no haz it

[DragonRageGT]

Farrrongoth wrote...

This is RageGT last post
Lol the battle I posted earlier was my first attempt at Nightmare I'd played normal before then

wat?

NotMyName13 wrote...

Jesus, with the exception of 2 or 3 people, most of you miss the OP's point completed(I'm looking at you especially Rage).

THE OP DOES NOT THINK DIFFICULTY IS THE PROBLEM.

THE LEVEL SCALING IMPLEMENTATION WITH REGARDS TO REGULAR MOB IS.

AT A CERTAIN LEVEL, AN ENCOUNTER WITH NORMAL WHITE MOBS(THUGS/GENLOCKS) SHOULD NOT BE AS DIFFICULT AS A LEGENDARY HIGH DRAGON.

--->PROBLEM: YOU ARE LEVEL 18 AND A GROUP OF NORMAL THUG/GENLOCK ETC. POSES THE SAME CHALLENGE AS A LEGENDARY HIGH DRAGON.

--->POSSIBLE SOLUTION: AT CERTAIN UPPER LEVELS(5-10, 10-15...) CHANGE THE MOBS (THUG/GENLOCK ETC) TO MORE ELITE MOBS(ELITE ASSASSINS/SUPER MUTANT GENLOCKS ETC) THAT WAY YOU STILL GET THE CHALLENGE BUT KNOW THAT YOUR STRUGGLE WAS DUE TO THE EPICNESS OF THE MOB, NOT SOME RABBLE THAT YOU COULD HAVE FACED AT LEVEL 8.

NOT EASIER, BUT COULD BE AS EASY AS RENAMING THE MOBS AT HIGHER LEVELS. UNDERSTAND?

Does this shed any light? Or you all just going to persist to "lol at OP its easy enough as it is", "OP learn 2 play" BS.

LOL... I love this...  "The op does not think the difficulty is the problem"...  "but an encounter with "white" mobs should not be AS DIFFICULT AS a legendary High Dragon".... do you realize the contradiction or is it just me?

In any case, no encounter with no mobs are as difficult as a major boss battle... if someone thinks so it is clearly to me that one doesn't know how to play... want some visual on that? here... it is all Nightmare... watch them both and see it they are at the same difficulty... Note that they were both done at the same level!

Dragon Battle


A few randon encounters with lots of mobs...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zngzB5sAtU

There are more both uploaded and some I haven't uploaded... I have the bandits in Denerim with that lvl 20 party... not sure if uploaded or not... but believe me... there are no encounter, be it with bandits, wolves, darkspawn, mercenaries, whatever, that comes even close to the challenge of a major boss...   unless you are displicent and take it for granted that you should win easily... it is a matter of L2P indeed... sorry.

[Kimberly Shaw]

I have a much bigger problem with the item scaling in this game than the npc scaling (I hate finding a codex unique item early and having it "gimped" in tier level because I found it earlier than I should have...unqiue items should be hard coded to a certain tier no matter what level you find them at!!!).



But, that said, there is a point about how common street thugs having access to top tier talents that in theory only a master armsman should have. The encounters should scale by having the npcs themselves change (abominations, blood mages, etc instead of thugs) or by having more of the weaker enemies, rather than inexplicably have thugs be level 20 with access to tons of abilities and having them be stronger than the best fighters in Ferelden. It is a bit immersion breaking to have the common street thugs be decked out and stronger than the best of the best...why don't they just go kill the darkspawn themselves?

[Farrrongoth]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

I have a much bigger problem with the item scaling in this game than the npc scaling (I hate finding a codex unique item early and having it "gimped" in tier level because I found it earlier than I should have...unqiue items should be hard coded to a certain tier no matter what level you find them at!!!).

But, that said, there is a point about how common street thugs having access to top tier talents that in theory only a master armsman should have. The encounters should scale by having the npcs themselves change (abominations, blood mages, etc instead of thugs) or by having more of the weaker enemies, rather than inexplicably have thugs be level 20 with access to tons of abilities and having them be stronger than the best fighters in Ferelden. It is a bit immersion breaking to have the common street thugs be decked out and stronger than the best of the best...why don't they just go kill the darkspawn themselves?

I never saw bandit above lvl 17

[NotMyName13]

RageGT wrote...

LOL... I love this...  "The op does not think the difficulty is the problem"...  "but an encounter with "white" mobs should not be AS DIFFICULT AS a legendary High Dragon".... do you realize the contradiction or is it just me?

Learn to comprend the whole post in context not just what you choose to single out. NOTHING IN THIS GAME IS DIFFICULT, EVEN ON NIGHTMARE. No contradiction there. Next.

Modifié par NotMyName13, 29 décembre 2009 - 05:02 .

[Farrrongoth]

[quote]RageGT wrote...

[quote]Farrrongoth wrote...

This is RageGT last post
Lol the battle I posted earlier was my first attempt at Nightmare I'd played normal before then[/quote]

wat?
[/quote]
[/quote]

I was just agreeing with u again

Modifié par Farrrongoth, 29 décembre 2009 - 05:02 .

[DragonRageGT]

reepneep wrote...

RageGT wrote...

reepneep wrote...

God, does no one have any reading comprehension skills? The OP is complaining about the logical problem of a few random street thugs being as great a threat to the party as a four story tall firebreathing lizard.

The only instance when what you say happens is when the player is new to the game and doesn't know how to build a char or a party. Seriously now, anyone having problems with anything in this game after a full run, has some serious learning deficit thing. My Nightmare run was so easy compared to my first in Hard mode that I actually came to the forums and asked it that was normal!

Old but true: Created about 1 month ago

http://social.biowar.../9/index/313167

WTF?

Reading comprehention:  u no haz it

English is not my language and it seems I comprehend it better than some native?
"The logical problem of a few random street thugs being as great a threat to the party as a four story tall firebreathing lizard" only happens to NOOBS!

[NotMyName13]

reepneep wrote...

RageGT wrote...

reepneep wrote...

God, does no one have any reading comprehension skills? The OP is complaining about the logical problem of a few random street thugs being as great a threat to the party as a four story tall firebreathing lizard. The only thing you can say to this is 'Its a game, of course it's supposed to get harder as you go along'. That just metagaming logic, and the OP wishes this weren't the case. He's asking if it really make sense that our group of battle-hardened PCs is seriously challenged by a a group of glorified cutpurses. It doesn't unless you're subscribing to the theory that because it's a game, every opponent should be formidable. It makes just as much sense as every bandit in Tamriel suddenly finding sets of Daedric armor because the PC has reached the proper level.

Its like expecting a squad of commandos who spent the last ten years fighting in guerilla warfare in various third world hellholes to be seriously challenged by a group of gangbangers with glocks in south LA.

OP doesn't dislike level scaling because it makes the game too hard (he said he plays on nightmare without a healing mage for chrissake), he dislikes it because of the logical problems it creates.

These inconsistancies do damage the believability of the world. I happen to think it's worth it to make every fight entertainingly difficult, but its still a problem.

The only instance when what you say happens is when the player is new to the game and doesn't know how to build a char or a party. Seriously now, anyone having problems with anything in this game after a full run, has some serious learning deficit thing. My Nightmare run was so easy compared to my first in Hard mode that I actually came to the forums and asked it that was normal!

Old but true: Created about 1 month ago

http://social.biowar.../9/index/313167

WTF?

Reading comprehention:  u no haz it

+1 QFT. Seems like a selecitve reader that Rage.