11 réponses à ce sujet

[garrusfan1]

 Okay please don't bring up ME3 ending this is about DA3. Bioware and specifically the people working on DA3 I want an  option (since I am pretty sure there will be multiple endings) many people like them and while the choice is yours I would greatly appreciate a happy ending anyone agree


Edit I said an option for a happy ending ALRIGHT AN OPTION there would be a bittersweet option and a horrible option and by happy option I mean hero lives and LI as well but there could be something bad during the game like someone close dying half way through but I would like a happy ending at the end 
So remember I Said AN OPTION FOR A HAPPY ENDING KEYWORD OPTION

Modifié par garrusfan1, 07 octobre 2012 - 04:08 .

[Allan Schumacher]

When people talk about choices, are they referring to having the narrative bend in the way that they want it to?

[Allan Schumacher]

Rather I think, having the option of letting our characters bend the narrative. (which is, I think, a minor but significant difference)

The reason I phrased it the way that I did is because a lot of times it came up in the ME3 forums when people that liked the ending didn't want a DLC that added a more definitively happy ending. The common response was often "well you don't need to choose that ending if you like the current one."

The thing is, whether it be my character or even Allan the game player, ostensibly choosing a suboptimal outcome knowing that a superior outcome is the likely consequence of a different choice is not really much of a choice at all. It wouldn't make any sense for Allan or Shepard to have made a different choice!

The problem I had with ME2 is that while it had all these variations on the ending, they basically amounted to what level of completionist is the player? I did like the decisions on the suicide mission affecting characters surviving, but doing loyalty and acquiring resources is just something that I'm likely going to do anyways. The cost isn't much of a cost IMO.

So from there, I'd like to see it done better, if we're going to do it. Ideally, I'd prefer that the only way to get the "best" happy ending involves doing something decidedly less happy in the game. Though in that case people come back to me with arguments like "Well what is it people are supposed to get from the game? Good things only come to people that do bad things!?" So it's really a situation of "probably not going to please everyone" so hopefully it's just done well enough that in general people appreciate it.

[Allan Schumacher]

deatharmonic wrote...

Personally I disagree, for me it about choosing what suits my characters story and journey. For example in DAO some of my wardens sacrificed themselves choosing to die for the cause rather than become queen of Ferelden and I like that I could choose to either have some of my wardens go out in a blaze of glory or live happily ever after. I certainly didn't choose the happy ending every time I played just because it was the 'optimal' ending. As for ME2, well I enjoyed plotting the demise of some of my crew mates .

I don't consider becoming the Queen of Ferelden to be an ostensibly superior choice, however.  Having the main character live isn't something I'd consider a superior choice.

Having the main character live without any good reason over the death of the main character is silly though.

If the Warden is told toppling the tower will kill the archdemon and everyone on the roof, while firing the Ballista will also kill the archdemon and no one else, in what world does it make sense to topple a tower?  Especially if the ability to topple the tower is functionally not any easier than firing the ballista?

[Allan Schumacher]

Tancred Of The Chantry wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
*snip*

In my original post I said, “I want multiple and good endings.” I honestly don’t give a d**n about whether the ending is happy, bittersweet, or whatever. Good does not have to mean happy.....

I'm just curious why you quoted me and then snipped?  I'm not even sure which post you're replying to nor am I even sure that your post is even a reply to me or just a general comment.  I'm confused.

[Allan Schumacher]

Fiacre wrote...

I agree with this. That's one of the things I think DA:O did really well -- you could have all sorts of endings, and it always felt natural if you don't want to metagame instead of roleplay. Acharacter who doesn't know Orzammar or politics very well might choose Harrowmont because he seems to be the nice and "good" choice, but they consequences in the epilogue turn out to be worse than those for Bhelen. That doesn't mean choosing Harrowmont isn't a legitimate choice. Likewise, a character might decide to kill the werewolves rather than cure the curse, or sacrifice Isolde/kill Connor instead of going to the Circle for reasons that make sense from that characters perspective.

I agree with things like Harrowmont and whatnot.  It's things like that that I really like.  Bhelen is quite belligerent and if you went Dwarf Noble the reasoning behind trusting him is even less.  But siding with Harrowmont ultimately is bad for Orzammar.  I would not like it if there was a way to side with Harrowmont, and then you can go off and do some extra stuff to ensure Orzammar still becomes awesome under Harrowmont's rule.

And then there's also how you interpret the consequences of your choices
-- do you think the DR makes for a bittersweet rather than a happy
ending? Do you think that US/sacrificing Loghain or Alistair makes for a
happy ending instead? Would your character choose the US/DR, even
though you personally think that the other one is a happier ending?

I agree.  Provide something for the player to have to think about so that they have to evaluate what is the best choice. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Could you please explain your analogy? How are any decisions in, say, DAO like that?

No decisions are like that in DAO. It was a hypothetical example of something that I think would be poor, created in response to the people that suggest that players are still free to choose "poorer" endings that they like even if a clearly superior, happier ending exists.

[Allan Schumacher]

Still, there are gamers will go to great lengths to argue that they're preferred ending is the One True Correct one.

I think the fact that someone is willing to argue that their choice is the best one is still interesting. I think that in order to have this be a discussion requires, on some level, the endings to not have a clear optimal result.

(How people go about discussing said perspectives is another matter altogether).

I don't think there's any argument over what is the best ending for ME2, but DAO there is discussion about it due to some inherent uncertainty.

[Allan Schumacher]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I don't think there's any argument over what is the best ending for ME2

You've not seen the lengths I've gone to justify keeping the base, Mr Schumacher!

I did forget about the base, that's true.  I was more just thinking in terms of the squad survival.

[Allan Schumacher]

And I'm not aware of any "inherent uncertainty" in Origins. Somebody has to die, or you take Morrigan at her word. Where's the uncertainty?

The uncertainty is the Dark Ritual. No one can be certain of what it means to perform it.


EDIT:  Without discussing ME3 much further (lets try to keep this spoiler free too), I'll also add that it's clear that someone things one of the endings is clearly evil, whereas I do not think that that ending is evil in the slightest.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 07 octobre 2012 - 04:35 .

[Allan Schumacher]

devSin wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The uncertainty is the Dark Ritual. No one can be certain of what it means to perform it.

The uncertainty is the future.

What it means to perform it is to have sex with Morrigan and father an abomination. (Or to get poor Alistair to do it.)

But even ME2 has this "uncertainty". What will happen if the base is saved or destroyed? Which decision is "best"?

(To point, I get what you were saying, but I don't think ME2 can be viewed as just whether or not you screw up the suicide mission.)

I did state that I forgot about the choice at the end.

Though is it really a parallel?  The advantage the Dark Ritual has is that it's done and you do see some in game consequences (your characters don't die) for the choice.  It affects what happens immediately after it in the same game, which makes it stronger IMO.

[Allan Schumacher]

Even if the choice for a "happy" ending exists, the choice for a "dramatic" ending is not diminished. What makes one ending "optimal" and another ending "suboptimal" is entirely subjective, even in ME2--while one person might argue that the "No One Left Behind" ending is the "optimal" ending because everyone survived, another might just as strongly argue that their ending where Shepard's love interest died is the "optimal" ending because it really underscored the sacrifices Shepard is willing to make to stop the Reapers. It really comes down to player perference.

That's purely from a narrative point of view, and with respect to ME2 it mostly comes across as not as well done as I would have liked because I find obtaining the primary preconditions for it is rather trivial. That it's still a factor of the entire game's worth of play, however, is its saving grace. That is, it's not like the game says at the end "Okay, if you want you can kill some people off for no particularly good reason."

I like that in my ME2 game, Thane died, and I think that that makes for a more interesting story. In spite of knowing this, I still consider the roleplaying "optimal" ending to be the one where everyone survives. I don't think it makes for a more interesting story, but it's clear that my Shepard would have preferred everyone to survive. If he had the clairvoyance to know which decisions would result in the death of various characters, he would have made different choices.


With respect to ME3, a game where the choices are at the end themselves (rather than a culmination of the entire game with no proactive choice at the end), the idea that had I done everything and I am presented with a choice to say "eff off" and it works compared to the other choices defeats any of the interesting aspects of the choice. At best they become "that was interesting from a narrative perspective" and less of a "I find it interesting that in spite of all the challenges, there's still a great cost that must be paid in other to win this thing."

This is compounded if there's explicit closure. Without explicit closure, the player is arguably put more into the head of Shepard in that you have to make your decision and live with it, without ever getting any extra metaknowledge to influence your decision. The focus shifts to the choice itself, rather than the consequences of the choice. I think people that liked the ending to ME3 are the ones that were able to enjoy that focus, whereas there's definitely a group of people that did prefer to have more closure and they are the ones that do not like the ending (at least the original ending).