654 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyonan]

EvanKester wrote...
Thanks for providing the argument Dweedle can't grasp the necessity of.

At first glance, I look at those numbers and I do go "whoa, that's a lot," but in practice, I've not found that it makes him that much dangerous with a Reegar than any other class. With a full defensive spec, he needs to get 3 biotic charge or melee kills within a 30 second window to keep up his Rage—and using the Reegar during that rage removes kills that could be used to reactivate Rage. For a more powerful melee build he's losing 5-10% of his damage reduction, and a hefty chunk of health too.

When I compare what a Kroguard can do there, to what a Quarian Male Infiltrator can do to the same spawn group, using the same Reegar and spicing it up with Arc Grenades... I think things favor the QMI. Vorcha Sentinel has to hit and run a bit more, but can certainly engage at the same range and ignores damage about as well. The Kroguard's really really durable but I just don't see what problems this causes for the game as a whole, other than being an easy delivery system for Reegar spam.

Forcing the Kroguard to choose a bit more between damage reduction and offensive power sounds fair to me though, especially since the Kroguard suffers a lot from Obvious-Build Syndrome. Reducing some of his damage reduction could work (I'd cut some off of Biotic Charge's innate DR if possible). I just don't see what's necessary about it.


As for tanking—by not cloaking, and fighting at short range with enemies, the Kroguard does actually encourage enemies to focus on him before targeting his allies (this was discussed in the RFI on enemy detection thread). I... don't really see what good that does though, since Decoy does the same job better anyway. He can help a bit with device and hack objectives by drawing enemies away I guess.

I currently don't find Rage too hard to keep up on Gold, especially after the first kill when I get Martial Artist going(since Shield Recharge is worthless to the Kroguard).

I think that a Kroguard should be durable, especially since that QMI is so much more damaging than he is, but right now I think he's a little too durable. Compare him to the N7 Paladin who is supposed to be defensive as well. The Paladin wasn't even as durable as the pre-Rage Kroguard was, and now he's even further behind even with his Omni-Shield. As a tank the Paladin is just getting by on the fact that his debuff Snap Freeze is so amazing.

I like the idea of choosing between offence or defence for the Kroguard, and should mention that I don't think that Rage should be the target of a nerf. When I said "it's because of Rage" I really meant they became OP when Rage got fixed because of the added DR that showed up, not that I think it should be the thing nerfed.

I'm not sure where you would take the DR off though. Biotic Charge is touchy unless you specifically change it for the Kroguard charge. They could target Barrier, lowering base DR a bit then giving it back to evo 6, making Kroguards choose between being durable or regenerating faster.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Xaijin wrote...

I've been synckilled twice at different elevations by banshees.

That's still a very rare case.

Air Quotes wrote...
I undestand that. But this exact ability to soak up damage till Charge on CD and then repeat is what makes him OP. And the elevation glitch is just icing on the cake. 

I mean I play him with a Claymore (not exactly a lightest weapon) and I still have plenty of time for Charge to CD. If I take anything lighter, enemy can't even drop my barriers. 

I guess I can understand your point of view. I still think however that the Kroguard shouldn't be nerfed, given that only a minority of the playerbase knows how to use him effectively.

Modifié par Jay_Hoxtatron, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:39 .

[Xaijin]

Considering the Paladin can absorb 7000 points of damage and then roll away, I can't agree with that at all. Of course there's a huge caveat between static placement and an offensive power that regens shields, but honestly if anything should be changed it's rage. I don't think the krogaurd needs anything pro or con. He's now more vulnerable from behind and can be stutter-staggered by Boss units (two banshees and a brute can actually lock you into a rolling stun loop now with melee, which was categorically impossible before), which never happened before. As for domination of infantry and peepee units, all I have to say about that is "Battlemaster."

Modifié par Xaijin, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:42 .

[tonydaazntiger319]

Rokayt wrote...

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

That you can solo Geth Gold on Glacier faster than a GI or QMI ( in 16 min) by just standing in front of an entire Geth army spraying Reegar and waiting for your Charge to recharge and not eve lose barrier is pretty ridiculous. 

How is this even possible? No, seriously, I don't understand the build that would enable this.

Eat.
Your.
Words.

Huh. Okay. So it's possible. Color me shocked. I thought for sure it was exageration.

Mind you, it takes max level gear and consumables, and no small degree of luck and skill, considering how the kroguard in question managed his enemies' aggro.

I can't say I've found normal kroguard players to be anywhere near as proficient. Indeed, I've used the same build (substituting the reegar since I've got like a reegar 4) and my performance is nowhere near as good. 

You really have to take your time to master something in order to learn its limitations.

Given most people are not capable of keeping up with a perfectly utilized Raptor when using the Harrier..............

Xcal is just that good

[Grunt_Platform]

Cyonan wrote...

I currently don't find Rage too hard to keep up on Gold, especially after the first kill when I get Martial Artist going(since Shield Recharge is worthless to the Kroguard).

I think that a Kroguard should be durable, especially since that QMI is so much more damaging than he is, but right now I think he's a little too durable. Compare him to the N7 Paladin who is supposed to be defensive as well. The Paladin wasn't even as durable as the pre-Rage Kroguard was, and now he's even further behind even with his Omni-Shield. As a tank the Paladin is just getting by on the fact that his debuff Snap Freeze is so amazing.

I like the idea of choosing between offence or defence for the Kroguard, and should mention that I don't think that Rage should be the target of a nerf. When I said "it's because of Rage" I really meant they became OP when Rage got fixed because of the added DR that showed up, not that I think it should be the thing nerfed.

I'm not sure where you would take the DR off though. Biotic Charge is touchy unless you specifically change it for the Kroguard charge. They could target Barrier, lowering base DR a bit then giving it back to evo 6, making Kroguards choose between being durable or regenerating faster.

Yeah, Rage isn't too hard to keep up, but you have to sacrifice damage output to do so, or sacrifice some durability to make it easier and more damaging.

Since the Kroguard already has a distinct version of Biotic Charge, it might be possible to give him less DR from it, which would help a little. For all krogan kits, now that they're not so susceptible to stunlock, they could probably handle having the DR for Rage rebalanced slightly as well. I wouldn't want to nerf Barrier though, since the power could be appearing on some new kits down the road... but I'm all for moving more DR to the evolutions on the armor toggle powers.

I'm still not entirely sure a nerf is needed, but I can get behind anything that makes for more build variety. Geth GI he ain't. If he's more durable than Bioware is comfortable with, OK. But I don't think he's outperforming any of the other high-end classes.

I think the Paladin comparison is a bit odd, since the Paladin's power set involves a lot more evasion, crowd control and power damage. Of the two, I'd say the Paladin's less like to take a Banshee's hand through the gut, which is a huge advantage on its own. 

EDIT: Actually, Xaijin said everything I could possibly say and better. So yeah.

The shift that gave the Kroguard Rage was also tied to an increase the stagger Geth can inflict even against him so.. yeah.

Modifié par EvanKester, 08 octobre 2012 - 02:14 .

[sy7ar]

Rokayt wrote...

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

That you can solo Geth Gold on Glacier faster than a GI or QMI ( in 16 min) by just standing in front of an entire Geth army spraying Reegar and waiting for your Charge to recharge and not eve lose barrier is pretty ridiculous. 

How is this even possible? No, seriously, I don't understand the build that would enable this.

Eat.
Your.
Words.

Actually, not anymore, stupid prime drone.. I can still solo it under 20 min that's one way for me to farm, but I doubt I can do it under 16 again. They just stagger every seconds, droped my dps like crazy. In that case, kroguard is somehwat, nerfed. 

[RedJohn]

Pffff, lot of clases can solo under 20 minutes 

Modifié par RedJohn, 08 octobre 2012 - 01:16 .

[Kazztore]

In all fairness you can't use xcal as a balancer. Well not his gameplay. His ideas often seem better than what bioware does, but balancing by his gameplay would make it impossible for most casual players to escape bronze.

[RedJohn]

Kazztore wrote...

In all fairness you can't use xcal as a balancer. Well not his gameplay. His ideas often seem better than what bioware does, but balancing by his gameplay would make it impossible for most casual players to escape bronze.

Sy7ar did a faster run that Xcal.

[Kazztore]

RedJohn wrote...

Kazztore wrote...

In all fairness you can't use xcal as a balancer. Well not his gameplay. His ideas often seem better than what bioware does, but balancing by his gameplay would make it impossible for most casual players to escape bronze.

Sy7ar did a faster run that Xcal.

OK? That doesn't invalidate my comment, but you may have just been saying sy7ar is better than xcal, in which case... OK?

[xSNPx ZoDiaC]

It is refreshing to see you people are consistently stupid...



By replieing this thread 25+ plus pgs you have now set forwad the nerf hammer. When will you learn?

[joker_jack]

xSNPx ZoDiaC wrote...

It is refreshing to see you people are consistently stupid...



By replieing this thread 25+ plus pgs you have now set forwad the nerf hammer. When will you learn?

Typhoon shows you don't need a thread to have the nerf hammer come down. 

[RedJohn]

Kazztore wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

Kazztore wrote...

In all fairness you can't use xcal as a balancer. Well not his gameplay. His ideas often seem better than what bioware does, but balancing by his gameplay would make it impossible for most casual players to escape bronze.

Sy7ar did a faster run that Xcal.

OK? That doesn't invalidate my comment, but you may have just been saying sy7ar is better than xcal, in which case... OK?

I'm not saying that X is better than Y, I just said what I said.


For me there is not best player in this game, for me there are players that are good at certain things but there will someone better in another aspect, that's way the term of "best player" does not exist for me

[Kazztore]

xSNPx ZoDiaC wrote...

It is refreshing to see you people are consistently stupid...



By replieing this thread 25+ plus pgs you have now set forwad the nerf hammer. When will you learn?

AH, you clever bastard! You've caught onto our diabolical plan, but it is too late to stop us now! Booya HAHAHAHA!

[Kazztore]

RedJohn wrote...

Kazztore wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

Kazztore wrote...

In all fairness you can't use xcal as a balancer. Well not his gameplay. His ideas often seem better than what bioware does, but balancing by his gameplay would make it impossible for most casual players to escape bronze.

Sy7ar did a faster run that Xcal.

OK? That doesn't invalidate my comment, but you may have just been saying sy7ar is better than xcal, in which case... OK?

I'm not saying that X is better than Y, I just said what I said.


For me there is not best player in this game, for me there are players that are good at certain things but there will someone better in another aspect, that's way the term of "best player" does not exist for me

Oh oK, tha'ts cool. I've just encountered x is better than y fanboys all of the place that often throw those comments  in for no reason so i wasn't sure if it was that or just stating a random fact. I also wasn't stating xcal is the best player, I just think he's in the upper eschellon, or w/e you want to call it, of really good players.  I agree with you though, so yay i guess? yay!

Modifié par Kazztore, 08 octobre 2012 - 02:35 .

[KevTheGamer]

targaryen8 wrote...

[Anders028]

Xaijin wrote...

Considering the Paladin can absorb 7000 points of damage and then roll away, I can't agree with that at all. Of course there's a huge caveat between static placement and an offensive power that regens shields, but honestly if anything should be changed it's rage. I don't think the krogaurd needs anything pro or con. He's now more vulnerable from behind and can be stutter-staggered by Boss units (two banshees and a brute can actually lock you into a rolling stun loop now with melee, which was categorically impossible before), which never happened before. As for domination of infantry and peepee units, all I have to say about that is "Battlemaster."

7000 points of damage is 4 Atlas shots on the shield I'm pretty sure

[MP-Ryan]

Air Quotes wrote...
I undestand that. But this exact ability to soak up damage till Charge on CD and then repeat is what makes him OP. And the elevation glitch is just icing on the cake. 

I mean I play him with a Claymore (not exactly a lightest weapon) and I still have plenty of time for Charge to CD. If I take anything lighter, enemy can't even drop my barriers. 

Have you played him since the patch against Geth on Gold or in a Platinum game?  Hunters and Primes are now the sources of stunlock hell.  I was very displeased to find myself being staggered like a novaguard - except I don't get invicibility frames like a novaguard - through both gold and platinum matches today.

Whatever BioWare did in this last patch both to the kroguard and the Geth, he's now completely vulnerable to stunlock, even head on against Hunters.  Frustrating as hell as the class has no dodge, and rage DR requires getting close to the Hunters for melee kills.

Kenadian can attest - I died more as a kroguard in tonight's platinum match than I have in any other, and that's with stronghold V and cyclonic 3.  The calls for a nerf, particularly against Geth, are utterly without merit at this point.

EDIT:  In point of fact, anyone calling a nerf should go try a Geth/Gold kroguard solo before commenting.  Thursday's patch completely changed the kroguard mechanics against Geth.  I don't think there was ever much question about Cerberus and Reapers, given that they have sync kills that regularly shut down kroguards if there isn't a handy unexposed step nearby when the Banshees and Phantoms come calling.  Rage in no way makes up for the stunlock at this juncture.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 08 octobre 2012 - 03:09 .

[AzuraAngellus]

legion 21 wrote...

targaryen8 wrote...

[Niran]

I dont get the idea of nerfing the Kroguard. I mean isnt a Krogan supposed to be a tanky Monster? isnt it supposed to eat damage as breakfast and then tell you to try harder? and because Biotic Krogans , i mean BIOTIC KROGANS damn, Biotic + Krogan, doesnt it say EVERYTHING already? a Krogan should feel like a beast, and in rage mode it REALLY feels like a beast in rage, its pure damage output in melee and ability to take amounts of damage that would have killed every other character 4 times is exactly what i was hoping for when playing a Krogan and now YOU want to nerf him? wtf dont you get about "Its a huge turtle that has all life important organs twice", this description alone tells you that this Character is meant to be a damage eater in all means, and i still think they should be immune(not instantly die) to simple sync kills like phantom stab. I think the only thing that SHOULD be done is not nerfing the Kroguard, its buffing him (and the other Krogans) with phantom sync kill survival, maybe faster husk defense (like he jumps on you and you just swing the arm and throw that stupid husk miles away like a real krogan should) and maybe give him a chance to survive banshee grab (countering it or just a 50% chance to not die instantly). Krogans should also be able to grab Pyro´s because of their overall more strength and while we are at buffing, why not giving them slow HP regen that slowly fills HP back to atlast 50 (well 60% because of you know 5 life bars and not 4). Now dont even think about saying "but then he would be OP", just NOPE not even close to it, it would just make him to a damage sustaining monster, even more than he already is, but it would by no means make im invincible, you can still easily get finished, grabbed by husks and then shot by a ravager or tackled by brutes while beeing shot by stupid marauders or grilled by pyros and maybe staggered by hunters sometimes while a geth drones bombards you from behind and a prime nukes your ass which will quickly result in death.

[Bleachrude]

Again, if kroguards are supposed to be TANKS (a MMO term), they should ALSO have low kill scores.

Tanks in MMO manage aggro but aren't actually high damage dealers. Sure, the kroguard doesn't have a DPS as high as the geth infiltrator but that's NOT NEEDED.

You just need to have a DPS high enough to kill the enemy before it kills you. Combined with his durability, the kroguard is rocking a DPS that makes him equivalent to a GI,

Sure, the OP hasn't played long but I can't see how anyone can say that the kroguard isnt stupid strong.

[Bleachrude]

MP-Ryan wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...
I undestand that. But this exact ability to soak up damage till Charge on CD and then repeat is what makes him OP. And the elevation glitch is just icing on the cake. 

I mean I play him with a Claymore (not exactly a lightest weapon) and I still have plenty of time for Charge to CD. If I take anything lighter, enemy can't even drop my barriers. 

Have you played him since the patch against Geth on Gold or in a Platinum game?  Hunters and Primes are now the sources of stunlock hell.  I was very displeased to find myself being staggered like a novaguard - except I don't get invicibility frames like a novaguard - through both gold and platinum matches today.

Whatever BioWare did in this last patch both to the kroguard and the Geth, he's now completely vulnerable to stunlock, even head on against Hunters.  Frustrating as hell as the class has no dodge, and rage DR requires getting close to the Hunters for melee kills.

Kenadian can attest - I died more as a kroguard in tonight's platinum match than I have in any other, and that's with stronghold V and cyclonic 3.  The calls for a nerf, particularly against Geth, are utterly without merit at this point.

EDIT:  In point of fact, anyone calling a nerf should go try a Geth/Gold kroguard solo before commenting.  Thursday's patch completely changed the kroguard mechanics against Geth.  I don't think there was ever much question about Cerberus and Reapers, given that they have sync kills that regularly shut down kroguards if there isn't a handy unexposed step nearby when the Banshees and Phantoms come calling.  Rage in no way makes up for the stunlock at this juncture.

I have and the prime drone is the biggest change since you can be stunned from behind now. That said, I think you haven't actually played a kroguard ever before.

From a different thread
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Annomander wrote...

Here's a nice video; read the text at the start and use the time stamps in the description to get to the good parts.

Kroguard vs "Stunlocking" geth

Ok, here's what my conclusions are for the kroguard:

What they gained:
-Stagger
immunity for melee attacks which impact the krogan's front arc (180
degrees in front of your character). Prior to the patch, melee attacks
still staggered the kroguard even from the front.

What hasn't changed:
-projectile attacks capable of staggering non-krogan/batarians from the front, still interrupt reload / full auto-firing. 
This has ALWAYS been a feature, and has ALWAYS existed on the kroguard. Shows
how often all these people complaining about it actually played the
krogan/batarians classes pre-patch if you didn't even know it existed

What can STILL stagger you:
-Melee attacks from the rear arc of your character (don't let them hit you from behind!)
-geth drone incinerate from the rear arc your character (don't stand with your back to it!)
-atlas rockets (but ONLY from the side and rear...Krogans now have FRONTAL stagger resistance to atlas rockets)
-brutes when their corpse falls over
-guardian's melee attacks

What will STILL interrupt reloading / firing (this is NOT considered "staggering"):
***None of these are new, these attacks ALWAYS had this effect, even on the kroguard: the patch did not alter this***
-banshee screams / melee: will interrupt your firing / reloading
-geth prime cannon / geth hunter GPS when it strikes your character from BEHIND (kroguard specific I think; haven't noticed this on the krogan sentinel or the batarian soldier)
-some
stronger melee attacks (such as a brute charging you) will interrupt
your reload or your full auto-firing but will no longer physically
stagger your character

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Wraithwain]

Wow. 25 pages in a single day.
I just wanted to add another no, since everyone else already gave the nice arguments as to why the Kroguard is fine.

[Lord_Dweedle]

People really get carried away over nerf suggestions

[N7 Shadow Liara]

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

People really get carried away over nerf suggestions

And a crybaby like you should stop playing ME3 MP! this MP is not a competition but a team game. Go therefore play cod and others instead whining! or better, learn to play!

Modifié par N7 Shadow Liara, 08 octobre 2012 - 11:49 .