287 réponses à ce sujet

[Eveangaline]

MillKill wrote...

Tragic endings are far more emotionally powerful and memorable.

In your opinion. Personally, I very much disagree

[axl99]

Happy ending? Isn't that's already in every game thus far?

Oh. THAT kinda happy ending.

Eh.

[Genshie]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

I agree with this. That's one of the things I think DA:O did really well -- you could have all sorts of endings, and it always felt natural if you don't want to metagame instead of roleplay. Acharacter who doesn't know Orzammar or politics very well might choose Harrowmont because he seems to be the nice and "good" choice, but they consequences in the epilogue turn out to be worse than those for Bhelen. That doesn't mean choosing Harrowmont isn't a legitimate choice. Likewise, a character might decide to kill the werewolves rather than cure the curse, or sacrifice Isolde/kill Connor instead of going to the Circle for reasons that make sense from that characters perspective.

I agree with things like Harrowmont and whatnot.  It's things like that that I really like.  Bhelen is quite belligerent and if you went Dwarf Noble the reasoning behind trusting him is even less.  But siding with Harrowmont ultimately is bad for Orzammar.  I would not like it if there was a way to side with Harrowmont, and then you can go off and do some extra stuff to ensure Orzammar still becomes awesome under Harrowmont's rule.

That part really felt like I was choosing the lesser of two evils. I just couldn't chose Bhelen because the way he went about getting his way and doing anything to achieve his goals.

[Fiacre]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I agree with things like Harrowmont and whatnot.  It's things like that that I really like.  Bhelen is quite belligerent and if you went Dwarf Noble the reasoning behind trusting him is even less.  But siding with Harrowmont ultimately is bad for Orzammar.  I would not like it if there was a way to side with Harrowmont, and then you can go off and do some extra stuff to ensure Orzammar still becomes awesome under Harrowmont's rule.

Oh, I see. Yeah, that's silly -- there's no point in making choices have different consequences if you can just do something extra and everything is sunshine and rainbows, even if it doesn't make any sense.

I agree.  Provide something for the player to have to think about so that they have to evaluate what is the best choice. 

I also think that such endings -- even if the player decides they are a happy ending (like the example of my happy ending I posted, that has some "bad" things but still counts as happy to me), are more powerful than to have everything be doomed from the start or to have it be clear cut. Of course, a tragic ending can be powerful -- or frustrating; I'm no fan of doomed from the start, I think it's far more powerful if there had been a way to win that the protagonist couldn't take because of his own flaws -- but a happy ending can be powerful, too, if it's a logical consequence of the character's actions and something that was worked for rather than simply given. Just like a sacrifice is more powerful when it's made out of the believe that it's necessary and not because the game forces you to. Or a bittersweet ending that isn't all "Hey, I'm bitterweet, yay" but leaves it up to the player.

I've a character that made Alistair King because of his blood and let Alistair convince him to kill Loghain even though he wouldn't have done it normally (and let Alistair do it because he couldn't bring himself to do so), and while things went well for that character -- his brother had survived, after all, he got a teyrnir, the King was his friend and all his other friends were still alive, it has something distinctly bittersweet about it because of that Landsmeet choice and how that character feels about what he's chosen, even if a lot of people might see that as happier than what I usually choose.

Modifié par Fiacre, 07 octobre 2012 - 02:16 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Crono Trigger had ten endings and they were ALL fantastic. Some were dark, some were happy, some were bizarre.

If you chose to kill Magus, who you found was actually just doing all of the horrible things to prevent the real evil, Lavos, from destroying his home, then Frog turns back into a human. If not, then Magus can search for his lost sister (and you get an awesome spell caster in your party).

That seems like a pretty heavy weight choice, there. And they did it in 24-bits.


Boom goes the dynamite.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 07 octobre 2012 - 02:24 .

[SpEcIaLRyAn]

I'd prefer bittersweet. Happy in that everything is concluded and we won or something like that, But bitter in that we look back and think about what it took to get to this ending. Something like Gears of War 3s ending, Where its happy and everyone is celebrating but looking back at what it took to get to that point.

[Vandicus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

deatharmonic wrote...

Personally I disagree, for me it about choosing what suits my characters story and journey. For example in DAO some of my wardens sacrificed themselves choosing to die for the cause rather than become queen of Ferelden and I like that I could choose to either have some of my wardens go out in a blaze of glory or live happily ever after. I certainly didn't choose the happy ending every time I played just because it was the 'optimal' ending. As for ME2, well I enjoyed plotting the demise of some of my crew mates .

I don't consider becoming the Queen of Ferelden to be an ostensibly superior choice, however.  Having the main character live isn't something I'd consider a superior choice.

Having the main character live without any good reason over the death of the main character is silly though.

If the Warden is told toppling the tower will kill the archdemon and everyone on the roof, while firing the Ballista will also kill the archdemon and no one else, in what world does it make sense to topple a tower?  Especially if the ability to topple the tower is functionally not any easier than firing the ballista?

Exactly the point I've been trying to make in regards to the inability for an unhappy ending and a happy ending being able to coexist in a game properly. To choose the unhappy ending in a game which has a happy ending is basically like walking in front of a bus by choice.

In DA:O if an unhappy ending had been included, the Warden have failed to stop the Blight(or something along those lines). The unhappy ending instead becomes a failure ending under such circumstances, much like a game over screen if the player loses in combat.

Likewise if the Dark Ritual were not ambiguous in nature, the bittersweet US ending in DA:O would have a very different impact.

How would the people here who took US feel if they learned that Dark Ritual is an undeniably good action, for example the Dark Ritual brings peace and freedom to the people of Thedas, while stopping all future Blights and also prevents Thedas from exploding in one giant magic nuke?

US ending suddenly goes from being a bittersweet ending to a "you lose, game over" ending, because Thedas is nuked if you don't do the Dark Ritual.

[Lithuasil]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Define "happy".

No more Grey Wardens, no more qunari, a solution for the mage-mundane conflict that satisfies both sides, and my character on the throne of Orlais 

[Iakus]

 I think by "happy ending" people are asking fro endings in which the player character clearly lives and is not directly responsible for any major war crimes, genocide, that sort of thing.

Essentially, the character can have a "happilly ever after" even if we don't get to see it.  Everything doesn't have to get tied up in a neat little bow, but the character's personal story can end happily.  After all, the next game will feature a different protagonist anyway, right?

In other words, less Mass Effect 3, more Jade Empire.

[zevranarainais]

Am I one of the very few people who has no problem with a happy ending? Or varying degrees of tragic endings, for that matter? Maybe this makes me less sophisticated, less of a gaming connoisseur, but I don't see why everyone is so hell-bent on misery and destruction. Stories can still be emotive with happy endings, just as they can be be emotive without them.

Gradation is lovely. And having a happy ending doesn't mean that the game is trash.

[upsettingshorts]

BioWare please have endings that make sense and are thematically consistent with your game. That is all.

[Iakus]

scyphozoa wrote...

I like happy endings only after the protagonist has suffered. They can't just coast through the plot to a happy ending. They have to be made vulnerable and to suffer, they have to earn their happy ending.

Yes, I'm a big fan of "Earn Your Happy Ending"

That does, of course, assume there's a "happy ending" to earn, though

[Chromie]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Crono Trigger had ten endings and they were ALL fantastic. Some were dark, some were happy, some were bizarre.

If you chose to kill Magus, who you found was actually just doing all of the horrible things to prevent the real evil, Lavos, from destroying his home, then Frog turns back into a human. If not, then Magus can search for his lost sister (and you get an awesome spell caster in your party).

That seems like a pretty heavy weight choice, there. And they did it in 24-bits.


Boom goes the dynamite.

Nobody cares it's a jrpg.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

BioWare please have endings that make sense and are thematically consistent with your game. That is all.

You're asking for too much.

Modifié par Skelter192, 07 octobre 2012 - 03:11 .

[The Hierophant]

Skelter192 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Crono Trigger had ten endings and they were ALL fantastic. Some were dark, some were happy, some were bizarre.

If you chose to kill Magus, who you found was actually just doing all of the horrible things to prevent the real evil, Lavos, from destroying his home, then Frog turns back into a human. If not, then Magus can search for his lost sister (and you get an awesome spell caster in your party).

That seems like a pretty heavy weight choice, there. And they did it in 24-bits.


Boom goes the dynamite.

Nobody cares it's a jrpg.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

BioWare please have endings that make sense and are thematically consistent with your game. That is all.

You're asking for too much.

But those were actually good posts?

[Fast Jimmy]

Skelter192 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

snip  

Nobody cares it's a jrpg.

But... but...

...it was a SNES JRPG. The only time JRPG's became the bane of existence was after the Playstation came out... 

[Dave of Canada]

If I've learned anything over my years of browsing forums and my attempts of writing, people have no interest in literary themes or have any understanding over bittersweet. Anything which has any punishment is immediately regarded as "bad", ignoring everything else related to the conflict.

I mean, look at how many people which view "Destroy" as the only viable "happy" path in Mass Effect 3 or Dark Ritual in Origins simply because your protagonist/friends live. They don't care about the consequences of their decision or the thoughts behind them, they just want self-satisfaction of knowing they've gotten the "best" ending.

Lord knows how they'll react if the Dark Ritual bites them in the ass someday, potentially costing their future protagonist deeply--though I wouldn't be surprised if that simply prompted them to killing off Loghain or something, saying it's the new happy ending.

I think the writers know this considering how many threats I've seen on Tumblr and Twitter, some which are basically death threats if they can't live happily ever after with their waifu/husbano.

Though I'd say to continue doing the bittersweet (as that's mostly what the game's themes are), these people are going to do mental gymnastics to justify whatever endings they want whether or not it's shown ingame. 

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 octobre 2012 - 03:34 .

[LadyWench]

Honestly, DA2 wasn't at all what I would call a "happy" ending. But was it thematically interesting? Was it a climactic cliffhanger? Yeah, I thought so. Which is why it was still satisfying. Now, if Hawke had gotten blown to bits inside the Chantry, too...yeah, I guess that would have still been exciting, but way more depressing.

So maybe it's not so much a need for a "happy" ending as a balanced one. A situation that can be dramatic without seeming utterly hopeless and unfair to the player or the world in which the PC exists. Can still be tricky to achieve, but not impossible. DA:O and DA2 were very different games, but I thought the endings for both were appropriate given the context of their individual storylines and still left the player hopeful and wanting more.

Also, let's be objective: don't say it's not about ME3...if that whole "issue" hadn't happened, would this thread even exist? Really?

[Direwolf0294]

Happy ending please. I'm getting tired of the you die to save everyone/everyone dies to save you endings RPGs seem to be going for lately. They're not fun and are almost never well done.

[TheShadowWolf911]

i want my happy ending.

not that......abomination ME3 was......sorry writers, but that was just unacceptable.

If you feel the need to make everything really dark go the Suikoden route and make us TRULY work for a Happy Ending. (getting the True Ending in a Suikoden game can be pretty freaking difficult, especially if your not using a guide)

[deuce985]

Dave of Canada wrote...

If I've learned anything over my years of browsing forums and my attempts of writing, people have no interest in literary themes or have any understanding over bittersweet. Anything which has any punishment is immediately regarded as "bad", ignoring everything else related to the conflict.

I mean, look at how many people which view "Destroy" as the only viable "happy" path in Mass Effect 3 or Dark Ritual in Origins simply because your protagonist/friends live. They don't care about the consequences of their decision or the thoughts behind them, they just want self-satisfaction of knowing they've gotten the "best" ending.

Lord knows how they'll react if the Dark Ritual bites them in the ass someday, potentially costing their future protagonist deeply--though I wouldn't be surprised if that simply prompted them to killing off Loghain or something, saying it's the new happy ending.

I think the writers know this considering how many threats I've seen on Tumblr and Twitter, some which are basically death threats if they can't live happily ever after with their waifu/husbano.

Though I'd say to continue doing the bittersweet (as that's mostly what the game's themes are), these people are going to do mental gymnastics to justify whatever endings they want whether or not it's shown ingame. 

And people wonder why writing is so immature in gaming..

The day writing in games is respected literature is the day hell freezes over...

David and the other writers have to cater to this. Their audience isn't entirely people who read books. They play games. This undoubtedly makes them change their writing...

Modifié par deuce985, 07 octobre 2012 - 03:42 .

[jkflipflopDAO]

I played through origins 7 times and had a different outcome each time. That's one of the things that makes it a masterpiece.

And FFS whatever you do NOT MAKE THE ENTIRE STORY END ON A PIVOTAL CONVERSATION WITH A CHARACTER WE'VE NEVER MET. 

Modifié par jkflipflopDAO, 07 octobre 2012 - 03:49 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Still, there are gamers will go to great lengths to argue that they're preferred ending is the One True Correct one.

I think the fact that someone is willing to argue that their choice is the best one is still interesting. I think that in order to have this be a discussion requires, on some level, the endings to not have a clear optimal result.

(How people go about discussing said perspectives is another matter altogether).

I don't think there's any argument over what is the best ending for ME2, but DAO there is discussion about it due to some inherent uncertainty.