654 réponses à ce sujet

[Bolo Xia]

lol you wanna see OP on bronze and silver... go with grenades and leave the kroguard on the curb.

[joker_jack]

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

JiceDuresh wrote...

Kroguard is about as boring as they come for simpleton classes. Sentinels are suposed to be tanks and can't take even a 3rd of the punishment the kroguard does. That's proof enough for me that he fills his role far more proficiently than thoes who are actaully suposed to be in it. Paried against geth with a reegers and you might as well make the lobby private cause you don't actaully need a team at that point on any difficulty.

I'm with the OP on this one. Changes are needed, I've yet to see a kroguard that wasn't just a Reegers platform that never dies, while the Krogan Sentinel and Krogan Soilder only wish they could take the same amount of punishment, one of them actaully part of the tank class. But more importantly, he just needs to be something other than a moble weapons platform, last time I saw Barrier triggerd or a carnage go out, it was the one time I used a krogaurd for the hell of it, not really a good class design when 2/3rds of his abililities are never used.

finally, a sensible post lol:lol:

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. That's basic debating.

You
are making the claim that Kroguards are overpowered and need to be 
nerfed. That's the claim you made in the OP, and it's the claim you keep
repeating over and over. Thus far, you've done nothing to actually 
prove this. The burden of proof is not on people to disprove your 
claims, it's on you to prove them. That's how debates work.

That
maybe how it works in your society, but where im from people have to 
disprove something before saying it is wrong, which has not been done 
here yet.

http://en.wikipedia....Russells_teapot

I.E. Proving a negative

Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic teapot, is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others...

that is based upon religious discussion though according to the wiki, which has no place in a Kroguard viability debate.

OP you haven't played this game for very long which shows in your manifest. We all see your an idiot (not the 1st or last). For one sentinals were never ment to be tanks. They are a jack of all trades class, nothing more. 

Kroguards were always ment to be a tank class from day one. Same with the design of the destroyer. Obivously you don't get how this game is played. 
*reported again for spam

[Lord_Dweedle]

joker_jack wrote...

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

JiceDuresh wrote...

Kroguard is about as boring as they come for simpleton classes. Sentinels are suposed to be tanks and can't take even a 3rd of the punishment the kroguard does. That's proof enough for me that he fills his role far more proficiently than thoes who are actaully suposed to be in it. Paried against geth with a reegers and you might as well make the lobby private cause you don't actaully need a team at that point on any difficulty.

I'm with the OP on this one. Changes are needed, I've yet to see a kroguard that wasn't just a Reegers platform that never dies, while the Krogan Sentinel and Krogan Soilder only wish they could take the same amount of punishment, one of them actaully part of the tank class. But more importantly, he just needs to be something other than a moble weapons platform, last time I saw Barrier triggerd or a carnage go out, it was the one time I used a krogaurd for the hell of it, not really a good class design when 2/3rds of his abililities are never used.

finally, a sensible post lol:lol:

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. That's basic debating.

You
are making the claim that Kroguards are overpowered and need to be 
nerfed. That's the claim you made in the OP, and it's the claim you keep
repeating over and over. Thus far, you've done nothing to actually 
prove this. The burden of proof is not on people to disprove your 
claims, it's on you to prove them. That's how debates work.

That
maybe how it works in your society, but where im from people have to 
disprove something before saying it is wrong, which has not been done 
here yet.

http://en.wikipedia....Russells_teapot

I.E. Proving a negative

Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic teapot, is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others...

that is based upon religious discussion though according to the wiki, which has no place in a Kroguard viability debate.

OP you haven't played this game for very long which shows in your manifest. We all see your an idiot (not the 1st or last). For one sentinals were never ment to be tanks. They are a jack of all trades class, nothing more. 

Kroguards were always ment to be a tank class from day one. Same with the design of the destroyer. Obivously you don't get how this game is played. 
*reported again for spam

so im an idiot then? what gives you the right to say this?

very nasty person to just call someone an idiot, I have not insulted anyone here, yet people seem to feel the need to do so to me

I will not partake in a flame war due to petty insults 

Modifié par Lord_Dweedle, 07 octobre 2012 - 10:34 .

[tonydaazntiger319]

Just a few questions I have

1. How long have you actually been playing the multiplayer? This is not to call you a noob or anything, just to gauge your actual play experience.

2. Have you played as the kroguard? If so, did you enjoy playing as him?

3. Have you consider that each time you've played with a kroguard, that it wasn't the character but the skill of the player? I honestly believe that player skill does way more than the character.

[Grunt_Platform]

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

I have yet to be convinced why the Kroguard is not OP, the only people who have attempted to do that have been overshadowed by people shouting "noob manifest lulz baby cry moar" like immature children, who, are apparantly the Kroguards main fanbase.

Another way I think to fix the Kroguard would be, instead of focusing on their HP/Barriers, is to nerf their weapon damage with shotguns, then it will be a true "tank" themed charactor.  All these unnecessary RPG elements in a third person shooter that people keep quoting make absolutely no sense.

I still stand by my original point, the Kroguard needs to be nerfed in some way to balance out gameplay, otherwise people are going to continue to abuse this charactor until there is only Kroguards left, I have no doubt other charactors need balancing as well, but Kroguards are the main priority at the moment.

Let me introduce you to a concept known as Burden of Proof: The person making an assertion bears the burden of establishing that their assertion is true. To rebut this claim, the opposition need only counter or disprove the claims or provide contradictory evidence.

In other words, it's on you to prove that Kroguard is overpowered. No matter how certain you are of this dubious claim, it is not the responsibility of others do prove otherwise. It is insane to demand people to prove a negative. And if you want to have a reasoned discussion about whether the krogan is OP or not, how about you actually engage the people discussing the point. You're spending so much time complaining about people calling you a noob, I haven't seen you make any actual effort to prove your own claim, or debate the topic like a reasonable adult. If you have a rational, evidence based argument for how the Krogan Battlemaster is overpowered, please include it in the original post.

Until you can show what makes the kroguard so much stronger than powerhouse common classes like Human Adept,  Vanguard, Infiltrator and Soldier... then there's no reason to treat you as anything but a noob or a troll.

Destructo Bot already linked you to this, but try turning your reading comprehension on and trying again: Russell's Teapot -  Burden of proof


...Why am I wasting my time with this again?

Modifié par EvanKester, 07 octobre 2012 - 10:44 .

[Homey C-Dawg]

Lord Dweedle wrote...

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. That's basic debating.

You are making the claim that Kroguards are overpowered and need to be
nerfed. That's the claim you made in the OP, and it's the claim you keep repeating over and over. Thus far, you've done nothing to actually prove this. The burden of proof is not on people to disprove your claims, it's on you to prove them. That's how debates work.

That maybe how it works in your society, but where im from people have to disprove something before saying it is wrong, which has not been done here yet.

Wait, what? I never said this. Someones doing some mis-quoting.

Modifié par Homey C-Dawg, 07 octobre 2012 - 10:37 .

[RNG God]

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

so im an idiot then? what gives you the right to say this?

very nasty person to just call someone an idiot, I have not insulted anyone here, yet people seem to feel the need to do so to me

I will not partake in a flame war due to petty insults 

If you don't want to be called an idiot, don't act like an idiot.

[Lord_Dweedle]

tonydaazntiger319 wrote...

Just a few questions I have

1. How long have you actually been playing the multiplayer? This is not to call you a noob or anything, just to gauge your actual play experience.

2. Have you played as the kroguard? If so, did you enjoy playing as him?

3. Have you consider that each time you've played with a kroguard, that it wasn't the character but the skill of the player? I honestly believe that player skill does way more than the character.

couple of weeks

found kroguard too easy and repetitive

no, my skill is not questionable, I do not play on difficultys I cannot handle, I stick to what im good at.

Not sure what these questions will do, but theres the answers

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Lord_Dweedle wrote...


Well, I dont feel the need to disprove that.

Exactly. Because there is nothing you can say to actually disprove it. Any counterargument (say, posting a picture/name/whatever) could simply be dismissed as a cunning deception on your part. 

That's the issue with asking others to disprove your statements, rather than proving your statements yourself. It's incredibly difficult - bordering on the impossible - to disprove a negative statement, so you basically wind up saying nothing of substance instead of engaging in honest and intelligent discourse.

and I am not assuming im right, there is a difference between knowing and assuming.

If you know you're right, why can't you provide the rationale and evidence by which you arrived at your positions?

[Lord_Dweedle]

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

Lord_Dweedle wrote...


Well, I dont feel the need to disprove that.

Exactly. Because there is nothing you can say to actually disprove it. Any counterargument (say, posting a picture/name/whatever) could simply be dismissed as a cunning deception on your part. 

That's the issue with asking others to disprove your statements, rather than proving your statements yourself. It's incredibly difficult - bordering on the impossible - to disprove a negative statement, so you basically wind up saying nothing of substance instead of engaging in honest and intelligent discourse.

and I am not assuming im right, there is a difference between knowing and assuming.

If you know you're right, why can't you provide the rationale and evidence by which you arrived at your positions?

I have, multiple times.

Kroguards dominate Geth games and are overpowered, which is my point from the beginning!

Cerberus they are overpowered, but, thankfully, sync kills balance out.

Reapers, if anything, they are underpowered, but that is why I suggested swapping out Carnage for Warp so they can do biotic combos and such, to give them a fair edge.

Also, I think Kroguards should have barrier replaced with something else, perhaps give it pull or throw, something vanguardish but not over the top.

their ungodly amount of damage taking is the problem im trying to address, but people on here shout me down with insults and threats to the point of unreasonable.

[Cyonan]

If the Kroguard is a tank, I want Bioware to replace Carnage with Taunt.

I think the Kroguard is too durable with rage up, but I also think the OP is the wrong way to go about balancing that.

[Lord_Dweedle]

Cyonan wrote...

If the Kroguard is a tank, I want Bioware to replace Carnage with Taunt.

I think the Kroguard is too durable with rage up, but I also think the OP is the wrong way to go about balancing that.

at least you concur that balancing needs to happen... even if we disagree on the method.

some people on here.. I dunno anymore, im just gonna wait til a mod closes this because im just not interested in dealing with people insulting me like children anymore lol 

[Grunt_Platform]

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

I have, multiple times.

Kroguards dominate Geth games and are overpowered, which is my point from the beginning!

Cerberus they are overpowered, but, thankfully, sync kills balance out.

Reapers, if anything, they are underpowered, but that is why I suggested swapping out Carnage for Warp so they can do biotic combos and such, to give them a fair edge.

Also, I think Kroguards should have barrier replaced with something else, perhaps give it pull or throw, something vanguardish but not over the top.

their ungodly amount of damage taking is the problem im trying to address, but people on here shout me down with insults and threats to the point of unreasonable.

How are they overpowered?  What makes them overpowered? On what difficulty are they overpowered? What can they do that no other class can replicate?

"They're overpowered against geth" is a meaningless statement, especially without the context of difficulty (the default assumption is Gold).

If you have a rationale, coherent and falsifiable argument for what makes them overpowered, please add it to the original post.

If your only point is that they have too much health and damage reduction, that's easily countered by pointing out that it's balanced by their dependance on weapons for damage output, and lack of weapon boosting powers. The damage output for kroguards is actually rather mediocre.

Modifié par EvanKester, 07 octobre 2012 - 10:49 .

[tonydaazntiger319]

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

tonydaazntiger319 wrote...

Just a few questions I have

1. How long have you actually been playing the multiplayer? This is not to call you a noob or anything, just to gauge your actual play experience.

2. Have you played as the kroguard? If so, did you enjoy playing as him?

3. Have you consider that each time you've played with a kroguard, that it wasn't the character but the skill of the player? I honestly believe that player skill does way more than the character.

couple of weeks

found kroguard too easy and repetitive

no, my skill is not questionable, I do not play on difficultys I cannot handle, I stick to what im good at.

Not sure what these questions will do, but theres the answers

- If you've only played a couple weeks, you've really only scratched the surface of the game. This is why people are questioning the validity of your post.  Even if it's the case that every single time YOU'VE played with a kroguard, they top the scoreboard, your evidence of kroguards being over-powered is coming from a very small sample size of games. This game has been out for quite some time now, and people who have vastly more experience with the game have seen that the kroguard is not over-powered. Yes many people hav resorted to insulting you, but the fact remains that your inexperience with the multiplayer is one of the key issues.

-I wasn't questioning your skill for the 3rd point. I was saying that any class can be extremely powerful when used by somebody that know what they're doing. In a team of kroguards and one engineer against geth, the engineer could easily outscore the the kroguards if he's more skilled at playing the game. 

[Lord_Dweedle]

EvanKester wrote...

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

Lord_Dweedle wrote...


Well, I dont feel the need to disprove that.

Exactly. Because there is nothing you can say to actually disprove it. Any counterargument (say, posting a picture/name/whatever) could simply be dismissed as a cunning deception on your part. 

That's the issue with asking others to disprove your statements, rather than proving your statements yourself. It's incredibly difficult - bordering on the impossible - to disprove a negative statement, so you basically wind up saying nothing of substance instead of engaging in honest and intelligent discourse.

and I am not assuming im right, there is a difference between knowing and assuming.

If you know you're right, why can't you provide the rationale and evidence by which you arrived at your positions?

I have, multiple times.

Kroguards dominate Geth games and are overpowered, which is my point from the beginning!

Cerberus they are overpowered, but, thankfully, sync kills balance out.

Reapers, if anything, they are underpowered, but that is why I suggested swapping out Carnage for Warp so they can do biotic combos and such, to give them a fair edge.

Also, I think Kroguards should have barrier replaced with something else, perhaps give it pull or throw, something vanguardish but not over the top.

their ungodly amount of damage taking is the problem im trying to address, but people on here shout me down with insults and threats to the point of unreasonable.

How are they overpowered?  What makes them overpowered? On what difficulty are they overpowered? What can they do that no other class can replicate?

"They're overpowered against geth" is a meaningless statement, especially without the context of difficulty (the default assumption is Gold).

and there is the other problem, you only seem to consider GOLD as the standard for nerfs and buffs, your logic suggests that anyone who plays bronze or silver do not deserve to have an opinion!

enough, I will not be provoked by elitist comments anymore.

[Grunt_Platform]

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

and there is the other problem, you only seem to consider GOLD as the standard for nerfs and buffs, your logic suggests that anyone who plays bronze or silver do not deserve to have an opinion!

enough, I will not be provoked by elitist comments anymore.

Where did I say only Gold matters? Work on your reading comprehension. I said Gold is the default assumption in these discussions. If you are identifying a problem on another difficulty, please specify.

But if asking you to make a clear and thorough argument is elitist, then I guess I'm just an elitist troll!

Edit: And by the way, the elite players also play Platinum, yet always specify Platinum when talking about balance issues that might be different between Platinum and Gold. Usually it's obvious through context, but all you've offered is "OP against Geth" which... is nothing.

Modifié par EvanKester, 07 octobre 2012 - 10:55 .

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Lord_Dweedle wrote...
I have, multiple times.

Kroguards dominate Geth games and are overpowered, which is my point from the beginning!

The issue is that you start with this premise - that Kroguard dominate geth games and are OP.

This isn't evidence, this is you building a rhetorical house of cards on an unproven premise.

In short, the issue is that you need to start from the beginning - you need to establish that Kroguards do, in fact, dominate geth games to an unhealthy extent. (You need to compare them to other high tier classes; example: Geth infiltrator, N7 Destroyer, etc).

Then you need to establish that this is not a matter of player skill making a class' prowess seem inflated. For instance, I once saw an absolutely amazing drellguard player utterly sweep a Cerb/gold match on Giant, to such a degree that my GI and my buddies' N7 Destroyer and Demolisher were utterly redundant. Yet I don't think drellguard are OP; I recognize that this is a case where that one Drellguard player was amazing.

their ungodly amount of damage taking is the problem im trying to address, but people on here shout me down with insults and threats to the point of unreasonable.

What exactly is the problem with their ability to tank? You must be specific here.

Edit: To the "it's OP on bronze and silver" idea... Just about everything is OP on Bronze and Silver. That's little reason to nerf it, since if you started balancing things around bronze, you'd have to nerf everything but the avenger and katana.

Modifié par Cpl_Facehugger, 07 octobre 2012 - 10:55 .

[Lord_Dweedle]

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

Lord_Dweedle wrote...
I have, multiple times.

Kroguards dominate Geth games and are overpowered, which is my point from the beginning!

The issue is that you start with this premise - that Kroguard dominate geth games and are OP.

This isn't evidence, this is you building a rhetorical house of cards on an unproven premise.

In short, the issue is that you need to start from the beginning - you need to establish that Kroguards do, in fact, dominate geth games to an unhealthy extent. (You need to compare them to other high tier classes; example: Geth infiltrator, N7 Destroyer, etc).

Then you need to establish that this is not a matter of player skill making a class' prowess seem inflated. For instance, I once saw an absolutely amazing drellguard player utterly sweep a Cerb/gold match on Giant, to such a degree that my GI and my buddies' N7 Destroyer and Demolisher were utterly redundant. Yet I don't think drellguard are OP; I recognize that this is a case where that one Drellguard player was amazing.

their ungodly amount of damage taking is the problem im trying to address, but people on here shout me down with insults and threats to the point of unreasonable.

What exactly is the problem with their ability to tank? You must be specific here.

they tank too well to be fair to other players in the game

[JiceDuresh]

EvanKester wrote...

In other words, it's on you to prove that Kroguard is overpowered. No matter how certain you are of this dubious claim, it is not the responsibility of others do prove otherwise. It is insane to demand people to prove a negative. And if you want to have a reasoned discussion about whether the krogan is OP or not, how about you actually engage the people discussing the point. You're spending so much time complaining about people calling you a noob, I haven't seen you make any actual effort to prove your own claim, or debate the topic like a reasonable adult. If you have a rational, evidence based argument for how the Krogan Battlemaster is overpowered, please include it in the original post.

Until you can show what makes the kroguard so much stronger than powerhouse common classes like Human Adept,  Vanguard, Infiltrator and Soldier... then there's no reason to treat you as anything but a noob or a troll.


...Why am I wasting my time with this again?

Calm down, Have some dip. 

If I had access to Bioware's data I could use it and make a better oppinion based on that.  Numbers on how often the class dies in gold/platunm games, how often it's taken with a Reegers, how often it's speced without Carnage etc.  I don't have thoes though so I have to rely on personal information I've collected.  Total number of Kroguards I've seen in the last 4 weeks with a weapon other than the reegers.  0. Total number of Kroguards seen, about one in every 4 games with stints of 3 or 4 public games in a row.

Treating someone as a noob or troll is a dodge.  It doesn't add to the debate and is simply a way for you to make yourself feel superior.  Yes, what I have to go on may be hearsay, but that doesn't change the fact that my oppinion is that the class needs changes, not nessicarily nerfs. 

Besides, what crtieria are you looking for when I challenge a classes power?  If you can't even set that then how am I supposed to know what kind of 'proof' you need.  It's not like it's not common knowledge that he's nigh indestructable, so what else are you looking for? I could do a study of 50 games and record the score of every krogan vanguard I come across, their score, the players N7 rating and what weapon they used, but I have a feeling you'd be one of thoes jerks who just says 'needs more study' and fail to adress the findings rationally anyway.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

they tank too well to be fair to other players in the game

This is not an argument. This is you repeating your unproven premise as fact.

[legion 21]

targaryen8 wrote...

[Blennus]

Tanking is merely soaking up damage. Why is that a bad thing? Please specify why this is bad. They can still die, quite if you aren't paying attention.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

Lord_Dweedle wrote...
I have, multiple times.

Kroguards dominate Geth games and are overpowered, which is my point from the beginning!

The issue is that you start with this premise - that Kroguard dominate geth games and are OP.

This isn't evidence, this is you building a rhetorical house of cards on an unproven premise.

In short, the issue is that you need to start from the beginning - you need to establish that Kroguards do, in fact, dominate geth games to an unhealthy extent. (You need to compare them to other high tier classes; example: Geth infiltrator, N7 Destroyer, etc).

Then you need to establish that this is not a matter of player skill making a class' prowess seem inflated. For instance, I once saw an absolutely amazing drellguard player utterly sweep a Cerb/gold match on Giant, to such a degree that my GI and my buddies' N7 Destroyer and Demolisher were utterly redundant. Yet I don't think drellguard are OP; I recognize that this is a case where that one Drellguard player was amazing.

their ungodly amount of damage taking is the problem im trying to address, but people on here shout me down with insults and threats to the point of unreasonable.

What exactly is the problem with their ability to tank? You must be specific here.

they tank too well to be fair to other players in the game

A Novaguard is as much a tank as a Kroguard. Should BioWare nerf the Novaguard too?

[jpraelster93]

No the kroguard is supposed to be strong fool it has carnage thats enough of a nerf right there

[Cyonan]

To be perfectly fair OP, gold is the default standard because everything is OP on Bronze/Silver when played well, and Platinum gets considered gimmicky by a lot of people and has a massive emphasis on boss killers like the Destroyer or Infiltrators.

As to why the Kroguard is overpowered, it's because of Rage being fixed. Tanks are supposed to be highly durable, they are supposed to hold the attention of the enemy, and they are supposed to control the battlefield. The second two are more MMOish and don't really happen in ME3 MP, so I'll just stick to durability.

Without Rage the Kroguard is a tank. He is durable but he can still die from a lot of concentrated fire.

With Rage up, the Kroguard has ascended beyond tank and is now an unstoppable bullet sponge that only dies to sync kills. The total DR the Kroguard has is now:

30-40% Barrier depending on spec
50% Biotic Charge
30% Rage if full defensive spec

That means 82.5 - 90% total damage reduction while rage is up. which can also now be triggered by Biotic Charge.