287 réponses à ce sujet

[Cimeas]

And let me add that I know in the real world you can try your hardest and still fail, but do we really need that in our games? Can I not just have one happy ending where I save the world?

[InfinitePaths]

Bfler wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Define "happy".

DAO with ritual, Alistair king and every party member alive.

Nope that's grey,Alistar may lead Ferelden to ruin or he will maybe be a great kind(gray option).I am 99% sure that Ritual is a sad/black option rather than a happy option,becouse it involves blood magic,and this old god thing sounds too dangeurus,you threaten the safety of Theadas becouse of your selfishness,but your Warden is alive so that is kind of a happy ending,but still it's gray.Every party member alive is happy?I'd be happier if some of them are dead :happy::whistle:

[Monica21]

Cimeas wrote...

Games, unlike movies, deserve happy endings, and the reasons are very simple.

Well, this could turn into a philosophical discussion now. What you're saying isn't that the game deserves a happy ending, but that the player does simply because of time invested. I would disagree for a lot of reasons, but mostly just because you spend a lot of time doing something doesn't mean it ends well. I can point to a lot of things like marriages, jobs, books, etc.

The point is that the player's job in a video game is to resolve some sudden crisis. The resolution typically comes in the form of violence. There's no way to violently resolve conflict without having some sort of sacrifice. Yes, you struggle and conquer and feel success and failure, but how does any of that mean the player or character is owed a happy ending?

[byzantine horse]

I think the "happiness-level" of your ending should be a measure of your success throughout the game. DAO did this quite well, but that's as much happy as I can tolerate I think. There's just something very wrong about having a story where thousands die and the protagonist is unharmed at the end both personally and in having lost no friends etc. Loss and the lust for vengeance that it gives birth to is a very driving factor that I wouldn't want to be without in a Bioware game, that's why Loghain functioned so well in DAO.

Not to mention, even if the ending to LotR is pretty much sunshine and rainbows in the movies the books had a much darker view on things: The Shire was scorched by Saruman, the Elves departed Middle Earth and the Dwarves were in decline. Sauron was defeated and the world was safe but it didn't come without sacrifice and tragedy which Tolkien was very good at pointing out and describing throughout the books.

Edit: And I think people need to look at "losing" with a different perspectve. Seems like an awful lot of people see anything but 100% success as a disastrous loss and therefore they didn't win, Sauron or Archdemon dead or not, and thus the game is ruined to them. I think that's a very odd stance to take towards a game that tries to have a good story, no good story is without loss and sacrifice.

Modifié par byzantine horse, 07 octobre 2012 - 02:53 .

[Il Divo]

Cimeas wrote...

Games, unlike movies, deserve happy endings, and the reasons are very simple.

1) Movies are almost always less than 2 hours long. A Bioware RPG is usually 30-50 hours. More time invested means more investment in the characters and story.

2) Most importantly, GAMES ARE ACTIVE. If I press 'PLAY' on a movie and leave it for 2 hours, it will be over when I come back. If I press play in a game then I'll be right where I left off.

IN games *we* fight the enemies, *we* make the choices, *we* struggle and conquer and feel success and failure. But after those 50 hours, after I've killed the hardest boss and done the most challenging puzzle and assembled this team of characters that I care about, to fail is ridiculous; It is taking control away from the player.

You're telling me I can do everything right, I can spent dozens of hours of my time and defeat every challenge you throw at me and I still lose?

That is what is ridiculous about game endings. Movies have no challenge and require no skill or thought because they don't depend on the viewer. Games do.

This is exactly why I prefer the tragic ending in gaming. Interactivity does not mean that the player has to be made to feel "happy". The advantage of interactivity is that it increases the connection which exists between the player and character, regardless of whatever emotions are triggered. Since we perform all these actions ourselves, we become active participants and are more invested in the experience.
 
One of my favorite fps games is the Darkness. At one point, the player/character is restrained and made to watch the main villain murder your LI. It was probably one of the most intense moments I've had in gaming, simply because of the different perspective from which the story was told. Seeing all our efforts come undone imo is terrific if handled correctly.

[Zjarcal]

Cimeas wrote...

Can I not just have one happy ending where I save the world?

Those are already a dime a dozen.

[Seboist]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

At the beginning of this thread I asked for "happy" to be defined, and, from the various responses in this thread, nobody agrees on what qualifies a happy ending (which I was expecting to be the case).

Arguing over happy endings works about as well as arguing over whether a game is an RPG, because there's no real consensus for what the term actually means. One man's "happy" is another's "bittersweet".

A Happy ending is where Human dominance prevails and non-humans/Xenos are smashed.

[Nyxia]

I want a satisfying ending too! Please please please!!

[Seboist]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

At the beginning of this thread I asked for "happy" to be defined, and, from the various responses in this thread, nobody agrees on what qualifies a happy ending (which I was expecting to be the case).

Arguing over happy endings works about as well as arguing over whether a game is an RPG, because there's no real consensus for what the term actually means. One man's "happy" is another's "bittersweet".

A Happy ending is where Human dominance prevails and non-humans/Xenos are smashed.

Well, that would be an interesting ending for sure.

Personally, I wouldn't go for that in DA, but I totally would in TES.

Not sure what I did in DA2 but somehow my Hawke and her goons went Einsatzgruppen on the poor elves and their hotdog stands over something to do with Merrill.

Then before or after that(can't remember which) my Hawke goes on an anti-grey skinned killing spree against these Qunari who are rioting... because they don't like the city... i guess.

Probably would have enjoyed it if I knew what was going on.

[Brockololly]

I'd just like an option to fail the main questline. Not in a "Game Over!" sense but "Nope, the Archdemon won!" kind of sense. In the context of Origins, maybe your Warden just got to Denerim, looked around to his companions and said "**** it, I'm out. Who's with me?" And then they walked away. Then for import's sake you could just have some other Warden have swooped in to save the day while your Warden is forever thought of as a reviled coward fugitive going forward.

I have no clue how that sort of thing might work within DA3's possible story, but just give more options for the ending, good, bad and everything in between.

[Nilbog79]

Some folks like happy endings (most of them it seems) and some like bittersweet endings, so why not make both? It requires some extra work of course, but keeps everyone happy.
For me either would be fine as long as it makes logical sense.

[Zombie_Alexis]

My preference is for a game with "choices that matter" and with that preference I realize that I may not get a "happy ending". I just want a satisfying ending -- one that makes sense and is in line with the choices that I did make. I fully expect that in a game where there is huge conflict and differences of opinions, lives will be saved or lost, friendships will be made or broken and beliefs will be strengthened or abandoned. At least that's what I hope for. I want depth, I want deep emotional highs and lows. And I want the ending to reflect that. I don't think a generic "happy ending" would be satisfying, unless it makes sense in the world of the game I'm playing.

[Monica21]

Brockololly wrote...

I'd just like an option to fail the main questline. Not in a "Game Over!" sense but "Nope, the Archdemon won!" kind of sense. In the context of Origins, maybe your Warden just got to Denerim, looked around to his companions and said "**** it, I'm out. Who's with me?" And then they walked away. Then for import's sake you could just have some other Warden have swooped in to save the day while your Warden is forever thought of as a reviled coward fugitive going forward.

I have no clue how that sort of thing might work within DA3's possible story, but just give more options for the ending, good, bad and everything in between.

It's been a long time since this has happened to me, but I know you can lose the Landsmeet. If you lose the Landsmeet you die, although I don't think it's a "Game Over" moment but more a "Reload Last Saved" moment. It would be nice if it showed the darkspawn ravaging the land because you died though.

[garrusfan1]

I said an option for a happy ending

[Monica21]

garrusfan1 wrote...

I said an option for a happy ending

And few people can agree on what that actually means or if it makes sense to the story.

[Bfler]

Monica21 wrote...

It's been a long time since this has happened to me, but I know you can lose the Landsmeet. If you lose the Landsmeet you die, although I don't think it's a "Game Over" moment but more a "Reload Last Saved" moment. It would be nice if it showed the darkspawn ravaging the land because you died though.

If you lose the landsmeet there is a fight and no game over. If you survive this fight it is as if you have won the landsmeet.

[garrusfan1]

Monica21 wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

I said an option for a happy ending

And few people can agree on what that actually means or if it makes sense to the story.

I edited the title post but some sacrifice is alright but the hero and LI living and a sense that I won and didn't lose everything.

[FenrirBlackDragon]

Wow... a lot of people on this thread don't have much confidence in King Alistair, it seems.

I think what makes a happy ending for people is largely subjective. Not everyone likes every Party Member, so for them, executing Alistair, Zevran, or another member is equal to a happy ending for them. For some, having all Party Members alive is happy. Who winds up in power, whether the dark ritual was performed or not, in the end it is up to the player what constitutes "a happy ending."

I was very satisfied, that even though the overall ending in DA:2 was rather limited, I was happy I got to decide Ander's fate. (I personally chose the option to tell him to leave, because he doesn't get to become a martyr for his cause, but he is also being punished because he does not get to help Hawke protect the mages and has to live with the consequences of his actions, at least for a while.)

With DA:O, there were a number of different endings, and I think all of them were pretty satisfying, with maybe an exception or two. (For me, an executed Alistair or wandering drunk Alistair just makes me feel like a terrible person.)

But the key was, the endings seemed satisfying, complete, even if it was  not "happy" in the classic sense.

I think a "happy" ending for me would be something that doesn't feel forced, it makes sense because of the character I've created and the choices I have made and the relationships my character has built.

But, I'll admit, I really don't want to see an ending where you do all this work only to find you were doomed from the start, and nothing you do has any real effect whatsoever.

(Looking more at examples from Literature, but I think it can apply to games as well.)

Modifié par FenrirBlackDragon, 07 octobre 2012 - 04:24 .

[Monica21]

garrusfan1 wrote...
I edited the title post but some sacrifice is alright but the hero and LI living and a sense that I won and didn't lose everything.

Well, that already happens though, depending on who your LI is. Unless you're saying you want a set happy ending for everyone that isn't based on choice.

[DreGregoire]

garrusfan1 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

I said an option for a happy ending

And few people can agree on what that actually means or if it makes sense to the story.

I edited the title post but some sacrifice is alright but the hero and LI living and a sense that I won and didn't lose everything.

So then, in your mind the only thing that makes it a happy ending is the above bolded? There is nothing wrong with feeling that way, but not everybody agrees that those things equal a happy ending. Other people are looking for different indicators of a happy ending.

[Siegdrifa]

Cimeas wrote...

And let me add that I know in the real world you can try your hardest and still fail, but do we really need that in our games? Can I not just have one happy ending where I save the world?

Video games are entertrainement.
I like my job. If it turn out that my job give me more satisfaction in the end.... why would i buy a game that would give me no other outcome than a frutrating / unsatisfiyng / meh ending without achivement ?
If my IRL > Vitual entertainement, then i know where i must invest my free time (because my job is also my favorit hobby).

Bioware work hard to deliver games that offer different experience depending of how you play your characters, i don't think they should restrict the spectrum of endings into only 1 aspect (only good, only bad or only bitter sweet).

A "good" ending should be the reflection of your playthrough. And by good, i don't mean "happy"; i mean adequat concequences from your choices... if you make friends or ennemys, kill innocents; i like to carry the responsability of my choices that was revelant for me at T instant, and by choices, Bioware don't have to make me choose between vitriol and cyanide to make sure i will hesitate on wich one i'll pick.

[garrusfan1]

Monica21 wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...
I edited the title post but some sacrifice is alright but the hero and LI living and a sense that I won and didn't lose everything.

Well, that already happens though, depending on who your LI is. Unless you're saying you want a set happy ending for everyone that isn't based on choice.

In DAO and DA2 yeah and I was one of the few who didn't hate DA2 ending because it set up a sequel so it wasn't a conclusion so it didn't need to wrap everything up. Although it was too linear I think but it makes it easier to write DA3 I think so yeah that counts as a happy ending for me but DA3 shouldn't be linear since I am guessing it will be a conclusion to this story although I hope they keep the franchise going